Catch Wrestling: Karl Gotch Toe Holds: Snake Pit U.S.A. 

That's unfair on a lot of British wrestlers of the time. Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks were very high profile, but there were literally hundreds of shows all over the country every month, and almost all of the guys had at least a bit of solid shoot training. Dynamite Kid, for example, trained at the Snake Pit for a while before finishing his shoot training elsewhere. The reason people like the Satoru Sayama, Akira Maeda and others came to the UK as young boys was to learn to shoot from the same people that taught their coach in the New Japan dojo, Karl Gotch. Meanwhile, in the late 70s and 80s, Billy Robinson was blowing people away all over the midwest, Canada and Japan as this freakishly good technician who knew techniques that nobody in American wrestling knew. The American shoot heritage had more or less already evaporated by then, as even their best legit fighters were good freestyle wrestlers, not shooters or hookers. (Billy's little brother Ernie was still a pretty big star in the UK, and a very highly regarded shooter in his own right.) In the UK though, you still had lads like Steve (now William) Regal and Rob Brookside learning their trade by shooting with tourists at the wrestling booth in Blackpool. It's very pleasing that those two now have a central role in the WWE Performance Center. You're right though. If Billy Riley and his top students had started a "Snake Pit Challenge" video series in the early 80s, everyone in the world would now be doing Lancashire rules instead of IBJJF.

@@XKenny77 I worked in a butcher's as a kid, and we got free tickets to wrestling events, in return for a poster in the window, so, I saw people like JH and BD doing their thing. As I said, I went on to train JJJ, and we laughed at wresting because we really thought it was a joke. I was training with the WJJF, and while it was typical 80s martial arts, with minimal live sparring, there were a group of us that pressure tested everything in a fairly unstructured way.. In retrospect, a lot of the English terms used by the WJJF betrayed clear kinks to catch wrestling. They were based in Liverpool, which isn't a million miles from Wigan.

If you get decent at both Catch and Judo you should be one very good Grappler. If you get into a fight your opponent should keep it a striking match. Unless they are a master grappler. Still I would think if you get good at both and learn how to combine the 2 correctly you should be a dangerous grappler. Seems like they would go together like Peanut butter and Jelly.

Darius Emrich 😂😂

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Swinging Southpaw Style Thank you for the kind words and support. The only one I am aware of ANYWHERE near you is in Niagara Falls. Obviously that’s not very close. Wish I could be more helpful. J. Bane

Snake Pit U.S.A. Catch Wrestling Association Thank you Coach Bane. I greatly appreciate the time and effort you make for responding. Much obliged Sir. And yes, Niagara Falls is a bit of a trek for a two hour training session a few times a week. Haha I’ve been training BJJ for nearly 18 months now, we’ll minus the last 2.5 due to this Covid business. And honestly I can’t say that I really like it. I don’t hate it, but........... While not CACC, would you consider a Combatics Grappling worthwhile? Or........ Thank you again for your input Sir. Kindest regards, Dave And during this time of Global....whatever....I do truly hope that you and all of your loved ones are staying healthy and safe. Should unfortunately a loved one be I’ll, I pray for a their speedy recovery. Cheers

Swinging Southpaw Style Thank you, same to you and your loved ones. Do you mean Combatives like Military Combatives?

Snake Pit U.S.A. Catch Wrestling Association I believe so Sir. Headline is Combative Submission Grappling. I know that there are several forms of grappling available to train. That said CACC to me, seems to be the most complete and practical system out there. And if I’m unable to find CACC, then the closest proximity to it would be my choice.

Swinging Southpaw Style Can’t hurt to try I suppose. I usually tell folks who are in your situation to find a solid BJJ school with a reputable Coach that has a strong No-Gi program that is more wrestling based and learn to infuse the Catch Wrestling techniques you pick up into your training or find a partner willing to drill with you after class at perhaps an open mat. - J. Bane

JudoMateo you may be thinking of Frank Gotch instead of Karl Gotch. Karl made these specific techniques popular in Japan.

No sir Frank Gotch was known for his toe hold long before Karl (I believe Frank chose his pseudonym and toe hold in honor of Frank). It certainly appears to be a pinning combination rather than a submission here gnarlmaster.tripod.com/gnarlmaster/toehold.htm. Maybe since there's a pain compliance element it can be used as a sub too.

JudoMateo we’re all well aware of Frank. These specific holds in this video we’re passed on from Billy Riley to Billy Robinson & Karl Gotch (Karl Istaz) to Minoru Suzuki & Masakatsu Funaki to Lions Den fighters vía Ken Shamrock as one of our main lines of Catch lineage. Then again from Billy Robinson directly to Coach Bane. Yes there are famous Frank Gotch toe holds. This is NOT them. These submissions in this specific video have nothing to do with achieving the pin. If you research any actual photos of Frank applying them he is doing no more than blocking the ankle and applying direct pressure based off that fulcrum. It’s on the back of one of our tee shirts and on the USA Catch Wrestling logo. Even the link you just sent shows exactly what I just described. These are quite obviously not the same submissions. They do however lead very nicely into the basic Frank Gotch Toe Hold. Thank you for your feedback

Snake Pit U.S.A. Catch Wrestling Association thanks for clearing that up as well 🙌🏽💪🏽♥️Catch Wrestling 4 Life

Karl Gotch liked the toe hold. In Catch, we don't differentiate between the straight ankle lock and a toe hold, many of the old hookers and shooters would have just considered it another toe hold. Anyway, Karl Istaz, took on Frank Gotch's name in honor of him. Karl Gotch's favorite hold was the straight ankle lock. Frank Gotch was a great wrestler at the beginning of the 20th century, he used the toe holds shown here both as hooks (submissions) and to set up his pins. The toe hold shown here is the one Frank Gotch made famous.

I was kinda asking more from a technical standpoint but not enough people cross trained between gotch, robinson and wicks before they died, like I know Ian Bromley had a chance to train with both Billy Wicks and Roy Woods, and I know theres a bunch of little technical things in the differences of the styles like billy wicks taught the crooked head scissors different than how billy robinsons students do it. Are you ted wurz on facebook? I think I've talked to you before lol

Yes that's me. The technical differences between those two holds are that they are two different holds. The Gotch toe hold is a twisting ankle lock and the one that Karl Gotch liked pressed the achillies heel into the ankle. The Gotch toe hold can be used to turn a guy, the other one is just a submission.

that makes sense because all the holds I know can be used as pins or submissions depending on whats going on but watching some of these videos are confusing due to the lineage differences, it kinda reminds me of when I was a kid and I didn't know the difference between goju-ryu karate and wado-ryu karate and I told my friend that what he was doing was wrong because it was different than what I was doing lmfao