Can a True Christian Fall away From the Faith? 

No one can abide by their own willpower Only by the Holy Spirit can ANYONE abide or endure...

​@@tomtemple69I deed the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Gospel - called: "The hearing of faith" (Galatians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 1 Peter 1:5)

Excellent. No better way to put it. As Dr. Michael Brown puts it "you can't lose your salvation...but you can forfeit it." And I think that language works better with the entirety of the Old Testament.

​@@divinityofblackness6330Absolutely. Consider the wording of Ezekiel 33:13. Romans 8:13 reflects essentially a parallel of that verse.

@bairfreedom anyone believing they can "walk away".. or "apostate".. themselves... does NOT believe in what Calvinism teaches.. those who have been called by God unto salvation.. have received the "irresistible call of the Spirit" this call of the Spirit does Not get directed by God... to someone.. and draws them to God.. Only to allow them to by their own will.. walk away from what God has called them to ... at any point in the future.. God does not treat us like yo-yo's on strings.. or even like a kite on a string.. where we can go flying away from Him... any who have received the call of the Spirit..in other words... called by God.. are His for keeps.. as a Calvinist... I DO believe.. that God has chosen to harden some hearts as he did with the Pharaoh's of Moses day... for reasons known ONLY to Him... but.. these hearts will reject the call from the beginning.... hence blaspheming the spirt... Matthew 12:31-32....these will Not be saved at all.. therefore doomed to the unpardonable sin... I do not believe one can "un-save" themselves.. nor will God withdraw His salvation for ones He has chosen... this would be saying that God makes mistakes.. He doesn't..

I just want to respond to your comment where you said, "...Reformed Christians take seriously God's sovereignty,...". All due respect, and I mean that sincerely... I see Calvinists make this false claim all the time. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the non-Calvinists, if not all of the one's I know do indeed take God's "sovereignty" serious. I've studied the subject of the varying views of soteriology for quite a few years and what I see is a mistake made by Calvinists where they define "sovereignty" in an idiosyncratic way. If Calvinists would correctly define sovereignty it would cause them to put aside a bias they have based on a false presupposition of God's sovereignty.

I would agree with you. Some people misunderstand Soverign grace and replace it with a sloppy grace.

PAUL'S WORDS do read and take serious. Because your reasoning is FULL of the creeds and traditions of men and we must discern absolute from relative arguments. This one is an absolute one and not subject to relativism or further context. Romans 8:38 "38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow-not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below-indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord." If indeed" nothing in all of creation will ever be able to seperate us from the love of God "then we as Christians cannot fall away even when we try. I don't care for opinions and am merely here to call out such heresy. I say this as one who has witnessed EL ELYON on his throne, of whom I did not know of and who's face I could not see on the throne, until I was "sanctified" on his right hand side. Not by my works, but by his decree "that [I] might believe" and never can fall away despite wrestling with God and my faith in him. Sanctification is nothing you yourself do. Our actions are merely the affirmation of such heavenly decrees. But once saved, we are never in no wise - panteles - able to lose salvation. Period.

Because He knew squabbles of this nature would come up, Jesus in His wisdom did not leave us orphans----He established the Catholic Church and gave it infallible teaching authority. Our Holy Mother the Catholic Church teaches that salvation (the "state of grace ") can be forfeited, and all it takes is one mortal sin. The Church further teaches that the state of grace can be re-gained by a sincere repentance and good Confession .

@@a-sheepof-christ9027 Nothing will separate us from God's love. God loves saints and sinners alike. If we sin and break from Him, we lose our salvation (we lose the state of grace) but He still loves. God punished Adam and Eve but He still punished them. God even loves the souls in Hell. The fire they experience is only the fire of His love, experienced by the souls in Hell as painful because they do lot love God back. They will stay in Hell forever but God still loves them. So "nothing can separate us from God's love" does not mean once-saved-always-saved. Once-saved-always-saved is a license to sin.

I left the faith as a confused teenager and came back as an adult. Does the verse in Hebrews mean I still have no hope of salvation?

Reformed theology is false doctrine

God bless you!

As long as you're being honest and seeking the scripture and not a theologian like White or Durbin to explain it away in textual criticism or Calvinistic doctrine rather than just God's word then you'll be okay.

@@Livelife95ify are you saying that the entirety of reformed theology is false? If so then that would mean that you are saying that the diety of Christ is false, salvation by faith through grace (alone) is false, etc... do you believe those things are false?

@@BibleLovingLutheran would you agree that the same thing applies to non calvinists?

Scripture alone but your church follows tradition?

I would suggest you have studied more but glad you have peace no matter what. The Scriptures scream to us that God PRESERVES His people. The "if" passages aren't prescriptive. Prove it to me from the Greek. They are DESCRIPTIVE. Showing what the true Christians will do. Perseverance of the Saints. The warning passages are not hypothetical. Apostasy is real...but again not for the born again child of God.

As a Lutheran, I struggled with these texts. Now, as a Presbyterian, I have peace.

There are many passages that suggest that salvation can never be lost or forfeited and there are many passages that suggest that salvation can indeed be lost or forfeited. That is why the Protestant notion that every believer can interpret the Scripture for himself is totally wrong. We need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church, sometimes called the magisterium. Our Holy Mother the Catholic Church teaches that the state of grace can indeed be forfeited (Dr. Cooper is quite correct to say that "forfeited" is a better word here than "lost") and all it takes is one mortal sin. The state of grace can be regained by a sincere repentance and good Confession.

@@honeybee-k9z The Confessional Lutheran church preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified and that alone is our Peace. You speak against things you do not understand.

Peace. Do you agree with this video? If so, why?

That is why the orthodox Christian belief from the apostles is endure to the end. We must abide in Christ or else we are cut off the vine.

@@FrMoody I've read several Palamist sermons insisting on "I'm being saved," and Lutherans would not deny it. But what do you so with the broader morphology of "save" in the NT? It certainly says we are being saved, but it also says "He saved us...by the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit," and "By grace you have been saved." biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4982.htm

I don't know how Dr. Cooper feels but his hero Martin Luther taught that only the loss of faith resulted in the loss of salvation, that no believer loses salvation by committing sin. "If anyone should still believe in the stupid ten commandments let him chase himself to the Jews," Luther said.

You are begging the question. You assume because we are saved then God would not let us fall away. But this does nothing to address the very real possibility of turning away and resisting his grace. Falling away does not mean we were never his it means we rejected him.

It seems to be a paradox where it’s both and something the ancient world understood, while the West we do not. We want answers and assurances.

There exists a will of desire. It’s also His will that all people are saved (1 Tim 4:10).

You might be interested to hear this: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KOlT3bOI0Kw.html

The passage you cite has nothing to do with a question of perseverance or the assertion of once saved always saved. John is warning against false prophets, antichrists, liars, deceivers, etc.

I scratched my head on this but unlocked the Lutheran DaVinci Code if you will. In Lutheranism you can have real true regenerate "Christians"...all Baptized barbies!!!! So...because the Sacramental efficacy is of main focus always you must be able to account for those who "fall away" after having received true efficacious grace in the water of Baptism. Once you get past this you see Lutherans squirming whenever Calvin is mentioned (sad because Calvin admired Luther unto death) but at the CORE soteriology....and I mean the CORE...there is no difference. What about universal grace? Same answer. You need universal grace to subsidize the efficacy of infant Baptismal regeneration and you must have true apostates as an excuse to handle when one of the Non Elect falls away (yet they truly were BAPTIZED). So...the reason I say that at the CORE. ...the Sola Fide Monergistic CORE is the same is because Lutheran Theology teaches that the ELECT OF GOD shall NEVER perish ..... im good with that. The Apostates they speak of are visible church stragglers...covenant fallouts. Similar to Federal Vision in the sense that there are the Covenantally Elect (Baptized) and then there are the Decretally Elect (regenerated). We have a similar stance in Presbyterianism with the visible and invisible church we just never teach that A regenerated heart can become unregenerated...its a difference in our language and that for the reasons stated above the Lutherans claim that real born again Christians can be lost but never the Elect. We teach that ONLY the Elect are Born Again. Shalom.

Marcus Williams no it’s not. They were with us, which means that they were thought to be Christians, but their leaving showed that they weren’t.

@@itslitgamestv6827 Incorrect. That text is talking about Antichrists. It explains who the “they” are and what the “they” were doing. The “they” were Antichrists and they were outright denying that Jesus is the Christ.

Now, however, since you have come to know [the true] God [through personal experience], or rather to be known by God, how is it that you are turning back again to the weak and worthless elemental principles [of religions and philosophies], to which you want to be enslaved all over again? Galatians 4:9 God has given us a choice.. if we are willing to continue with God he will sustain us.. just like we were willing to be saved while he is the one who saves us.. If a person wants to return to deceptive teachings and fall away it's their choice.. and God will not stop because we are humans.. not robots!

Faith is a gift from God but so are the good works we do, and so is hope. St. Paul says all three are necessary for salvation and not just faith. He even says good works are greater than faith and hope. See 1 Corinthians 13:13.

@@GeorgePenton-np9rh 1 Corinthians 13 is not about salvation or works. 13 But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the [f]greatest of these is love.

?????? What ? What ? What ? Don't you know that Hebrews is written to all Christians? Read Chapter 1:1, 2 Read Chapter 2:3, 4 Read Chapter 12:22-25 GOD has spoken to US by His SON in fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18:15-19 / Acts 2:33 If you read John's Gospel (eg 14:23, 24) you will find the Lord reiterating this theme and it's found in Luke also (Luke 10:16) But as to "walking away from grace", That is made abundantly clear in Hebrews 3:12. Indeed Hebrews 3:14 uses the perfect tense to say we are become (Riight now) PARTAKERS OF CHRIST, And yet the inspired author uses the conditional clause in tandem with his statement: "IF hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end" This is no different to the warning the Lord gave us: "He that endures to the end shall be saved"

THIS IS THE ONE YOU NEED ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-i3ouCJ5hvBo.html

Still Lutheran? :)

@@JoojieXD yes indeed

I love Baptists both the Soutuer Baotist variety and of the Non Denom variety but bro--youre embarrassing yourself

Romans 6:23. The GIFT of God is eternal life. Second Corinthians 9:13. Thanks be to God for His UNSPEAKABLE GIFT. Once we accept the GIFT, we have eternal life. If we could lose it, it would not be eternal life. John 5:24. John 6:40. John 10:28-29. Hebrews 13:5. The gospel. First Corinthians 15:1-4. Romans 1:16. Ephesians 1:13-14. Our guarantee of eternal life. Ephesians 4:30. Sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. We can be chastened by the Lord, Colossians 3:5-6, and we can lose the rewards we could have had in heaven, First Corinthians 3:11-15, But not eternal life. First John 5:13. These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God, that ye may KNOW YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. Disclaimer. I am not a Calvinist, nor am I an Arminian, just a bible believer. John 3:18 Everyone is either one or the other. Has believed and has eternal life, or has not believed and does not have eternal life. The simplicity of the gospel. Acts 16:31.

Revelation says he will not blot us out of the book of life. Will not is the opposite of will. Duh!

@@gregorylatta8159 then you haven't read the Book of Rev, not only does it come with a promise, but says if you add or take away from "this book" your name will be blotted out from the Book of Life. BTW, never remembered Jesus saying "duh" to a believer so maybe change your funky attitude foolish one (He did call people fools so, I can say that). Have a great day

@@Shellyspurr Actually the original Greek says tree of life.

@@gregorylatta8159 Gen 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life." Greek will be different than English for sure, but just about every English Bible says book. Both are wood literally so, I can accept tree haha. This is interesting tho, id like to know more because the book of Gen says tree of life so, I would like to know more about how they're similar. Thank you for this incite

@@Shellyspurr The Lambs book of life is usually thought of as the list that was made before the foundation of the world of those predestined for salvation. There is much debate within Christianity about this and many issues such as OSAS and many many others. All I can say is no matter what anyone thinks I am going to trust Jesus alone for my salvation and I suggest others do the same.

Peace. Do you agree with this video?

Watch Chuck Missler Eternal Security. It will clear up everything

If you even have the desire to repent and recognize you need to, Hebrews 6 is not speaking to you

Have you had some resolution on this issue? How are you thinking about it today?

In my own opinion, Catholicism resembles common law because of the development of doctrine, and the ongoing harmonization of multiple sources of authority (the consensus of bishops, the Patristic writings, the Scriptures, the councils, and private revelations such as Fatima) with the Papacy as the final court of appeal. Protestantism resembles civil law because of its insistence upon self-contained documents (compare the Book of Concord or the Westminster Confession to the Napoleonic Code, for instance).

That would be calling God a liar and not maintaining faith/trust in God, His Word and Work. We call it a seared conscience, the remedy is the hammer of God, and private honest confession and Absolution.

A born again person can reject his faith.. God doesn't force his will on anyone.. but if your a person who genuinely follow God I don't think hel let you fall away. Hel bring a person back no matter how far he's gone.. but again his willingness wil matter.

If a person will fall away from faith to the point God will cut away him, he will never come back to faith - he is doomed as letter of hebrews undeniably stayed.

Lutherans baptize comatose family members if there's any evidence they are believers and wanted to be baptized eventually. Lutherans baptize the quadriplegic. And Lutherans baptize babies. I never seen no baby do no work.

If we define "works" as "anything physical that ever occurs", of course the sacraments are works. But by this definition, the death and resurrection of Christ is a work, and we know we are saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. So the definition of "work" in this context must be "anything physical of man's doing" (as opposed to God's doing). Your argument then rests on a presupposition that the sacraments (baptism and communion) are works of man. The orthodox Lutheran understanding is that these are absolutely not works of man, but works of God. If a dirty dish is washed clean, it is not the dish which worked itself clean, but the washer of the dish who did the work. So it is in baptism, where it is not the water which purifies, but the "washing of the water with the Word" (Eph 5:26). Further, we know God does use physical things to accomplish His will. We are physical bodies, and will be reunited with our physical bodies in the last day. We place our trust in the physical blood of Jesus on a physical cross at a precise time and location in history, and His physical resurrection. The sick woman who touched Jesus' garment in Luke 8 was made well by faith, at the moment she touched Jesus' physical robe. A few seconds before she touched His robe, she had faith that once she touched His robe, she would be healed. But she was not healed until physically touching his physical robe. The sacraments of baptism and communion were instituted by Christ Himself and are not ours to do away with. If the Bible said "pat yourself on top of your head five times and you will be saved" we would all take it at face value. But when St Paul says in Acts 22:16, "Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins", we say we don't need baptism to wash away our sins. And when St Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that "baptism now saves you", we say no it doesn't. And when Christ Himself says in Matthew 26 that "This [the wine] is the blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins", we say it's not actually His blood and it doesn't actually work forgiveness of sins. Faith alone saves, and we must have faith that His Word and the blessed sacraments will deliver what He has promised!

Unsound doctrine is sin.

You're not the first person who has asked this, so I will try and make it a priority to answer this in another video.

cool, And could you also tell me what type of Lutheran you are? I grew up in the ELCA church and I know there are different types. That might help with some understanding as well.

I am a pastor in the AALC. We are quite small. We were founded by the old ALC by churches who did not want to join the merger that became the ELCA, because we had some concern regarding their views on Scripture.

Also, you may find this video on the order of salvation helpful: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Ro3W2k26jZQ.html

I watched this video and also looked up the AALC. I would say I find your beliefs more Biblical than what I have experienced with the ELCA. I don't believe all that you are saying and find it all a bit "religious". By that I mean traditions of man more than a relationship with God Himself. It seems that from your video I would agree on the basics of how one gets saved. I certainly don't hold to any teaching that says infants should be baptized or that it accomplishes anything in terms of that child's salvation. Salvation is a choice that we make to accept what Jesus did for us on the cross. A baby can't do that and the parents can't do that for them. However, I'll watch some more and listen to what you have to say. Maybe you can move from water baptism to the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it was in Acts. You do know that is still available to us today, right?! Romans 10:9-10 English Standard Version (ESV) 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

You should try reading the Bible sometime friend

Philippians 1:6 has to be interpreted in the light of Matthew 10:22 (Scripture interprets Scripture). If we persevere in grace, avoiding mortal sin, repenting of mortal sin if we have the misfortune to commit one, then yes, we will grow to perfection in Christ.

Yes this

"Peter, the formidable rock, falling into great sin and experienced in struggle, did not despair and did not lose the presence of the Spirit, rather he shed bitter tears from a warm heart and, seeing that, the devil fled from him as though burned by fire." - St. Seraphim Of Sarov Christ created us with free will, He even allows us to fall into sin in order for us to remain humble and contrite and not become proud as the demons/devils who themselves don't eat food nor sleep, have sexual relations and have knowledge of the Scriptures. Peter denied the Lord three times and supported false doctrine(Judaizing) yet the Lord accepted his repentance and self-correction. God bless!

@@anthonyp6055 I understand your point (and agree full heartedly)...but how do we reconcile that with the Hebrews passage that says "it's impossible to renew the repentant back to repentance"? I know I'll find the answer eventually...I just need to search.

No, we abandon him however. Calvin's theology came from augustine, who invented predestination as a desperate response to pelagius in their letter correspondence. Augustin spent 9 years with the manichaens, its no wonder he had such repugnant doctrine.

Braden Glass sorry, God invented predestination. Have you read his book?

@@godslittleman5451 I have. You should spend more time on it instead of the institutes on religion.

Braden Glass if you had, you would have come across the word, “predestined many times.” It’s not goin anywhere just cause you don’t like it.

@@godslittleman5451 predestination is certainly there, its just not what reformed say it is. See cooper's video debunking the limited atonement btw

Christopher Mount I’m guessing he doesn’t.

Let’s flip the around. How do you reconcile those texts you posted with the ones he pointed out within taking the hypothetical but not possible view or being externally connected to the church without true faith?

@@JonathanGrandt He reconciles them the way Lutheran doctors always have. bookofconcord.org/sd-election?setSidebar=min#para68 bookofconcord.org/sd-election.php#para12 bookofconcord.org/exhortation.php

Let's face it, the Bible contradicts itself a lot. That's why we need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church. See 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, and Acts 8:31.

Let's face it the Bible contradicts itself all over the place. That's why we need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church.

I think Scripture says that those who fall away can not return. At times it seems almost like there are 2 groups. 1 being Elect and 2 being those who come to Faith. Maybe the truly elect can not fall away but those whom follow Christ can. I’m probably wrong, but I fail to understand how it sometimes seems like there are different rules applied to “Elect” than other Christians.

Eternal life is the knowledge of Him, jn 17.3. It is participation in His uncreated life. When we stop obeying the gospel we become disconnected from grace and need to be renewed. David experienced this and thus said, God take not your holy Spirit from me. See you soon , iakobe.

God never takes away salvation (more accurately called "the state of grace" because no one knows for certain that he will be saved). Nor can any power in Heaven or on earth....except....we ourselves. The state of grace is a free gift, true, but like any gift it can be thrown away. We lose the state of grace by committing just one mortal sin, but God is merciful and will restore us to the state of grace if we sincerely repent and go to Confession. Once-saved-always-saved is a license to sin and I think deep down everybody recognizes that.

That is a very good point, Hans. The relationship (personal relationship with Jesus, no?) with Jesus is often likened to a marriage, with Jesus being the groom and our souls being the bride. The book of Revelation speaks of the Church as the mystical body of Christ. Some Catholic hymns speak of Jesus, "the bridegroom of my soul". A nun is considered to be a bride of Christ. In a marriage the partners need to have faith in each other, have hope that the marriage will work, and they must do good works for each other. We should understand that faith without works is dead but we should REALLY understand that love without good works is the phonyest kind of love imaginable. Having faith in each other and that's all that is needed? No.....

If unsaved humans can keep loving someone for their whole life, how much easier is it for one with the Spirit to love God even longer?

*Ezekiel 18:23; 33:11* God wants all wicked to repent and live. *Luke 7:30* God's βουλή (plan/purpose/resolve/counsel) for the Pharisees was to accept them. But they rejected this βουλή of God for themselves, by refusing John's baptism. *1 Timothy 4:10; 1 John 2:2* He is especially the Savior of believers. He remains the Savior of all people. This makes the labor of evangelism and the reproach of scoffers bearable. He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the church AND the world. *John 1:29; 3:16* The lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. God loved the world. *Luke 8:13* Jesus asserts that some really do *joyfully believe* the gospel for a while, and actually *fall away* through trials and temptations. *Luke 11:13* Jesus is emphatic that the Father gives the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks. *Romans 11:32* Who does God have mercy for? Everyone whom he consigned to disobedience! *1 Corinthians 8:11* It is possible to destroy the saving faith of a brother for whom Christ died. *Eph **4:30* The Ephesians were sealed for the day of redemption, yet Paul warned them that the possibility of grieving the Holy Spirit was a reality. *2 Peter 2:1* Christ bought even the heretics who deny Him and destroy themselves. *1 Tim 2:1-6* Christ died for all people and wants all people to be saved. Therefore, Paul commands us to *intercede* even for godless kings and rulers. *Hebrews 3:1-12* Even "holy brothers and sisters" can "turn away from the living God" with an "evil, unbelieving heart." *Hebrews 2:1, 12:25* The author and the audience could reject God's warning and not escape. *Hebrews 6:4-6* It is possible for one to be enlightened, taste the heavenly gift, have the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the word of God, and then fall away. *Ephesians 3:3-6; Isaiah 45:19* As God has revealed his secret will in scripture, it is always to extend greater mercy. *1 John 2:2* Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, not only for the church.

You should be Catholic.

If this video is true, then what are we supposed to do?

What do you mean? As regards to oneself - or as regards to those who fail to understand this subject correctly? Hebrews 7 - I think it is - explains how obedience is required - repentance is necessary. Exactly what the people of Israel - the majority refused to do. And repaed thei rjust reward as a result. @@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298

@@debbystevens7494, peace sister. I'm asking that if this video is true and a Christian can Spirit filled Christian can forfeit Salvation, then what are we as Christians supposed to do? Where do we find our assurance?

I'm sure you say obedience if necessary, not to negate Salvation by grace through faith alone right?

@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 What are we supposed to do? We are supposed to avoid all mortal sin. If we have the misfortune to commit a mortal sin God will forgive us if we have sincere repentance and if we go to Confession.

It’s the level of obedience that is in question. Salvation cannot be works based, sanctification is. I too was IFB King James only, through careful study and memorizing many of the epistles, God showed me that He chooses who he wants in heaven, just like a man chooses his wife.

Sk each individual has no choice?

_"When Arminians affirm that Christians can fall away, and when Calvinists deny it, it's often because they are agreed upon the assumption or presupposition that perseverance ultimately depends on the human being."_ I strongly disagree with this line. Calvinists affirm that God is the perseverer, not man. Read Westminster Confession chapter 17 _Of the Perseverance of the Saints_ and see that the first two sections are all about what God does in salvation. When it finally gets to man in the third and final section, it is all about the ways that man screws up.

@@oracleoftroy Re-reading that sentence of mine, I realize that I too quickly wrote it and expressed what I meant to say incorrectly. I"m a Calvinist and I do agree with you that Calvinists believe God is the preserver, not man. In fact, sometimes the 5th point of Calvinism, "The Perseverance of the Saints", is sometimes called "The Preservation of the Saints" by Calvinists because ultimately God is the one who preserves the believer, rather than the believer being the ultimate cause of their perseverance. Because God empowers them and ensures that they will, inexorably, persevere. I agree with that. What I actually meant to say in that incorrectly phrased statement is: //When Arminians affirm that Christians can fall away, and when Calvinists deny it, it's often because they are agreed upon the assumption or presupposition that [falling away] ultimately depends on the human being. But that's not the only possibility. // Since Calvinists believe that God has the power to cause true believers from falling away, it doesn't occur to them that true believers can fall away. But that's because they have the additional presupposition that God wouldn't allow/permit a true believer to fall away. Whereas Augustinians don't accept that assumption that God wouldn't allow/permit a true believer to fall away. Despite the fact that Augustinians also agree with Calvinists that God has the power to prevent a true believer from falling away [which Augustinians describe as the additional "gift of perseverance"].

@@oracleoftroy In addition to the correction that I made above. I have to say that Augustinians also [generally] believe that falling away is ultimately due to man's will. They usually deny double predestination, or any positive decree of damnation. However, some people, like myself, would argue that it's technically not true that falling away is ultimately due to the human will given Augustinianism. Since, in Augustinianism God could have given the gift of perseverance to any and all saints. Yet, God intentionally refuses to do that for some saints [for whatever inscrutable reasons He has]. In which case, logically speaking, folks like myself would argue that in Augustinianism falling away is ultimately due to God's will not man's. Though, Augustinians like to focus on human will as the cause, rather than God's will to protect God's honor.

+Edward -- I can't fully tell from your post if you're in the Lutheran camp or not (my impression is that you are not but if you are my apology) but you might want to check out this article. *_"Why Lutheran Predestination Isn't Calvinist Predestination"_* by *Mathew Block* from _First Things_ www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/10/why-lutheran-predestination-isnt-calvinist-predestination

resurrectionjose I've previously read Mathew Block’s article and commented on it in the comments below it. But briefly I don't agree with his argument that Luther didn't endorse predestination to hell. There's nothing in Luther’s commentary on Genesis that actually supports this. It's plain that we can't know whether we're saved (and therefore conclude we're predestined to be saved) except through our faith in Christ since He is the only access to God that we have, but this doesn't rule out predestination to hell which Luther most certainly defends in The Bondage of the Will, and which he supports when he says in his Genesis commentary “I have written that everything is absolute and unavoidable”. Also there's a misunderstanding in Lutheran circles that Luther was opposed to reason and logic particularly with reference to predestination and that he was in agreement with the Formula of Concord on this. However this is completely mistaken. Luther only opposed reason when it sought to make a value judgement on the truthfulness of Scripture, however he defended to the utmost the use of reason when arguing from Scriptural premises. Therefore we find him making the following summary of his position in The Bondage of the Will which confirms he held predestination to both heaven and hell: “For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it (as reason itself is forced to admit), then on the testimony of reason itself there can't be any free choice in man or angel or any creature”. (page 293, Luther's Works, Vol 33) By the way in my eyes I’m a Lutheran since I agree with Luther and support the teachings of the Book of Concord that were in existence during Luther's lifetime. However since Lutheranism since 1580 has been defined by acceptance of the Formula of Concord’s teaching on predestination, which I hold is in error (and which Luther wouldn't have agreed with), I don't refer to myself as a Lutheran.

+Edward -- Luckily while coming back here and re-reading the entirety of your post after digging around one of my external hard drives (it's normally hooked up to my laptop computer) for the titles of one or two books as well as looking up some stuff online, I noticed that I might have been a bit hasty or simply misread the second paragraph in your previous post. (Further below I'm going ahead and mention what I presumed at first and cite the title and accompanying link to Amazon.) The one thing I should have done but didn't bother to do because it might have been way too time-consuming is looking for a quotation in some book I have on former fundamentalist Christians ("Leaving The Fold..." by Edward Babinski) whereby the author either insinuates that Luther held to "double predestination" or directly quotes him by actually citing from one of his works. What I recall is something about the *_"acme of faith"_* and will probably look it up another time during the upcoming morning or afternoon. I also don't want to be rummaging around one of my bookshelves in another part of the house and near a family member who is sound asleep. :) All that being said, I think you're most probably right about Luther holding to *and* perhaps early on teaching "double predestination" while Lutheranism in general and many Lutherans in particular say otherwise. That article by Mathew Block is a case in point. I never bothered to read the comments section of his article which ironically enough is something I normally do since comments/posts by readers tend to be more interesting and enlightening than the article(s) themselves. I spotted your comment but won't be elaborating on it here. I will end with the following and touch upon what you said in the second paragraph. *_"Also there's a misunderstanding in Lutheran circles that Luther was opposed to reason and logic..."_* Even though I didn't go any further and cite the rest of what you said, on the whole you are correct. I had to also look around one of my other folders (simply entitled "Lutheranism") where I have 80+ eBooks and journal articles specifically on Martin Luther and Lutheranism. I'll assume you're familiar with the following book that I cited further below. I also took the liberty of citing the Baptist minister and theologian, Roger E. Olson, who had written a blog article showcasing that Luther did indeed hold to "double predestination." Lastly, even if Luther never uttered the same type of statements he did in earlier years I believe the usual criticisms against Calvinism (re: TULIP) or even a modified form of it (e.g., emphasis on 'T' and 'P' while giving short shrift to 'U', 'L', and 'I') can just as well be leveled at him. "Double predestination" no matter how it's sliced boils down to one group being chosen for eternal life (i.e., the Elect) and another group predestined to eternal perdition (i.e., the non-Elect). Mr. Olson in a few of his books on Arminianism (that includes one or two arguing *against* Calvinism) in my view does a splendid job of showing up a number of faulty lines of theological reasoning within Calvinist thought. About the one area that I think he *might* be waffling on is Romans 9 when he more or less quotes John Wesley: *_"It cannot mean, whatever it meant besides, that the God of truth is a liar....Let it mean what it will. It cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust."_* Sounds great at first glance and I reckon eases one's troubled conscience as well as a good deal of cognitive dissonance regarding some "horrible decree" and God's love, but it seems to avoid the text itself and the necessary exegetical work needed in order to determine what that part of Romans (or more to the point chapters 9-11) means and not what we wish it to mean for the sake of squaring things away with some cherished or deeply held doctrine. (I'm trying to find a dissertation online that I have on hand that has since been published in a prestigious monograph series, 'Library of New Testament Studies', and will presume it's either not freely available anymore or I just haven't looked well enough. For the heck of it I will cite the title way at the end and attempt to find it another time. It part one of a trilogy on the entirety of Romans 9, and from an Arminian persuasion.) *_"The Devil's Whore. Reason and Philosophy in the Lutheran Tradition"_* (2011) edited by *Jennifer H. Dragseth* www.amazon.com/Devils-Whore-Philosophy-Lutheran-Tradition/dp/0800698509/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1517473976&sr=8-2&keywords=%27%27The+Devil%27s+Whore.+Reason+and+Philosophy+in+the+Lutheran+Tradition%27%27 *_"Luther and 'Double Predestination'"_* by *Roger E. Olson* www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/04/luther-and-double-predestination/ *_"Arminian Principles for Interpreting Romans 9."_* wesleyanarminian.wordpress.com/category/romans-9/ Brian J. Abasciano *_"Paul’s Use of the Old Testament in Romans 9.1-9. An Intertextual & Theological Exegesis"_* [LNTS] (2004)

resurrectionjose I clicked on your link to the article "Arminian Principles for Interpreting Romans 9" but I don't agree with the argument presented. Romans 9 is about individual predestination. One has to indulge in contorted arguments to arrive at the conclusion that Paul isn't discussing divine predestination to heaven and hell. Luther in "The Bondage of the Will", before presenting Scriptural proof for predestination, argues from the premise that God is omnipotent and omniscient and that God's foreknowledge can't be invalidated, that everything is predestined by God to happen. He argues that God's foreknowledge imposes necessity on everything happening exactly as He has foreknown it will, which means there's no human free will to do anything different. Luther's main emphasis was of course to refute free will in reply to Erasmus but in doing so he argued, totally convincingly, that everything is predestined by God to happen which he then proved from Scripture, in particular Romans 9. In addressing the point that God can't do anything which would seem to us to be unloving and unjust Luther makes the argument that we shouldn't judge God as if He was human as God's justice is above our understanding, and we'll only understand it in the next life when we see that He's perfectly just. (pages 289-293, Luther's Works, Vol 33).

Any way you cut the mustard the parable of the seeds and the sower clearly shows that salvation can be lost Man cannot take salvation away from us. God will not take salvation away from us. No power on earth or Heaven will take away our salvation. And it certainly is a free gift. But like all gifts we ourselves can throw it away. All it takes is one mortal sin. Salvation (better described as the state of grace) can be regained if we have sincere repentance and make a good Confession.

a reborn christian has a new heart and he is a new creation by God. he hates sin intrinsically. He always delights in God's law. (romans7) fake christian has some godly behaviors while their heart is not circumcised by holy spirit.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." If believing in Jesus grants you everlasting life, you can never stop having it. Otherwise it's incoherent. It is in the moment you believe that you are passed from death unto life. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

So is the Holy Spirit a leaking seal till the day of redemption? A new heart of flesh and a new spirit isn't enough to keep someone saved? God can't sovereignly keep someone in the faith ?

​@@tomtemple69I don't understand God to force someone to disbelieve or believe in Him. Salvation requires a person's free will and/or volition. The Lord's love is made apparent in that He allows His creation to be able of themselves to serve and obey Him consciously and not involuntarily in a deterministic or fatalistic sense.

​​@@tomtemple69"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." Matthew 11:12 A particular pious bishop named Theophan importantly clarified; "The fact that the Kingdom of God is "taken by force" presupposes personal effort." A person may have initially or for a long period of time sought it only to then eventually have forsaken it. At one point a person may of their own volition work out their salvation, potentially through particular decisions or judgements of such a person they may fall from the faith or cease to work out their salvation.

@@anthonyp6055 "I don't understand God to force someone to disbelieve or believe in Him. Salvation requires a person's free will and/or volition. The Lord's love is made apparent in that He allows His creation to be able of themselves to serve and obey Him consciously and not involuntarily in a deterministic or fatalistic sense." yeah, that's your opinion the Bible says otherwise also, "force" would imply God doesn't have total and complete control over our existence and doesn't uphold our existence moment by moment

Reformed and stable theology has taught , as Jesus, Paul, and John taught, throughout the years that the Christian is secure in their position of eternal life in Christ. People in our day have forgotton how to read entire books of the Bible, such as Hebrews. It is clear that those the author is referring to are those, such as those who walked rebelliously in the wilderness during Moses' day. You guys are not READING the Bible correctly, plain and simple. It is not always 'simple' to read the Bible, per se, (BUT USUSALLY IT IS) but if you train yourself , according to exegesis, and basic context reading skills --- the historical , grammatical method. The deadly lie is to proudly say that God does not keep his own, and most reformed believers have strongly rebuked the lie of losing salvation for thousands of years. The Bible was written to teach, and thus it was written to be understood. Scripture teaches that God saves to the uttermost. Cooper has faith in sacraments, and that is Catholic heresy.

So, when you see Jesus face-to-face, He will have you to thank for some portion of your salvation...whatever portion your works and obedience was able to preserve that His blood could not? You’re willing to stand at the foot of the cross and say, “Thanks for what you are doing, but I know I also need to do my part.” This line of thinking is sad and heretical.

Lee Bee, what Dr. Cooper may have meant is that people of faith who continue in sin have their faith eaten away little by little. You are right that it is possible to have faith and not be in the state of grace but more times than not faith will erode away from these people. And without faith repentance becomes impossible, unless the person is granted a renewal of faith by the Lord.

@@92aggieboy our salvation is in Jesus alone, but he did say if we don't repent we will perish.

You could be saved. God allows, and in fact encourages, moral U-turns.

Same here im now wondering the same

Yes, God loves a repentant sinner. Look to Christ for your faith. You don't find it through introspection. Get baptized if you haven't been, partake of the Lord's supper, worship him in communion of the saints, study his word and pray to him. Don't spend a bunch of time interrogating your heart, spend your energy seeking to serve your King. Turn that over and over in your mind. Godspeed! Welcome back!

@@guyroszel7584 I didn't realize I had fallen I want the HOLY GHOST and not like this I was attacked and got into Spiritual sifted I want to come back and Satan know I don't belong .He was hitting me hard and I didn't understand. I didn't even read and study. Need to be restored and healed. I had the HOLY GHOST and don't remember what happened and got into flesh lies. The attack s mess my nerves

Confess to a Catholic priest and you’ll be fine.

Do you deny that the apostates have had no connection to Christ and the fruits of the gospel, even if they don’t have saving faith?