This episode explains the two main factors that determine how thin a guitar neck should be. I also offer a cool tip for safely carving a guitar neck by hand.
Thanks for another nice video. And you are right. A typical 1/8" x 3/8" CF rod doesn't really have much more stiffness than the timber that's been removed in its place. The reason I use CF in my bass necks is not for stiffness, but for strength and stability. I use rods that are long enough to extend under the nut and through into the headstock by 40-50mm. This increases the strength of what is certainly the weakest part of the neck. (All repairers have to glue back broken peg heads at times, and this is where they break.) It also helps to future-proof bass necks against the "dip" at the 12th/13th and the 1st fret "kick-up" that most will have after 10 years or so. You speak in such a measured and thoughtful way. I always look forward to your new content. Cheers!
I mod ebay necks for my builds. I thickness them down to about 20mm including the fingerboard - heel and all. I've cut into a few truss rod cavities. If it's not too deep, it's only cosmetic. 17mm seems to be the long term failure point. Unless you cut that deep, it will hold up long term under tension. Never had issues with necks bending due to thickness. I've made necks from carbon fiber tubes that don't bend at all and don't need a truss rod. I wouldn't be surprised if square carbon fiber bar stock of similar cross-sectional area is not as stiff as a carbon fiber tube.
Thanks, this was great. I woke up with this on my mind the last 2 days. Made coffee and learned everything my curiosity was asking. I’m making my 2nd Stratocaster and was thinking of going with a thin neck. Your help rerouted me to stay away but making it “Feel” thin with the fretboard trick. Thank you-Luth On!
Nice video! The carbon fibre rods work a whole lot better when they are deep. What I mean is, the width of a carbon fibre rod is insignificant compared to how deep it is. Some people might use a 1/4" X 1/4" rod....that's not nearly as effective as using a rod that's only 1/8" wide but 3/8" deep. The difference in the modulus of elasticity is increased by orders of magnitude. Look at an I-beam....same principle.
I started playing when I was 4 or 5, and I'm 34 now so I've been playing for almost 30 years...for 29 of those years I couldn't find a thin enough neck. I even filed all my main player guitars necks down into a trapezoidal profile (to help leave room for the truss rod) and I adored it. Then I bought a guitar last year that has literally the thickest neck I've ever played on but it is so comfy that I don't even use any of my other guitars any more (for anyone wondering it is a Dean AR6 USA, 1 of 5 made - #3 so it is kind of excruciatingly rare) the funny thing is I hate pointy guitars and ML shaped guitars but it plays so well I can't put it down.
I accidentally took my Kramer neck down too low, exposing some of the truss rod and it still works fine. I agree with this video but I will say, a partially exposed rod is not the end of that guitar. IMO.
Thanks Chris, Makes sense to back figure the depth to ensure you have a .25 left so the truss rod doesn't poke through... Thanks for sharing your tips bud! 🎸🎸👍👍👍
Amazing content as always! I'd like to ask..how do you go about calculating the depth of a neck pocket? There is not a lot of videos out there (if any) that explain how deep a neck pocket should be. Looking on the interwebs a lot recommend a standard depth of 5/8 which I find that cannot be applied to all situations as a rule of thumb. I've come across some posts which explain that you should take into account your overall neck heel and fretboard thickness and the type of bridge you are using (saddle height etc). For us (entry level luthiers) it would be great if you could shed some light on this topic as I believe knowing "why, and how things work" is better than simply following "standards".
I had to build a really ridiculously thin neck for a client so I routed the truss rod slot into the bottom of the fretboard and the neck. That 1/16" going up into the fretboard really helped!
Fanner Guitar Works I am currently mid way then this exact thing to make a stable and thin neck for a customer! Glad to hear someone’s done it and it works
Hey Chris, in '19 I built an octave mandolin without a truss rod. I used indian rosewood strips, and another stiff wood, I don't remember what, right now - quarter sawn on edge, glued between a flamed maple neck that was very hard, not typical soft curly maple. I put in two carbon fiber rods as well. This mando uses strings I consider a bit heavier than some builders might use. I was having trouble with the G strings being too "floppy". It's been tuned up to standard pitch since I strung it. The neck has not developed any underbow from string tension. The two CF rods I believe helped with no underbow, since there is no truss rod. If and when I ever build any other mando, I will use CF rods. A truss rod, installed incorrectly, will do nothing to counteract underbow. Some will tighten a truss rod nut to the point of snapping the threads, rendering the whole thing useless. If you don't think a mandolin needs a truss rod, as I and other luthiers do, one had best anticipate the need for strength in the wood in the first place. I don't know how much CF contributes to overall stiffness, but it can't but help, in my opinion. Bob in Montana. ( Ex Flatiron neck assembly dude for several years in the ' 90s -- we used truss rods, as the majority of our necks were either curly maple or mahogany. Neither laminated, nor very stiff.)
Very nice....I have also found that the CF rods don't really have add enough strength to the neck to make them worth using.......I'd like to know where you found your CnC machine, and how much it cost......I know from a lot of your previous videos that you are patient in looking for the best tools for the price, and since your guitars are of better quality than most, it does an exceptional job......and do you have a website to sell your product, or is it through word of mouth?......Thnx for all the awesome and very informative videos you make for your fellow Luthiers!!
Are these minimums also applicable to bass necks or should they be a bit thicker? Especially 5 and 6 string basses? I would also I'd be using a 5 pc maple walnut platform.
I have an Ibanez with a Wizard 3 neck and a 0.13 to 0.70 strings set on! This video is an explanation of why I can't explain why it is stable and holds the tuning for a week straight!
5/8th of an inch (15.87mm) that's even thinner than the Ibanez Wizard necks...thinnest maybe 17mm NICE! Do you give a bit more thickness based on the neck profile? Different cross sections take quite some material on the sides. I've seen those weird tubes you mentioned a while back...so pricy. I'd rather experiment with outside layers. All the tension is on the outside, that's why Parker's necks work with that really thin carbon-glass-fibre mix. Lots of trial&error to get it right. At least atm, I like thin necks cause I don't hang on top with my thumb. I'd love to try those trapezoid-spline-ish forms...meat on top for the thumb players but free space below to ease bending. Maybe fool around with it when you got a spare neck. Thx for the drill tip. I'm still using those bendable japanese rulers and check a lot.
To find out whether carbon rod is going to work with your choice of wood: cut exactly the same size rod out of the wood that you going to use, try to bend it, and compare it to the carbon rod.
Great vid! What are your thoughts on 3 and 5 piece laminated necks? Do you think they are stiffer/stronger if laminated with Rosewood, Ebony or Cocobolo?
There is no convincing evidence that supports or condemns the practice of making laminated necks. I will only make them if asked to. Frankly, you just can't beat a quartersawn, straight-grained slab of Eastern Rock Maple. Super stiff and just the right weight.
Hi I'm not a lutherie (not even close) but I really learned a lot from your video. I wanted to ask you how sensitive is a guitar player to the thickness of the neck? For instance, if one plays a neck that is 19 mm in the 1st fret to 21 mm in the 12, would one feel the difference when playing a neck that is 20 or 21 mm in the 1st fret and 21.5 or 22 mm in the 12 fret? ( I know it might be different between individuals but please relate to the general case of players). Another thing, is a neck that is 20mm in the 1st fret to 22mm in the 12 fret considered a thin neck? (All measurements including the fret board) Thanks in advance for your answers.
I play an Ibanez and love its neck! But yes a guitar neck could be too thin I suppose. To point it was not made right and twist and warp easy. Ok now I watched you video after the first half of my comment. I always enjoy watching your videos, even though I pretty much knew already. I still like listening to your knowledge. But hey, one day I would love to play one of the guitars you make to see how they feel and sound.
I've seen a few necks without a taper, so their thickness at the 1st and 12th are the same. Do you have any thoughts about that? I guess it's going for a certain feel, but are there strength concerns? Or maybe concerns about how the neck will bow up under string pressure?
Just bought a ultra- thin C neck guitar from schecter C-6 Pro FR... but after then I found that the neck maybe too thin and too slippery which hard to bend string as usual... how can I make the neck less slippery?
YES it can..i bought an Epiphone elisist es-335 guitar and the neck was wayy too thin.. it was ridiculous how much it was moving the pitch when i went just from right to left on stage.. there must have been about 1/2 in. of material under the nut and 1-2nd frets .. if you remove the thickness of the rosewood fingerboard.. sold it..
I purchased a 2014 Ibanez Paul Stanley model Iceman guitar, not because of him necessarily, I just have always wanted a black Iceman and the Paul Stanley signature model was the only one available. Now I will say that it was from watching Paul Stanley using an Iceman on stage that got me to notice the guitar and want one lol. Anyway - the neck is way too thin! I can hit a chord and by holding the strings down I can turn my wrist a little and bend the neck! I make this thing sound as though it has a whammy bar when it doesn't just by pulling back on or pushing away the neck lol. It holds tune pretty good,although the low E can sometimes fight me to stay in tune.
i have to learn inches etc again, born in the uk in 67 i think we switched to metric mid eighties... for me the thinnest a neck should be is about 19mm.. i made a guitar recently with a thick neck.. at first i didnt like the thickness off it but its grown on me and as you say its stable
Aevo Guitars My old J- 50 from '64 had the best neck I've ever played on. So many other high priced guitars have necks that are not only too think, but they are too wide as well. They are apparently mahogany wood. This makes them difficult to play, I have found. As far as mandos go, I have tried to stay about .850" --.835" in thickness, without the .200" fret board. My octave I built in '19 has a .825" thick neck. No truss rod, but laminated with rosewood and bubinga, I think it was-- quarter sawn and glued with Gorilla glue, into a 5 piece neck blank. I took weeks shaping it to my liking. Heavier strings than most would probably use, but there is no underbow. CF rods (.200" X .250," ) from StewMac. I imbedded them .125" below the surface where the fretboard glues on. Filled with rosewood strips about .200" X .125". I did a lot of thinking and lots of full sized drawings on this project. It took me most of '19 from spring to late August to build this octave. Then I built a custom case for it. When I ran into a possible snag, I let it go till I could make a "mock up" of how to solve an issue. I sold my old Gibson for financial reasons, back during Dubbya Bush, but my octave mandolin sort of makes up for the loss. Cheers, my friends. Bob in Montana.
I have a Takamine classical guitar which I try to use for fingerstyle jazz , the neck has a two way truss rod in there and works well for both directions adjusting neck, I wonder I can make the neck 1/8 inch thinner, will lot’s easier for me to play. Thanks.
You need to know the dimensions of the truss rod and the channel it sits in. Otherwise, you could expose the channel and rod as you attempt to thin the neck.
Some help. My first guitar I made in 1983. Years later, fingerboard separated from neck, so when I clamped it back up, I crushed the thin back of the neck behind the truss rod. Now truss rod shows. Suggestions? I'm planning on removing neck wood and splicing wood to read and reshaping it thicker. Will add piece of wood that is slightly slotted. Ideas or links? Thanks.
Dumb question…when you reference measurements “at the first fret” for example, are you measuring at the theoretical fret centerline, or the center of the span between the nut and the fret centerline. I know there isn’t much difference here on the actual finished neck wood thickness, but for purposes of making a CAD model, I would like to know which way you reference. Great idea to use the drilled holes as a depth stop!
Thanks for the video. I made a neck which got thin near trussrod slot. That thickness is less than 1/8 inch and is coming 2mm. So I placed a 0.5mm sheet metal strip under trussrod in that area. Is that can provide some strength, so trussrod cannot pop out at back ??
From what I have heard about the Jackson Mick Thompson custom, in order to get a thinner profile on the back of the neck, the Jackson custom shop actually cuts a slot in the back of the fretboard to allow the truss rod more clearance from the back of the neck. Have you ever heard of this?
Yes, In fact I've had to do it myself a few times when the TR slot ended up too shallow and I was afraid to make it deeper. It's just another example of how people will go to ridiculous lengths to make a neck thin.
What are your thoughts on changing a radius? I've just brought a 7.25 down to a 9.5 though I wasn't able to find any info on the subject... Worked well on a solid maple vintage fender.. 79 model.. didn't go through the dots just had to deepin the slots slightly but not much... Tangs were long though, close to a .100 thou
As long as you can redrill the marker dots or recut the fret slots as you did without going all the way through the fretboard, changing the radius is no big deal as long as the bridge saddle height is adjusted to match the fretboard's new radius. If the bridge has a fixed radius, like a tune-o-matic, it would have to be replaced with one that has the same radius as the reworked fretboard. Another issue to consider is how changing the fretboard's radius could affect string action over the frets. Sanding a new radius could lower the frets, which would increase string height. As long as the bridge saddles have enough adjustment range to be lowered to achieve the string action you want, you should be okay.
Highline Guitars I took all that for granted I suppose, it's definitely a situational thing... The start and tele maple fretboard is really your only thing I could imagine someone really wanting to change... I doubt anyone would attempt flattering out a veneered rosewood on a vintage fender.. Anyone who would do it on a 59' "slab" should be run outta town... I suppose though Stevie's #1 was re cut to a 12' but I don't know the backstory.. maybe a new board all together was laid down..... Anyway great and helpful information... Thanks
Could one add to a guitar neck? Add more girth to a neck? Have a neck off a Kramer Tele, it's just too thin. Not playable for me. But the grain and markings on the fretboard are real attractive. Or maybe I'll stick to my original plan to get a Fender soft V attached to this knock off Stratocaster body I bought. Pricey though.
Hello sir, I have a very special question for you. I planning my first guitar build and fell in love with the way Music Man recesses their Toggle Switches into the body on the Majesty Series. Any idea how to replicate this? Thanks and greetings from germany
M Pat the switch isn’t recessed. It’s mounted into a cavity routed in the back of the horn. The shaft of the switch extends up through a slot routed in the front of the horn.
I would think cf rectangular rods on end running the length would add something but it could be that the wood is just equally as stiff and it cancels out any benefit.
IMO, if you can bend a CF structure with your bare hands, it probably won't do much good. A rectangular rod with the right wall thickness might do the trick.
@@HighlineGuitars Right. I used to build RC airplanes we used cf to stiffen wings. The flat rod type held flat you can bend fairly easily but stood vertical it becomes stiff. Forget the round type.
May i ask for some advice on replacing a thin modern neck to a thicker neck for a better stability as you mentioned? in relation to the existing neck pocket? Does that mean you need to adjust the depth of the pocket to maintain the height of your fretboard and frets at the current level? how could you do that without a router? Thank you very much
What you'll need to do will depend on the overall thickness of the new neck's heel (including the fretboard and frets). If it's the same as the old neck, you won't have to deepen the neck pocket. If the new neck heel is thicker than the old one and you want to maintain the height of the fretboard and frets, then you will have to either deepen the pocket (with files and chisels if you don't have a router) or you can sand the bottom of the new neck's heel to match the thickness of the old neck's heel. The approach you choose will depend on what you feel will work the best. Good luck!
I accidentally took my Kramer neck down too low, exposing some of the truss rod and it still works fine. I agree with this video but I will say, a partially exposed rod is not the end of that guitar. IMO.
Thanks for the video, I have a question about headstock thickness. What should i do if the thickness is thin by an 8th of Android inch? Should I use a veneer??
What it comes down to is whether or not you can install the tuners. If you can’t (there’s not enough thickness to tighten down the nuts), you’ll need a veneer thick enough to make up the difference.
As thin as the truss rod will allow. The only way to know is to x-ray the neck since it varies. Also, leave at least an eighth of an inch of wood between the truss rod and the back of the neck.
I’m sure if you pack the carbon fiber rods in, incredibly tight and glue a shimmed piece of wood above it and hammer it in that it would be more effective. You have to really make sure that it is packed very very tight into the wood
"Wanna use metric? - Nah, let's do some fractions." Thanks for the tips, man! The drill before sanding is an ingenious idea. Any tips for the best profile? C? D? Something custom? I want to thin and reprofile my Schecter Demon Elite, feels like a baseball bat.
I would suggest making a set of profile templates. Also, and more important, know what's inside the neck and where everything (truss rod, stiffeners, etc.) is located before you try to reshape. You don't want to expose anything!
I have a bass guitar i never play because the neck is massive, i wish someone could give me some advice on how to solve the problem without replacing the neck, i don't know if i should sand it down or not, any info. or video's will be welcome, thanks, Scott.
You have to know what's inside the neck. In other words, how much can you sand off without exposing a truss rod or reinforcement bars. If you don't know that info, you can't do anything about it except to have a new neck made for it.
Hi Chris. These tips are one of the most usefull ever ! Thanks for that. However, there"s one thing i can't get to find out correctly. And that is..how to find out exactly where to place the fretboard, especially on a Strat or Tele wihout plans. Ben crowe from Crimson says '( on a 22 frets), the nut slot should align with the end of the truss rod wrench side and the 22st fret slot exactly with the middle of the end of the neck ? I keep strugling with this. You explained a lot over here, and i will watch this vid over and over, but there must be some sort of a universal way to figure that out. Could you maybee possibly make a vid alone on that matter please ? Thanks Chris ! You're the best ! Greets from Belgium.
All this about stability, thickness, wood...and not a word about what seems the obvious solution from a layman's point of view...Torrefied maple. How about titanium, either inserts or under fingerboard? If you can make a neck right that will not move, why would you even need a truss rod? What am I missing, other than cost?
@@HighlineGuitars great stuff, I suggest you in your logo to put Custom Guitars half size as that is not the name of the company plus people will notice that anyway.... it is possible to ask for a build with different headstock shape, more like a new charvel and body? I am looking for a guitar that have that shape plus the combination of what you do
its subjective.......i must admitt two things i have small hands and thinking the smallest neck possible would be easier to play Wrong but thats a players perspective....this vid is a builders.....good to know tho
OMG In 2023 still useing using imperial, fractions of an Inch, I had to pause the video several times to grab the calculator and translate 3/16" of an inch to mm, then he says 4/16" why not even 1/4" now I don´t need a calcuator it´s 0.25", yes decimal numbers do exist, again can´t belive in 2023 half the plantet still uses Imperial Inches, foots.....and with all respect, ridiculous fractions like 4/64" come on, at least use decimal. I respect every culture and religion but can´t understand and educated luthier like this man that uses CNC machines and modern techologý talking about fractions of an inch that can be siplified or at least use decimal, IE 0.25" it´s not that hard isn´t It, I had to learn english .I can barely write and talk in english but at least I try.....
Not sure where you guys are buying your carbon fiber rods..telling people they are next to useless is misinformation...I use rods in all my necks. They are epoxied in.. my truss rod is almost useless due to the strength added from the rods..
So why don't any of the other major guitar makers use them? They are easy to install so cost isn't a reason. Also, if your truss rod is almost useless, why are you installing one?
Surely a five piece epoxy laminated neck with carbon fibre rods install the correct way(not the flat way) epoxied in is stronger than a maple or mahogany neck even if its quartersawn, agree to disagree
@@HighlineGuitars Chris, that's what I'm talking about. A couple of CF rods will render a TR useless. Of course, the rods have to be imbedded in tightly in order to do what they do. I will always use Epoxy myself, it helps the rods snuggle down into their grooves, like grease, clamped very tightly as well, then the epoxy sets up after a couple days and you did a good job of making a stiff neck. CF is cheaper than a TR in the first place. Bob
Ian Greene I completely agree with you. I have built a quality octave mandolin. Used CF rods and a 5 piece lam neck blank -- no truss rod. A waste of time and money to buy a useless TR and put it in. 😄🏆😃
I dont understand american metrics, why say 3/16ths of an inch instead of ....mm. its like expressing 3 yards in terms of miles because you dont have a smaller metric.
The inch is the standard. It can be divided in any size increments. Most speak in terms of 16th but in machinist language, it is divided into thousandths of an inch. For example 1/2 inch is expressed .500 or 500 thousandths of an inch. Or the inch is divided a thousand tiny increments. This is used to express tolerances in very tiny amounts. If you want to remove 5 thousandths of material, it is unpractical to express that in 16ths of an inch. It must be expressed in smaller increments. Incidentally its more pactical in metric conversions and most measuring devices are divided into thousandths or even smaller. My preference? Metric of course but if you cant change it then work with it.
I agree. I simply can't understand why the US has not gone metric. Ok I do understand, the US does not want to be told by other countries its units for measurement, so it forces on people the ridicules imperial system which was the system the UK used at the time. The metric system canes the imperial system as it is in units of 10. A total no brainer, it also has the mm which there is no comparitve unit in the imperial system. In the UK where I am it is a total mess. The imperial system and the metric are running side by side, often to the extent that a piece of metal will be given as 1 and 3 quarters inch by 25mm, WTF. Wake up US/UK and standardise everything to Metric.
