Wow, just been watching your last two videos on Celsus and this just dropped. These are great videos - thank you! One of the problems with criticising the Bible today is that we have tools for understanding that go far beyond what was available to anyone at the time. Thus turning to allegory & reinterpretation seemed reasonable for latter Christians contending with scientific advances. But having this philosopher provide a rationalist using tools available at the time is really quite fascinating.
Thanks for watching Crispin and glad you liked the videos. Plenty more coming up ;) Yes allegory definitely was the natural fallback for believers as it became clear over the centuries that the bible tales and Christian dogma had fatal flaws. Credit to the deep thinking Greek philosophers who began commenting on the issue although its a great shame most of their works and critiques were destroyed on the orders of the later Roman Emperors.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 I just learned of Celsus from another of your videos. He is a delight. His work would likely have been lost, destroyed by the Christians, except that (as you said in another video) the lunatic Origen felt the need to rebut him, and quoted him at length.
@@danielgautreau161 Thx for watching! Always a chance his complete works will be found - just as various Christian scriptures like at Nag Hammadi or dead sea scrolls have been uncovered in recent years. We can hope!
Not an adequate presentation. Has that snarky neo-atheist lack of moral gravity. Read what the atheist Nietzsche has to say about how 1,000 years of Christianity was essential for the development of modern science.....
The Christian Fathers were worse in virtue, since they also said that one of the joys of heaven would be to enjoy watching the torments of the wicked from their heavenly state of bliss! Great videos. This Ex-Christian feels like he was well and truly duped by the church! I,m happy to be called a pagan. Peace to all xxx
Nothing remotely true about what you said. Worse, it’s oversimplified. You are doubtless a former Protestant, I’d bet my next paycheck on that. In which case, your knowledge on the church fathers was already poor and lacking. Enjoy your new life of LARPing.
Listening to this just reminds me to me of how glad I am that I got out and how I can't see Christianity as any other thing than one of the most Evil things that's ever been foisted on humanity's back.
The invoking of the fear of everlasting and unimaginable punishment of some sort by the divine in an afterlife is arguably the most terrible and damaging aspect of Christian belief.
@@rickw3243 Certainly fear and violence was used aplenty. Its very difficult otherwise to entirely change a peoples' ancestral religious and cultural beliefs to a totally different alien system of middle eastern origin
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 I really learn from your lectures & enjoy your analysis & channel. You have the talent to really make your lecturers quite exciting & I am especially interested in Ancient Rome.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 And if Islam too. It's Hell that compelled me to try to convert my non-Muslim friends and got me into apologetics just to realize how shallow arguments for God and divine revelations are. That with the disgust of the concept of Hell lead me out of Islam, and also persuaded me to stay away from Christianity too.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 every video you do on religion from 200b.C. to 1000 year iam in... Iam a junky for that period, interracion between pagans, christian, jews, muslims....
"it keeps girls out of the evils of DANCING and THEATRE" ah yes the most terrible of sins also wasn't theatre in ancient greece and rome performed by men alone in the first place?
Thx for watching! Yes true men only performed in theatre although Theodora wide of Justinian was an actress so wasn't entirely unusual. Certainly Christians of that period were far more puritan and dancing was a no no.
It’s too bad we do not have more Philosopher works like Celsus from antiquity. I’m so sure that the works of these type have been censored,burned ,and destroyed. The philosophers of Athens and Rome knew two thousand years ago that Christian philosophy was inherently wrong on all levels.
Thank you for your reply,I have been looking for the Devine since I was a teenager . I never realized how thoughtful and precise they were. Christianity brain washed me. I need to recover from my trauma
You know what they say! "If you can't beat them, cry persecution and systematically use your influence to burn every copy of criticism from the Earth!"
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Thank you - I can't believe the ideas of primitive people living in different times are being blindly followed by some of the best brains of today Shows how easy it is to brainwash even the best
@@ramaraksha01 Well I suppose its partly due to our inbuilt reverence for the past and also our strong empathy for the religion our ancestors (and parents) believe in and which for better or worse becomes part of our identity. But this can be counter productive when it comes to religions and cults with beliefs that go completely counter to science and reason.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 The silence is what frightens me - where are the educated asking questions as I am doing? Why is God acting like a cheap dictator? Dividing his own creation based on religion? Are billions to be condemned to gas chambers in hell simply based on their belief? So we have Hitler Gods that are the top Gods in the 21st century! What does that say about us as people? Where is the education? the morality? And where are the philosophers? All I see with Heaven is billions of people just sitting about doing nothing, living like shameless prostitutes/leeches do down here sponging off their rich Sugar Daddies Every time I ask what does one DO in Heaven? Any WORK? Can you describe a DAY? Just One day? Theists run away! Fortunately for them the media and the educated are not asking these questions Philosophers keep asking questions like what is the meaning of life? how come none ask what is the meaning of Heaven? Billions sitting about sponging off God for eternity? Where are our morals? values?
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 In our daily life we stress never begging for anything, EARN our way in life. Plenty of videos of sports guys or others proudly pointing to things around them & saying "I EARNED every bit of it" And yet when it comes to religion the very same people blindly nod as it says "Heaven cannot be earned, the only way in is down on one's knees, beg & grovel your way in!" What happens to our morals? Even more disturbing - where are you and your fellow philosophers? You go to a corrupt country or place & the sleezy official says "you can't earn what you want" and no one has to hit you on the head to realize what he is asking for Why is it that not one is saying religion is using this "heaven cannot be earned, the only way in is thru our God" to push conversions, gain members? Using sleezy corrupt methods! Where are the educated? the moral?
There is also the fact that most pagans did not think most of death and prefered life. Is sad that today, the word religion basically means "afterlife", like "if you worship the right god and so on". Death is a misterious thing that lies beyond us, but most pagans did not want to encourage any pursue on death, because they valued life, so for all of them the realm of death was dark, shadowy and contemplative, thus people would apreciate life more (contrary to christians who hates life). And the "reward" was only to EXCEPTIONAL people. For the egyptians, it was for the Pharaos, for the Greeks, the Isle of the Blessed was for the Heroes (people who were able to do "superhuman" feats so great that they could be immortalize in history exactly because of that feat, thus defying Fate itself and can continue to "live" even after death). For the nordics it was great warriors and so on. In death everyone is equal, so the idea that everyone will have rewards or punishment is bizarre. If you want to have a reward, them you would have to be great in this world, the world of the living. Making Heaven a easy place to acess (believing in the "right" God) just make people hope for death itself. And hell is also easy to acess in monotheism, just believe in the wrong thing.
Origin was a universalist. He defended the notion that the threat of everlasting punishment was useful, but denied that it was taught in Scripture itself. He especially loved 1 Corinthians 15:28 as a proof text for his universalism. Many other church fathers were universalists as well.
In relation to this, the perduasion of going to hell or heaven, would you do an analysis on the book of revelations btw? I find it the most abhorrent book in the new testament in my personal opinion.
Hey, when you said you wouldn't be cast as a heretic for unbelief. If that is the case why was their such controversy over, The Christians and Jews not making sacrifices to the emperor, and worshipping state gods?
It was more a case of Christian contempt and intolerance for other (pagan) belief rather than not sacrificing to the Emperor. After all the Jews were given a dispensation not to worship the Emperor and could generally abstain from all pagan customs and traditions.They weren't forced to participate.
More like a warrior of the state and the rich. He claimed only the lower class, could believe such ridiculous claims of the Christian faith. In my opinion this does not sound like a great guy.
He is going entirely against early Christian thought I'm afraid. None of the early Christians interpreted the numerous references to Hell in the gospels as metaphorical
Celsus was the earliest polemicist we have extant works for. There was also Porphyry and of course the Emperor Julian (the apostate) who both wrote against Christianity as well but in later centuries
So interesting that there are many people on this very earth that would tell you that they have experienced this very hell right here on earth. Why is it so hard to believe that existence in the absence of God - everything that is good, positive loving - would not be beyond any kind of suffering imaginable. Funny, I have no problem imagining it.
Yes, in the Myth of Er, but it wasn't permanent for most people as I remember. I he had Socrates say a particular tyrant would be punished eternally, which you could argue would always be out of proportion no matter what the person's deeds were.
I've looked into this somewhat just a bit and it seems Origen had the wrong Idea of heaven the idea of an earthly paradise a new Jerusalem has always been a biblical idea the conceptions of an earthly paradise where god dwells among humans that has always been a biblical Idea. Ideas of modern heaven and hell actually pop up with Dante's inferno rather than the bible. To respond to the claim the early church saw hell as a very real threat 1 has to be careful when saying the early church they had disagreements on the nature of hell Jesus called it an outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth and a spiritual fire burns deeps this isn't any physical torment it's better to say hell is 1 bad day continuing on for eternity until your left broken. Heaven and hell though are really the same place it completely depends on how you view gods light as god is a consuming fire so if you are not under his veil of protection than by nature his presence will feel like a hell. Also, Celsus called nature divine, and he thought the parts of nature are also equally divine in the concept that they to are gods, so then I would have to ask him. Is god a murderer ? Does god rape ? Does god commit child infanticide? Does god decay away like everything in nature does ? Is god subject to natures morals ? There is a reason why nature is demonized in the bible because it's so cruel. Because in the bible the morality espoused in anti what our nature calls us to do its anti lust, its anti polygamy its anti homosexuality as god set up marriage as a holy union between man and women it's anti most of the things animals in nature practice in fact nature in all its vices is cruel and profane. Because the god of this world that rules nature is cruel and profane which is lucifer before lucifer took this earth away from Adam there was no Physical death on the earth the animals didn't eat meat in the garden there was 2 pairs of every animals and they were all monogamous they didn't commit child infanticide as to kill a child is to profane the image of god. And if man was just like every other animal why do we consciously try to create moral systems that sets us apart from every other animal in not just 1 aspect but 10 to 20 aspects I mean why do we even have man made morality at all and not the law of nature which commands that the weak should die and that you should hate your enemy only in moral systems where you look at the spiritual aspect of it can this start to make sense. I mean in the Pagan myths which are really just personifications of nature I mean all of them from the Sumerian faiths, Greek faiths, Norse faiths they all seem to be fertility cults which celebrates the cyclical nature of life in this model death is to be celebrated because it leads to new life so ultimately death is good and there is no inherently moral arbiter saying it's evil because the gods in paganism are not supernatural at all their very naturalistic they are personifications of nature spirits and why would natures morality ultimately be wrong if they are personifications of nature ? Christianity inverses this myth and that is the reason why it spread so far because it impels us to act higher than just animals, and it gives us a divine purpose in life. Ever notice that before Christianity Homosexuality was considered or that there used to be literal Olympic stadiums filled with young men like Christianity completely subverted the narrative.
Oh, yes, homosexuality, even more than the blasphemy of the holy spirit, is the most unforgivable sin. Or that's how it comes off to us LGBTQ+ people when (some of) you guys fulminate against it. At least you weren't like Paul who slagged our same-sex attractions as "unnatural" and as "vile affections", I'll give you that much.
Since HELL is a Celtic word, concept and religious belief from the 7th century, how could anyone have written about it before that? Are we taking great artistic freedoms based on other people's ignorance?
@@RandomGuy-sn3ne No, actually, HELL is a concept that did not exist in the 1st century. If anything Jesus would have spoken of Sheol which is the GRAVE where both the righteous and unrighteous go. HELL is where evil people are punished for their evil. It was invented by the Celtic People. It is simple to LOOK IT UP as opposed to having an incorrect opinion.
@@g.rayhowell4289 That's not accurate at all, the Bible clearly describes a hell for everlasting torment. It's in the book of Daniel 12:2, and Jesus himself quotes this verse in Matthew 25:46 describing the sheep and the goats.
@@RandomGuy-sn3ne My point is you are being lied to. the Word HELL, the concept of an everlasting place of torment for sinners is a CELTIC RELIGIOUS BELIEF from the 7th century. BEFORE the 15th century when King James had HELL added to HIS BIBLE, there was only Sheol for the Hebrews, which is simply the grave, a place for good and evil people. Some bibles now say HADES in stead of HELL because THEY KNOW that HELL IS NOT REAL. And HADES which is from the much older religion of the GREEK GODS is ALSO a place for good and evil people alike. The concept of an eternal place of torture and harassment by demons is CELTIC not Hebrew and Not GREEK. Your religion is a LIE. The HEBREWS always said SHEOL the GREEKS always said HADES, the ENGLISH said HELL because it is from THEIR ISLAND that the idea comes from.
@@RandomGuy-sn3ne HELL is a Celtic WORD that has a CELTIC meaning, the HEBREW word was Sheol, look it up, it is a place for the dead, both good and evil. Many modern bibles use HADES instead, but Hades the GOD is from Greek Mythology, and has existed for much longer than the Hebrew gods. Hades the God is not evil, he does not punish anyone, but once you visit his realm, he does not let you leave (unless you are a god) He takes in good and evil alike, and does not punish or reward them. So, your TRANSLATIONS are wrong. You can look up Greek God history and we can trace HADES HIMSELF back to the writings of HOMER, which are older than anything in the bible by thousands of years. You can also look up the first use of the word HELL, it is from the 700s. The vikings invaded England, and they took Celtic brides, so the Term HELL, and it's belief system was transferred to the Nordic areas, where it CHANGED, imagine that, religions changing, to both the Goddess HEL and her abode HELL. Since Christianity was then spreading to the Scandinavian regions, there was a merger of HELL into the belief system of Christinsanity, but it is not the Christinsanity that you believe in today. But if you go back to the original HEBREW writings, it is always SHEOL a place for ALL THE DEAD, and if you read the GREEK writings by the cults that came later, they used HADES. But King James had a LOT of Celtic subjects in his country when he created his King James Version of the Bible. So, he incorporated it into his TRANSLATION even though it was WRONG so that his SUBJECTS would accept it. His grandfather had kicked the Catholics out of England and created his own church with him as the intercessor for God. So, HIS CHANGES were ordained by HIS GOD and when his grandson became KING and The KEEPER OF THE WORD OF GOD, his changes too were ORDAINED BY GOD because he was the King and Defender of the Faith. But, the Catholics kept on adding and removing books from Their version of the Holy Bible also, and Martin Luther over in Germany took the bible as it was in the 1500s and used that one, ignoring the changes by both the Catholics and the King of England. If you study the History of YOUR version of the Bible, you will soon learn all the lies you have been told about it. You can READ any of them though, and see that the god depicted is childish, stupid, incompetent and evil.
"Do good things because they're good" is absolutely asinine. What things qualify as good or bad? The golden rule only gets you so far when there's a billion and a half vices or external pressures that encourage you to break it. Try reforming a broken person with platitudes. It fundamentally doesn't work.
The Norse have something that Odin and Freya take the best warriors. So die violently basically lol just don't Speak about torture and death when atheists have done the world's share.
It's not modern just look in Egypt long before Christians.pharoah is on endless dark path of trial and tribulations. Each day travel into the dark after life with beast . Haiti always had these types of rewards systems. But even in christianity your in limbo in a waiting place until Jesus returns. The same haiti jews , greek and so many in do European eternal faiths
There’s nothing in the original scripture to suggest a belief in a heaven or hell; only a the ‘world to come’. As with many things, it had to be lifted from elsewhere to give it more appeal. Christianity being a ramshackle mixture of Judaic mythos and Hellenic thought explains this schizophrenia.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Thanks for understanding. I really DO enjoy the content of your videos. Glad to know you intend to keep the "uhs" to a low roar. :-D
Heaven begins at the spring equinox and ends at the autumn equinox (six days Gen 1). Hell begins at the autumn equinox and ends at the spring equinox (six nights Gen 1). This is modified when the first night (Libra) is added to the six days (Aries thru Virgo). This left five nights (Scorpio thru Pisces) representing the evil winter season of hardship. See Rev 9.5, where Scorpio is the leader of the evil five months/signs of Scorpio thru Pisces.
