Chinarello V Pinarello - Fake or Real, Which is better? 

The Chinarello office wants to thank you for their 1st QA/QC inspection. This was awesome to finally see this!

You say in your closing thoughts that Chinese unknowns need to looked at on a case by case basis, but between yourself and Hambini it seems this rings true with fully known brands equally. Those faults on the genuine article are unacceptable for the prices Pinarello demand. When the pros get them for free they can be as they are, but when someone is forking out £5K for the frameset alone that's atrocious. Seems like as a consumer it's a case of working out what's worse diarrhoea or constipation, when both leave you with a sore arse.

The most anticipated bike release video of 2020 wasn't some puff piece about X big brand's new X model being X percent more stiff/lighter/compliant, it was a rotary tool Chinarello showdown...

The problem with fakes, as you say, is accountability. They don't care if the frame fails, because it's not their name written on it. Other small Chinese brands or whatever, it's their name on their downtube if it cracks - they have something to lose. So, I agree; I can't recommend buying a fake frame.

Thank you. Very educational and to the point. I was thinking that we might never see this comparison as we might realise that fake is not that much different and you might have genuine companies chasing you or forbidding you to show it as it would affect their sales and promote fakes. Good I was corrected and you pointed to us what danger/risks are there. On another note you also showed us the quality of the real one that doesn’t match the price. That being said I bought real pinarello yesterday so I better make sure to register my frame just in case... Once again I appreciate the effort and honesty and I will look forward for more of your technical lessons and comparisons. Hope the genuine companies take notes. Thanks and Regards.

The Pinarello does not come off too well here. Great video. Thank you!

Great video Raoul. 👍🏼

The person that had the fake was very lucky to get a little bit of warning of the failure. That bike could have easily just exploded at 80kph on the descent. As you said you really are risking your life, whether the bike is real or fake you’re entrusting your well-being to it. This video makes me even more excited to get my classic Raleigh made from Reynolds 531c built up!

Daylight robbery considering the cost of the genuine article. So basically it’s a lottery based on quality

Chinarello: Thanks! We will improve headtube structure and amend cable hole position XD

If you are willing to pay a little more I guess the Chinese bike manufacturers can make it even better than the original. With the Chinese frame, you get what you paid for but with the original you still get crap even if you paid premium.

Before he said which one was real , I actually thought the real one was the fake. Wow, what an eye opener. For the price that you pay for the real one, you would think it would be flawless.

I had one of these Chinarellos...loved the frame.... and had 5 other friends race a whole season - all went well. My SL2 was horrible. I have had 4 Chinarellos - my F8 was the favorite... F12 on the way.... I hope the owner sends this video to the seller...

Phrase of the century: "Personally, I don't ride a bike I have not scanned" 🥶🥶🥶🥶🥶🥶 @ 37:14

Super interesting. Was pulling for the Chinarello but then saw the headset cup in the head tube and said "nah. . .that's not gonna work."

Thanks for posting this. It's terrific that knowledgeable and skilled individuals like yourself help us to understand the hands in which we place our lives.

At last! 👍 Thanks! BTW, I'm sure the Chinarello manufactures will be honing their craft to be even more deceptive

Thank you as always for uploading these educational videos in your free time. Like you said, these copies lack support in critical areas and I suspected exactly that. I had a fake Wilier before and the rear triangle was noticeably softer. The rear tire rubbed the chainstays when I was pedaling out of the saddle.

Raoul can.you do a fork comparison as that's very much as important and for me personally more so. Good vid review.

can you do it in another china frame like seraph, twitter, vcye, winspace, alves and any other smaller china brand, i hope they are better than the fake one.

The scary part is - they didn't understand the thickness of that section was for strength on the original, and just filled it with foam to save a few cents ...

Glad I got to see this video before Pinarello has it pulled, lmao. Excellent work!

It’s a sample size of 1. If you cut open 10 of each, you might find the fake to have less critical flaws. Both are made by hand with high potential for mistakes.

Magic video and I love the attention to detail with each section. Shows exactly what how well they are made. Would interesting to see a 2020 Pinarello cut up to see if things have improved.

OMFG they both look HORRIBLE around the BB. Unbelieveable!!

Playback 1.5x thank me later. Who else is watching this about to buy a Chinarello frame

Is it just me or the China looks like a better mold??? Especially the seat post!! Definitely not paying $6500 for poor Pina craftsmanship! Also look how much straight and perfectly, constant structutal thickness there is on the china!

I think even the real one looks quite unimpressive. So much junk left in there. And in some areas indeed the fake looks moulded cleaner. The copy is of course dangerous and i wouldnt recommend one.

Fascinating content as always. I was surprised how the Pinarello manufacture couldn't put enough adhesive on the seat juntion as you showed, it's crazy.

This is a Think 65.1.... many many years old build and hardly a current comparison. I own a 2015 F8 and 2016 F8 clone. And Ive bought a few Used clones over time and can see the improvement in build quality. In my experience comparing my 2 bikes: Chinarello frameset weighs a tad more, say 120gms Aside from the lack of the Bar code serial number under the BB visually they are indistiguishable and share the same parts. You can use all the genuine plugs, seatpost, bearings in either. Internally both have been BAGGED in construction, in fact the Chinarello is a bit tidier inside around BB and HT. Forks feels so confidence inspiring on fast downs and through corners. F8 A tad lighter in the frameset A bit faster in a sprint and steepest hill climbs at max power. So one can assume a bit stiffer in the BB and HT areas. Real uses 1100 vs 800 Toray. I sold the CHINARELLO to my road racing family neighbour (full disclosure so he knew) He needed a $1K bike for his son and was happy to take it (SRAM Red 10sp, DA C35 wheelset). The son, experienced racer in his youth, commented this is the first bike in years he has felt confident riding in fast descents, better than the TREKS, Scotts, Cerveolos etc they had been using. The biggest concern with Chinarellos will be getting a good one. There must be a few making them and I have seen some that are rough on the inside and in my opinion an inferior build. So I check who the supplier is for this reason. There is one I know makes a good product. ALSO if you watch a story on Geraint Thomas / Team SKY that covers this period when SKY were riding the 65.1 the comment was the bike was SLOW so they didnt expect much from it. Then the F8 was launched and SKY took off. IMO this video, while interesting, is very out of date given we are in 2020. If we dissected say a 2018 version of each then I would pay more attention. cheers

been waiting for this one! cheers

Looking forward to checking this out. Thx.

Interesting, as an owner of a Chinarello dogma f12! I feel more validated for not buying it now

copying or designing based off of another's design is one thing(I don't completely disagree with it). Misleading someone with a counterfeit is not at all cool and demonstrates a deep disrespect for the activity it is counterfeiting. Take the stratocaster guitar for example. There are successful companies who make(superb) almost 1:1 strat copies. And it's cool to do so. They sometimes add some minor innovations or more options than what you may be able to get from Fender. But all in all I'm not terrible against copying as long as it is done as good or better than the original. Actually you can literally buy a hand made strat copy that is arguably better than an og strat!

Not saying the costs shouldn't be lower on the genuine one but people are not accounting for development cost, etc for the genuine one.

Great video. Thanks very much for posting. I've learned quite a bit from you, and this is only the second video of yours I've watched.

It's all our (byers) fault. As long as we pay gold for shite, the quality control will be a joke

I give 5/10.to chinarello and 5/10.to Pinarello here. My 3 yr old well.used non branded Chinese frame is going strong. I'm.yet to see aa good tolerance on the headset bearing seats. I've had to epoxy bearing in with a release to remove play. Giant,, look,or Time then colnago are still.the go-to for.QC. if you're cashed up.an artisan but frame like a bauhm or Bastion etc.

Thanks form sharing this amazing work. Many Argentine championships have been won in chinarellos!!!

Thanks for your video, it was very informative, I purchased a 651 Think 2 Chinarello through Cycling Yong back in 2014 and have never had an issue with it, mind you I weigh 66 kgs, so not likely to have stressed the frame too much, I run DI2 Ultegra with C24 wheels, so from a cost point of view versus safety and reliability, I'm quite happy with the bike, but I would preface this by saying I'm only a 5000km a year rider, so the bike hasn't been put through a searching test, but I appreciate your observations and potential structural failures.

Raoul, thanks for this great video. Fascinating story you tell. Aluminum frames almost always have a gusset welded at the bottom of head tube/down tube junction. The genuine Pinarello was a carbon fiber counterpart of that gusset. The fake Pinarello does not! A failure waiting to happen, as you so correctly state. Best regards, stevesocal40

Which company manufactured the Chinarello? How old was it and how many km’s was it ridden before it was retired? We are dealing with small sample sizes for analysis. Are the same problems re-occurring in frames made by certain manufacturers? Raoul - your videos are highlighting important issues. Thank you and keep up the good work.

I bought a non-branded Pinarello inspired frame with the snake fork back in 2010 with a set of 80mm carbon wheels. That frame and wheels set is still going strong to this day. I would rather buy non branded, molded frame design over a branded replica. I would rather have a frame where you know they hopefully havent cut costs on the frame to fit in the paint job. With that being said, I doubt that any company selling sub-par products would still be around. Most Chinese Carbon factories have 10+ years and I prefer supporting the Chinese factories by buying their carbon products over a western brand. I have recently bought a Chromoly frame and using a brand called ToSeek for all the carbon parts (Seat-post, stem, handlebars, spacers) and built up a commuter and have over 3500Km on that build and not one issue with the carbon.

Great video! I wouldn't want to be on either of these bikes! For what Pinarello charges for their framesets, I would expect better from them. The quality of both of these is rubbish! I have always thought that this particular generation of the Dogma, with the wavy stays and forks looked ugly. Its overly complicated shape really served little purpose, and you have made the point that simpler is better when trying to obtain optimum quality. So far, I have seen very few bladder molded bikes that I have ever wanted to own, though I must admit that I do lust after the new S-Works SL7. Thanks again for this great video! Please cut up a few Colnagos for us!

This is like my 3rd time watching this, wish you did more of these comparisons, I love learning about carbon, thanks Raoul!

His videos are absolutely brilliant. You can learn so much. I’d love to see his take on Time frames which IMO are the high water mark of carbon fiber construction.

Funny thing is, assuming both pinarello and chinarello manufacturers have seen this video, who do you think will be more likely to fix their product's weakness?

Thank you so much for your content. Your video on the S Works SL5 Tarmac helped me to make a decision on purchasing a carbon bike frame set up. Some of this stuff is so over priced and poorly made it's silly.

BEST VIDEO OF 2020 so far. Laughed a lot. Chinarello=Pinarello, flaws everywhere. Sorry for the fanboys/- girls ... Keep on spending your money for crap!! The brand means nothing regarding quality... LOL and thank u Raoul, we need your cut-ups so much!!!!!

Chinarello Dogmane F21, my dream bike

Raoul just seen all your vids. Compelling, informative, balanced - Thank you. Parking the brand topic, my view issues are good / bad design, manufacturing process and QC existence (?) / efficacy. Recognising riders may want different things and it's buyer's choice (aka peril). For me it's simpler the process, less things to go wrong. Colnago pre-made lugs and tubes... all internals visible before assembly. Provided experienced operatives can align and glue A to B in a practised handbuilt process with pride and glue remains sound, ...happy days ! ( I do check lug / tube unions regular as part of bike cleaning)

Every time I ride here in Japan, I see many pinarellos, seem to be very popular among japanese riders. Also saw them in bicycle stores, they are quite expensive as well. Didn’t know that quality on these sucks!

Shocking. Thank you Mr. Luescher.

Great video. All cyclists should see this. It’s disappointing all around, really. A low-quality fake is expected, but I would hope a real Pinarello would be manufactured better than that. I’d love to see more videos like this, but I’m sure it’s not easy and certainly isn’t cheap.

Very informative. I would have expected much better quality out of the Pinarello given its 10x the price. Some comments claim Pinarello should be given some slack given the age of the bike. But hasn't the industry been making carbon fiber bikes for almost 40 years? I'll stick with my aluminum frame and inspect for fatigue periodically.

Best video yet Raoul. Great work.

I guess you never heard of tapping it with a coin and listening to check if its sounds cracked, works a treat and 100% safe

My Cannondale super 6 had a lifetime guarantee, yet when my bottom bracket lost its integrity, they would NOT entertain replacing it. WHY!; How long is a lifetime guarantee? Im now inclined to buy Chinese direct. The Chinarrello would make a good Zwift bike

Chinarellos and other knockoffs (especially the early versions) were made with the main selling point of “looking like” an expensive bike. Aside from being tacky, I wouldn’t ever trust or ride one. That said...I rode an open mould frame for years and had thousands of trouble free miles on it. I sold it locally and that rider also rode it for a long time. It’s now on its third owner and still going strong.

Thanks Raoul very interesting video. I have always wanted either a Pinarello or Colnago but the pension wouldnt stretch that far so I was hoping this was going to persuade to buy a copy. Well that's that idea out of the way then. Probably going to buy a Yoeleo frame set if they still do one with rim brakes as Oz Cycle seems to recommend them. Why the big brands cant see that if they lowered their prices the volumes the sold would treble over night I don't know. Alongside Oz Cycle , Hambini and a few others your now why of my go to channels. Stay safe out there.

Valid points here. I do wonder how their current F12 frameset holds up in this test. This cut frameset is 3 or 4 generations old. Would be interesting to see how things have improved if at all. I’m led to believe they have improved. If you keep making a frameset lighter and lighter, there is less margin for error in the layup process. One might say if any of these blemishes existed in something like the F12 Xlight, the results would be catastrophic on frame walls as thin as those. So much so, that in that instance, quality control really becomes safety control.

Great video - would have been helpful to initially point out that Pinarello does not manufacture their frame in a company owned facility in Italy, but sources it from a sub contractor in Asia (I think Giant).

Yesterday Oz talked me out of ever buying Ultegra or Durace cranksets (bonded arm garbage) today you convinced me to steer clear of Carbon frames. Looks like I stay with my vintage Casati Columbus steel bike and Campagnolo cranks.

Thank you for producing these videos, it’s great to see the difference here, it’s also shocking how poorly made the genuine frames are! I have 2 Bianchi’s and 2 Trek bikes, from now on I think I will be sticking with Trek as I feel their frames are better manufactured, i both would and wouldn’t like to see my Bianchi Specialissima cut in half! It would be interesting to see how good or badly made it is!

Man, all these videos really make me doubt ever buying a carbon bike with full carbon forks..... So what's a really good lightweight commonly available alloy frame that is affordable, not a superbike priced custom build? Cannondale CAAD?

35:30 I’d share your bias against counterfeits. But, time and again, these video’s point out that *at best* there is no discernable difference between the big brands and the Chinarello’s of this world. Imo, that should be the point of this video; why pay 5k when all the QC budget ends up being spent on marketing. When choosing between two evils, i would like to be in it for the least amount of money. My takeaway is, i’ll buy Chinese, just not a blatant copy.

It is for both a sample of 1. I would love seeing a few of each side to side to see the consistency of the build... seeing the seat tube of the genuine one, I would not be surprised that the wall thickness in the headset is a manufacturing glitch.

Great video. What I learned: buy whatever - and prey - hard...

Why did the real one end up in your workshop? You never talk about why the real one failed - was it a “failure”, or post crash? Great video - very thorough.

Totally agree with you on the fact that you should never buy a knockoff. But where is your condemnation for the “real” bike. What I saw was a sub par build on the Pinarello and definitely not worth the money they charge. IMHO

Appreciate the education. Thanks for the content. This type of eye opening subject matter is always better when delivered by a true Subject Matter Expert like yourself. I guess the proof of the pudding is still, in the tasting, and hopefully it’s not asphalt you end up tasting.

Thanks for the in-depth review!

I have a Chinarello for my trainer, the details is bad but from distance it’s shining beauty. Sometimes I take it out to go around, yes it’s light and no problems so far but for speed/ KOM I feel more safe on legit one. If you want to enjoy the ride say no to fake.

According to NTN I think it was, an average, low-end automobile has 38 (rolling element) bearings. Imagine if bike manufacturers made cars.

is anyone actually surprised?!

Carbon bikes in general are F'n scary, man. I think the only carbon brand that I would put 100% confidence in is Calfee, but at the price they go for I won't be buying one of those either. The solution? Buy steel, aluminum, or Ti (if you can afford it) from a reputable brand.

Although the chinarello cracked, we were never really there to see what the rider actually did, you even mentioned downhill on a rough road. But, I think to escalate things quickly as saying "would you buy something that could kill you" is very 9gag. As much as we don't want to buy fake stuff, truth is, China is all we poor people have because everything is made in China. As an engineer, if it is a blind test, I might pick the fake one because it has more cleaner layout and thicker resin. The video is really nice and the comparison is spot on. If any takeaway is due, I'd say is that pinarello with 10x the price, is NOT doing their job perfectly in laying out those fibers. I initially though, fake is a far 50% in quality, I never thought it'll be a neck and neck close.

Steel/Titanium for life

Initially, I was like "wow this is great stuff, they're not too far away from each other". Until the end, where he said "the copy can potentially kill you". That escalated quickly.

I'd say based on this video there isn't really that much of an improvement over a real Pinarello compared to a Chinarello. Kind of makes one wonder what one is paying for when they get a real Pinarello.

Great video. It's a shame that the chinarello people wouldn't just invest is some marketing and pr and develop their own brand. The technogy and process is obviously comparible to the pino with some issues with quality which I'm sure could be easily addressed.

Hoping you will do a full cut up on a Dogma F8, F10 or F12.

The creases on the outside of the frame look a bit sharper and more pronounced on the Pinarello, they are a bit softer on the fake.

The seatpost area on the Pinny is just as likely to fail as the headtube on the fake.

Are the problems (at the headtube, bearing race not seated and too little carbon near the junction) that were found in the Chinarello likely to be repeated in the manufacturing process? Would you wager that another frame from the same maker would have the same flaws? Why?

#1) Luescher/Hambini operate from a Convenience Sample, which doesn't give you the ability to infer much. Bikes that have been sent in are there because they've had issues. I doubt many people are sending in Pinarello frames to be cut up for the hell of it. #2) Nothing statistically is 100% all of the time without a lot of money in quality control and build costs. Some may argue that the cost of the Pinarello frame warrants this, but it would probably cost even more. There's going to be lemons and poorly manufactured products everywhere that are mass produced (i.e. I'm willing to bet that all car manufacturers have had recalls). #3) I laugh at all the people saying "steel is real", "that's why I ride my aluminum frame," as if you guys have never seen those materials crack and fail.

Not sure I would spend the enormous amount of money on an original Pinarello either. Given the exorbitant cost the seat post area looked as if it might fail as well. Only difference is, you have a guarantee.

Honestly my take home is that both showed major issues.. I would not want to be descending on a bike whose seatpost clamping area or seatstay decided to let go either. Potentially less catastrophic that a headtube failing seeing as it's slip fit, but could easily lead to a major crash in itself..

This seems to blow the Pinarello 'quality' mantra out of the water. I would be very upset if i have paid thousands for that load of rubbish.

Phew - so glad that 99.5% of my riding happens indoors on a KickR... so when my new frame (a $470 no-brand naked-carbon Chinese clone of a BMC TeamMachine SLR01) arrives, any differential in build quality barely matters[1]. Also, indoors there are no halfwits in insecurity wagons (SUVs) and other assorted moron-transporters trying to smoosh me or door me. No pedestrian crossings, traffic lights or T-intersections; no risk that someone steals my bike if I stop for a coffee. Zwift is *very* unrealistic in that respect. The most unrealistic thing though is being able to pedal non-stop for an hour at an average speed of 42km/hr starting at 5pm... without ever having your life at risk. (Hell, I can do that in my undies with a glass of wine next to my bike). [1] In reality it only *almost* doesn't matter. Very rarely I'm too lazy to walk a total of 2.2km to get something from Woolworths (or some booze from Aldi or BWS); then I ride my bike (currently a *real* Specialized Allez with Dura-Ace running gear). WIth the pending FUD-lethal horror of a knockoff Chinese frame I'll probably walk all the time.

thanks for your video, was actually looking to buy one today!!!! then found this , that's put me right off Pinarello . how much do we as cyclists get sucked into this . probable buy an S works when there available , thanks again 👍

Both frames display bad quality and the price difference is not justifiable. You could get seriously hurt with both frames.

Your posts are really good. Cheers.

My Dad had a Chinarello and he had to get rid of it because there was something wrong in the geometry and layup of the carbon. If he hit a small bump in the road at fairy low speed it would spring and stick you on the deck. He had 3 incidents of this and discarded it as it was dangerous.

Very interesting and informative and I have one of those Pinarello Prince frames from about 2010 and its my turbo bike now.

would be interesting to see your oppinion on the never fakes... F10 & F12

thank you china for making replicas of any article or object that are similar to the originals ...... even cell phones are made in china

Honestly, I wouldn't risk my life on the Chinarello or Pinarello because neither of them seems to stand the test of time. Even the Pinarello has production flaws that are not acceptable. It seems to me it is sheer luck if you get a proper built bike frame, be it Chinarello or Pinarello.

Hi. Have you done a recent canyon bike? If not is it on a list to do? Thanks.

It seems to me that the cable insert at the real Pinarello headtube junction is lower positioned than the fake. There is very little carbon surface between race and insert that probably causes much more stress. The material area around the cable insert seems to be larger and more evenly distributed in the fake frame.