Caller Brings Theological Debate Over God's Role in Suffering | Matt Dillahunty + Mindshift Skeptic

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Jack calls in asking the hosts if the existence of suffering disproves an all-good God. The hosts contend unnecessary suffering appears incompatible with an omnibenevolent deity. Jack counters by questioning where to draw the line on allowable suffering, arguing some enables free will and personal growth. He uses examples like overcoming cancer and heartbreak. The hosts push back that an all-powerful God could allow growth through less horrific means than cancer.
They cite examples like r--e, genocide, and child cancer that seem gratuitous. Jack acknowledges the validity of their arguments but notes humans have limited perspective on the potential purpose of suffering. The hosts respond that their human perspective is the only one available to make judgments. While Jack finds merit in their points, he maintains skepticism about reaching definitive conclusions with incomplete knowledge. The call ends congenially with both sides giving thoughtful treatment to the philosophical problem of evil and God's responsibility for suffering.
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Опубликовано:

27 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 1,1 тыс.

@memecity9849 10 месяцев назад

If a person did a small fraction of what God in the bible has done, they would be charged for crimes against humanity

@jenniferhunter4074 10 месяцев назад

If a god did a fraction of what the god in the bible is alleged to have done, it would be charged for crimes against humanity. In fact, look at what the Christians did to Satan. Satan told the truth and the Christians have maligned that character's well.. good character. Satan told the truth to Adam and Eve and he's only linked to a handful of deaths (job's innocent family) and one could argue that he was following the Judeo-Christian god's commands. Contrast that with genocides and infanticides and human sacrifice just to name a few of this god's crimes against humanity. The differential is absurd.

@krenwregget7667 10 месяцев назад

not really since every American president since WWII is literally a war criminal and not a single one has ever faced any consequences for it.

@goldwhitedragon 10 месяцев назад

Are they crimes because they hurt your feels?

@memecity9849 10 месяцев назад

They're crimes because they cause suffering

@goldwhitedragon 10 месяцев назад

@@memecity9849 what's your definition of a crime?

@Bas-TB 10 месяцев назад

He didn’t wish cancer on his worst enemy, his god however seems complicit into giving it to him.

@G_Demolished 10 месяцев назад

Not to mention children.

@FourDeuce01 10 месяцев назад

Their bible says nothing happens without god knowing it. By extension, that means god allows everything to happen.

@spear_guy 10 месяцев назад

My late wife died from massive brain swelling as a complication from an inoperable brain tumour. No "free agency" involved. Her sister once said to me, wracked with guilt that she was convinced my wife would still be alive if she just prayed more. Go ahead and tell me religion is harmless.

@dion5804 10 месяцев назад

The guilt mechanism is one of the cruelest psychological techniques in religious ideologies.

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 10 месяцев назад

People often say, “I’m not hurting anyone so it’s ok to sin (lying, stealing, sexual sins, disrespecting parents etc)” The same God who said to love your neighbour first said to love Him to the best of your ability. If you carry on sinning, then you do not love God but are selfish like the devil so you will be joined to your father in hell or repent of your sins and believe in Jesus as God so Jesus adopts you as His child and you will join Him in Heaven forever.

@spear_guy 10 месяцев назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 First, that's some grade A cherry picking there, well done. Second, sin is a made up concept to scare people into believing in a made up god. Third, you're dumb and your mother dresses you funny.

@Furry-iousNews 5 месяцев назад

If you didnt tell that zealot where to shove a massive spikey log, you are a better person than me

@Furry-iousNews 5 месяцев назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 lying and stealing can READILY be demonstrated to harm someone else though...... So your falacious argument is DOA

@bulkvanderhuge9006 10 месяцев назад

Caller says he HATES SPOILERS, proceeds to SPOIL the entire movie "The Sixth Sense".

@BaronVonQuiply 10 месяцев назад

"He was the dead guy the entire time" spoils two movies in one shot 🙂 🪚👻

@c.guydubois8270 10 месяцев назад

Old movie...

@G_Demolished 10 месяцев назад

The wizard was just a man behind a curtain.

@Johnmhatheist 7 месяцев назад

The movie is as old as I am. Who cares?

@bulkvanderhuge9006 7 месяцев назад

@@Johnmhatheist For the people younger than you are, you know, everything doesn't center around YOU.

@Ichabod_Jericho 10 месяцев назад

I really hope Mindshift Skeptic chooses to accept all future invitations to co-host The Line and I also hope The Line chooses to invite him back frequently. Such a great counterpart to Matt & Jimmy

@SaintD382 10 месяцев назад

I love Brandon! He's super-smart and articulate. I've been watching his channel lately: awesome stuff!

@sebastep 10 месяцев назад

I agree. This show only needs matt, jimmy, this guy and Jmike. This is the absolute dream team. The cherry on top wound be the lady from ancient Atheist Experience shows what was her name? Something with T...Tracy I think. She was the BOMB - logic bomb, that is

@sonja4164 10 месяцев назад

I agree!

@sonja4164 10 месяцев назад

@@sebastepTracy Harris. I miss her in this setting.

@De_Selby 5 месяцев назад

@@sebastep Forrest also imo

@altriplett9099 10 месяцев назад

So… if a child’s parents played “hide and seek” neglecting their kid for days, weeks, months, years, you’re ok with that? 😅

@Dan_C604 10 месяцев назад

That point is very important. Believers tend to say god is a father for us but what you said is what I usually say, let’s compare it to a human father and you will quickly realize this god is a horrible monster!

@harveywabbit9541 10 месяцев назад

@@Dan_C604 The horrible monsters are the horrible monsters who invented the gods.

@pavel9652 10 месяцев назад

I tend to be more direct. The god in the bible engaged in planetary level genocide because of the alleged sins of one species. I often ask theists what their children would have to do (in terms of sin) to destroy them with everything they know and gaslight them blaming their fault, as loving parent? I never got a reply to this question. Theists seem to be so detached from reality in their beliefs that the question shocks them.

@Sweeti924 9 месяцев назад

@@harveywabbit9541prophet the best deceivers

@marikamoreau8828 7 месяцев назад

Theists usually say that we didn't pray or believe in the right way which is why we got left playing hide and seek. Which makes me tell a hypothetical story. Karen pushes little 9 year old lucy into a dry well. Lucys dad shows up and Lucy starts screaming at dad saying that he is worthless and that he won't be able to save her. She curses at him. Would the dad go read the paper or would he save his ungrateful child?

@TattooedGranny 10 месяцев назад

Mindshift Skeptic really added a lot today. I never listened to him before. Very smart, logical and had great examples. When I was a little kid I made a prayer challenge to god…let every child born be perfect and healthy around the world for just 7 days in a row. Still waiting on that one and in my 60’s now. And I moved toward science and nature at age 4 right after that last prayer. My atheism has never wavered.

@fancyAlex1993 10 месяцев назад

Atheism really makes us to be a better human because we rely on logic instead of make believe moral system

@biekgiek 10 месяцев назад

@@fancyAlex1993 Agreed. That, and we have to account for regulating our own actions based on how we interact with other people and the environment, here in this one life and one planet that we have.

@AbleAnderson Месяц назад

Except for the part where he cited Alex fucking O’Connor for long held, old, classic, ancient ideas within moral philosophy, as though Alex came up with them. That was embarrassing

@theeldritchfox 10 месяцев назад

"Failure of imagination" is such a great way to put it. I've had these kinds of talks with a former pastor of mine, and he usually defaults to saying that we need to experience hardships because they make life meaningful and make our successes more satisfying. "All the best stories have dramatic conflict that the characters need to overcome!" But he doesn't get that he's thinking inside the box of the world as it is. We could have been created in such a way that we find consistency and mundanity more compelling than dramatic conflict, and we could have been created fully capable of appreciating the good things in life without any need for contrast with the bad things.

@Leith_Crowther 10 месяцев назад

No, sir. All the most ENTERTAINING stories have dramatic conflict.

@zachrichardson5581 10 месяцев назад

Precisely. We could have been put into a universe in which we don't need to suffer hardships in order to appreciate things. We could just simply appreciate things fully without any pre requisite suffering at all. If God is all powerful he could make that reality.

@norrecvizharan1177 10 месяцев назад

I wouldn't necessarily say we need to experience hardships themselves, but I will admit, more challenging situations and problems tend to be the most mentally engaging and stimulating ones, which can sometimes lead to a self evolution of sorts. But generally speaking, things really shouldn't be exceedingly painful or traumatizing in order to be rewarding in the end, as that just defeats the purpose. It's kinda like the notion of physical exercise: tiny little tears in our muscles can lead to them healing 'n strengthening over time, but major injuries will undoubtedly leave permanent damage, so some challenge is okay as long as it's not heartwrenchingly stressful, or something like that.

@Sweeti924 9 месяцев назад

⁠@@Leith_Crowtherso that people can enjoy the dramatic document now let’s go to god I would say using your argument god is enjoying us suffering am I wrong? And also how would you even know he exist in the first place?

@Leith_Crowther 9 месяцев назад

⁠⁠@@Sweeti924What is my argument for God?

@UlexiteTVStoneLexite 10 месяцев назад

Why does God feel the need to make my dad go through cancer four times? Coming close to dying once wasn't enough? Why do you have to torture him and take away his cognitive functions for over a week leaving him to know that he can't get his brain to work correctly and experiencing more than half of the event? Did he have to go through that torture just so that he now has PTSD from it? Why did he have to take away all of his dignity and make him wither away after all the hard work he had put in to building up his muscles and exercising? Why is a torturing a man that still believes in him?

@darkstar4494 10 месяцев назад

Of course I get your indignation, but I can’t help responding.. we all waste away eventually. What’s the point of any of it for anyone, cancer or not? A theist can say your dad already achieved his purpose (maybe raising you), and this demise is the best one of the available possibilities. There’s always a way to squirm out of it. If suffering is gratuitous then “god works in mysterious ways” Of course for the atheist this is a much easier question to answer.

@coreymiller6717 10 месяцев назад

@darkstar4494 How would the theist demonstrate their beliefs? Is there good reason for a theist to push the points you made? It doesn't matter what someone is capable of saying. Can the theist demonstrate that their views are correct?

@coreymiller6717 10 месяцев назад

@darkstar4494 Could a theist sufficiently explain why it's acceptable for a God to give someone cancer 4 times and almost kill them? None of your examples are sufficient to me. This God is evil. Are your examples sufficient enough to demonstrate to you that the Christian God isn't evil?

@UlexiteTVStoneLexite 10 месяцев назад

@@darkstar4494 the end those are absolutely shity responses that they would be giving

@darkstar4494 10 месяцев назад

@@coreymiller6717 you are asking different questions. The theist explanation is sufficient and complete. It’s 100% airtight, which is easy to achieve when you can make up whatever you want. Why did you dad have to get cancer 4 times? “god works in mysterious ways” or “it’s serving some other greater purpose that you can’t understand. Don’t worry, it’s all part of gods plan”. Done. Airtight. No, there’s no reason to think it’s true, and no they can’t demonstrate it. Of course it’s not satisfying intuitively when you’re the one suffering. … then they follow up with “suffering in this life is a brief moment before spending eternity in paradise”. That should smooth everything over right? For many, this is deeply reassuring. Beliefs can have a huge effect on how you feel.

@tommyvictorbuch6960 10 месяцев назад

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus -

@marikamoreau8828 7 месяцев назад

This is the quote that took me from a friendly agnostic to an angry atheist. Or disgruntled theist like some would say 😂

@apokalypthoapokalypsys9573 Месяц назад

Still a sufficient argument against theism after all these centuries.

@jaydennguyen-xk1yo 8 дней назад

When I was Christian and heard this I would dismiss it with whatever default answer I had but when I stopped my bias I actually realize how good this quote is

@mariearce8021 10 месяцев назад

There were parts of this that truly hit home for me and many victims of trauma. When I hear anyone say that what happened to them made them stronger is absolutely not helpful support or empathy. Victims of crimes, just a portion of this, don't always become stronger. Even when they work hard to heal and cope with the damage, they may still have after affects for a long time. The question I would ask anyone, how do you explain to a child who is being abused, and they pray to god to stop it but god doesn't, only to hear someone say, it helped to make you stronger. That, in itself, is abusive. Religion itself can be very abusive. I Enjoyed this team very much, I watch your individual programs often. Thank you both.

@darkstar4494 10 месяцев назад

Some humans suffer and die and that’s it. So of course their suffering didn’t make them stronger or allow them to feel more pleasure. That’s when a theist will pivot to “god has a plan” “how can we possibly understand” “maybe in the big picture this is saving lives somehow”. Of course it’s easy to explain if there’s no god. Life’s not fair and there’s no intrinsic purpose.

@huguesdepayens807 10 месяцев назад

Oh stfu, what if it is helpful to some people? Only speak for yourself.

@kissit012 10 месяцев назад

The real thing that makes them stronger is the work they do to recover and heal, not being traumatized. I think people lack comprehensive communication and reasoning skills to effectively note the difference

@johns1625 5 месяцев назад

It's also gaslighting because there is no way to know how "strong" you would have been without it. It's dishonest.

@Goldenhawk583 5 месяцев назад

Some of us do feel stronger in the other end of it.. Waaaay on the other end, after having been at the absolute bottom., devastated by the pain and grief.. and then working and struggling for ages, even decades, to get back up and feeling good about life once more. I saw no chance of that when I was suicidal. Now I know what it is like. So, yes it is possuble to come out stringer, but not everyone does, it is not a default result, so it is not very good as a comforting thing at all. At best, knowing that some people actually do experience this, might bring some hope. Personally, when talking to any victim.. I listen ( because noone really listened to me), and then it depends , sometimes all I can offer is a hug, sometimes a bit more. The one think I CAN offer, is to be available, and being a sounding board when that is needed.

@elizmill96 5 месяцев назад

As someone who lost my mom to cancer when I was 21, I am disgusted at the notion that getting cancer benefits life (so long as you survive). What a grossly inappropriate thing to say

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 3 месяца назад

WHAT IS HE MEANING OF LIFE? To have a relationship with God on earth so you can spend eternity together in Heaven. So, what pushes me away from God? Sin (lying, unforgiveness, sexual sins from lust, dishonouring parents, steeling, taking the Lord’s Name in vain etc) which leads to hell. But Jesus died on the Cross and rose from the dead to give you the ability to repent and Believe in Him as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

@adam2aces 3 месяца назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363someone says their mom died of cancer and this is your grossly inappropriate reply. You are quite disgusting. Jesus said if you're a believer you can drink deadly poison and it won't hurt you. If you truly believe your BS scripture start drinking.

@Anonymousathiest 2 месяца назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363if you are talking to imaginary beings, that’s called schizophrenia, I’d advise you to go to the hospital!

@mikieemiike3979 2 месяца назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363All those sins are a result of living in a world that we did not create. If God loses even one soul, then He's not God. If there is a sin problem the problem is with the one who created the possibility (inevitability) of sin. Revelations says God will destroy death once and for all at the end. Yet, Ezekiel says that when the fountain of life comes out of the new temple animal sacrifices will be accepted for the Prince and his people. The Bible is bullshit. If Jesus and the Bible were real we would all be screwed.

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Месяц назад

@@mikieemiike3979 There is sacrifice in the milennial kingdom but not afterwards for eternity as there is no more death People sin from freewill and God provides forgiveness for them through Jesus . Jesus showed His love for you now you love Him back

@blade_warrior_blue 10 месяцев назад

Damn good to see these guys on the show together.

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 9 месяцев назад

All Humans need to repent & Believe in Jesus as their God. Why? Because all Humans have sinned (lied, lusted sexually, stolen, dishonoured parents etc). Avoid the fires of Hell (justice of God) and choose Heaven today. Jesus defeated death by rising from the dead. GOD IS HOLY

@apokalypthoapokalypsys9573 Месяц назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363No, YOU need to repent and worship Stendarr instead of whatever Daedric Prince you're preaching about.

@DHPersonal 10 месяцев назад

7:30 Why can’t we fly? Why were we not born with the capacity to breathe underwater? How come those limits don’t inhibit our free will? How come removing the ability to be awful to each other would suddenly be a limit too far?

@landsgevaer 10 месяцев назад

Good point!

@FourDeuce01 10 месяцев назад

Mysterious ways. That’s their Get Out of Jail Free card for all the holes in their fairy tale.😈

@adam2aces 3 месяца назад

I know I always say how come I can't jump to the moon and back or walk through the wall cuz there are limitations and yet supposedly there is still free will. These believers don't seem to realize they're out of excuses.

@norcodaev 10 месяцев назад

Nice to see Mindshift on the show again.

@slippyC73 10 месяцев назад

I think this is the show he was on about a month ago. I hope they have him back though.

@SaintD382 10 месяцев назад

This is the first time I've seen him on this show, I've been watching his channel lately.

@slippyC73 10 месяцев назад

@@SaintD382 Go back about a month and you'll see the whole show. It was around the time when Brandon was about to go on that vacation(he did about a week of pre-recorded shows and this show right before he left). I looked in the description to see if it had a link to the original show, but I didn't see one.

@johnzackarias11 Месяц назад

I like your profile pic! Are you a Bad Religion fan?

@norcodaev Месяц назад

@@johnzackarias11 Thank you, friend. Indeed I am. They’ve been my favourite band for close to 40 years now…and their logo makes a perfect pfp.

@Nymaz 10 месяцев назад

The caller brushed against divine hiddenness but then dismissed it saying God revealing himself would destroy free will. My question then is why did God hate Paul so much by giving him a vision of Jesus? What did God have against the disciples who saw Jesus in person? Adam and Eve walked around with God in the Garden. Abraham sat down with God for lunch. Jacob had a freaking wrestling match with God. Why was God so comfortable with removing all of those figures free will, and why did he change his mind now? Are we better than all those Biblical figures in that we don't deserve our free will taken away, but they did?

@grochek1 10 месяцев назад

Not to mention Pharaoh

@Fernando-ek8jp 10 месяцев назад

Yeah, it's the same thing as with the cancer discussion. That being said, he did admit that he's not a Christian so we don't know if he believes that god has appeared to anyone.. It's still a greta point though, since Christians do argue that

@isaoblack987 10 месяцев назад

If God revealing himself removes free will then Satan had NO CHOICE but to rebel against him.

@evangelicalsnever-lie9792 10 месяцев назад

Here's a technique I wrote, from my bag of checkmate tricks, anyone can copy, use, modify if they like: "I have a question about this presuppositional, so-called "god"… _…that you would have we, the supposed 'condemned and lost' unbelievers, to believe in…_ *Question:* Does this omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent presuppositional, so-called "god…" …that you want us to believe in… _…know…_ *…who* will go to "heaven"… …and _who_ will go to "hell"… *_👉 before_* 'he' "creates" each person? *It's yes or no. It does / is a tri-omni "Superstar" or does not know a truthful future* Which is it? *Checkmate.*

@slippyC73 10 месяцев назад

Yep, it is a very weak argument. If God doesn't want to influence free-will then why was hell ever brought up either?

@ntsokolomemani3874 10 месяцев назад

Why would a person go on and defend such horrible things? Religious people are unbelievable

@Jack-qz4sm 10 месяцев назад

I can't fathom their mindset one bit. I see the character of the Christian god to be absolutely horrific yet the Christian I know thinks he can do no wrong. Spending an eternity with him in heaven is something that can't come soon enough. the Christian I know does have a nice presence, kind etc however it's highly likely that an eternal reward is the reason for her helping the homeless, helping them to rebuild their lives. I used to speak to her once a week about her beliefs and rational thinking and Skepticism is completely out of the window. The indoctrination she has gone through has made her blind to reality. It's so sad

@ThatAtheist 10 месяцев назад

A theist who truly believes that their god is the example of goodness is funny geese to me.

@psychee1 10 месяцев назад

Yeah, it's a lot easier to justify a non-benevolent god than a benevolent one given the state of the world we live in.

@smithymcsmith8227 10 месяцев назад

Or an ambivalent God. Like, hey those cockroaches I made are having a tough time....weird.

@FourDeuce01 10 месяцев назад

@@aishabintabubakr4944 You make yourself lose credibility when you try to make excuses for a god(which you can’t even prove exists).🤡

@divinefreedom36 10 месяцев назад

Matt + Calm dude always = positive feels in the show.

@QuestionThingsUseLogic 10 месяцев назад

It's Brandon from Mindshift. It's great that they are on together!

@Omerta-33-EE 10 месяцев назад

@@QuestionThingsUseLogic Yeah Brandon is really gifted. He is a natural at this. I have been a sub of his for quite a while now and he always impresses me.

@QuestionThingsUseLogic 10 месяцев назад

@@Omerta-33-EE true! His incredible devotion and study of the bible initially has given him a fantastic base to work from! The best Atheists for Christians are those who really know what the bible says. I myself have gone onto studying and searching why the bible was written and who wrote it. My findings have totally satisfied my questions. Basically, it was to create slaves... mentally, emotionally, financially and practically. Good to be free though 🎉🎉🎉🎉

@SteveDeHaven 10 месяцев назад

I appreciate Matt dropping a Hitch line at 30:38: "You still have all of the work in front of you..."

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 3 месяца назад

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

@karenmiller6088 10 месяцев назад

Excellent! Love the Matt and Brandon team! ❤❤

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 3 месяца назад

@docdoc52 10 месяцев назад

My son got cancer at two and a half and died 18 cruel months later. Whose growth was that for? This caller makes no sense. Is there no other way to help us appreciate life?

@Nocturnalux 10 месяцев назад

I am sorry for your loss. And you’re absolutely right, claiming that extreme suffering and death is “growth” is cruel and inhumane.

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 10 месяцев назад

God is the epitome of Holiness because He is sinlessly perfect, A sinner (liar, sexually immoral, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, thief etc) cannot be in the presence of God or else he will be utterly consumed therefore repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour to go to Heaven.

@docdoc52 10 месяцев назад

I feel sorry for you. @@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363

@terrymoore6379 4 месяца назад

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 god creates men. Men sin. Therefore, god is responsible for sin.

@flyingpuma9729 3 месяца назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 You didnt referr to his question nor did you answer it, just put out the typical mantra. Lol

@outermarker5801 10 месяцев назад

"Is there free will in heaven" is a good question. Whatever comes after the judgement etc, is supposedly this forever paradise, new heaven and earth etc. Why? What will be different from Adam and Eve? Why will it never again be that 'iniquity is found' in any being as it was with Lucifer in heaven (and I guess whoever saw fit to join him)? Why will no one who was supposedly 'saved' ever again choose 'wrong'? What will be different about human 2.0? And why didn't the all powerful god do _that_ to begin with? The entire story of god and man as described by christianity seems more like a cosmic author discarding drafts as it tries to write the perfect book. Or Occam's Razor - we made it up. Like a young child makes up an imaginary friend, our young species created gods to explain what we don't yet understand and soothe our fears (including our fear of others who we must control or destroy to feel safe)

@fredbmurphy 10 месяцев назад

"You can't suffer in heaven... but tell me more about this free will".

@IllustriousCrocoduck 10 месяцев назад

Of this whole test of life that gets you there (or not). Most people's afterlife concepts are internally nonsense when they propose a god that is their friend.

@adam2aces 3 месяца назад

Oh, well we have free will to get to the place that God already knows we're going but the only way to get there is through free will. I hope that clears things up😂 Welcome to heaven did you like free will? Yes, it was nice being able "sin" like wearing clothing woven together of two different kinds of material and eating shrimp on occasion. Well there will be no free will here in heaven. Basically you'll be able to do a lot less things here in heaven and you're stuck here for eternity... enjoy😂

@fredbmurphy 3 месяца назад

Paragraph 2 definitely clears things up.

@runemanqwe 10 месяцев назад

My main issue is very similar to "why not heaven now". If the god posited is an omni god, why would we need to grow at all? The result is already determined. Any "growth" is moot, a trick.

@wax99 10 месяцев назад

Christianity is like as if you were suddenly hired to do a job that you never applied to and were given no instructions or directions, yet you will be fired if you mess up. Digging through, you find an outdated manual that kinda shows you what your responsibilities are, yet you look around and no one is doing what the manual says.

@FelisImpurrator 10 месяцев назад

And then they fire you for not following the book, but not the other guys who have been there longer.

@jillum89 10 месяцев назад

Those who advocate that suffering makes us better … like the caller did some 12 minutes in … they forget that they believe that there exists a perfect being who could not be improved upon in any conceivable sense, and this being didn’t have to suffer for even a second for that and they believe it could not suffer anything even in theory. They need to remember what they’re actually defending.

@MunkyDrag0n 10 месяцев назад

Buddhism had a way around this, but Abrahamic religions do not. Sad that in trying to outdo all other religions, the abrahamic ones became the most contradictory and difficult to defend

@Wilhelm-100TheTechnoAdmiral 10 месяцев назад

Why does a loving god allow for unskippable advertising on RU-vid?

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 10 месяцев назад

@zerocero5850 10 месяцев назад

It is so refreshing to hear a good faith discussion from a theist caller - thank you Jack.

@zerocero5850 10 месяцев назад

That is not to say you are right Jack.

@utes5532 10 месяцев назад

I thought he said he was an atheist?

@einyv 10 месяцев назад

Jack there is a difference between a child born with bone cancer that is needless suffering vs someone driving a car and some other human or they themselves causes an accident and ends up paralyzed.

@brt5273 10 месяцев назад

The theistic sycophants are either unable to comprehend it or are convinced that their delusional gaslighting makes it reality.

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Месяц назад

@einyv Месяц назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 good thing there is no God, no heaven, no hell.

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Месяц назад

@@einyv God through the Holy Spirit has shown me several things relating to the afterlife with the purpose of convincing people like yourself. Stuff like Heaven and Hell, Angels, and evil Spirits the Lord Jesus (not worthy at all), a miracle happened to me that saved my life (thank you God) & so much more. I am more than happy to give further details.

@einyv Месяц назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I don't need further details. I used to believe but ultimately realized the reason I believed was ignorance, indoctrination and just lack of knowledge of other disciplines until I took religious studies, psychology, environmental psychology, sociology, chemistry, biology etc. Simply no sufficient reason to believe any god exists, the "supernatural", miracles etc.. All are not real. I believe you think you experienced something. If you made you a better person great. I just don't think the reason is what you think of it because thousands of years and not a single piece of sufficient evidence to confirm any god exists. Religious book are claims not evidence. If any god exists and knows what would convince me of its existence but doesn't, only 2 possibilities exists. 1 it doesn't exist or 2 it doesn't care if I believe it exists, either way it's indistinguishable from a non existing God. Before you bring up free will that's a BS respons. I can 100% admit a god exists if given evidence and still free refuse to worship. (A perfect being wouldn't require it anyway).

@amandasunshine2 10 месяцев назад

My free will to fly wherever I want is already limited. I don't think hurting others is a necessary thing 🤷‍♀️

@bradhorowitz2765 10 месяцев назад

Jack, I do think you really do lose greatly (which I wish the hosts harped on,) when you said “ from my perspective, suffering made him better.” He then proceeded to say “well suffering is like having your heart broke from a girlfriend.” 1)Suffering has different definitions. Some may argue suffering is an unnecessary, overbearing, uncontrollable action that hurts someone. Some may say “breaking up with a girl IS NOT suffering.” Even if we agree that brekIng up is differing g (which again depends on the context), there might be different levels of sadness. Some levels are normal. You stub your toe, break your harm, end a relationship. Then we go higher, death of a loved one, financial debt that forced you to leave your home and beg for help, a day in court, facing an incurable disease, starvation, rape, genocide, political suppression, etc. 2)breaking up with a girlfriend may not be a teaching moment. We meet ppl at different stages, some matter more than others, some we forget. In fact, there are MANY ppl who dont recover after breaking up. Actions have different consequences for different ppl. Guys like Charles Whitman, son of Sam, Lee Harvey Oswald, Ted by day, school shooters, and Many more despicable ppl HAD relationship problems and those issues kept coming up for them-often convincing them to do unspeakable acts of evil. And to quote Boajck horseman and tuca and Bettie which some may absolutely agree with, “suffering didn’t make you better. It didn’t make you stronger. It JUST happened.”

@bradhorowitz2765 10 месяцев назад

disagree. the argument i was making that breakups can differ in their impacts. and what dosnt kill you may actually slowly eat you away. there are many ppl who dont move on from a failed romance, etc. And i was bringing up these individuals because they are in some cases a product of their environments and they (and many ppl who are simialr to them even if they dont commit crimes) may have simialr viewpoints. Afterall, how many ppl dont mature? dont learn? continue to double down? They may not be criminals but they are not acting as moral or as mature? YOu cited Nietz, id look at bojack horseman. A running theme of that show was that despite the repeated failures of the characters (mostly bojack) to have good relationships they usually tend to double down and act as the vitim.

@pandstar 10 месяцев назад

Mindshift is my new favorite YT atheist. I am an early subscriber.

@hazok4351 10 месяцев назад

Also, the immune system perspective metaphor is very unequivalent, because one, the cells don't have self awareness and don't "feel" pain, and two, the fact that an all powerful and all good designed simply couldn't have written the very rules and dynamics of how we deal with suffering is just a lack of imagination.

@landsgevaer 10 месяцев назад

I don't know whether cells "feel" pain or have some form of awareness. But then still it is a bad argument. An omnipotent god could have created an immune system that doesn't need all that chaos and destruction; or could have created beings that don't need an immune system even because they are never attacked by anything.

@hazok4351 10 месяцев назад

@@landsgevaer yeah, granted , that premise I put there is an assumption. We can't way for sure that cells don't feel what we call pain or suffering or have awareness, but I don't know of any evidence for them to have it, and we don't know of any experience of awareness or pain without a nervous system for the first and a brain for the latter, but I could be wrong. If he is willing to use the comparison proposing that cells feel pain and are aware as humans, he should prove that they do and are.

@landsgevaer 10 месяцев назад

@@hazok4351 I don't know of any way to assess whether something has sentience. The fact that we only know of sentience to exist in some things-with-brains says zero about things-without-brains (i.e. a brain may be sufficient to have sentience, but that doesn't make it necessary). The brain is mostly adequate for something to be responsive, as far as I know; but plants and fungi and computers are responsive too, and I know no method of determining whether they have some form of sentience/awareness/consciousness. But indeed, this is just a side-note that isn't meant to defend the caller. The burden is upon him to provide evidence, I fully agree.

@queezle4277 10 месяцев назад

Its excellent that they gave this caller free rein to perfectly display the kind of perverse thinking rhat religion causes. It is exactly what people need to see and understand about the so called "good" xtians

@RoozleDoozle-9210 10 месяцев назад

I think that our understanding that eternal perfection and pleasure without any suffering somehow losing a certain value just reveals our own perceptions, with us stuck in this reality, that illustrates the absurdity of an all good god.

@bowmoneydrums 10 месяцев назад

love this cohost

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 10 месяцев назад

@seanwhat6 7 месяцев назад

Yo what the hell man. I was planning on watching the 6th sense this weekend.

@buonafortuna8928 10 месяцев назад

Wow MD and MS make a really great team, and that was an apparently genuine, honest albeit slightly muddled caller.

@Renee-bk4fl 2 месяца назад

He said god could take away evil and not take away free will doesn’t make sense to him??? How ridiculous 🤦🏽‍♀️ the amount of people that believe we have actually free will in this society is beyond me.

@0Fyrebrand0 10 месяцев назад

He says if God revealed himself to us, it would be like "spoiling the end of a movie." Uh, if the consequence of me not figuring the movie out by the end is that I'm tortured for eternity in Hell, I don't mind if you spoil it for me.

@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong 10 месяцев назад

What a team!!!!!

@Steve-Cross 10 месяцев назад

Our pain receptors are there to protect us. Matt used touching a hot surface as an example. If we didn’t have the pain receptors, we have. We would do more damage to ourselves. We may not move fast enough away from the heat source, so instead of a small blister, we would get third-degree burns or worse. So a low pain threshold is evolutionary advantageous. Just saying. 🙂

@francelaferriere6106 10 месяцев назад

"He" could have made us with a more resistant skin if "He" is so powerful and capable of doing great things. But "He" didn't because "He" either doesn't care or doesn't exist.

@zachrichardson5581 10 месяцев назад

Why does that pain have to last? Why does that damage have to last? Why can't it simply be momentary, we acknowledge it was painful and therefore dangerous, and then we immediately heal up and move on with our lives?

@Steve-Cross 10 месяцев назад

@@zachrichardson5581 I suppose it depends on the damage. Sometimes the pain is only fleeting. I wouldn’t say any pain lasts. Maybe if you don’t get it treated it will take longer to heal and maybe even become infected, but that’s up to you.

@agiraffe3673 8 месяцев назад

@@zachrichardson5581why can’t we grow back limbs like lizards? If god made the lizards and made us, why didn’t he give us this ability?

@simonditomasso9868 5 месяцев назад

@@Steve-Crosssome ppl have uncurable chronic pain. What is the “lesson” to learn from that pain?

@arthurunknown8972 10 месяцев назад

Until you prove your god exists, I'm not interested in discussing what this nonexistent entity can or can't do & why.

@diogeneslamp8004 10 месяцев назад

Exactly. First things first.

@Diviance 10 месяцев назад

@@diogeneslamp8004 I would say the first thing would be proving a deity existing is possible. Weird that nobody has ever done that.

@diogeneslamp8004 10 месяцев назад

@@Diviance It is funny how so many put the cart before the horse, taking existence for granted. I imagine it’s a splash of cold water in the face for them to be asked to do the thing properly.

@TheMNbassHunter 10 месяцев назад

I personally agree with Matt that the problem of evil or suffering is not a good argument for or, particularly, against a god. While I'm an atheist, one concept of a god that I can at least entertain is the one in which that god is evil. I think an evil god far better explains our reality than an all-loving god. I will maintain that the problem of evil / suffering is pretty much a nail in the coffin for me with respect to Christianity. I also find it exceedingly more interesting and meaningful if we are an "accident" of the universe. When I think of the countless fortunate events over the course of billions of years that led to the propagation of our species and us as individuals, I'm absolutely blown away. Just image how many individuals had to procreate and pass on their genes to get to the next generation, and the next generation, and the next generation, and the next generation, and so on and so on for millenia to get to you. It is absolutely incredible. The alternative is that we are just the product of the ejaculate from a sadistic, supernatural being's wet dream. Put here for its' entertainment.

@mabatch3769 10 месяцев назад

It’s works fine as an argument against an omnibenevolent omnipotent god. I’m not aware of any Christians that believe god is evil. Edit: oh sorry, you did say it’s a nail in the coffin for Christianity. I agree.

@Texanewarace 3 месяца назад

This caller is absolutely amazing in his speculations. His knowledge is profound and appreciable.

@n0etic_f0x 3 месяца назад

This caller and I are on the same page. To believe in the Christian god you would have to have, no chronic sickness or pain, no ability to violate the consent of others, no hunger or thirst, no depression, no loneliness, and no lack of shelter at the bare minimum.

@andrewferg8737 9 месяцев назад

"it did for one wild moment cross my mind that, perhaps, those might not be the very best judges of the relation of religion to happiness who, by their own account, had neither one nor the other” (G.K. Chesterton)

@UlexiteTVStoneLexite 10 месяцев назад

Our immune systems are not great! My immune system is overreacted causing me to have allergies. I get incredibly itchy teeny tiny blisters all over my hands and feet because of allergies. Some people's immune systems are over react and they literally destroy that person! But you've got psoriasis and MS. Then you have the immune system not being good enough and allowing cancerous tumors to grow and develop and take over a person's body until it slowly kills that person. Our immune systems are not great and this is an absolutely terrible terrible example.

@Diviance 10 месяцев назад

Yeah, our immune systems are a prime example of evolution. They work _just well enough_ to improve our chances at survival, but not well enough to really be good. If someone intentionally designed our immune system the way it was, when they had literally no physical constraints or material limitations or resource limitations... then either that designer is as dumb as a brick... or it really doesn't like us.

@MrAgnosticman 7 месяцев назад

The problem of evil isn't a situation to negotiate that you can go back or forth on to solve the problem. It's a response to a claim that god is good. There wouldn't be a "the problem of evil" argument if the god claim was that god is evil or doesn't care, or there isn't a god at all. Child leukemia is more rational in a world without a god, or a god that is evil or is completely impartial/hands off to human suffering. The latter arguments would lend to the idea of a god not worthy or worthwhile to worship.

@bigheadslim 10 месяцев назад

I really enjoyed this conversation

@kissit012 6 месяцев назад

What lesson does the mother who risked her life and permanently altered her body learn from the death of that child? They never think about that even once

@Itswayningout 10 месяцев назад

I've always been under the impression that we have pain so we don't cut ourselves into threads in the name of fashion 😅 12:44 and by the way I enjoyed listening to the new guy 🎉

@riffhammeron 10 месяцев назад

Some ignore the pain and do exactly that

@Itswayningout 10 месяцев назад

@@riffhammeron true

@Diviance 10 месяцев назад

@@riffhammeron Some like the pain.

@johnbrophy6159 7 месяцев назад

Why does God always honor the freewill of rapists over the freewill of their victims? That child didn't want to be raped, and presumably cried out for help. And yet God denies the child's will to escape. And if the child survives, they are plagued by a host of other psychological traumas that their freewill cannot exorcise, such as nightmares and PTSD for years to come or even permanently. How they wish that they could be free of this psychological burden, and yet God does not honor their will to forget.

@einyv 10 месяцев назад

Free will is such a BS response for needless suffering or for God in general. I could be given the evidence i need to believe it exists and still not worship it. 2 s different things. There is no god, that's why there simply no sufficient evidence it exists.

@iSkulk 10 месяцев назад

Great call!

@suelingsusu1339 10 месяцев назад

What about the worm that burrows in the eyes of its victims and blinds them... is that the same as breaking up with a boyfriend? Apologists for the problem of evil are not just failing in their imagination of what a "god" can do... they are failing in heir understanding of what it means to suffer since they have never actually suffered other than the "strife" of being the rich and privileged.

@LemuelDunleavy 7 месяцев назад

Brooo! I had no idea that Brandon goes on The Line! Nice to see it!

@nikczemna_symulakra 2 месяца назад

What a healthy polite conversation you've got here..

@JayMaverick 10 месяцев назад

So 30 minutes in and we got "Suffering is good for you because god works in mysterious ways." How absolutely brainwashed this poor guy is.

@nathanhachey 10 месяцев назад

Although I don't agree with everything the caller said, he was one of the smartest, most honest and aware callers I've heard on this show. I think the lack of outburts from Matt reflects that. It made for an interesting discussion.

@cambriaofthevastoceans6721 10 месяцев назад

Maybe if he hadn't circled around to the all or nothing strawman that they addressed multiple times. That wasn't smart or honest.

@slippyC73 10 месяцев назад

@@cambriaofthevastoceans6721 Yea, I was waiting for Matt to fly off the handle. That's one thing I really liked about this convo, think Brandon's demeanor and the way he answered the questions led to a less aggressive conversation. Matt kinda went with the flow. It concerns me sometimes when I watch this channel how Theist may walk away with the wrong impression of Atheists or Agnostics. Matt is a really bright, wise and knowledgeable guy. Sometimes his remarks and the way he responds isn't exactly the most polite though(rightly so at times).

@landsgevaer 10 месяцев назад

That just means that most other theists are even more irrational or dishonest in their arguments. Siberia has the most pleasant weather. Compared to other places that have worse weather. But you still don't go on a summer holiday there.

@nathanhachey 10 месяцев назад

@@slippyC73 Agreed. Matt is super respectful and open minded, but when people are unreasonable and try to turn a discussion into a monologue, you can't blame a guy for being impatient. And personally I love hearing him say the things I wish I could say to people when we have similar conversations. But when they're co-workers or family members, sometimes you have to pick your battles and bite your tongue.

@nathanhachey 10 месяцев назад

@@cambriaofthevastoceans6721 For sure, but where most callers on this show avoid questions and deflect everything being said, this guy answered questions and addressed the points being made. It shows that even if someone brings flawed arguments, there can still be a pleasant (and potentially eye-opening) discussion.

@UhOhDovah 9 месяцев назад

The surprise I had when this caller actually asked how Matt and mindshift are doing. Most theist callers will just immediately jump in

@visforvegan8 10 месяцев назад

He's so dense

@bobbybailey4623 8 месяцев назад

People should consider that if god created all things, he could not condemn good or evil without condemning himself. God having regret doesn’t change the punishment he deals out.

@jadistucker2073 10 месяцев назад

I think the main issue with this sort of thinking is, 1. Its super small minded and unimaginative. You can say all you want that suffering makes you appreciate life more and that it grows you as a person but that's in our current paradigm. If you're god and you get to decide how the universe works, you can make it so that people just naturally grow as people and grow in character just by aging or by experiencing things. If you get to build the system from the ground up, and you choose to make it so that suffering is what makes people better or stronger, I don't think it's unreasonable to say you're not good. 2. It assumes this kind of karmic, well, everything happens for a reason and everything that happens to you is just to make you a better person, and, honestly, if anyone's willing to tell me that being trafficked at six years old was just to make me a better person or make me stronger, than I think they're too horrifically morally bankrupt to have a conversation with.

@francelaferriere6106 10 месяцев назад

"He" could have made us with a more resistant skin if "He" is so powerful and capable of doing great things. But "He" didn't because "He" either doesn't care or doesn't exist.

@nickgr8artist 8 месяцев назад

I think the argument for "there's more suffering in the world than joy" or whatever is that there's almost nothing which can bring us joy without an investment of greater suffering. The cute, comfortable clothes that make you feel good were made in a sweat shop overseas. The food that fills your belly and brings contentment was made by people trapped in underpaying jobs. The inventions we use to live in comfort are made from materials taken from the earth in many unhealthy and unsustainable ways. Even the money we make, which allows us to live happy lives, is only acquired through a disproportionate amount of work and effort, or else by cheating other people to take their wealth. There's very little a person can do that brings joy without also bringing suffering. When Matt says he doesn't think the world has more suffering than joy, it seems like he's overlooking the plight of laborers elsewhere.

@bubbercakes528 8 месяцев назад

If when you die you go to heaven where all is beauty and light, why can’t we have that now? Why did he decide to make us suffer first. What about the free will of children with cancer or women who were raped? What about my free will when at 36 I developed bipolar disorder?

@rossbingbong 7 месяцев назад

What if you didnt revover from cancer? Or what if you stayed frozen in the most painful part of having cancer/treatment. Some illnesses out there dont get better they stay frozen in pain / illness with many taking their own lives. What are people suposed to get out of that??

@smolderingtitan 10 месяцев назад

Based on life experience, I think that if there was a lower level of suffering, people would complain about that level of suffering and think it should be an even lower level. It's hard to say if there was a level that people would say "this level is low enough to not contradict a benevolent, all-knowing and all-powerful God." The idea of "necessary suffering" and "unnecessary suffering" is weird to me because if God is the planner of the whole shebang then nothing is necessary or unnecessary until everything is created.

@bitwise2832 8 месяцев назад

The problem of evil is that some people believe it comes from some entity.

@melissabellemare7416 Месяц назад

One of my main problems with the free will argument is God chucked people to different parts of the world and confused the languages after the Tower of Babel. Then we don't hear anything about these people again. He just ripped families apart and abandoned some of them in completely foreign places. Where's their free will? They developed cultures and new God's and yet will burn in the lake of fire for eternity for not loving and accepting a God that abandoned their ancestors long ago. They'll be punished for God's decision and no fault of their own. God gave free will but will punish those who don't use it how he wants. I have a uterus and suffer every month and am deemed impure by the very God who supposedly gave it to me. Did I have a choice? No. Neither do children born into abusive or impoverished families or with disabilities. Life is predetermined due to circumstances and they have no free will.

@ianbraun271 10 месяцев назад

This guy Jack, comparing CANCER to HEARTBREAK.

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 10 месяцев назад

@ianbraun271 10 месяцев назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Yeah, but since GOD made us this way, he could simply forgive us our sins. Instead, he chooses to send those who are unconvinced of HIS existence to eternal torment. SUCH A LOVING GOD!

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 9 месяцев назад

@@ianbraun271 Part of God's nature is Holiness so He cannot be in the presence of sinners forever He will utterly consume them with His majesty I hope you have a great year (rest of it) but remember if the world gets dark that Jesus is the light of the world and can comfort you in this life and the next. When you repent and Believe in Jesus you will only regret that you didn’t sooner. Romans 10: 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

@rightpa 4 месяца назад

Matt nearly hit the nail on the head when he talked about a lack of imagination on the part of humans. Is it possible for a tri-omni god to create a reality in which there is free will and no suffering that still accomplishes his goals for humanity? If not then that god is not tri-omni.

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 4 месяца назад

All Humans need to repent & Believe in Jesus as their God. Why? Because all Humans have sinned (lied, lusted sexually, stolen, dishonoured parents, unbelief etc). Avoid the fires of Hell (justice of God) and choose Heaven today. Jesus defeated death by rising from the dead. GOD IS HOLY

@rightpa 4 месяца назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 No they don't, no they haven't, no there isn't, no he didn't, no he isn't.

@maniakzer0178 10 месяцев назад

I cannot lisen to this dude anymore i'am halway into this video. Hosts constantly talking about UNNECESSARY SUFFERING and he constantly is going back to "nessesary suffering for appreciation" it's like he ignores them constantly.

@ZenWithKen 10 месяцев назад

Given the power of a god, would you prevent a child from dying in a car accident? If you answer yes, then you have identified the issue. You don't get ride of cars because children dies in traffic accidents. You stop the accident that kills the child from killing the child. The accident still happens. Free will is not removed from the equation.

@scamchan 9 месяцев назад

Just the idea people claim a GOD can do anything and see in reality that he doesn't speaks volumes about who is worthy of worship.

@trufflesrheaven 6 месяцев назад

Very good call

@aankwenti 10 месяцев назад

This crazy idea that god could have a good reason for allowing excessive suffering is just another form of the infamous "mysterious ways" copout.

@Mitch-MD 8 месяцев назад

Isn’t concluding this is most likely the only life we have enough of a “lesson to learn”? Makes this life so much more valuable than eternal life?

@David-j8v5p 3 месяца назад

Rabbi Tovia Singer: We've got a plan to stop Chuck but we need your help Amara

@H-TownGamer 4 месяца назад

The issue with eliminating suffering is it does eliminate free will. When we cry it’s a form of suffering but can be one of the most beautiful experiences. If there was no suffering and I couldn’t hurt my knee from trying a fun skating trick or have the experience of crying. I would be limited on my freedom of existence to only “good” things. There is cancer but there is also heart attacks why isn’t that eliminated too? You would have to remove every aspect of life as we know it to have a world without evil. No death, no hurting emotions, no pain, no lust (sexual freedom) you would just be born good human robots essentially

@rizdekd3912 4 месяца назад

Have you ever helped someone in need? Did it eliminate their free will? If you believe in heaven, will the happy occupants have free will?

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 4 месяца назад

@@rizdekd3912 All Humans need to repent & Believe in Jesus as their God. Why? Because all Humans have sinned (lied, lusted sexually, stolen, dishonoured parents, unbelief etc). Avoid the fires of Hell (justice of God) and choose Heaven today. Jesus defeated death by rising from the dead. GOD IS HOLY

@rizdekd3912 4 месяца назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 "All Humans need to repent & Believe in Jesus as their God. Why? Because all Humans have sinned (lied, lusted sexually, stolen, dishonoured parents, unbelief etc). Avoid the fires of Hell (justice of God) and choose Heaven today. Jesus defeated death by rising from the dead. GOD IS HOLY" But all humans won't and not all humans will even have the opportunity to 'repent and believe' and even some of those who do repent and believe will not enter the Kingdom, per Jesus himself. And stack that on top of his claim that he spoke in parables so only those on the inside will hear and understand and understanding, repent, while those on the outside (like you and me) will not hear and understand and so the word will fall on rocks and die.

@dm8053 2 месяца назад

Damnit the last thing i expected was to get sixth sense spoiled to me.

@zpd8003 10 месяцев назад

If evil and suffering are supposed to teach us something, then the almighty god could just give us that knowledge without making us go through the suffering. Or he doesn't exist.

@seanmcghee2373 10 месяцев назад

If God created evil and also knows what the outcome of just about everything is and also does nothing about it ("miracles" notwithstanding), then he did it so he could watch something in his spare time...casual evil at it's apex

@_Mr.Black_ 8 дней назад

Hey at least this caller was good. He didn't manage to piss matt off

@isveryniceyes 10 месяцев назад

Hear me out regarding free will and suffering: We can't fly like superman. Yet nobody is arguing that we lack the free will to do so, it's just an impossible thing to do. Therefore, God could make it impossible to suffer and we would still have "free will", the laws of nature would just be such that suffering doesn't or can't happen.

@simay4977 8 месяцев назад

For me, the PoE is more about the morality of the people who worship said god. If I post on twitter that I'd remove cancer if I was god, I always have Christians coming back to me arguing against it. It's so bizarre.

@amandajones661 5 месяцев назад

If I find out there really is an all powerful god, I'm going to be so angry with God because of the suffering.

@agiraffe3673 8 месяцев назад

26:35 😵 this is the plot of the Rocket Raccoon back story movie 🍿

@Jayell61 10 месяцев назад

Great discussion with my two favorites on RU-vid right now! I'm a newer deconstructionist!

@panqueque445 6 месяцев назад

28:30 I agree that a superior intelligence to ours might have a bigger picture that he can understand and we can't. But the issue is that if there is a reason for why suffering is necessary, god made us too stupid to understand it. If there really is a good reason for all this suffering to exist, then we're not smart enough to understand it, and since god made us that way, knowing we wouldn't get it, he can't get mad when we question it.

@andrewferris6239 6 месяцев назад

I was thinking of the Greenland sharks losing their vision to parasites on Matts run-up to this then he produces that nightmare fuel.

@grimm2626 10 месяцев назад

My problem with the argument of free will with respect to crimes of SA or murder is that why does free will favor the criminal? When you’re dealing with magic, there’s no need to follow any reason, so free will could just as easily favor the would-be victim. Then crimes would all be “Attempted”.

@followthewolves1991 5 месяцев назад

If god can create heaven which, depending on your interpretation, seems to be a place of no suffering yet contains free will(satan was able to rebel) then why couldnt he do that on earth?

@Andrea-cq6eg 4 месяца назад

the crosover we needed but didn't deserve

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 4 месяца назад

@Oswlek 9 месяцев назад

God must live the least satisfying life ever. No obstacles to grow from, no suffering to help him appreciate the finer points in life. No wonder he needs constant worship and adulation.

@Specialeffecks 10 месяцев назад

Some Christians claim they have a relationship with Jesus. If my relationship with my wife was exactly like Jesus's relationship with those Christians appears to be, my wife would be justified in divorcing me. She'd say: "He never even shows up" (among many other things absent - that are basic for any heathy relationship), then she'd leave.

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 10 месяцев назад

@uncleanunicorn4571 2 месяца назад

Other than not having built-in worm-eating-eyeball suffering, a god could have made different rules so we grow into what he wants without anything that would violate his nature. If this god exists, his nature is for a crap-ton of pointless suffering.

@FourDeuce01 10 месяцев назад

One of the funniest claims of religious apologists is when they say god never gives us more than we can handle.🤤

@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 10 месяцев назад

@asagoldsmith3328 9 месяцев назад

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363what is a reasonable punishment for "disrespecting a parent" whatever that means? Please enumerate some specific "sexual sins" and explain why they are wrong.