Thaddeus is the betrayer closest to Nurgle. He fears death, and he fears losing that which he loves most- his chapter. He was forced to contemplate his own mortality, and the loss of everything he cared for most, and in that moment of weakness, he succumbed and damned himself. He was willing to pay any price to avert change. That is the preferred method by which the servants of Nurgle lure victims into the Plague Lord's stagnant, ever-decaying embrace.
Nurgle embraces change... consistent, stagnant change. Cycles of death and rebirth. What leads people to Nurgle is not just fear of death, but acceptance. As Ulkair said ‘his refusal to accept death is an offense to grandfather Nurgle’ Nurgle also accepts and love all life, the gross as well, when from the imperium you get only coldness and command. In Nurgle there is community and connection
I love the fact that at 2:30, Jonah just SHUTS DOWN Thaddeus completely. He can't even answer, because the only argument for serving Ulkair just went down.
Except it didn’t. Aside from Thaddeus clearly not being invincible, there is no evidence that Ulkair lied. Jonah said that there was no demonic hand in the victory over the hive mind, specifically referencing his psychic battle with it and the bio toxin. But Thaddeus did not claim Ulkair assisted with those. He just said that Ulkair let the Litany of Fury through the warp to get to typhon. Given how tyranids generate a shadow in the warp, which would make anything involving it difficult, it’s not implausible that the ship wouldn’t have gotten through except for tremendous power- like that of a greater daemon. And since Jonah, being a psyker, was so affected by and focused on the hive mind, it’s not inconceivable that he missed something.
@@alisonpurgatory85 think what Jonah is saying is that his fighting with the hive mind is what let the Litany of Fury break through the shadow/warp, and that he knows no daemon aided him in doing so.
I like his betrayal more and more everytime i watch/hear it. It just seems so realistic, that this naive "child" gets tricked through good intentions and falls into corruption
A shame the script throws away those intentions with that last line. "Ulkair made me unstoppable." It makes it seem like he's just descending into megalomania like any other Chaos Lord.
Thaddeus, an idealist who was tired of having no choice but to fight and die against more powerful ennemies, when Ulkair offered his help, his betreyal against his brothers' lives, he made the most important choice in his life, and the last. He is a true hero, ready to damn his own soul to save his friends.
A shame the script throws away those intentions with that last line. "Ulkair made me unstoppable." It makes it seem like he's just descending into megalomania like any other Chaos Lord.
Blazer, your comment is dogmatic and not nuanced. You blindly think chaos cannot be heroic? Heroism often involves rebellion, of which there would be none without chaos
Thaddeus reminds me of Lorgar. "You chose this fight, not I!" Bruh, you literally joined a daemon and traitor legion. Did you seriously not see this coming?
There's just something about that speech Thaddeus made before the fight- all his other remarks seem to indicate that he was genuinely remorseful over what he did, but that bit? If anything, it shows just how truly corrupted to the core he was.
When you get down to it, everything Thaddeus did if he was the Traitor would've been unnecessary. He doesn't make the bargain with Ulkair in all other scenarios, and the Blood Ravens survive the Tyranids anyway. As Jonah says, he damned himself for nothing.
@Termojard I'll have you know that I'm slimmer now than I ever been... ...Oh wait. Your talking about the daemon. In that case - you got the right idea there trooper. Carry on.
@Gjkl345 on the first paragraph: Okay I phrased that wrong: Maybe I gave the impression that I said that souls/prayers HAD to go through a middleman before reaching Nurgle. That wasn't what I meant. My point was that I disagreed with Nurgle nessiary receiving them first since the daemon themselves are sometimes worshipped in their own right.
@firelord699 Again yes and no. They do reflect the gods personality but they're not simple avartars. They do have some limited personalities and free will. I suppose you could compare to a clone; they're not going to have the same personality due to the difference of experience. Not a great comparsion I know, but its the best I can do. The latest edition do have greater daemon special characters like kairos Fate weave and Skarbrand the Exiled as well as M'kachen from WFB edition 5.
What happened to Thaddeus then? We know that Avitus was the traitor, FC was sent to the eye of terror, Tarkus,Cyrus,Martellus were in retribution with Diomedes,Davian Thule was deployed to Typhon,Jonah Orion died in the final mission of retribution (you can see his corpse near to your final HQ). So what heppened to Thadeus?
"One so young to bear the burden of a space marine." "He will grow no older, Librarian." I empathized with this betrayal the most, but I remember it being much sadder than it actually was. More pity from Jonah, than condescension.
@@masterofoffending3908 Late to answer, but doing some math and using the lore, this should be the age of everyone in the game. Diomides between 950-800 years old, Gabriel 750-600, Thule 550-400, Tarkus 550-400, Avitus 399-350, Cyrus 375-325, Aramus Heigel around 300-250, Thaddeus 150-100. Yeah, Thaddues is just too young for a Space Marine, even more to be a sgt. I based the calculations on the fact that in the game, it is said that Thule rose up thru the ranks 400 years before the tyranid invasion and seeing that he has only 2 service studs, that means that every stud is around 200 years of service for the Blood Ravens.
Thaddeus seems like he was another case of Kyras sabotaging the Blood Ravens by intentionally promoting the wrong people. That’s or Thaddeus came into command because the Tyranids ate everyone above him. He was strong, but still young and naive.
_"These are not xeno heathens nor monstrosities tainted by the Warp. These are oblivion's bastards... Once our brothers-in-arms... Long since become traitors through contact with the Warmaster Horus. Now, they are the Despoilers of faith! The Chaos Space Marines! For them, there is none of the Emperor's mercy... Only death and damnation!"_ - Brother Gerhart, Sword Brethren of the Black Templars
What he did was foolish, but not unbelievable considering he was the youngest and greenest of the main characters. He was simply desperate enough to trust Ulkair during the war with the Tyranids, and its resolution was proof enough that yes, he had done the right thing. Space Marines are not perfect, and Thaddeus is not the first greenhorn who got fucked up by Chaos, you should read Solun Decius' backstory (found on Lexicanum) for a similar, if far more atrocious, example.
+ShadowAimai Magnus was fooled by Horus; by which Tzeentch planned it to occur so that he would have Magnus. The Emperor sent Leman Russ to bring Magnus to Terra after the Thousand Sons' Primarch tried to warn his father of Horus' betrayal. Horus spoke with Russ and told him the truth, from one perspective alone without stating that why Magnus had used sorcerous powers. With Russ convinced that Magnus needed to die, he attempted to do just that. Seeing Prospero in flames and his warriors dieing, Magnus thought his father had ordered it and appealed to Tzeentch to save him and the remains of his legion. Following this, he became the Daemon Prince of sorcery his powers increased dramatically and his soul belonged to Tzeentch. Without knowing that it was really Horus who had Russ attempt to kill him, he joined him in destroying the Imperium...
+Gautam Ankit He made a choice he wanted to. Ulkair did help him. Demons such as Ulkair can easily do things like that. If you were to see your friends, initiates and thousands or millions of quardsman die, would you do a bargain like that? Blood Ravens hate demons, chaos and they are right. But that doesn't make Ulkair's doings are untrue. He opened the warp, just like how Tzeench helped Magnus.
his despair was feeding Ulkair and forced thaddeus to make a Bargain with the great unclean one but ambitions and hope of all blood ravens Feed the Great Tzeentch hahaha
As far as I understand it, each chaos god has a daemon prince that's their top guy, and then a greater daemon and Primarch who are roughly on par with each other. Khorne, for example, has Doombreed, followed by An'ggrath and Angron.
No, it's Avitus. Tarkus said he served on Kronus with the traitor and only he and Avitus were on Kronus. And if you listen the muffled message they decoded, it's sounds like Avitus.
To sum all the sergeants' reasons for betrayal: Cryus: Driven mad by the Chapter's incompetent leadership Tarkus: Tried to save the Blood Ravens by damning himself to Kheyos. Avitus: Driven mad by what the chapter has become. Thaddeus: Wasn't faithful enough to the Emprah, and so he thought a daemon helped them. Jonah: Was forced by a daemon of Nurgle. Martellus: Grudge against the Blood Ravens for abandoning him after his Thunderhawk crashed/ Chaos had working tanks and the loyalists didn't.
@vnnk3 Forgive my intrusion if you already know this bit of back ground lore but- - Ulkare isn’t a god. Ulkare is a Greater Daemon in service to the god Nurgle, the Lord of Decay. Ulkare is but shaped in his masters image. That said it has been noted that in 40K verse that "the difference between a daemon and a god is but a matter status".....and status is transitory….
Worshiping a god does nothing to increase his power. Lust, sexual decadence for example automatically strengthen Slaanesh. His worshippers engage in activities that strengthen said god.
Poor Thaddeus, in his situation i also think i would have made that choice... It is one thing to die, but to know that you can save your friends and yet do nothing... I wouldn't be able to handle that.
"He asked so little in return." That's because he knew you would end up giving him the things he didn't ask for. The power of Chaos is overrated, the lore, or maybe it was one of the novels, I don't know, has an instance of Daemon Prince, Magnus the Red, the fallen Primachs of the Thousand Sons no less, getting badly hurt in a fight with Chapter Master, which Magnus still won, but still. An ordinary Space badly hurt him.
So my question is....If Avitus is the the betrayer, Then what happens to Thaddeus? Cause basicly every character is accounted for in Retribution, Although the Force Commander thing is a bit wierd
Well never know I guess, no canon records as to what happen with aramus and thadeus. But if I were to believe, the FC awas appointed as 4th company captain and both thule and thadeus are under his command. As we see in retribution, harus exile himself while Cyrus decided to oversee Diomedes along with martellus. Others like jonah/angelos are focused elsewhere, probably fighting the black legion and kyras aramus and other should also be there alongside angelos.
Considering how useless Thaddeus is in game (assault marines are made of cardboard), my bias against him really wasn't helped when I got him as traitor. Mind, I did it on purpose (ish, I gave him more corruption in hopes he would be a little more useful - I had no idea about the traitor outcome at the time), but even then, he's just such a sack of rocks.
Thaddeus's squishy gameplay is why I liked Cyrus and Avitus in the second game so much. They had this really cool ability to take up space in the party's slots and make Thaddeus fuck off for the rest of the game.
@Gjkl345 Ah but Nurgle is better known and worshipped than any of his vassal daemon so thus is far more powerful (since 40k does that fruity 'worship give a god his power' trope). Also by your own theory - if Nurgle receives a fraction of the power received by his vassal then surely the collective worship of Nurgle’s vassal would make Nurgle cumulatively more powerful than any of his singular vassal? ...Yeah I’m aware this is starting to head into troll logic territory.
1:37 Still, how could you even trust that? That's called LOSS LEADING. It would mean that Ulkair would just get you on the hook for a bigger price, even if that was true. This is the kind of behavior you would expect from the Astra Militarum, not the actual BROTHERS OF BATTLE for crying out loud.
@MrBlush11 The biotoxin FC Hair-gel's strike force injected into the hive mind disabled it's ability to block out warp-based travel and Jonah was still alive to guide them out.
@OlaftheFlashy Truth be told. When I said "status is transitory" I just meant it as enigmatic way to end a post.... ....while at the same time acknoweleging that vnnk3 was entirely wrong; Greater Daemon are worshipped as demi gods in their own right and are cut from the same cloth as the god (formed from emotions & desire/shape by faith). God, I wasn't expecting the Inquistion....
On A. Ah...actually...I done goofed here. When I first read your post I misread it. Now I reread it realise that you meant you meant a daemon would need a lot of followers to challenge a god, followers who would be empower said god by proxy. Fair point. That were hole in my theory lies that I was conceeding. Really it depend on your view on point B on whether a daemon can become powerfull and independant enough to rebel.
I like Thaddeus. He or Thule is my fourth choice. FC and Jonah Orion combo is imba and Cyrus is way too freaking imba. I could clear maps without super strong bosses in less that 6 or 7 mins on hard mode using detonation and demolition charges after I've fully upgraded his energy for infiltration. Cyrus is not good in bosses fight though. FC and Jonah combo is enough to beat any boss. With Jonah, you can keep the FC alive at all time.
@Gjkl345 "You just admitted that Nurgle is the one receiving all the souls first" Quiet the opposite - he's the ultimate destination that the souls trinkle down to from his subbornate daemon. Point A. And....the vassals of my vassals is ultimately my man. Point B. That were the question lies- could a subbornate that owes it existance to a god ever gain the free will to cease being a subbornate?
@MrBlush11 It's Tyranid fluff, the hive mind makes warp-based travel around it nearly impossible when it's alive, and the rest were canon events in the first DoWII.
@OlaftheFlashy Skarbrand was the greatest of the Bloodthirsters but Tzeentch made him get a little too excited and so he attacked Khorne. It wasn't his fault, but hey, this is khorne we're talking about..
@TheSonOfDumb Thaddeus didn't want to fight them. I doubt he believed Kyras when he made that prediction. When he told them he saved them all, he was trying to get them to stop fighting.
Most Space Marines are based on actual ancient Greek and Roman names.(Some of them are also taken from Victorian English and Medieval Greece-Byzantium and Germany). Ah,and for sorry for the late reply.
@nrevelations777 Again true... but the not the whole story. The daemons are a piece of their god and reflect their gods personality but the daemon, over time, develops a personity of their own. Again its Chaos - its schizophrenic by nature. Also all Daemons in 40K have names: ie one or more given names and a "true name". Knowing the latter actually gives a person a little power over them (with the empathise on "a little")
no, knowing the true name gives you a SHITLOAD of power against them, it's the only reason that kaldor draigo, along with the current grand master and an entire companies worth of grey knights, were able to banish mortarion--after all dying of course, save for draigo.
force commander hair gel and Thaddeus were both branded as renegades so they are currently on a crusade against anything chaos (probably inducted into the black templars ranks)
