We’re debating tire samples and lab tests in dirt late model racing, as well as the Bobby Pierce, Devin Moran, and Kyle Bronson getting World of Outlaws and Dirtcar suspensions and penalties.
I listened to the podcast Kenny Wallace had with Brian Carter (World Racing Group's CEO) and it seems pretty open and shut. All the whataboutisms and did you tries are pretty much covered. Bobby Pierce's tires came back with evidence of chemical alteration on 3/3 samples. He can put out all the heartfelt denials he wants, but that won't change what the mass spectrometer says about his tire compound samples. Pierce, Bronson, and Moran were the only tires that came back out of about 70 Super Late Model and Big Block Modifieds that had tire samples sent for testing. Dirtcar/WRG has purposely done double blind testing at the contract lab multiple times, tested all the shady tire prep methods random guys peddle at the pits in Volusia, Eldora, and all the other places. Everytime they have sent them in the lab has correctly identified the tire that was illegally prepped and the one that was stock. There is no excuse. These guys all gambled at speedweeks and lost. Brian Carter straight up told the entire drivers meeting to not mess with their tires and these guys or their crews didn't listen. Now they have to pay the piper.
@@barrycooper9036 Yeah some were from qualification. In my opinion that's even worse. If you have national tour guys flexing their budgets and their crew's professional expertise to get an unfair advantage it's bad. Using that unfair advantage to get a better qual time and by extension heat race and feature starting position is in a lot of ways worse than cheating in a 50 or 100 lap feature. By that point a cheater has made the show and are in a good place to pick up points and or a podium. Meanwhile guys who could have made the show were a few tenths slower, missed getti g a transfer in the heats, and had to go to a B Main just to get at the rear of the pack potentially had to work 4x as hard as the guy who is intentionally breaking the rules. Just to make the show. It's ridiculous.
first time visiting Florida to watch some dirt racing and going into the pits, it was obvious tire doping was happening. They know who they are. You got caught. Chance they took.
A straightup series should require any tire sample found positive to have a second tire sample sent to a different lab for testing, if found positive the team is quilty, if negative they are not guilty because the initial positive finding didn't hold up under secondary testing.
THAT IS A VERY GOOD IDEA I LIKE THAT LETS THINK ABOUT THAT FOR HTF SERIES GUYS AND EVERY OTHER SERIES DO THE SAME ÑO MATER WHAT THE COST WITH THE MONEY GOING UP SERIES CANT NOT DO THIS
They automatically do that if you watch Kenny Wallace interview they test the first sample if its good then ok. If found illegal they send the second sample to confirm the tire is illegal as well as they have a third piece to send for testing.
@@CDeese39 actually they ask for a second test from the same sample by the same lab, regional series don't request secondary testing at all. What I'm saying is have the second tire sample sent to a entirely different lab for testing, then make the decision based off of that test result.
TEST THE DIRT - Imagine how many times that dirt has been rubbered up with tire treatments, spills, & buffer residue all over the pit grounds. Imo, the sectioning body should provide the tires.
Kenny Wallace interviewed Brian Carter and it was fully explained how the system is NOT FLAWED. It was actually very informative, debunked all the nonsense you are saying and was actually very thorough on why it is NOT FLAWED.
Here's my take. Nobody drives harder than Bobby and RTJ yet they almost always were the fastest cars the last 10 laps of every race. Nee tires that people say are junk yet the 2 guys that abused them the most have the best rubber left at the end of the races?? Call me a skeptic! I think Bobby got caught and If RTJ came back dirty at any time I would not be surprised at all.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that the tire testing done by a lab is not faulty. I’ve seen people continue to say that the lab tests are faulty and can be tainted and tampered with. These tire samples that are being sent to a lab are just like a urinalysis given for a drug test. It’s the same thing with the tire, they know the chemicals that are used to make the tires and what chemicals aren’t supposed to be on the tires especially if it’s a chemical that softens the compound of the rubber. I.e, we ended up winning one of the biggest paying races of the year. After the race, they took tire samples from the top 5, they took the samples and placed them in the bags. The official called each driver/car owner over to tape everything up and initial the tape so we could determine if it has been tampered with and they cover it with their label. Once everything is sealed, they called everyone together to inform them that 2 people were allowed to be at the lab to unseal their packaging and make sure there was no tampering. Once everything is deemed to be clear, the samples are given to a laboratory scientist to determine the chemicals of the tire. Before I went to the lab, I went to one of our local race tracks that allowed tire soaking to see if they would soak one tire for me so I could have them check it since these guys make their own softener and know exactly what chemicals are in there. Long story short, they soaked that tire for me, when I arrived at the lab, I asked if they would test this tire and tell me what chemicals were on it. They informed me that they would but the laboratory scientist may charge me for checking it and I agreed to pay for it. Once we arrived to the lab, we took the sanctioning labels off of the tape to make sure nothing was tampered with and it wasn’t. The laboratory scientist came in to explain the details of his process, we agreed that everything was legitimate because he would not know whose tire samples he was checking. I asked him if he would take a sample from this tire to tell me if there’s any softener on it, he agreed and explained how he would do it. I asked when he would have the results, he asked me if it was ok if he just gave us the results when we got our results from the actual race sample. I said sure, we got the results back, the top 5 tire samples were all good, there was no softener on any of them. However, the tire that I had him test to see if they could actually determine what chemicals were on the tire. His results deemed the tire as illegal, he listed every chemical that was on that tire and it was everything that the local guys used to soak their tires. Lastly, he even put a note at the bottom to inform me that whoever is using this softener, they should be very cautious because it is horrible for your health, it’s illegal in several states and supposed to be regulated by the government and only sold to businesses.
The tire soaking issue has been in the asphalt racing game for a long time. Some of the ways they make it a little more foolproof are. When you get to the track on a crown jewel type of race. You buy your tires for the weekend when you get there. The tires you plan on running for the feature are mounted and impounded. There is still some grey area with this, but it will eliminate a lot of the issue. That obviously won't work for every show.
The question is what does the sampling test check for and can the accurately determine what if any chemicals are involved and trace them to a product or potentially a natural occurrence that tires could encounter at any track or a shop environment? The other question would be are they able to determine if the "doping" is a specific process such as layering of chemical compounds in a specific way that highlights it's not a naturally occurring process that could accidentally occur in any other way. We do oil sampling for our jet motors and false positives do occur claiming substances that shouldnt be there are there. Secondary analysis of the oil samples typically come back negative proving something during the process was faulty introducing that substance. Especially when often there are hundreds of samples taken and processed daily. Fault could be on the person pulling the sample, the technician handling the sample, the machine being contaminated or the machine itself.
Look… I like RTJ, RTJ didn’t just become “the best” overnight though. Not saying he tampered with tires necessarily, but I feel completely confident they have something “figured out”!
It's hard to fool the mass spectrometer. A tire, aka the benchmark, contains a limited number of compounds. Knowing track prep, I would not accept contamination from that aspect. At some point in time, you have to accept the result. If a tire in question came in contact with everything one would expect it to usually come in contact with at a race, then all of those little spikes on the mass spectrometer readout will show those chemical compounds. However, if one of those spikes belongs to a compound that is completely outside of every compound, that is typically found in the process of loading a car in a trailer, unloading the car at the track, doing standard tire prep, hot laps, and crossing the scales then you have to ask the question. Where and when did that tire come in contact with an agent that would disagree with the standard benchmark? 1. The tires were knowingly treated. 2. The tires came in contact with an illegal compound unknowingly. 3. If two is an option, was there an act of sabotage? Someone corrupting the tires without the knowledge of the owner. If the first option is the case, was it a crew member who did this without consulting the rest of the team? 4. How were the tires sourced new? Was it possible a tire was treated but unused and returned to the supply chain? Chemically altering a tire takes a little work, and the chances of failing this test because you ran on the same track with another car that had a chemically altered tire is a stretch. Let's be clear, it would be hard for a lab to screw this up especially considering the chemicals that go into tire prep. Methyl Naphthalene, mineral spirits, lacquer thinner, toluene, Xylene, Creosote, DEET (diethyltoluamide), automatic transmission fluid, WD-40, Naphthenic Solvents. Other than ATF and WD40, the rest of those chemicals should not be near your tire choice for tonight's main. Knowing how the test works, I support the science. I would even give the drivers the benefit of the doubt, not that the tires did not meet the benchmark, but how did it happen to be that the tires did not meet the benchmark. Unless you're concerned, it would also be very beneficial not to misplace the tire or tires that got you in trouble to begin with. Nothing is keeping a driver from taking that tire directly to the lap themselves and having the test done privately, especially if they were concerned about the validity of the test and or the possibility that the results are actually true and the honest driver wants to find out what in the hell went wrong. Not like I really know anything; I just go in circles all day in a motor grader.
From what I understand and could be wrong, you will have to check it out yourself, is that they are suspended from all dirt car sanctioned events and htf is a dirt car sanctioned series.
I'm telling you, the only solution is to play the NASCAR game, and have Hoosier literally bring the tires to the track, marked for that race and date, and teams must purchase at the track..and then an official wandering and making sure there's no kiddie pools being used...
Na we have answers, he went on Kenny Wallace's podcast and explained it. It changes the composition of the tire itself and never reverts back. If anyone has a pro tire specialist they're cheating, hes been doing it
I would like to see them come out with some sort of on-site test. That can be done quickly. In front of the drivers, promoters, tech officials, and whomever else. With all the technology nowadays, this would solve all the issues. They take the sample right in front of you. You follow them to a machine or whatever. They enter the sample, and it does it's thing. It tells you the results quickly.
Mass Spec machines are not cheap and not fond of bouncing around in a truck. No matter what you do the there will always be an excuse, always be a reason. Guys could stand there and watch them dope the tires and still claim they did not cheat
Even if they had the machine at a million + dollars, then you will get everyone crying that they are manipulating the results and being bias. It has to be this way.
The series or track should supply tires and keep tires under watchful eyes until time to race. We raced asphalt late models 25 years ago and track supplied tires and we could only measure and mark tires before race. We got our tires right before qualifying and had to use track supplied air. Leveled the playing field tremendously.
thing is even then what's to say they wouldn't alter the tire compound? you could utilize the trailer to hide doping them. with the smell you could do it on the top level simce the primary us unloaded. alot of the teams use a tarp to cover the storage area up. it might slow the doping deal but who knows. if all the series get on the same rule mandate and enforce it as a whole then yes it would change
I am only a fan, but a question occurs to me. Can anyone offer a perspective? Is there any way someone could put something in a mud muddle they knew only those drivers would have to drive through, but wouldn't necessarily get on others' tires? Also, maybe throw something under the tire as they are rolling through the pits. Coke can, small plastic bottle, balloon, etc. Just thinking...
Watch the interview with on Kenny Wallace podcast WOO explains the process and it wasn’t just feature winners caught. The products in question are sold at the tracks by vendors and it probably isn’t a stretch to think some drivers aren’t cheating using it. Racers have been cheating since racing started and always will. Maybe he didn’t know it was put on the tires For plausible deniability reasons.
How is getting caught cheating in any aspect of racing risking a career or reputation when almost all of them at some point have been caught? If anything, it is expected by every team to get caught along the way, it is nothing more than a blip in time that nobody will care about in a few weeks, it will be back to business as usual.
test it out. treat some tires and run them in a few of your shows with different teams. or when you send samples to a lab send them 1 that you know isnt tainted and see if the lab screws up.
Mark Richards has Logan Seavey scheduled to drive a second house car later in the season. I found it interesting Mark was one of the first people in victory lane after Seavy won to congratulate him.
Here is a different perspective. The current method of collecting samples has a fundamental flaw. The only samples that we know are viable for comparison testing would be samples taken before the main event starts. Any samples taken at the end of a race are from rubber that has been exposed to countless unknown contaminants. There are also no control samples. For example, take vigin, pre-race samples from 4 competitors as well as post race samples from the same tire. Then compare factory sample to the pre and post race samples. Over time results would show if in-race exposure can alter tires. Test and eliminate all variables before we eliminate drivers
1 of those failures was taken after qualifying, not a heat nor feature race. There is no contaminated stuff getting on a tire from qualifying in only 2 laps. There is none from any race from any dirt cause that was thought of and there are hundreds of tests that are done just try and trick labs. They do way more extensive testing then what people think. They aren't stupid , they try to outsmart the lab to try and get things by them. People are cheating and your nieve to think no one is doping tires. Fyi go watch kenny Wallace interview with Brian Clark from earlier.
Thats the hoobla that Bobby Pierce was spitting, and you're just eating it up. Anything on the track will not soak into the rubber. They simply aren't on the track long enough, and only the surface of the tire is contacting the dirt. For the rubber to absorb, it needs to be sitting submerged in the substance for a long period of time. That's why tire soakers use large drums or small pools. Nothing the tire touches during a feature will soak into the rubber, plain and simple.
As someone who has mounted thousands of dirt tires, there is no chemical ever used to mount them. Literally dry. The tires are super soft and get changed so often they bead up without issues ever.
What they should do is every series should get on the same tires and if you want to dope the the tires do it that way everyone has the same opportunity. But where there money there a way always has been always will be.
You're talking about petrochemicals; we don't add anything like that to a track, not even by accident. These are very specific chemicals designed for the purpose of changing the tire compound.
Positive for what? Even he CEO won't say what constitutes a "bad" sample??? Poor leadership. Transparency??? Soaked?? Soaked in what?"?? Chemicals?? Water?? Air?? Beer?? Fire the leadership, and get some leadership!!
Dirtcar racing is going the way of nascrap it'll eventually be to where alll teams in all series will havta buy the tires from Hoosier at the track on race day .cant bring any tire from your shop an they'll all run same tire hard or soft .they'll all be the same ...i think thats where they are heading
@@54raceman with good reason, they were creating heat cycles in the tires using said pools, which is also illegal. Scuffing, grooving sipping tires is all you are allowed to do according to the rule book.
WOO director warned pre race WOO tested multiple fluid samples to compare results 67 tires tested 3 illegal tires 3 samples each tire tested 3 separate test when found illegal. Seems pretty legit and simple. Don't mess with tires or it will have consequences.
I work for a major tire company and test 1000s of tires a year and I will say with 100% experience there is variables in every tire. We make roughly 26000 tires a day and of those several will test different but still sold to the customer. An yes many of them are chemically different because no process is 100% accurate everytime
@@AudioWonderland no tire manufacturers in the world test 100% of the tires they send out the door. An yes there is tires that will make it out the door with chemicals none to alter their performance wether long term or short term. Something as simple as hand lotion on someone’s hands then that tire being heated can alter the chemical make up of that tire.
Whats the odds of any of them tires to pick up a foreign substance from just the race surface and pit road whos to say the track dosent add something to there water that they lay down or a hydraulic leak on a tractor or water truck so many gray areas that could add a contaminated sample for sure.
Here’s my opinion, I think the tire checking system has its flaws, coming from someone outside the dirt oval racing industry completely I can see how post race sampling could provide inconsistent results, mostly because you have ran on a track with all sorts of contaminants, secondly, one of my hobbies is rc racing where tire doping is legal, we use liquid wrench to dope tires, I also work on cars and I know how often petroleum based lubricants are used for various things, both those being said those are two plausible ways for some sort of contamination to get on a tire without someone making any willful attempt to dope a tire, my idea for a solution would be pre main tire sampling and some sort of threshold system for the chemicals that would show up in a lab test
If this was true, then the whole field would have failed, not just 3 cars out of 67. They tested over 200 tires that weekend, sprint cars, big blocks modified and late models and those 3 cars are the only ones that failed. 2 cars feature tires and 1 car qualifying tires. So that puts to rest that theory.
Problem ... if the car in front of you gets caught doing tires it will give YOU a false positive also because the tire tool WILL have the solvent on the blade from the previous car
Watch the video with Kenny Wallace and Brian Carter, the samples are taken with the teams own tire groover, Woo only direcy where the sample is taken , 3 seperate spots, placed in a sealed container that is numbered ,no names on sample so lab has no idea who they are testing.
Explain why you think the "system" is flawed? And what are you calling the system, the lab, the testing procedure, obtaining the sample procedure, the sanctioning body?
Teams need to retain the samples u til they’re cleared. Second there needs to be reproducibility test between labs to determine how big the tolerance should be. Third, Kenny Wallace approach that he recommended where trucks bring tires and wheels to the race that are managed by Hoosier.
@@BluegrassMike they tested the same sample 3 times but using different parts of said sample. They only take 2 plugs or samples. Been giving tire samples for 20 years.
@@AudioWonderlandI was asking a question. Please explain how it is false? So using soap or simple green etc. to clean the tires couldn't change the results of the testing. I am not a lab person and is why I asked the question. From what I have read they don't test for specific things in the test results they check to see if the results are different from there sample tire from Hoosier. I know a Tom of people that race Go-Karts that use simple green and wd40 for example to soften there tires. So if you "cleaned" your tires with it that wouldn't be detected is what you are saying? Same with the wd40 if you where spraying it and it got on your tires it wouldn't affect the sample? I have had puddles of wd40 that my car has sat in while I was in a rush to get fixed and didn't get cleaned up right away.
False 1) because it doesn't matter. The team is responsible for what they put on the car. 2) Just because they put that crap on their tires where its legal doesn't mean it actually does anything. @@jasonnelson2744
Or just allow doping. Allowing it will not have any bearing on the number of fans attending in person or online. Everything will be just fine. One less rule. One less area for controversy.
So what ever happened to the HTF tire guy Cameron ? He used to take HTF tires home and joke about putting them in a sauna for a few days. Now it might just be a coincident, but HTF even ran better when Cameron was the tire man. Was something fishy going on that HTF didn't like ? Did Cameron have some tricks ?
Yall did not discuss the process. There are 3 separate samples taken from 3 diffrent locations on the tire. All 3 samples showed the same chemicals. It doesn't matter how many samples were taken previously. If only 1 sample failed and the other 2 were okay. I could question the process. But when all 3 came up bad. NO something stinks. Now the chain of custody part of the process was not discussed.
Could be a honest mistake from the tire manufacturer or the testing facility or WoO is tired of him winning all the races. He is dominating it’s not good for business. Fans do not wanna see the same person win all the time unless ur Dale Earnhardt etc lol
One of the cars who got caught, wasn't his feature tire, it was his qualifying tire they tested. Starting spots sometimes is more important then the feature race its self.
save a ton of money testing the tires and let them soak away, why not, especially when theres basically no rules anyways. you got guys with 70,000.00 engines putting out 900hp and then the guys with garage motors puting out 500hp. its cheaper for a low budget team to soak tires the whole season. think about it.
What do you mean too much to lose they are getting a 30 day suspension and his fine is like 8,500$. That's a slap on the wrist. The CEO of the world of outlaws is sick on Kenny Wallace podcast you can tell he hates this and he hated to make this info public. They tested 3 parts of the tire on 75 tires and 3 came up dirty. The process in my opinion the way it was explained is pretty damn fool proof. They didn't just test feature tires . One of the tires that came up dirty was a qualifying tire. How big is 3 or 4 position in qualifying ? on most nights qualifying makes your entire night. Each series needs to have a trailer in the middle of the track you go down with travel tires on the car and have a series official bring you your tires and watch you put them on the car. Level playing field for everyone at least with tires. I know it sounds crazy as hell but you will know 100% the tires have not been doped.
