Kabal was using two moves and he actually is good because pretty everything he does, he does great But I knew since I noticed Cyrax what was going to happen exactly, and it didn't disappoint, Cyrax is the combo master of MK
Cyrax has a few broken moves actually, down 4 (which is like a sweep dash kinda) his bombs are well u saw, the net is also ridiculous and his standing 2 is one of the best anti airs in the game, cyrax is great overall, kaball is the best rush down character and the best zoner tho he has like 10 of the best moves in the game
@@naejimba The absurd part about that super is that the move, like all command grabs in SF2, doesn't actually come out unless it hits, as it doesn't have any whiff animation. Even if Claw spams the super input, he doesn't actually lose his meter until the super lands. Claw was quite the privileged bastard back in the day, wasn't he. XD
@@the_bookworm8281 Ngl the unwasteable super is something I wish Vega/Claw would've kept, especially in SF4 and 5 where he sucks. That probably still wouldn't be enough to make him viable in those games but it'll at least be something unique that's good for him. The way it is in ST is kinda jank though so maybe instead of having an auto super for free, they could make it qcf x2 out of wall dive so it can still be baited but the meter won't be at risk of being wasted until after he's already in the air.
As a Cable main myself, I'd say the aerial Hyper Viper Beam is the cherry on top, not the sole reason why he's top tier. His tools are very solid overall and syncs well with many characters, whether he's on point or as an assist. The Hyper Viper Beam is the reason he can punish most mistakes. But to facilitate that, Cable also builds meter quickly and safely if you know what you're doing. Those grenades and aerial gunshots are downright obnoxious, while controlled use of the regular aerial Viper Beam can just chip away and build meter safely, with any hits that land becoming an easy full screen hit confirm for a super cancel thanks to its very generous cancel window.
An obscure and overlooked example, Andy Bogard in the very first Fatal Fury has one move, Zaneiken, that is so broken that he completely dominates the entire game. It's 11 frames startup, active for well over 30 frames I think, giant hitbox in front of him, and he's +12 on block with only about 30 frames charge required so he can go right back into it. There is no move in the game fast enough to counter it except if maybe you're a boss character, and you also can't mirror match, so Terry and Joe are SOL. You can maybe trade but it's always in Andy's favor. Player 2 wins before the match even starts since their cursor starts on Andy. PVP wasn't the focus so go figure, but it's one of the most broken moves in a fighting game period. Other players cannot stop it if they're on the receiving end.
You forgot to mention that Vegas super charge only gets used up on confirm. If you do the super motion to jump off the wall and you don’t confirm the super you still keep your super charge.
melee jiggs is the embodiment of this for me. bair is your spacing tool, it combos into itself, its disgustingly big. shit probably does your taxes too
Falco laser is also arguably an example. Falco has other amazing moves but without laser there's no way he'd be able to keep up with the top tiers in melee
Bair is broken but I don’t think she would be top tier without rest. It can kill at 0% and can be confirmed from most of her moves. There’s no puff without rest
@@trashman1791 peach float is another good one. she has no safe aerials, almost no options from ledge, horrible neutral, and severely nerfed recovery without it
One of my favorite examples of 1 move carrying a character to broken territory is Dairou from Mortal Kombat Deception. With him, you can kind of ignore the rest of his toolkit, because he has a special move called the Tombstone Drop: one of the most broken special moves in Mortal Kombat history, which is saying a lot since Noob Saibot's Ghost Ball from Trilogy and Sektor's Homing Missile from Gold exists. It is an attack where Dairou falls backwards, sends shockwaves out, and he bounces back to neutral stance. It is a move that: -> Is 3 frame startup -> Is unblockable -> Tracks the opponent fullscreen -> Recovers near instantly -> Low profiles projectiles -> Launches for a full combo Only way to avoid this move is to jump.... yeah good luck trying to jump an unreactable fullscreen move in a game where jumps are slow. If this sounds a bit much.... then that is because it absolutely is. lol The move singlehandely makes Dairou #1 in the game. One thing to note is that he isn't #1 in the Gamecube version in the game, as that version was released later with nerfs to the move.
Earlier this month on Twitter someone described ArcSys' approach to fighting games as 'make it funny before you make it well designed' and Broly is one of the poster children of this ethos.
Claw's wall dive is disgusting.... but I'd argue he would be top tier WITHOUT IT. He has the fastest walk speed in the game, combined with the second longest reaching normals. That ALONE is a dangerous combination to give any character, and makes him a footsie god. His jumps are fast, perfect for jumping in or avoiding fireballs. He has WAAAY too many things that are safe on block including: two different backflips that makes him immune to damage and one of them can damage an opponent, as well as his rolling crystal flash that does crazy chip damage, AND a slide kick that can trade with fireballs and is safe on block if spaced correctly. Certain matchups he doesn't want to go up in the air, yet he completely dominates without it. His only weaknesses are being easy to stun, low damage output, and lower health. ALL of those don't matter if you can play footsies, and that is why I think the combo of fastest walk speed/second longest reach is particularly busted. Since he doesn't have high combo potential it isn't really an execution barrier... just play footsies.
I don't think he is any easier to stun than shotos, and also he has the same damage factor as most characters in yhe game, e.g., shotos, Guile, DJ, Dhalsim, Dictator, etc. I've never seen evidence showing combos that only stun Claw: what I did see are combos that fail on him due to having a skinny hurtbox.
Good? Sure. Top tier? No. Without walldive, his gameplay becomes more stilted, he starts lacking in damage output (his buttons do below average damage), and he'll just have a bunch of straightforwardly losing matchups - eg. Honda is only okay because of walldive. He'd probably start having issues with Chun and DJ, and we don't know how Dhalsim would end up since atm the matchup is just walldive Sim to death because he's beyond free to it. The basic shell is solid, but low damage output and a bit nickle and dimey. It's good enough, but not in the same tier of power as Chun, Sim, O.Sagat or Boxer. Not even close. Ryu and DJ might be arguable. If you want proof, go watch the matches of a player called ARG. He's one of the best Claw players in Japan and often decides to play without walldive, and loses so much value and so many rounds to just playing more stilted and lacking in damage. _"He has WAAAY too many things that are safe on block"_ Being safe on block is completely unremarkable in ST. His backflips aren't safe, they last 30 and 50 frames respectively, both have 9 vulnerable frames at the end. Good for dodging a thing you know is coming, but perfectly punishable. Scarlet Terror, the thing you call a damaging backflip, is -12 or worse. _"Certain matchups he doesn't want to go up in the air, yet he completely dominates without it."_ Yeah, and that misses the point: Claw is good because the matchups where he can't walldive happen to be matchups that he can play without the dive and do well. But that doesn't describe all matchups. There's a bunch where he walldives because the honest gameplan just loses horribly or is disadvantaged, but walldiving comes out even or winning. To illustrate, let's reverse the argument: You could remove everything from him except walldive since that alone lets him play a versatile neutral game. He could play more versatile, but doesn't even need it because one move is that good. Would walldive-only Claw be top tier? By that argument, yes. Except he'd have a 0-10 Blanka matchup that anyone ever could just fraud him out with. Walldive is busted, yes. The rest of Claw's kit is good, yes. But it's them rounding each other out that makes him top tier and ensures he has play in any matchup in the game.
@@Komatik_ he beats Honda by jumping back hp. Now if they remove barcelona AND fix the terror store bug, I may agree he would be just high tier (Ryu, Guile, Fei, etc.).
I think a couple other good topics might be: Great moves that became terrible after nerfs and vice versa. Also, subsequently, characters that became high/low tier because of certain moves getting buffed/nerfed.
Johnny from Guilty Gear: Strive comes to mind instantly. Bro really did benefit from step dash having its recovery reduced and grounded Mist Finer inflicting a hard knockdown.
Vega wall dive is so fun too. I'm not normally a villain in FGs but I do smile whenever people complain about him constantly jumping. I really need him to return in SF6.
I don't mind him being able to launch into the air; I don't mind him being able to put people in a 50/50 guess... after all he is a villain and it FEELS cheap which is appropriate. The issue I have is if the opponent guesses right, not only can he not be punished for it, but he STILL gets to do it again. It just needs a way to be punished and I'm down with the cheapness.
Whenever a Baiken tethers me, I get a little confused I am Potemkin I want to be in front of you, so like . Thanks for letting me skip the getting in phase?
I don't think it counts because she had other equally f-ed up shit. Kuma on other side compared to Panda was 3 tiers above her only because of the special mid Bear electrics. Devil in Tag 1 had mid, mid safe launcher and safe hellsweep and would've been borderline useless without them.
@@ametozukumazu6073 Yeah, Azucena's running 3,2 was just part of what made her so good initially. Kuma getting an "Electric" differentiates him from Panda so dramatically she's damn near pointless. The Bears actually that bad in Tekken 8, in general, but Kuma just invalidates Panda now.
EWGF on Kazuya in SSBU, without it working exactly how it works now (IE: not nerfed into dust) he would not be quite the same threat. quick lagless invulnerable mobility KO move
66B with Nightmare was rated the best move, by far, in all of Soul Cal 2. Tracks 360 degrees, can only be sidestepped in one direction, forces crouch, etc. It was a god tier move.
@4:42 you missed the chance to get 4 beams because you need to go up and down with the beam on the 3rd one to make storm drop a bit so you can hit the next viper beam higher.
You and JMCrofts always manage to bounce off of each other in such a natural way. Just two bros talking about stuff in fighting games that they find interesting.
Can I also petition Tatsunoko Vs Capcom's Soki for this list, for his obnoxious standing sword poke? Comes out super fast and covers half the screen, combos into itself, sets up for supers or assist plays really easily. A great move which elevates the character significantly.
I just knew Cable would have to be here. I vividly remember people who's whole team would be built around building meter for Air Hyper Vipers, or setting up Air Hyper Vipers.
I remember watching a tournament match of MvC2 where one player was locked down by Sentinel and Captain Commando. While blocking Hyper Sentinel Force the point character used cross counter to bring in Cable, who performed Scimitar and then cancelled it into AHVBx3. In a few seconds Cable took out Sentinel and Captain Commando and turned the match around, just because the point character blocked an attack on the other side of the screen. I rewound the video like five times
Pre-patch Ultimate Pichu’ f-tilt was insane. Crazy fast, crazy safe, high trip chance at low percent, and kills at, uh, low percent, like 25-30% at ledge, and it hits below ledge.
Turbo's Claw feels like he was made by a deranged madman. Not only can his wall dive do literally anything, but his super can be *spammed*. Yes, if he doesn't grab you, he keeps his meter, because of course he does. If anyone's wondering why he isn't as good in SF4 and SFV, we owe it to this nonsense.
I'd argue even without the wall dive he would still be busted AF. They gave the character with the fastest walk speed the 2nd longest reach lol. Way too many things are safe on block, and he has the backflips that can both avoid all damage and deal damage at the same time. Seriously wtf? XD
@@naejimba Backflips don't deal damage but I concur. This guy can poke well, move fast, jump fast, dodge weird throw situations because of his Scarlet Terror, AND HE CAN NEUTRAL SKIP TOO?????! I like Claw. His wall dives are fun. He's fun. But why would they ever design someone like him? It's not like they have different health levels like in later games. I can barely even name drawbacks for him. He's... tall? He... can't throw fireballs? Not that it matters, he's worth 10 fireballs. To think that Old Sagat (who *hasn't* paid for his top tier crimes) and Akuma are better than even him is truly a testament to how horrible balance was back then.
King in Tekken 1, his entire gameplay revolved around abusing one simple move. His df1, the move was +90 Something on block (I'm NOT exaggerating) which meant that you had to block it with your face or else...
Yeah, df+1 was busted. It was +93 on block, so you had to get hit, and it was +6 on hit, so even 8f jab characters (Law, Nina, Michelle, and their copycats) traded with a df+1 if both mashed. With no sidestep, the "out" was to backdash and make sure to release the back button before it tags you because if you didn't King was doing a 50% combo and put you back in the meat grinder.
Is that wall jump by Vega such a good move? I remember to just punch him out of the air with a shoryuken. I need to play that game again and practice :)
Notable mention would be Steve from Tekken 5.0. While he was busted overall the biggest factor is his sidestep 3,1,1. If it landed it was a literal infinite.
Shoutouts to Noob-Smoke from MK Deception who’s only top tier because Smoke can infinitely loop his grab while the rest of his kit is bottom tier material
Im surprised you didnt mention probably the most broken move in all of fighting games ... Foxes Shine from Melee. Comes out Frame 1, immediately cancellable (even into itself), Combos into itself, Reflects projectiles, and is fully Invincible from frame 1. Imagine becoming a completly invincible ball that reflects projectiles, and if ur opponent gets touched by it you combo into another one. WILD
"The air version of everything is better" I think stems from Castlevania and doing air whip to ground whip "combos" is just fun to do. So generally I think this is something developers, especially Japanese developers, let rock in their games because it's just fun to do. Not to get too off track, but I think this was a factor of the popularity of Japanese games as generally they let fun stuff rock more where as many US and EU devs seem to see unintended gimicks and put the "no fun allowed" sign down. It's not the rule in every case, and things have sort of evened out in the current era, but old Japanese games just let you have more fun.
@@camgoodkicksLK being an anime specialist, while JM being knowledgeable on the footsie fighters is why they make such a good duo. Together they cover nearly the whole spectrum.
@@TenjinZekken JM is knowledgeable on pretty much every fighter, including anime, while LK seems to only care about the latter category. They’re not covering the entire spectrum because JM already does that. It’s more like the entire spectrum + even more anime. But that’s just imo
Z Broly reminds me of Deadpool from MvC3 where his projectile had so many hits if blocked or on hit he could back teleport into a combo, and it was so long it made it almost impossible to jump over. I'm sure there was probably some way around it that Pro players could utilize but for you average gamer that single move is why I only played the game for 30 mins online and never went back.
Minecart is a bonkers move. Like Block is really good but it is something you have to get used to with labbing. Everything about Minecart is absolutely nuts
Honestly, I don't feel you can be a genuine top tier by A SINGULAR MOVE. That being said, you can be if the rest of your kit is functional or it has strong synergy with a second move who covers the counterplay to the first move.
USF4 Dan can cancel super taunt into Ultra, which means not only can you use that to cancel into Ultra real easy, you can just Super Taunt, buffer the Ultra Input, and on reaction, drain half of their HP.
yun's SA3 in 3rd strike is what carries him. without genei jin, i would argue he's a mid tier but genei jin is what gives him sucha oppressive neutral, life melting punish, and its short meter requirements means he almost always has it.
I would like to add Polnareff's Silver from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Heritage from the future. The character has good pokes and moves, but this move is just pure pressure that makes the character one of the best top tiers in the game.
Julia's f f 1 in Tekken 7. That moves comes out so fast, is safe on block, has a launcher followup to frame trap and is really hard to punish on a game with fairly weak sidestepping. Julia is strong, yes, but ff1 is just Free Pressure: The Move. Also a very versatile combo extender for juggles because why the hell not.
I feel like another top tier character for one move in DBFZ has to be cell. Other than his other amazing tools, his perfect attack is a frame 4 invincible move that is a anti-air, combo starter, save if you block it, and gives you a mixup if you block it with assists that only cost half a bar.
You absolutely see this kind of thing in modern fighting games...... for like a week or two after initial release. Tekken 8 Azu, for example, with her dive attack move that did stupid chip in heat, + enough on block she could do it again, and pushed her so far forward that even if they sidestep nobody could punish her.
Kakyoin nets in heritage for the future are a really good example, a lot of low tiers are completely invalidated by not having a good way to break them
My prediction before watching the video is Raoh from hnk. Dudes a slow ass brawler character who kinda dies to everything, but because of his super broken "stab you in the foot" special he can turn literally any hit into a tod. idk enough to know if raoh would still be good without that move (theres a lot of ways to get tods in that game lmao) but it certainly is an extremely character defining move.
air hyper viper beam, you can get 5 on sent and juggs but thats it. Enough time might have passed in this game for someone to figure out how to jiggle their way into doing five on other characters but it was pretty well established when I was playing a long time ago that any more than three is only possible on those two characters
I think Megaman in MvC2 deserves an honourable mention. His Leaf Shield does an obscene amount of chip damage, and used as an assist, comes out lightning quick. Couple that with a second MM spamming HP to lock them into block and you have the cheesiest way to win in the game.
Some new tech was discovered in ST recently with Claw's super. I'm not sure exactly how it works but i believe you can store his super and walk backwards. I've heard that it's really useful.
That's not the super, and the tech is not new. ST lets you store the charge/input of certain moves if you keep holding a direction after completing the motion. Chun and Honda's supers let you charge, do the motion and keep holding any forward direction. As long as you keep holding forward, you can just complete the super motion by pressing a button. Honda's super is thankfully garbage, but Chun's is great and it's really strong with the store glitch. Honda can also store his command throw (it's a half circle back motion). Do the half circle back, and as long as you keep holding any back direction you can just do the command throw by pressing a button. Worse, actually: Since ST has negative edge, ie. the game tries to execute moves on button release as well as on downpress, you can press a punch, do the super store and hold dowback. You can release the button any time to attempt the command throw, and the throw has no whiff animation. It's a block/command grab OS. Claw has a store glitch on Scarlet Terror, his flash kick type move. Terror has a strict downback charge, but once the charge is complete, you can retain as long as you hold any back direction (so blocking high, jumping back, walking back are allowed). As long as you have the charge, forward+kick executes the move. There is tech with the input of Claw's super, but it's more to do with the actual motion. Normal walldives need a down charge, so you can't move and then do a walldive. The super walldive's input is down charge, any forward, any back, any up+kick. "any forward" and "any back" mean you can do stuff like charge, jump back, walldive or charge, jump forward, walldive since the jump was just part of completing the walldive's motion. It's kind of funny that other characters get new neutral options from unlocking the super as a move, but for Claw the new neutral options come from just getting a new input for a move he already has (the super walldive is identical to the normal one, the throw just does more damage)
I'm going to pitch in Launch MK11 Sheeva and her stomp. It was a menace even in pro play, I think it was TitaniumTigerzzz that put the move on the map and eventually got it nerfed. Unblockable, tracking, and the sheeva could even steer it so that dashing out from under it wasn't guaranteed.
I know you know this, but you didn't mention in this vid that the claw super ONLY flashes and uses the meter if you land the grab, otherwise it's no commitment (except the more elaborate input)
I'd throw SC2 Nightmare's 3B in there. He was low-mid tier until they discovered 2G and you could make his 3B safe. That man skyrocketed up the tier list.
