Chinese Martial Arts History is Mostly FAKE - Chat w/Dr. Peter Lorge | The KFG Podcast  

Thank you!

It’s a huge honor to have you comment on my channel! I will get on that!

@@TheKungFuGenius Thank you and keep up the great work 🙏

Time stamps are in the automated transcript. Do you not see the grasshopper that is at your foot?

@KARATEbyJesse Timestamps have been added! Thanks for that recommendation.

@@TheKungFuGenius Awesome!! 👍

This is the problem with identification with groups and styles, it makes one disappointed if something about that identity is debunked.

On the other hand, to me it came as something of a relief - those associations always seemed like fitting square pegs into round holes to me.

​@@matthewmele764yes good point. I agree. It is a relief not having to wonder about making a technique work using the "creative cycle" or "destructive cycle". All that metal defeats wood nonsense.

Hahaha

Yes I want more!

I think you got a pretty enviable set up! We love what you do.

He’s the original “Beardy”!

@@TheKungFuGenius he really is! I was shocked to find out 😦

I do have this book, it’s also referenced in Dr Lorge’s book. It’s an excellent book, although not without its issues.

I apologize for that! We have rarely missed a Monday premiere, but last week I taught my yearly Intensive Training Camp and my editor (who was also a participant) and I got a bit behind.

English, like any other language, is a tapestry woven from various sources, each contributing unique words and meanings to its lexicon. While many words in English have well-documented etymologies, there are some incredibly rare words that have fascinating origins. Let's delve into the enchanting world of these linguistic gems. One such word is "floccinaucinihilipilification," which holds the distinction of being one of the longest non-technical words in the English language. This tongue-twister originates from Latin, comprising four Latin words: "flocci," "nauci," "nihil," and "pili," which individually mean "of little value," "of no value," and "hair." The word was coined in the 18th century, primarily as a playful and humorous way to describe the act of deeming something as trivial or worthless. Another rare word worth mentioning is "sesquipedalian," which ironically means "characterized by long words" or "given to using long words." Its etymology dates back to ancient Rome, with "sesqui" meaning "one and a half" and "pedalis" meaning "feet." The term originally referred to words that were a foot and a half long when written, showcasing the penchant for verbosity in certain individuals. These rare words, with their intriguing etymologies, add a touch of whimsy and intellectual curiosity to the English language. They serve as reminders of the rich tapestry of words that make up our linguistic heritage and remind us that even the most obscure terms can have a fascinating backstory.

It’s Wednesday!

@TheKungFuGenius very true! One of those damn days! That makes it even worse!!!

I know fam.. thats crazy right! 😂❤lol. 🤙🏿

Yeah we still gotta make to Friday dude we are totally in the dark now and you did not even threw us a candle

Not all. But the wing chun origin stories are definitely fictional. According to the experts that is. 💯☺️🙏

Chinese history has quite a lot of written records, much older than most cultures. But like many, they have some myths and nonsense. But there are many honest accounts of Chinese history and society in the various dynasties. Meanwhile there are people in the “scientific” west that believe an all powerful deity sent a worldwide flood cause he didnt like what his creation was doing and one guy put two every species of every animal on a boat. George Washington and chopping apple trees etc…

@@TheKungFuGenius I see what you mean. Propaganda over the years like. Using the stories to mask reality. 😃🤙🏿💯

Understanding the culture is to know that they are very hyperbolic.

And it is that exact hyperbole that makes their CMA history a hot dumpster fire of nonsense. People are parsing through phony mythology to figure out what’s real instead of just starting with what we have evidence for… which is a very small amount. When you lack evidence, you have to curb claims, not the other way around. Coulda woulda shoulda is not a fact.

Need more dates and specifics to be considered a “mystery” breaker. The boxer rebellion was the Yi Wo Tuen cult, hardly a representative of what would’ve been considered mainstream martial arts at that time. This is a common trope that people believe in, but it’s very superficial at best. You are making mild claims that certain events are the reasons why there are no records and you have presented zero actual records (facts, dates) to substantiate that. This is almost like a religious apologist argument: If you want to be taken more seriously than an actual professor of Chinese history, try a little harder.

@@TheKungFuGenius I get your point but you misunderstood mine. The point was that there was no "mainstream" martial arts at that time (1800s and prior). The "cult" you are referring to was one of many secret societies that also had martial arts. So if they did train in specific techniques, they probably kept them secret and thus why no records for later generations. Along with the fact that grassroots techniques for self defense which were also common likely had no formal training or documentation. just like there is no formal body of knowledge for street figthing today. I think the problem is that today people want to assume that there were formal schools and bodies of knowledge for these kinds of "martial arts" but that is the myth. And part of the reason for the later revisionist movement of the 1920s and onwards was to overcome the stigma of martial arts being mostly fanatical cults like the Boxers. Again, tying in to the impact of the defeat of the boxers and the whole conquest of China by superior western technology. On the other hand we do know there was a formal body of knowledge for military martial arts and those texts have survived and exist for various time periods in ancient China.

But that is exactly the problem and why your argumentation, besides being very typical, doesn’t cut it for historical methods. “There are no historical records because (insert reasons) therefore let me tell you what it would’ve been in spite of me having no records as to what they actually were.” When there are no records, regardless of what the reasons are, we cannot pre-suppose therefore there were things that should have or could have been recorded, and even worse we cannot say what those things actually were. We can only say there are no records. What we can talk about is what we do have records of and that’s it. The useless interjection and speculation has not helped Chinese martial arts thus far and shouldn’t continue. To say there are no records because they kept them secret or to say that self-defense techniques were common and not formal are also claims. Every single time you make a positive claim you have to have evidence to back it up. This is the part you seem to be missing. Positive claims require positive evidence. With a lack of evidence, no claim can be made. The burden of proof rests on the one making the claim, such as yours about the grassroot techniques and secret Martial arts training societies. If there is no evidence to back up that assertion then everything you say can be summarily dismissed. This is why this very little that can be said about Chinese martial arts history.

@@TheKungFuGenius They are called secret societies by the historical documentation themselves. I didn't make that up so it isn't speculation. We know for a fact that such groups like the Boxer existed is the point and that they were part of the practice of martial arts and this is certainly historically documented. You are trying to pigeonhole understanding and research into proving "formal schools" of Martial Arts existed as opposed to various folk, grassroots or informal traditions which is what I was pointing out. And this isn't an issue of writing. China isn't unique. "Martial arts" of some sort or other we know for a fact has existed in many parts of the world and technically any kind of figthing technique is a martial art. Not sure what kind of point you are making because martial arts exited before writing and are not required to be written down. That does not preclude or limit historical research. Again, this idea that all these martial arts were formally organized into schools with standard documentation as opposed to a much more loosely organized informal system (outside the govt/military) is the myth and you just keep trying to reinforce that myth. And when I say formal I mean formal like modern Karate schools with formal training, rankings, tournaments and so forth.

@dnifty1 please send me the documentation that secrets societies were practicing martial arts. Not the folklore I mean the actual documentation.

That may be, but then it doesn't jibe with the actual definition of immortal nor what most Chinese would assume that means.

I would like such a group discussion! And I would also like to know besides King Arthur about Robin Hood. There was a documentary over 10 years ago, and they stated most probably Robin Hood was in real life a man named Robert Hod, but he wasnt so "nice" like the mythical Robin Hood. He infact stole from rich people, but first and foremost for himself, not for others. But they changed his name from Robert Hod to Robin Hood and made him like a romantic superhero. I dont know what is true.

I don’t think he mentioned the name of the book

In the annals of time, there exists a tale of a legendary kingdom nestled amidst towering mountains and lush valleys. This fabled realm, known as Eldoria, was said to be ruled by a wise and just monarch, whose reign brought prosperity and harmony to its people. The kingdom's grand architecture, adorned with intricate carvings and golden embellishments, stood as a testament to the artistic prowess and architectural marvels of the time. Eldoria was renowned for its renowned scholars and philosophers, who gathered in the great halls of wisdom to engage in intellectual debates and unravel the mysteries of the universe. It was within these hallowed halls that groundbreaking discoveries were made, propelling the kingdom to the forefront of scientific and philosophical advancements. The wisdom garnered in Eldoria became a beacon of enlightenment, attracting scholars from far and wide, eager to partake in the kingdom's intellectual legacy. However, like all great empires, Eldoria eventually faced its trials and tribulations. A cataclysmic event, shrouded in myth and legend, befell the kingdom, plunging it into an era of darkness. The once-thriving realm was consumed by strife and turmoil, as its people grappled with the challenges that lay before them. Yet, in the face of adversity, the spirit of Eldoria endured, and its people rallied together, determined to restore their beloved kingdom to its former glory. Though the tale of Eldoria may be a fabrication of the imagination, its essence resonates with the human desire for progress, knowledge, and resilience. It serves as a reminder that even in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles, the indomitable spirit of a society can prevail, leaving a lasting legacy for generations to come.

What never mind I just found it ,that’s super cool !

The audio version of this podcast is available pretty much anywhere people listen to audio podcasts. Thanks for supporting!

Glad you enjoyed it!

thank you!

Exactly what I’ve been saying for years! If it’s not on RU-vid, it never happened!

Probably “Creation of Wing Chun”

@@TheKungFuGenius My guess too...I have a few video reviews about it. A real gem.Thanks for the reply.

(by the way, I wrote this response to another comment a long time ago, I just adjusted it slightly for yours because it’s a common thing I get) The question is the problem. The three religions (actually philosophies) of Taoism, Mahayana Buddhism, and Confucianism are hard-wired into Chinese culture. Nothing escapes its influence, so much so than many Chinese don’t know what parts of their culture come from which of these philosophies. The use of family terms within the martial arts school is very Confucian as are the teaching methods of most schools. But very few people discuss the Confucian influence as both Buddhism and Taoism are much sexier to people who grew up with Kung Fu movie fantasies. The similarities of the Wu Sau to Buddhist prayer hands, the Gwan Sau being similar to the Taoist (twisting flower hand) as well as other superficialities only highlight the prescience of these cultures on the founders/players of the style. To say the centerline is analogous to the “middle way” of Buddhism is misunderstand Buddhism entirely. The idea that the Buddha would endorse concepts meant to relieve suffering in the individual for increasing suffering in one’s enemy is patently absurd. Likewise Taoism in application is often used as a method to use cunning to overcome an enemy. The Art of War exploits Taoist-like ideas to defeat an enemy. But it would be a hard sell to say that was the original concept behind Taoism was to use it to fool and overcome opponents. Just like the common idiom used in Hong Kong to this day, to say that you “play tai chi“ with someone means that you are bullsh*tting them. I think it is more of these cultural applications of these philosophies rather than their original doctrines that is at play here. For sure, many Chinese martial arts were developed by people who were either Taoist or Buddhist, but that says nothing as to whether we need to continue to uphold these if we are going to try to maintain effectiveness as our driving force. One must also not forget that for a Buddhist to develop a fighting style is to go out publicly and say that they reject certain tenets, specifically the ones of nonviolence. So a Chinese martial art can only be as “Buddhist” as to say it rejects Buddhism because it is about fighting. Fancy platitudes about a Zen mind and a middle path don’t make up for the fact that you are trying to smash someone’s face with a fist or palm or elbow. Twenty years ago, I would’ve agreed with what you wrote, and I often presented WT in a way similar to your comment. The more I’ve spent time in Hong Kong with instructors of the art, as well as read about the history of Chinese martial arts in general, the less likely I feel this is anything more than a subtle cultural tint on a fighting art. After all, what matters in a combat art is that it is effective and can protect you, not that it follows superficial movements of a religion or philosophy. Especially absurd when those religions or philosophies are extremely anti-violence. If you don’t think there was animosity, historically, or even still in contemporary society between these various factions, then you’re not looking hard enough. As the late great Chinese martial arts historian Brian Kennedy said, the imprint of these philosophies onto Chinese fighting styles is a relatively modern phenomenon. If you could go back in time 300 years ago and ask a martial artist if his style was Buddhist or Taoist, they would probably look at you with a curious eye, wondering why you’re trying to connect religion to fighting. But this connection is a cherished belief for a few people and hard for them to give up. Meanwhile, the rest of us on this side are focusing on sparring and improving the methods for future generations. Looking back to philosophies as justifications is not the way.

@@TheKungFuGenius Ohh, I actually might have a theory on why the connection between religion and fighting... it might just be the way i read or heard the biographies as a HOBBYIST... It comes down to balancing reputation... How to differentiate one murder hobo from a sea of murder hobos vying for the same position... The answer is "An Enlightened Murder Hobo"! It tugs at heart strings for a employer to listen to a refined murder hobo. :) These similarities happen across different cultures. Even Musashi started cleaning himself up (after famously bashing kojiro's head in) adopted buddhism, started calligraphy, black smithing and pottery and found employment as a sword master... 1600s I got the summary from a Shihan of Niten Ichi Ryu years ago. :) In other news, even the encyclopedia, seem to be invoking master oogway... as if he is beyond all the sh!t he created. :) So i could not discount it yet... its still a possibility to twist religion to use it like a mask for kung fu or other nefarious things. It would be interesting to know how your talks with hongkong sifus dissolved this story. These artifacts are fascinating to me as they MAY point to something in the past Like the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma, and how it's logic skews the fighting stance and approach... If these artifacts never existed, they would be like modern martial arts then.. that seem to wanna expose their groin because "rules"...

@MrOsiric remember most “attestations” to this connection are in literary fiction, not actual historical records. Very much like the claim that Christians built all the hospitals in Europe, well if that’s the dominant religion of an area then there was no one else to do it. But that doesn’t make medicine “Christian”. Also, and this can’t be emphasized enough - the story is the claim, it’s not the evidence. Hearing a story, even multiple times, does not elevate it to fact or even worth examination of its at odds with historical record. Chinese martial artists want to have their cake and eat it too - they want the claim of the story mean that “there must be something there” even if every jot and tittle of the story is at complete odds with the actual historical record. When this can’t be found in China, they move the goalpost to Japan. Different culture, different history, same set of issues. As far as the “encyclopedia“, rather he should be referred to as an encyclopedia salesman. If I published the WhatsApp messages from behind the scenes, one would see he is the furthest away from anything remotely enlightened. He lurks my comments for even brief insinuations of his name. Thankfully, I blocked them so I don’t have to get his psychotic ex-girlfriend style behavior anymore.

@@TheKungFuGenius I see, truly sad for the state of record keeping in CMA. It looks like all we can ever derive from are false leads or just speculations... and that guy is truly NOT helping... I finally understand what he's trying to do... caught a glimpse of his intentions in an old interview where he happily recounted how he betrayed his two sifus... With the mask of authority he wears and infusing more magical internal mumbojumbo, the passage of time, he could shape CMA BS history into his own BS history. ;)

He also didn’t make it clear whether it was an open or closed system, and he said if anyone was fighting over the meaning of the name after his death that it should be wiped out. That ship has long since sailed everyone fights over their interpretation, claiming to understand the mind of a Chinese man they never met.

@@TheKungFuGenius oh it’s an open system for sure. That’s what Bruce intended. JKD was heavily influenced by philosophy, it’s the core. And huge amounts of philosophy that Bruce really emphasized was about never staying the same, the constant change in life.

@francosalinas4459 again making claims about the inner thoughts of someone you never met is a weird slippery slope. There are multiple notes and passages both in English and in Chinese, which would directly disagree with the statements you just made. When interpreting someone else’s ideas, skepticism should be the default point not confidence that you understand what another man’s process was. Bruce literally wrote letters to his students which say the exact opposite of what you just said.

@@TheKungFuGenius really? I’d be interested in who are the students ? And can I find these online?

Yes, this is the reason why the longer you dig, the less clear it is. The famous Poteet letter from Bruce about what JKD “is” and “isn’t” makes a very strong case against the JKD concepts/open system argument. I personally don’t have an opinion (that’s worth sharing) it’s just clear that certainty regarding what JKD is as a (insert art/system/philosophy whatever) is not nearly as straightforward as it is at first glance.

Our pleasure!

I would love to know what the stats on that are. I’m sure it’d be shocking!

More likely- they just hid out at various temples until the heat was off of them.

Japanese and Chinese mass killers with PTSD and some ill gotten loot....

Facts. 💯

@@tharealjonrubio1653 word to the mother!

I have that book and it’s great, but it’s not without its problems.

It’s actually not well-known because a lot of people do believe in all the fairytale nonsense whether it’s on the Taoist side or the Shaolin side. Also, if I watch a podcast that’s an hour long about almost any topic (unless it’s astrophysics)… I will probably know one or two things already that are discussed. That says nothing for the content as a whole or for all the other points that are made. Also, to comment on the content of a video when you’re only 20 minutes into it when it’s at least an hour long might makes you look kind of silly. But something tells me since your opinion is already formed in the first 20 minutes it’ll be the same opinion at the end of the video. This is why we have to leave research to academics and not to reactionary types.

That is long debunked, and the entire narrative of Bodhidharma having anything to do with martial arts is not something any scholar has taken seriously for a long time. The connection of “Indian martial arts” to Shaolin is equally absurd - I don’t know anyone who’s even posited that theory since 2001. The problem with those theories that attempt to make connections to Indian based origins is that they are reverse engineered from the myths of Bodhidharma rather than being based on historical methodology. In other words, once people fabricated a connection between Zen Buddhism and martial arts all they needed to do was find some tenuous connection to their being martial arts in India and suddenly they have a theory based on confirmation bias. Kalari movements and weapon systems are further away from Shaolin martial arts than many “Shaolin martial arts” are from each other. It is an incoherent theory.

You can simply compare Kalari to Shoalin and see the similarities also Kalari is an almost forgotten martial art. Of course the story is a myth but it's based on some real things. It's got to do with Taoist philosophy if you can make sense of what I'm talking about.

@larryleguizamon2906 you can make comparisons and find similarities to Greek Pankration statues and Jiu Jitsu, and identical moves in European quarterstaff and Chinese pole fighting, 19th century boxing to Wing Chun etc etc etc. Are we now claiming Kung Fu came from Europe? There are always going to be similarities between fighting style from different cultures and this proves nothing of a connection. Chinese martial arts predate the Bodhidharma connection. The theory of the Indian connection has been debunked, if you want to keep pushing it you’re like a flat-Earther at this point. Likewise the connection of fighting to philosophies like Taoism and Buddhism is a much more recent invention. You can repeat the claim, but a claim is not evidence.

It's interesting cause it goes even further back to Africa even the clothing that Taoist priest wear are identical to what the Africans still wear and the fly swatter. I had evidence of this stuff but it's lost. Shoalin was a place where retired soldiers went because of the killings they went into hiding. Martial arts existed all over the world but it was taught by word of mouth and nothing was really written. Interesting topic I hope you keep looking into it.

@larryleguizamon2906 sorry I mistook you for someone serious, not someone who mistakes confirmation bias for facts. This conversation has lost my interest.

Thank you! I think it is because I didn't talk much hahahaha

But you should be allowed like walking around with a kendo sword or a katana in japan going to marital arts class

Thanks for your comment. I could not care less. The point is to develop the system further for future generations and not to rely on fairytales and past exploits of people real or imagined. I accept that most of the history that is told for my art is fake and it doesn’t bother me one bit because that has nothing to do with stopping a takedown or a punch to the face.

@@TheKungFuGenius Its only recently I've already managed to convince myself that Wing Tsun theories are sound... Decades ago, i watched video clips of yipman's most prominent students... I told my cousin... id rather take jeet kune do.. :P Was it always that apparent in Germany? The KFG has tried many other arts, we know how he started... But what kept him glued to Wing Tsun? :)

@@TheKungFuGenius There is also THAT little ray of hope with regards to historicity... I went back to your last conversation with Jim Roselando with a bit more understanding of what is being talked about... I seem to have missed the significance of it the first time...... Leung Bik is real!!! Yip Man and Leung Bik actually met as their timelines match!! And its trackable information from Leung Jan's descendants?!? If one were to speculate, Yip Man got to compare notes with Leung Jan's son who is as knowledgeable to art as his own father.... That makes Yip Man SUPER DUPER LEGIT!!! On a more conservative estimate, Yip Man's history.... is not BS!! :) I understand we could only speak in probabilities. :) You guys talked about it in hushed tones and in just a few sentences... But this find sounds like its extremely valuable to the whole of Yip Man's lineage? :)

According to Bujinkan, at least one school was taught to Japanese by a Chinese hiding in the mountains. There is a long history of espionage, sabotage and assassination in Asia. See Anthony Cummins books. Also see Kacem Zoughari's The Ninja which is a scholarly work.

@anthonyspaltro3643 I’ll look that book up! Thanks!

How’s it going. Hot out here like 85 in Boston. I was glad to see the show for my early cookout. 😃🤙🏿💯i started today for the fourth. Happy 4th everybody. 😎👈🏻💯

Saying you are calling out BS is not the same as making a case. -most Hung Ga history is made up from the same local folklore that was the seed for other plagiarized stories (mostly repurposed Tin Dei Wui lore) which are also completely without evidence. in fact, when you try to look for the evidence from those “five elder” stories (and the origin stories of most southern Chinese martial arts), the actual evidence contradicts the folklore in those fairytales. The sacking and burning of the Shaolin temple (besides the one that happened in the 20th century) was a late Ming dynasty affair. It does not even fit into the timeline, nor are there any special survivors attached to it, nor do they lineup with any of the given histories of the other styles. There is a mountain of evidence to suggest that there was zero reputation for the so-called fighting monks, until they were created as a late legend through stories, but not through actual documented proof. The few stories of monks fighting with poles and helping the government fight various “bandits” are not stellar stories in themselves, and those are the ones we actually have records for. -your teacher may be a swell guy, but the fact that he told you things does not mean that they are true. Historians have to look at actual evidence, records, and corroborating facts, including statements made against interest. When none exist one either accepts it or they just say “no I kinda like this stuff I believe in already because someone swell told it to me.“. -what people said Even before the PRC only counts for evidence if there are corroborating facts. You can hear all sorts of people saying all sorts of different things about history that doesn’t make it true. I’m sorry if you have a low threshold for evidence, but that’s not how actual history works. Large claims require evidence, not just hearsay or the so-called testimony of people who don’t exist anymore. If you believe you are in possession of evidence that the good professor has not seen, why don’t you provided so I can send it to him? Academics are more than happy to be corrected on the record because that is their job. People who have claims often don’t like being corrected because they go against a belief system. Good historians don’t have a framework of belief they have a framework of evidence. So if you got it… My contact info is in the description. Please send it to me so I can make sure that the good professor is up on everything that you are. Please send me that evidence.

Easiest interview for me!

@@TheKungFuGenius ❤️

Thanks!

Hip hop name vibes

@@TheKungFuGenius Word !!!!

As you shouldn’t. No one should pay for WING CHUNG HAHAHA

@@TheKungFuGenius hahaha true these days, unfortunately back in the late 70's and 80's there was no mixed martial arts, you had to train in a number of different traditional ones.

And back then people spoke face to face rather than giving life advice anonymously to strangers in the comments.

@@TheKungFuGenius Yes we did, but we also shared anonymously. I was born in 1966, and have spent a great deal of my life in martial arts. Gung fu, western boxing, Tae Kwon do and Judo.. It's much easier today to combine all of that.

Just found you channel, keep it up.

History and words are hard, I get it. I'll get back to talking about Bruce Lee conspiracies stat.

@TheKungFuGenius LOL ... I actually listened to the whole thing. I just ordered his book

I went out on a limb with this episode because it is definitely tonally different from the other ones, but I’m glad people are responding (more or less) positively. Words and history are hard.

I would ask you the same!