It really is crazy how quiet the SD is. Almost hard to believe there's a full 9x19 load of powder going off in there. It just sounds like the action cycling.
Ya I was thinking the same thing! I had the joy of experience that in real life 8 years ago. I guy brought his suppressed AR9 to a shooting event and the sound the bullets made after hitting the steel target and flying into the wild blue yonder was so cool! The zipping whistling noise they make is so cool and weird, you really need to experience it in real life.
I sincerely hope whomever does Ian's production/filming has a separate setup for recording those ricochets. They would make a great sound library for future action movies.
I feel that the main advantage for the MP5-SD is ammo. Like discussed on the 9-hole podcast pick one, the MP5 gives you better density of ammo on your kit, in exchange for worse density of ammo in the sense you're carrying not just more mags, but heavier mags. Couple that with using standard 9mm ammo and there are still niches it will make sense.
Except a 300 blk super isn’t much heavier than a 9mm super. This argument applies for a full loadout of subs but for a split loadout 300 blk offers more power, obviously range, and versatility.
@@K-bob_45 what I mean is that in the same space of kit, you can carry roughly twice as many magazines, though each individual magazine is going to be heavier. Twice as many, heavier magazines, you can carry double the round count in the same space but it'll be over twice as heavy. All the other pros and cons in the video still stand of course
@@joaoie I don’t think a 30 round MP5 mag loaded with even 124 supers is gonna be lighter than an AR mag (polymer or aluminum) loaded with 300 blk supers
@@K-bob_45he's not talking about the weight of the mags, but the physical size. Two MP5 mags can roughly fit in the same size pouch as a single AR mag, so you get double the ammo capacity for the same amount of space.
@@GUARDIAN.13it’s the equivalent to like a gold plated gun now, in thought it’s the coolest thing ever but in practicality it’s useless and not best option. to me tho it’s got the cool factor like he said
@@vault_dwelIer when I can compare a delayed blowback AR in 9mm and it is almost half the weight, one third the price, last round bolt hold open, better ergonomics and uses Glock mags I tend to use the word laughable. So yes it's laughable in comparison when actually thinking about more than it's icon status.
8 месяцев назад
@@GUARDIAN.13 Awesome and laughable. You should take some logic lessons.
False. Honey badger dgaf. Honey badger never dies. Honey badger hates container ships and poors. Honey badger loves halo jumping and scuba diving. Honey badger smol and very angery. Honey badger protec, attac but most importantly fits in your backpac. You besmirch honey badger at your own peril.
Hearing the difference when it locks open on an empty mag is really neat and goes to show that what you are hearing is the action. I think I had always been interpreting the action sound as actually the sound of the round firing.
FYI, action noise can actually be relatively loud. Especially in very quiet guns. We discovered in testing that a well suppressed 10/22 actually has a louder bolt drop on an empty chamber than the actual report. Interestingly, there is also what we call the "brass dampening" effect: bolt drop on a loaded round or spent casing is significantly quieter than an empty chamber due to natural resonance.
Sound on videos is VERY misleading. There is a clear loud pop at the muzzle on both of these firearms. Yes, the action contributes, but these things still sound like 22LR IRL.
7:54 you can actually see the round leave the barrel, I don’t think I’ve ever seen that with a standard camera, the way it slows the round down is crazy effective
The Honey Badger sure is a superior gun but maaan dos the MP5 have style points! So if I had to pick a gun to fight with, it's the Honey Badger all the time but as a range toy and fun gun the MP5 will win every single time.
I know a guy who made a honey badge clone. He used a Dead Foot Arms for a folding brace and an Aero lower and a HuXWRX flow through can. With the flow though can, you don't really need to fiddle with an adjustable gas block. And the Dead Foot Arms uses a double spring action instead of a buffer weight. 100's of rounds from 125 grain to 220 grain and no jams. He did break a drop in trigger and had to swap it for a geissele. It's been a while since I talked to him. He may have had a jam by now, but I don't know.
You realize how genius Eugene Stoner's design is when you realize that a short barreled AR is the same length as, but lighter than, an MP5SD with the stock collapsed.
Chasing the "Velocity is fixed so the more weight the better." line of thinking, I recently got my .454 can out of jail and put it on my 45-70 1895 Marlin. 550 grains at 1000 fps or so... I haven't gotten it to the range yet and I have no legitimate use case for this thing, but it should be fun.
Man, I'm glad that it only took *check notes* 37 years to something finally surpass the MP5SD on pretty much everything, and it still has some advantages on some cases...and the S L A P.
That's a pretty big gap. You can assemble a "badgerlike" ar with almost no tools for 1/5 of the price of an SD in 9 these days. Love the classic slap too, but you can't argue with the modularity of the ar and the benefit of carrying 200+ gr. subs.
Held a MP5SD3 at a gun show, was chambered in 22 lr. it was ultra light. With integral suppressor, the caliber it is chambered in, and the telescopic stock, I imagine buying that would make for a person's favorite plinker they own. Sadly was only buyable for special people. I don’t know if it simply was a matter of the suppressor, gotta assume it is mostly because it is a stocked pistol. I forget if it said "for government purchase only." That is sad for it would be the best thing for every grandma to have.
Oh man, I'm so jealous of the rabbit hole you're about to go down. I wish i could experience Ian for the first time again. You have YEARS of Gun Jesus content to get through. Go check out the "What Would Stoner Do" series where Ian and Karl from InRange go through designing the AR-15 using Stoner's original design theory plus modern manufacturing/materials (which also includes clips of Stoner himself explaining his intention when designing the AR-15). Then rejoice when you realize you can go buy the result of their work. Or make your own version. I followed their blueprint, with some minor differences, and it's by far my favorite rifle I own! Edit: for reference, my iteration came out at around $1k. It includes a 14.5 FN CHF pencil barrel with pinned/welded A2 birdcage, the KP-15 monolithic polymer lower, KE Arms SLT-1 trigger, EOTech 512, and a 30+1 total weight coming in at just under 7.5 pounds. Took some time waiting for deals on parts, but completely worth it. Absolutely outstanding rifle.
Interesting. When I first heard of the 300 Blackout (and by chance found a case in some second had .223 brass I imported) my initial reaction was we had regressed to the days of the M1 Carbine which in its day was gap filler between pistol and sub machine calibres and full power rifles. There was even an experimental suppressed version of the M1 produced for the SOE. I would be fascinated by a comparison of the M1 and Honey Badger. Your contacts should be able to get you access to a suppressed version of the M1 (even maybe the original)
The M1 cannot use the heavy 220-250 grain bullets that make 300 Blackout worthwhile as a subsonic cartridge. The Blackout family of cartridges - and their unfortunately proprietary, nearly identical ancestors the Whisper family developed at SSK back in the 90s, are intended for use in normal-length rifle actions. The blackouts have shorter brass than usual in order to accomodate long, heavy bullets, but they have little in common with the vastly outdated Winchester Self Loading family of cartridges the .30 Carbine comes from. Also .30 Carbine doesn't match 7.62x39 ballistics the way supersonic .300 Blackout does.
You should look at the 350 legend it is essentially a modern version of the 30 cal ammo the M1 used. Its a 9mm bullet in a straight case .223 case. But i would challenge the use of the word "regression" It is a production representative of need. Heavier bullets with shorter cases and range are just better in a close quarters setting. Whether it's hunting terrorists in a cramped compound or hunting deer in heavy brush something in a handy package that hits hard out to 100yards is going to be better than a larger weapon with a longer range.
On the post shooting notes for the Honey Badger, the MCX effectively fixes all of these issues. An internal recoil system allows for a full size folding stock, fitting OAL and comfortable stock requirements. The two position gas system is designed to quickly be switched with no tools or a bullet from a subsonic to a supersonic configuration, reducing heavy overgassing. Finally, the SD handguard is a larger diameter than the one present here, resulting in usable MLok slots along the entire length, as well as enough of an insulating gap to prevent overheating in normal conditions.
It's crazy that that honey badger is the same length and a lot lighter. It looks like a much larger and heavier gun. Much better cartridge too, it's no wonder than most of the UK armed Police have switched to .300 blackout AR's over their old MP5's.
I built a 8” 300 blk, I also own a nobeske “ghetto blaster” and a suppressed Sp5. I have to say my tuned home built with a JP silent spring is by far the most enjoyable to shoot. The HB style stock seems to transfer more recoil than a normal AR stock.
The MP5 is a 9mm close quarters submachine gun, it's not really ment to be used the same way as a Honey Badger or an M4 that fire completely different types of ammunition.
Unfair comparison. The MP5SD shines as a submachine gun. While the 300blk Honey Badger is not as dependent on full auto fire. Also, if it was the non-SD version of the MP5, you probably would have gotten better long range accuracy out of it.
I set up a 300BLK with a law folder, not just because 'foldy cool', but I can swap buffers rapidly to match buffer weight with gas produced by specific ammo. Carbine buffers end up being the best middle ground, mileage may vary based on the gas port size. I found an aluminum variant of the Law folder's plug that goes in the BCG, and some ultralight (adjustable) buffers.
Just gonna copy this out of the description: "The MP5SD has massive aesthetic appeal, but I think the Honey Badger is pretty clearly the more practically effective of the two designs for the role they were designed for." The MP5 is a machinen pistole, you're missing the machinen part which is critical to it's operation. Sure the Honey Badger can replace the MP5 as a RIFLE, the MP5 has a semi auto setting for occasional long range shots but it's intended use is supposed to be in full auto. Comparing how fast they can spin the spinner when the MP5 is being used as an actual submachine gun would be a more apt comparison, with how smooth that thing shoots in full auto you can forget about measly doubles and triples, you could flip that thing with one half mag burst before you even have a chance to aim down at the bottom plate.
I might be misremembering, but I think they do have a video testing the MP5 on a spinner in full-auto. It isn't quite as simple as you describe, but short, well-timed bursts _can_ allow you to get an extra round or two on the plate before having to adjust your sights to the other side, and you _sometimes_ could spin the plate faster than you would with a semi-auto MP5. It wasn't a game changer though like you would imagine it to be and they certainly weren't spinning the plate with half-mag bursts on the top plate. All that being said, you have a point that the sub-machine gun aspect was left out of the comparison, but he does mention at the end of the video that the MP5 is the clear winner when it comes to controlled recoil or shooting tight doubles/triples. This point would logically extend to shooting in full-auto as well. In other words, if you had a full-auto Honey Badger and a full-auto MP5 you are going to see the more controllable recoil for the MP5 stand out for sure when comparing full-auto fire, but I can't imagine it would change the overall pros/cons (in my mind). Of course, I am more than happy to take one of each! Give me an MP5SD (with the Navy-style trigger pack because three different options for automatic fire is better than one, right?) _and_ a Honey Badger (in full-auto as well because this is my fantasy where I get two expensive firearms for free so the ATF can fuck off). ☺
Both those weapons have a part to play. From what I understand, if you want to take out the enemy without worrying about over penetration in CQB and to minimise your sound signature then the MP5 is the better option. However, if you’re in CQB or need a small weapon that’s already got excellent stopping power (5.56) then the Honey Badger is the way to go. Good vid!
It’s worth mentioning for running unsuppressed supersonic, 300blk only needs a 8-10in barrel to hit its efficiency plateau. Versus 16-20in for .223/5.56 and 14-18in for 7.62x39, with 10in and 8in considered bare minimum barrel lengths respectively. Where 300blk can go down to 5-6in.
A suggestion for shooting thistype of "stock" off-hand: put a tab-pull adjustable two-point sling on them with one point just below the attachment point of the buffer tube and the other on the side of the handguard near its base. Then adjust the sling so that instead of pulling the rifle into the shoulder, with both hands in the same position as pulling in, you push the rifle out against the sling. I use this technique with an AR pistol and find it's a much steadier hold of the rifle. Plus, with an AR pistol you avoid the whole "pulling the arm brace into the shoulder" ATF issue.
You're right on all accounts, however they're designed for different roles in mind. Mp5 great for repelling down embassy walls and wiping out PLO members. It has a higher mag capacity which makes it better for sneaky squirrel in an urban setting. The honeybadger is for sneaky squirrel kinda shite while in the suburbs or some Adobe village in Afghanistan or easten Ukraine. You'll be able to carry more ammo in a larger pack. That why the sneaky squirrels asked for it to be designed. Different mission expectations. Thanx for the video, I'm impressed by how far you've gone with the "dreaded spinner". You've come a long way since you started, I just miss you and Karl working together. You two were like peanut butter and jelly.
To put guns in the simplest terms: The heavier the gun, the less recoil. The lighter the gun and the stronger the ammo, the more likely you are to get smacked in the face from the recoil. So the longer range you want to shoot, the stronger a cartridge you need, meaning also the heavier a gun you should choose. Barrel weight is directly proportional to muzzle climb. That's why, for example, even just adding a foregrip can make your gun more accurate by weight balancing alone.
Jeez, how in gods name did you see that. For reference, go frame by frame on the shot taken at 7:37 and you can see the lead for one frame. Impressive!
Own both and love both. Funny thing is my Mp5SD (preban registered select fire gun, not a sear pack) costs a heck of a lot more ( mine was passed down to me) than a Honey Badger but much cheaper to shoot. Though HB is better for distance, parts and adaptability IMO. My 1979 SD is a collectors piece to me so it mainly a vault/safe queen and shoot my Dakota Tactical HK SP5 to SD conversion instead. Both rock though and totally hearing safe with supers or subs.
The AR platform is a known quantity. Pretty much all of its quirks and weirdness are completely understood. Plus because of its modularity you can basically do anything with it. It's going to take something truly revolutionary to replace it.
if we had a Ruger SFAR in 8.6 it would make the Honey Badger obsolete in a heartbeat - instead of needing to choose between proper rifle ballistics and defacto 45 ACP (depending on whether the magazine is supersonic or sub) you would get the power of a magnum cartridge with low recoil, no supersonic crack, and only a single ballistic trajectory to worry about
@@kevinbrittingham6774False. The Ruger SFAR weighs less than 7 pounds, and the barrel could be half the length with an 8.6 instead of a 308, which could further reduce it to 6-6.5 pounds. Also, it uses the same size receiver as a 5.56 AR, meaning its footprint could literally be made identical to the Honey Badger, but with a cartridge that has WAY fewer drawbacks. It could also use 25 round PMAGs, which really close the gap with 30 round capacity This rifle would be flawless
the SFAR has already been made reliable... just not by Ruger. The POF Rogue from 5-10 years ago had zero reliability issues and is the same designs the SFAR, it was just too expensive to become so mainstream.@@ericblair844
It's not just that 9 mm para is weaker, but the barrel is ported, that is, you're bleeding energy from an already weaker round. Of course the 300 Blackout is going to have much better terminal ballistics.
The thing is that the modified MP5 is firing standard velocity ammunition. The bleeding is bringing the muzzle speed down to subsonic velocity. This is seen as a feature with the model and allows the shooter to keep shooting subsonic even if all they can get hold of is standard 9mm. Problem is if you use subsonic ammunition it will bleed off some gas making it even slower. So the correct ammunition to use is standard loading normally supersonic ammunition.
@@blahorgaslisk7763 I once saw a guy in competition using a borrowed MP5SD, he didn't know not to use his subsonic ammo and as a result that gun required almost half a magdump to knock down a popper plate. Was pretty funny to see, it was like someone nerfed his gun.
@@aloadofbollocks988 not just that but it shoots much heavier bullets in the subsonic velocity range. 9mm can probably push a 147 at ~1100 or so in a peppy loading. 300 blk can shoot a 240 at 1050 loaded down.
After reading the title, for a moment I thought you were going to throw Honey Badgers at the enemy. I still think it would be effective. Slightly disappointed but I know better now.
Comparing an old gun to a new one will never be fair, but in terms of service, the MP5SD has done its duty and can retire with grace. Honey Badger looks really good.
The local Sheriff has Ian in speed dial for suppressors at this point, I'm sure. He might even get frequent flyer miles but now! A friend here in Minnesota applied for a suppressor on his match rifle and was up and running with it in about a year after first applying. Because, clearly reducing hearing damage should be a chore for the citizen and an allocation of resources on the government side. Sorry, I'll get off my soap box.
MP5SD: For storming buildings, busses and air liners. 3 round bursts always stay on target and the hostiles are always within effective range. Honey Badger: For insertion situations where you're not 100% sure the operation is going to be all slick. You also bring a single mag of supersonic, a knife, a few grenades, a 9 on your hip and a tourniquet. And you pray to god only the Honey Badger will see any action. Makes sense why SWAT wants the MP5SD and why special forces got a bit queasy at the thought of having to struggle beyond 100m.
If you want to use both sub and super sonic, the SIG Rattler seems to be a better option? thanks to the gas setting avaible instead of the pseudo DI of the Honey Badger?
@@KoyoteMaglen it's not included in some (at least) "big names" AR-15 even those in 300 BLK, and I don't remember exactly what Ian said in the video but it was like "the stock configuration Honey Badger isn't perfect when you want to change type of ammo 'on the go' / 'in fight'". And I'm 100% don't know is SWAT-like or GIGN-like units across the world are willing to pay a bit more to have this capability. Idk 🤷
Sounds like the CMMG Descent is the next step in 300. An adjustable gas block should resolve the issue with switching ammo. It's what I would have gotten if I didn't already have my 9mm upper from them with Pmag converted mags.
@@jaredchristlieb1531 it will run them but it’s more wear and tear. I asked one of the engineers at sig why they added the steel cam track and he said after a few thousand rounds the bolt will start smacking into the barrel extension instead of locking in. A DI gun shot for 10,000 rounds of 90/10 subs/supers would be fine. Flip it around or make it 70/30 and 20,000 rounds and you’ll have issues. Realize this is in the context of military contracts not what your average person is gonna shoot
So, I will start with this: 300blk has FAR better long range and energy on target than 9mm. The 300's ability to hot swap to supers also just makes it even better. The AR ergo's DOMINATE the MP5. This test was VERY fair, using similar setups. And maybe your MP5SD setup makes it more challenging than my MP5 with a suppressor, but I have made pretty reliable hits out to 150. Heck before I got it SBR'd (and before braces existed) i was getting hits at that range without a suppressor and without any stock, only using a strap. I am sure that has ALOT to do with teh SD bleeding off velocity compared to full bean 124NATO out of mine.
The mp5 is a 60 year old gun using ammo that is 123 yrs old, The Honeybadger on the other hand is a 13 year old weapon using 13 year old ammo. I am surprised it didn't do far better, given the associated costs. The other thing is the Mp5SD is designed primarily for burst firing not semi-auto.
i guess the lesson here is that we already reached a pretty solid position in terms of ballistic and now we are in a bit of a plateau with barely any advancements, not much we can do about it imo until we get widespread caseless ammo
The other thing some would not take into considering is penetration (or over penetration in this case). Yes the 300 blackout honey badger is far better in every aspect in open space where you are expecting to deal with the enemy and enemy alone, however in an anti-terrorist situation, that can potentially lead to over penetration which could inflict secondary wounds to civilians. That’s where a 9mm holds advantage because it is far less likely to over penetrate than 300 blackout. But in an overall sense, yep honey badger is essentially better in every way than the MP5SD EXCEPT that scenario alone.
In terms of lethality I don’t think subsonic .300 blk is going to differ much from 9x19 subs, both will need cns hits or multiple lung and heart shots. You get a tangible increase in lethality using .300 blk supers with a good bullet design where you can expect the great majority of combatants being put out of action by a controlled pair in the torso. Seems to me that the advantage of the Honey b is being able of taking out sentries a 100-150 m tops and mp5sd at 1/3 of that distance + increased ergos with Honey B
I understand the numbers for each and agree the HB is the clear winner. Having said that, the 12 y/o me watching Die Hard for the first time will ALWAYS prefer the MP5 regardless of the numbers.
well yeah there are only so many forgotten weapons to cover and he's been doing this long enough that he's pretty much covered them all. i'd rather see him talk about the most common and mundane guns out there than stop putting out content
Yeah I’d like to see a similar comparison with the Rattler, and maybe another MP5 replacement like the APC-9 /APC-9SD. Make a whole series on “MP5 replacements” lol
@@chipsterb4946 I was looking at the 5.5” barreled rattler… it can’t be that heavy… lol. It’s only like 18” long if you detach the stock. It’s tiny. That being said I don’t know the weights on either one and have never actually handled one either. I was a Marine Infantryman. Had 22 months of combat over three deployments to Iraq. I used an M4/203 with Optic, light, and a pac(whatever) IR light/laser designator, occasionally a quadrant sight, plus sling. Weighed a metric 💩ton. 😂 I must say that weapons manufacturers have made some advances since my day.
@@jastrapper190 actually the Rattler is 6 pounds. I was surprised the first time I picked one up. Honey Badger is 4-1/2 lbs. However, I’d rather deal with Sig Sauer customer service every day of the week and twice on Sunday based on personal experience with both them and Q.
@@chipsterb4946 I guess to get the function they have in such a compact package it would have to be pretty dense. lol I’m trying to guess what my rifle in the Corps on my last deplyment weighed. Off the top of my head I wanna say the M4 with magazine was 8 pounds and an M203 was 3 or 4 pounds loaded with a HEDP. Plus aCog which probably was a pound or two. Say 12 pounds. Six pounds! That’s like a feather. 4 1/2 is ridiculous… that weight is for little girls! 😂🇺🇸
It's crazy to think that the MP5 series is essentially obsolete and no longer "modern" with it being designed 50+ years ago. What's even crazier is thinking that in theory, both of these weapons are now made obsolete, by extremely cheap and modular ar platform carbines and PCC.
After action noise and suppressor size, powder choice is next for reducing sound. (loudness, pitch, and tone, depending on what you'd like to hear, or not). Also, I shoot gongs until I run out of elevation around 350 yards. A 30 minute rail will get me to a bit over 600. Not sure I'd bother trying with 9mm.
I think the case for supersonic 300 blackout (but perhaps not in the honeybadger bc of ergonomics) is that you get better terminal ballistics in a much smaller package. 6 inch barrel with a 5 inch suppressor.
3:20 with the notable exception of ammunition/magazines. Although thr increased lethality would mean you'd need less of it so we don't what the actual loadouts would be
I know the high speed guys don’t go full auto often/maybe at all; however, it would be nice to see a 1:1 on the platforms controllability in full send. I’d imagine that the SD would take the cake in controllability.
I think it goes without saying but theoretically the shorter the cartridge is the higher the theoretical rate of fire can be for a conventional semi auto firearm as the bolt, slide, or whatnot does not have to travel as far to eject a case, pick up a new round, and chamber said new round.
In game and in Real life, the honey badger wins hands down in the two departments that matter the most. It dont jam unless YOU jam it up and when you stiff arm point or shoulder the honeybadger its already point positive on target waiting for you to pull the trigger. Its aligned perfectly for snap aiming
