So if it wasn't to create a holiday rivaling paganism, why DID early Christians think of December 25 as a probably birthday for Jesus? Three Christians from the early 200s play an important role in that story: St. Hippolytus of Rome, St. Clement of Alexandria, and Sextus Julius Africanus. Each used knowledge of the Jewish, Roman and (in Julius' case) Egyptian calendar to try to figure out something of a Bible timeline - everything from the beginning of the world to the birth and crucifixion of Jesus. Believing Jesus was conceived at Passover time, they calculated forward to get December 25 (or 28th, in Julius' case). Whatever the merits of their chronology, it's 100% clear that they WEREN'T trying to battle pagan feast days. They were trying to sort of the timeline of the Bible. For more on this, two good (short) scholarly resources are Thomas C. Schmidt's "Calculating December 25 as the Birth of Jesus in Hippolytus’ Canon and Chronicon"(tcschmidtblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/schmidt-calculating-december-25-as-the-birth-of-jesus-in-hippolytus1.pdf) and C. Philipp E. Nothaft's "Early Christian Chronology and the Origins of the Christmas Date (www.academia.edu/3265107/Early_Christian_Chronology_and_the_Origins_of_the_Christmas_Date_In_Defense_of_the_Calculation_Theory_).
Jesus was born 41 days before Passover according to my calculations. I believe this was in the third week of our January that year. About a year after the curiosity that made me count days, i found the proof. First you need to remember that there were some faithful who had been promised to live long enough to see the messiah. Like Jesse the father of David they were greatly advanced in years or שלג. This word has an interesting spelling of 300 + 30 + 3 which caught my attention. The baby boy must necessarily be presented in the temple at 40 days of age. So late in the afternoon on the eve of Passover Anna and Simeon were present when Mary and Joseph arrived. Anna no doubt lived in the surrounding cloisters as she never left the temple. The word says that she summoned the others. The child was recognized, blessed and magnified. After God's promise was fulfilled, Simeon gave up the ghost. (I should say here that on this day, years later, Jesus,too, would give up his spirit.) The evidence of this being true is found in historical record. On Passover morning, the temple workers arrived to prepare for the activities of the day. To their surprise there were dead bodies strew about! The temple was defiled, Passover was rescheduled and the hated Samaritans were blamed. From that day forward Samaritans were not permitted on temple grounds. (You will please excuse any typos. Age has damaged m eyesight.) I have some thoughts about Bethlehem which are opinion as differing from the above which is fact. Bethlehem had been the location of Solomon's stables for his brood mares. Armies require war horses and the wealthy Solomon may have had substantial stone stables constructed. The image of the horse in scripture is seldom noticed. An army in ancient times was called the hore. God refers to Istael as his majestic horse in battle. When even Elijah cowered in fear of Jezebel, a horse appeared to trample her to death in the horse gate. There is a play on words of the horse being a vain thing for safety. Susa, i understand, was named for the horse. And are all things vanity? Or are all things by and of our savior. Jesus is the salvation of Jah. He will come again as Jah sus. (Just a thought)
@@user-ri5ff8ll4z so, the problem with just spouting "fallacy!" Is that all lines of reasoning which are fallacious in one context are sound in another. For instance, if I'm trying to convince you that guinea pigs make good pets, and someone calls me a Nazi, this is an ad hominem, because it doesn't actually relate to the argument. *But*, if I'm trying to convince you I am a man of good moral character and than someone calls me a nazi, this is actually not a fallacy at all, because while it's still an attack on my person, it's also relevant to the topic. This in mind, the source of an argument is actually not fallacious when they argument itself only exists to point at the source. Pointing out that the group is heretical is relevant, because they aren't making this video simply for academic reasons, but are making it to get people in the right mind to accept heresy by attacking orthodox practices
I question trinitarianism (I find the arguments in favor of Trinitarianism weak, and based in outside interpretation of the Bible/mistranslations, but still believe Jesus is the Son of God and the most perfect of man/the Last Adam/The Savior), but MAN does the guy/group in this video sound like they're either absolutely and completely incompetent at Biblical Research, or they're actually heretics trying to undermine Christianity by disconnecting Christians from Christ/God/The Christian Faith.
I think one could make a good distinction here. The celebration of Christmas as the birth of Jesus is very ancient in the church and not pagan. On the other hand, some of the trappings of a modern Christmas have a much later origin and are culturally specific. For example, holly, mistletoe, Christmas trees, Yule logs. Some of those things were also used in ancient pagan cultures at the time of the winter solstice. I am not sure the history of their adoption in Christian observance, but I do not think there’s any problem with them, unless they co-opt the emphasis on the birth of Christ as they certainly have done in the modern world.
Simply give the scripture that he was born on Christmas? or there were 3 wise men? The sad part of Christmas is people will remember Jesus one day out of the year, Dec.25th and the rest of the year they could care less about Jesus. I remember the Lord everyday and every Sunday I remember his Death, burial and resurrection by partaking of the Lord's Supper. Without his death, his birth would mean nothing. Will be waiting a long time for the scripture because it isn't there
"Why did you choose May 9th to celebrate your birthday? Clearly this is a reference to the soviet memorial day of victory, your birth has communist origins!"
It's always interesting how these Prot denominations that claim to be "1st century biblical Christianity" are anything but. Great video as always, Joe.
I realize that this video is about why Christmas is not pagan, but I had to laugh when the guy in the video said 400s… Mainstream Christian churches… what on earth did he mean by mainstream??? There was only one Church at that time.
There seems to have always been Gnostics and other species of heretics around, so perhaps he thinks of Catholic as mainstream, and himself identifies with the heretics.
@@isabelfigueiredo6271 Os nomes que damos aos dias comuns (feira) são referência à semana santa da idade média onde ninguém trabalhava, era uma semana de 'férias', então segunda-feira era o segundo dia de férias da semana santa, e isso se manteve, exceto pelo sábado que vem dos judeus (shabat) dia de descanso, e do domingo (dominus) que é o dia do senhor.
As a recent science masters graduate, I love that you brought in the source about dairy farming and livestock breeds. I never would have thought to look into that!
25:11 _“To help you answer that, let's consider our first fundamental question: Number one: Does God condone lies?”_ I laughed out loud. Are they really *this* self-unaware? EDIT: Thanks for the information about the Awassi sheep. It's not certain that this breed of sheep was popular in 1st-Century Judaea, but it does manage to prove that it isn't impossible for (adult) shepherds to be out in the fields in late December. I still think that it's not necessarily the case that Our Lord was born in December 25th, but since if should he have been born on some other date we cannot know what it is, then we might as well celebrate His birth on December 25th, which is as good a day as any of the other 364.
Owning animals and caring for them isn’t limited to the time of year. I’ve had to be midwife to our goats in winter, I fail to see why people would think shepherds of any era would neglect their animals just because it is cold.
All their teaching on popes, Peter, Mary, justification , Mass, penance , priesthood, are all unbiblical to name some of them! Not one of them stands up to close scrutiny compared to Scripture. K@@irishandscottish1829
Thanks you Mr Heshmyer for the clarity you present at catholic answers. I do have to admit that I sometimes break out in a uncontrollable laughter when you explain the truth. For example. Anyone can take any Christian feast day on the calendar and associate it with a pagan holiday. LOL. I apologize. My apologetics aren't as apologetic as yours which is why I watch your videos. God have mercy on my soul.
Joe, the more I listen, the angrier I get!!! What if people that don't listen to your rebuttal start believing this guy! Thank you for everything you do! Without you, people could not defend the Truth 🥰
There is also the analysis of the date of conception using the time Zachariah was assigned to serve at the temple. This was done in a rotating schedule for the different families who served there. Mary visited Elizabeth while Zachariah was at the temple (I think the rotating schedule was two weeks a year) and that was in what would be the month of March. So He would definitely would have been born in the month of December. I don’t think the date is as important as that but if Mary got pregnant during the last two months of March then she would have given birth in the last weeks of December. If the early Christians celebrated the 25 then that’s when we should celebrate
John the Baptist Feast of his nativity is June 24th. Zachariah's cycle was twice a year. Which puts him in the Temple in mid to later september. 6 months later, March 25th, is Gabriel's Annunciation to Mary.
Pretty sure john the baptist's nativity is part of the whole cycle starting from march 25th being creation day/annunciation/good friday, its 3 months after mar 25th, which is the time mary spent with elizabeth at the visitation. I dont think we can use that to prove when zacariah was in temple, it is circular reasoning. I agree with the early church and Joe about the date of christmas, just not this particular line of reasoning
@stananders2333 Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: 1 Chronicals 24:7-19 list the priestly courses. The courses are repeated every year. 1 Chronicles 24:The first lot fell to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah, 8 the third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim, 9 the fifth to Malkijah, the sixth to Mijamin, 10 the seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah, According to the Babylonian Talmud, the course of Jehoiarib was on duty during the destruction on Solomon's Temple 9th day of AV 587. The course of Jehoiarib was on duty again during The Second Temple destruction on the 9th day of Av(early August) 70 AD. 7 courses later was Abijah(Abia, Abias).The time Zechariah was in the Temple, would correlate right about the time of The Day of Atonement. Late Septemberish. 6 months later would be late March. The traditional date of the Gabriel's Annunciation to Mary is March 25th. The traditional date for John The Baptists birth is 3 months later, June 24th. 6 months later is Dec. 24th/25th
Messianic Christians say Jesus Christ was born in September around the fall feasts like Succot. But even if so, then He was conceived in December and it would still be ok to celebrate then because that's an important part of the Christmas story.
They’re using an interesting strategy. I don’t remember the exact term or phrase for it. For example, “many people know Christmas is pagan; you probably know this as well”. So they’re running a function that “pagan Christmas is something well known, and if you don’t know, you probably should get on board but since you’re watching our video, you’re of a special cohort that’s smart enough to know, oh and btw, we’re Bible based”
I'm sorry, but I can only listen to his pomposity for so long. His circuitous logic and his constant conflation is making me crazy. I do, however, appreciate your patience and how you address each issue clearly, concisely, and honestly. You're a better man than I.
Santa Claus was great when I was a kid. He didn't take away from celebrating Jesus' birth at all. And I don't feel I was "lied" to either. And since he comes from a Catholic saint I don't see what the problem would be. The only person in my family who wouldn't "lie" to his children about Santa, wasn't very religious and doesn't attend church.
The instant I heard him referring to Jesus simply as a prophet automatically clued me in that they don't see Jesus is God. So I really don't care what they say
I much prefer the Spanish tradition of the three king bearing gifts on January 6th. I don't agree with the argument that parents lie to their children when they claim Father Christmas brings presents.
I agree, parents are not lying to their children. Santa Claus is a form of storytelling for children that forms their sense of wonder and cultivates their imagination! It's good for kids, in my opinion.
It’s not just a Spanish tradition - it’s also an Irish tradition. My dad in his 70’s always celebrated ‘little Christmas’ where he and his siblings were given a small gift and he passed it on to us kids.
@@milkeywilkie- Personal opinion that the proto moment of modern atheism is discovering that gifts that came from a person who is judging behavior is just your parents, quite often looking to insist on good behavior. Even mild untruths can have lasting effects.
Quoting CBS! Stand back Hippolytus. Take a number Africanus. Put that Bible down. This guy has some real source material. Sorry, a bit uncharitable here. Thank you Joe.
God can not lie says the man who doesn’t believe that Jesus IS the bread of life. He said “this is My Body… this is My Blood… Do this in memory of Me” after telling them they HAD to eat, gnaw and chew, His Body and drink His Blood to live. They claim to be biblical but the deny the Real Presence and the fact that the Eucharist is not a symbol.
Merry Christmas 🎄 I don't care. Any chance to celebrate the Incarnation with Christians worldwide is good w me. I remember when atheists here in Portland were giving out free DVD's of the film Zeitgeist. 🤮
So why doesn’t he celebrate Hanukkah? Because in the gospel of John it shows Jesus celebrating this important Jewish holiday. Interesting to note that Jesus celebrated this but the history of it isn’t recorded in any of the books of the Jewish or protestant Old Testament.
I felt dragged into the Santa thing. We were not going to church at the time, so I had no replacement. Thankfully we never made a big deal of it. Parents seem to love the concept but it's very short lived. They get a similar "wow" if they just bring out their presents on Christmas Day, without the whole add on of a modern Santa whose clothing can be traced Coca-Cola.
I'm fine with him. We don't overdo it. I'm going to tell my daughters about St. Nicholas and he embodies the spirit of generosity we want during the year. I think it's the only way to make it full circle.
@@femaleKCRoyalsFan- Oh sure. His modern red and white suit however is from advertising from Coca-Cola. European festivals with St. Nicolas have him dressed as bishop or more traditional European clothing.
Well my oldest daughter is 3. I might have to approach this when she is capable of more abstract thought, but our goal is to get her to see these things as symbols that have a deeper meaning, but people have confused them for the meaning. @@atrifle8364
The organization could not answer my questions about their program about ''Should Christians celebrate Christmas.'' They're response was: Current information is presently unavaible.
I saw a comment on a website that claimed that the date of December 25th was due to Saturnalia but the twist was that the winter solstice was different back then because they used the Julian calendar instead of the Gregorian calendar that we use today. Sounds like a lot of hot air to me.
@@michaelrome3527 Interesting. I do wish Catholic answers live would have Fr Ripperger on, I know that much. I’ll still listen since most of the time their stuff is great.
The heestory of the necktie can be traced back to the period of the French War in the 17th century. Croatian mercenaries, who were hired by King Louis XIII, had a piece of red cloth tied around their neck with their costume. This fancy red cloth captured the attention of the King.
God did an Incarnation, and Satan has always been trying to distract from that fact, so… it’s better to ignore the event because Satan doesn’t like it? Cool story, bro, that’s why you’re not a Christian
This was an actual explanation about the shepherds. Saying it's too cold to take care of your animals is a ridiculous statement. Most people say it was too cold but it makes sense hearing about the children taking care of the flock at hight.
It’s funny when people know nothing of animals and try arguments using that. I have midwifed my goats in winter and though many think chickens don’t lay eggs in winter I have a flock of birds that make that a lie. They lay fewer eggs when molting before winter but my chickens lay almost as many eggs in winter as in summer. The production lowers but not by much if they are fed nice fatty grains and get enough calories to support it.
I need to go tell the shepherds in my field that they need to stop shepherding because it’s to cold. I mean it is 15 degrees out. Don’t they know better!
These people think bright colors and good food and sharing joy is pagan. What else is pagan? Enjoying each others company? A bottle of wine? Music? Totally pagan. Traveling to visit loved ones? Pagan. Giving to charity? Pagan. Eating cookies? Pagan. Playing with toys? Pagan. Wearing mittens? Pagan. Enjoying bed time stories? Pagan.
I love Christmas. Where things got goofed up is when martin Luther put Saint Nicholas day from December 6 to Christmas and then st. Nick became Santa Claus. We need to get rid of that fairy tale. Do St. Nicholas on December 6 and Christmas on the 25th. Lets clean it up. Jesus Christ gets eclipsed by a fictional character.
Christmas is in fact pagan. But then again everything in the Catholic church is pagan...God did not reveal the date of his son's birth in the Bible or anywhere else, So I don't know where else the Catholic Church got the information that Jesus was born on the 25/12/.? at midnight... {and of course, the midnight Mass, another Mass}.😴😴😴😴😴😴 When Jesus was born there was sadness in heaven for 33.5 years because the King of the Angels came down to earth to be sacrificed for our sins...Christmas celebrations are not Biblical, if they were, God would've revealed precisely the date and the year of Jesus' birth.
A Protestant told me Christmas is pagan then he said celebrates Christmas but denies he is celebrating a pagan holiday. He said have a blessed Christmas so I asked what pagan god he wants to bless me. It is like he repeats the anti Catholic narrative entirely uncritically
I have replied to one of the comments below and my replies have been deleted. The Catholic Encyclopedia is not from the Vatican or the Church. The commenter claimed that it says that the Church placed the birth of Christ on December 25th to correspond with the winter solstice and the worship of Mithra. He claims that it's in the New Catholic Encyclopedia. I told him that he mustn't obssess over it because that encyclopedia is not from the Catholic Church. It's there to cause confusion and not clairfy. I have replied twice and each time my replies were deleted making cbooth151 appear as having the last word. I also asked if there was anything in the bible that says that we are not supposed to commemorate Christ's death (Lent, Good Friday) because he says that Jesus never instructed the disciples to do so.
The early church greeted each other with Mary when they ran into Mary the mother of God Christ her son and the word mass meaning the first Catholic mass Mary Christ mass...
The Nutter video was also narrated by a guy who sounds exactly like prominent Climate Apocalypse Priest Al Gore. Never a great point in favor of credibility.
“The pagans”… “the JEWS”… maybe it’s time to have a little nuance to other world religions? To say there was no “pagan” influence is silly. A tree for Christmas on the winter solstice… and bunny and eggs on the spring equinox. Then Aquinas uses “pagan” philosophy but that’s not a big deal. Bc non of its a big deal.
Also worth noting: Paganism doesn't have a consistent through line from historical times to modern times. It was revived over the last century or two, and especially the last 50 to 60 years from various historical records. (If this is covered in the video... oops, should have waited to post it.) ... Wow the video that's being fisked is horrible.
34:00 I'm just going to make quick point about untruth , go read about the Hebrew midwives in Exodus and how cool don't do that after they told Pharaoh something that was untrue
Even if you grant their entire premise, who cares? People feasted and exchanged gifts, a thing people have done for all time. Whoopty doo. Then those people converted. Now they feast, exchange gifts, and celebrate Christ. Even with their premise the point if the conversation makes no sense. Before Christ essentially the entire world was pagan, thats why its "revelation"....
I think the Scandinavians custom called boxer day is where American derived many of the same Christmas traditions but put are own slant on it so it might be wise to look at what they believed about about the origins of boxer day.
Yes, but I requires confirmation of the a fixed date and the courses of the priests. The Bible leaves a clue to the conception of John The Baptist. If you can figure that date out, you can know when Christmas should be. Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: 1 Chronicals 24:7-19 list the priestly courses. The courses are repeated every year. 1 Chronicles 24:The first lot fell to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah, 8 the third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim, 9 the fifth to Malkijah, the sixth to Mijamin, 10 the seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah, According to the Babylonian Talmud, the course of Jehoiarib was on duty during the destruction on Solomon's Temple 9th day of AV 587. The course of Jehoiarib was on duty again during The Second Temple destruction on the 9th day of Av(early August) 70 AD. 7 courses later was Abijah(Abia, Abias).The time Zechariah was in the Temple, would correlate right about the time of The Day of Atonement. Late Septemberish. 6 months later would be late March. The traditional date of the Gabriel's Annunciation to Mary is March 25th. The traditional date for John The Baptists birth is 3 months later, June 24th. 6 months later is Dec. 24th/25th
Joe, can you PLEASE tell my husband that it is not stupid to say "E for effort"? I think I heard you say it in the last episode of Catholic Answers where you took questions from Facebook and RU-vid.
It is believed Jesus was born around the Feast of the Tabernacles which is September/October. If we go back nine months from here where are we??? And when DOES life begin??? We need to remember how Jesus came into this world. If we stop celebrating Christmas we could stop reading scriptures associated with Christmas. You cannot take away from God's Word!!!
Thank you brother Joe for yet another astounding video. I pray for God's continuous blessing, protection and guidance upon you and your family. Continue to defend the Catholic faith and teachings. You are doing awesome!!
Hi, Joe. Perhaps you could a show on the nature of lying. I think the CA Focus podcast did an episode about the "are there any Jews here?" question. And some agree that, if in WW2, you had Jews living in your attic and Nazis asked if you had Jews in your house, you could morally say, "no," because the intent with the lie is not to deceive, but to save lives. With the Santa question, I wonder if it's okay to do Santa in the house up until a child is, let's say, 7 (the age of reason)? When I talk with my kids about Santa, I'm not intending to deceive them in the strictest sense. In other words, if the kids asked if we had cookies and I said no because I don't want them to have cookies, that's a deception aimed at benefitting me. Being completely honest, I think the biggest reason we do Santa in our house at the moment is because we don't want our kids to accidentally talk about it at school and make other kids upset and have parents get angry. I would actually prefer for the Santa thing to only be in movies. But I don't feel like I'm sinning when I talk to my kids about Santa because I'm not doing it for a nefarious purpose that benefits me. I will say that my wife and I have agreed that if/when the kids ask point-blank if Santa is real, we will not lie. That hasn't happened yet.
Hey Joe, thank you for this!! I've run into this with some Christian pals. Have you heard of the Hebrew Roots Movement? Or Psalm 119 Ministries? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
It was turned into merry the world wasn't thinking of mary.. it was to prove a point the Catholic church is the true church. Recognizing the Catholic mass in the first century..
I liked this podcast! Very cautiously I watched Kirk Cameron's "Saving Christmas" on prime video, last night. It was interesting and had some common points you shared on the pagan take. I was bracing myself for the Saint Nicholas take, but ultimately I thought it was a fun story telling video why Christmas is all Christian.
It's pretty obvious that the Catholic church consciously set about replacing the pagan holidays in the same way that cathedrals/churches were built over razed or converted holy sites. Easter, Christmas. I'm not sure why people find this so triggering.
Did you watch the video? This has 0% to do with it being "triggering" and 100% to do with it being a false and baseless claim that's been largely discredited.
@shamelesspopery I watched most of it. The notion that there was no midwinter festival prior to Christianity though seems both unnecessary and unlikely. I don't think you would argue that the solstice wasn't celebrated even in the neolithic though so I'm not sure what position you're actually taking.
@@SirSomnolent there were pagan holidays all over the calendar. My point was that we actually have the writings of early Christians about why they believed Jesus was born on December 25th, and they pretty obviously weren't trying to co-opt a pagan holiday. That's a modern myth that misunderstands both paganism and early Christianity. It would be like claiming that President's Day is an American attempt to co-opt St. Valentine's Day. The theory only works if you know little about the holidays or the peoples involved.
The video I'm responding to is more than 20 minutes, so I don't know any way to both give it a fair hearing and respond to it in under 10, without leaving out some important points. But if you need a Cliff notes version: Christmas is not pagan, Saturnalia wasn't on the 25th, Sol Invictus doesn't seem to predate Christmas, and the early Christians calculated December 25 based on biblical evidence and the Jewish, Roman, and Egyptian calendars, rather than anything to do with paganism. For more, see above.
Lies are easily said, but most often take a long time to refute. That is why the "Gish Gallop" (toss out a lot of lies and half truths) is popular, as there's often not enough time during an interview or debate to fully refute all the lies, so the person using the Gish Gallop claims "He only refuted one thing (in this tiny amount of time), so he's wrong!". Also, patience is a virtue.
@@LauraBeeDannonRight? God specifically selects a bunch of Israelite artificers to make the Tabernacle furnishings. Where exactly did they learn their crafts? Duh! Egypt!
