Were the Early Christians Wrong about Predestination? 

I’m meeting with a priest today about pursuing confirmation, please pray for me

Just found this podcast. How have I not heard of it before??

If anyone reads Against Herieses by St Irenaeus he addresses predestination and free will. It's clearly the Catholic view. Before he even spoke on the matter he spoke how nobody can understand the mind of God. I strongly recommend reading it. It's truly incredible

I converted from Calvinism. For 10 years i struggled to understand why a potter would weep for vessels he made for the garbage. Their theology comes first, rules of interpretation 2nd, and scriptural interpretation of problem passages a distant third. The hermeneutic i learned was you interpret the difficult passages in light of the simple ones. The problem is, the theology makes simple passages INTO problem passages. Eventually when you let go of the theological lens youre reading scripture through, then scripture starts to make much much more sense.

No free will is no love is a hollow existence.

Wow! I’m a disappointed Protestant seeking to understand more about historical Christianity. Thanks for your service with this channel. I really appreciate the obvious effort to avoid straw manning and ad hominem. Keep it up! You might convince me.

How do you do, fellow papists?

This topic fits in perfectly with the bible study we are doing at my parish "The Bible and the Early Church Fathers"!

haven't seen the video yet, already know it's a certified banger

Studying in depth how the pre Augustine fathers understood Freewill and predestination and how they understood the scriptures only further convinced me why I could never in good conscience be a Calvinist

Each of Joe’s videos have a comment from someone coming closer to Catholicism, that’s worth noting. I also am going through RCIA and this channel has quickly become an invaluable resource.

I don't see how someone who holds the calvanist position can claim to be Christian. If Calvinism is true then ultimately nothing we do matters, God has already decided our fate. If someone is predestined for hell, how can a calvanist say that person should become Christian? Nothing they can do can change their fate.

If the Calvinists were right, it would mean God hates humans unfairly.

At long last I found a RU-vid that presents questions and answers in one gulp that I want to present to my Protestant family. Points I don’t know how to make with references because it’s hard for me to remember at the tip of my tongue when necessary. This covers complete predestination and good arguments against very well for me , Thank you. I love the last few minutes that beg to question why would someone think they could surpass beginning Christian history and the knowledge of all the forefathers and come up with THE answer of what we all should believe ! For individuals that come up with new denominations and especially to Luther and Calvin… by what authority?

Great podcast! One of the great ironies is that Calvinists believe they are taking a high view of God's sovereignty, while ignoring the fact that a completely sovereign God has the ability to sovereignly choose to relinquish some sovereignty in an act of love. We see this all throughout the Bible. God gives his creatures the ability to choose (free will). God gave man dominion over the Earth as stewards. Jesus spoke in parables of stewards in charge of his master's land while the master was away. My favorite Bible verse against Calvinism, Jeremiah 18:1-10, even shows that God can change ones destined state in response to repentance or doing evil of the creature. If God is outside time, then it seems logical that God could alter what he predestined from the beginning of time in response to the choices people make. I think the limits some put on God often leads to incorrect theology.

Were the early Christian Calvinists No End of video

I’ve been Catholic my entire life. My senior year of high school I was fortunate to have a Catholic apologetics class that really drew me into the faith. During this time I was dating a girl that was Calvinist. She invited me to a dinner with her elders me an 17 year old kid and little did I know when I got there they began hammering me on why I was Catholic and predestination was the topic. It felt wrong that they deceived me in thinking it was a dinner and not an attempt at conversion and thankfully because I was in my apologetics class although we hadn’t touched predestination, I was able to work my way through the conversation. Not to mention my intuition told me this idea is wrong. The idea feels ugly. It always seemed to contradict every message the Bible and our Catholic teaching had taught me. It’s an ugly story to believe Calvin’s idea of predestination. It removes accountability. Why do anything ? If you’re selected to heaven or hell why is the message over and over to chose God. If Calvin was right we would have zero participation in that. This idea of predestination is what sunk me into my Catholic faith even further and I will forever be thankful for that experience as deviant as it was. Calvinist’s idea of predestination is actually a really really dumb idea/ interpretation of scripture and this is what you get when you leave the truth. Every ounce of my being rejects Calvin’s idea of predestination and I m not sure why I get so fired up even to this day thinking about Calvin’s idea of predestination but I think it’s because I have reached such low points in my life and pain from my own self sabotage from my own free will and selfishness that I had a specific moment with God when I was honest with Him and asked him to forgive me in that exact moment my tears of sad turned to joyful laughter and felt Him physically lift my stresses of my sins out of my body and filled my heart with complete love and after that specific moment I had with Him I sat in silence with Him talking with Him in complete balanced peace, fully alive and because I submitted myself my thoughts became cleaner, my words became cleaner and I returned to an innocence in a sense that I missed about life. It changed my life that moment and I’ve had a few of them with Him which I am so thankful for. I reciceve this same joyful feeling amplified when I ask Mary to pray for me where there is this deep feminine love that makes me very emotional even typing about rn that fills my heart with love and I can never deny those moments I know our faith is the truth. I wasn’t the one that filed my heart with love. It was a reminder He is here

Man this is a amaaaaaaazing Thanks for the wonderful content!

So Calvinism makes God out to be a Sadist? Picking angels and others to sin just because?

This content is great!! Start up the membership!

Was feeling kinda based today, was looking for something based to listen to. Thanks for coming in clutch Joe, very cool.

Unbelievable how wrong people can be on some things, while also being incredibly smart. No, God has no foreknowledge, because God has no before and after, He created time, He’s OUTSIDE of time. He knows what you will choose, because He has already seen what you chose. That doesn’t make your will not free, you’re totally free, to God it just all already happened and will happen and is happening.

Really appreciate this video.

Excellent presentation Joe!

Excellent breakdown of the issue

I found this channel a few weeks ago, and I have to say I am really enjoying it (and learning a lot of stuff along the way). I appreciate your careful reasoning. I also appreciate that you cite your sources. I adopted an "if you have no data, you have no opinion" approach to social media last year. You definitely do the work to earn your opinions. Thank you.

52:28 Made me think of a quote from Princess Bride: "Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?" "Yes." "Morons."

This is gonna be a good one 🤙

So glad Joe was on Counsel of Trent so I could listen to his podcast too. Really been delving into Calvinism lately because I have some close friends who are Calvinist.

Joe gets my day ....love CA cast. God bless all.

Subscribed.

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom. 600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness. - Catechism of the Catholic Church

Wow it is heartbreaking to think that some people believe this about Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 😢 God Is Love, He Loved us so much that He Massacred Himself for us while we were all dead in our sin. How do people who believe this put one foot in front of the other? This is a demonic dark belief and it is so insulting to Christ. Thank you so much for your brilliant videos, you are really doing a service to God. Us who aren't blessed with such intelligence and ability to speak with so much charity can still do something, we can pray for these poor souls who have been fed a diabolical lie. God bless you and all come across this amazing channel 🙏

To sin is to act contrary to God's will. But it's impossible to act contrary to God's will. Therefore, sin doesn't exist. But somehow people still deserve Hell.

Man I love when they make that argument. “The early Christians were wrong” lol the arrogance

Thank you, that was a great explaination!

Good work 😃

I'm always amazed by sheer arrogance of the reformers. Luther who thought he knows better what books should and should not belong to the canon than 15 hundred years of Church tradition and Calvin who dared to think church fathers "confused" for not agreeing with his view of predestination.

These videos feel like they shouldn’t be free to watch. They’re so well done and I walk away feeling actually more knowledgeable about a topic rather than just getting a quick hit of confirmation bias.

Thomistic predestination is true.

If Calvinism is right, there is no need to preach the Gospel. Everyone that will go to Heaven will go to Heaven and everyone that will go to Hell will go to Hell. Preaching the Gospel will do nothing.

Great summary @shamelesspopery !! Who else sees James White responding to this..😂

,,,,,To avoid confusion in ones life pray truthfully and the spirit will reveal all you need to know the perfect will of god with great conviction !

I'm going to get into this destiny thing. I'm going to make a bold statement... We are all destined to die one day.

If anyone is willing to answer. I have been diving deep into Church history and the Scriptural basis for the Pope. Which I am leaning to be on board with. My one issue is the historical case past the 4th and 5th century. I find dozens of quotes for the Pope, but then we also get people like Cyprian and John Chrysostom who sound like they are denying Papal Infallibility. The quotes I find lean towards an Orthodox view of the Pope and not a Catholic view. Do we go as far as to the John Chrysostom and others were horribly wrong about the Pope? This is my one hangup on the Pope and Catholicism. Any feedback or help would be greatly appreciated. God Bless

Don’t know if @Shameless Popery actually responds to any comments, but I’d be interested in discussing this with him because there were a lot of caricatures and/or mistakes in this video that don’t do justice to either early modern Reformed *or* Catholic theology.

"And whom he predestinated, them he also called." (Rom. 8:30) "For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

I always thought Calvinism was cruel

Jaroslav Pelikan has an interesting 50+ page treatment of the questions surrounding Augustine on these issues in his first volume of the history of the development of Christian doctrine. Either way, whatever Augustine thought on double predestination, the position was condemned by the regional council of orange in 529 which the pope affirmed.

Calvinists are big mad in these comments.

Idk about this stuff but as to letting go of the glass knowing its subjection to gravity well, I think of the eagle who drops its young hoping it to fly, which it does after it's been scooped up to try again.

How are you my friend? GREAT SHOW as always!!!!!! What I find interesting is your reliance upon the argument from consensus. Examining the structure of your argument from consensus: 1) the reformers believed that p; 2) the fathers did not believe that p, 3) therefore p is false or otherwise novel Consider the cultural and intellectual context of the reformation occurring within the background of the Renaissance the motto of which was Ad Fontes or "to the sources". Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura embody Ad Fontes. So, when you make the claim that the Magisterial Reformers have simply created certain of the propositional content of their doctrinal commitments, I think this criticism is patently unfair. The Reformers were about the business of exegeting the text of scripture independent of an interpretation operating through the prism of an established tradition. Therefore, it is reasonable to suggest that their conclusion would differ sharply with Rome. First regarding Paul, your claim my friend concerning predestination “in one direction” to heaven is ultimately incorrect. Contrast Romans 8:29-30 with the Potters Freedom, Romans 9:19-24, “You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.” The point Paul is making is that, in light of the fact that there is none righteous no not one, Romans 3:10, and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23, that God has chosen some for mercy, others for justice. No one receives injustice. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Romans 9:15 citing Exodus 33:19. God is sovereign. We are not. This is the most hated doctrine of scripture, the Sovereignty of God in salvation. Now as both a Calvinist and a Thomist, which is not unusual amongst the Reformed Scholastics, Calvin and Aquinas are quite close concerning their doctrines of Predestination and, shall I say it, Reprobation. Starting with Aquinas, I’ll focus on the Summa, ST I, q. 23, a1, “Is Man Predestined”. Then I will follow with ST I, q. 23, a5, “Whether the foreknowledge of merits is the cause of predestination?” ST I, q. 23, a1, in pertinent part, “It is fitting that God should predestine men. For all things are subject to His providence… Now if a thing cannot attain to something by the power of its nature, it must be directed thereto by another; thus, an arrow is directed by the archer towards a mark. Hence, properly speaking, a rational creature, capable of eternal life, is led towards it, directed, as it were, by God…. The reason of that direction pre-exists in God…. Hence the type of the aforesaid direction of a rational creature towards the end of life eternal is called predestination. For to destine, is to direct or send. Thus it is clear that predestination, as regards its objects, is a part of providence.” ST I, q. 23, a5, in pertinent part, “……..Thus, it is impossible that the whole of the effect of predestination in general should have any cause as coming from us; because whatsoever is in man disposing him towards salvation, is all included under the effect of predestination; even the preparation for grace. For neither does this happen otherwise than by divine help, according to the prophet Jeremias (Lam 5:21): convert us, O Lord, to Thee, and we shall be converted. Yet predestination has in this way, in regard to its effect, the goodness of God for its reason; towards which the whole effect of predestination is directed as to an end; and from which it proceeds, as from its first moving principle.” Calvin and Thomas appear to be in agreement that man is divinely predestined, which for Thomas signifies the providential ordering all things to their final end. see Respondeo, ST I, q. 23, a1, and that man is not the cause of God’s predestination. Calvin holds divine providence in tension with divine predestination, explaining that Predestination pertains to our determined end whereas providence to the divine ordering of all things irrespective of whether past, present, or future. John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God So, for Calvin, nothing occurs outside of God’s will including election and predestination. This for Calvin of course excludes foreseen faith, i.e. that God looks down the corridors of time and sees who will choose him and elects on that basis. Aquinas also rejects foreseen faith as the basis for election and predestination, see ST I, q. 23, a5, Respondeo, “Wherefore nobody has been so insane as to say that merit is the cause of divine predestination as regards the act of the predestinator…. The Apostle, however, rebuts this opinion where he says (Rom 9:11,12): For when they were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil . . . not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said of her: The elder shall serve the younger.” Regarding reprobation, Thomas in ST I, q. 23, a5, states, “….God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Rom 9:22, 23): What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory and (2 Tim 2:20): But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver; but also of wood and of earth; and some, indeed, unto honor, but some unto dishonor…. Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.” Reprobation for Thomas then is wholly of divine providence, signified wholly by God’s “…will to permit someone to fall into fault and to inflict the penalty of damnation in consequence.” Thus, “Since it has been shown that by the action of God some are guided to their last end with the aid of grace, while others, bereft of that same aid of grace, fall away from their last end; and at the same time all things that are done by God are from eternity foreseen and ordained by His wisdom, as has also been shown, it needs must be that the aforesaid distinction of men has been from eternity ordained of God… But those to whom from eternity He has arranged not to give grace, He is said to have ‘reprobated,’ or ‘hated,’ according to the text: I have loved Jacob, and hated Esau (Malach. i, 2).” SCG, ch. 3 By contrast, Calvin, in his commentary on Romans explains, “Solomon also teaches us that not only was the destruction of the ungodly foreknown, but the ungodly themselves have been created for the specific purpose of perishing (Prov. 16:4).” Romans, 207, 208 Calvin’s explanation appears to be more consonant with Paul’s narrative in Romans 9:24, “…endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction…” In my opinion, Calvin is in complete agreement with Paul on Reprobation whereas Thomas’ view approximates God’s will in Reprobation with mere permission as opposed to a deliberate act, i.e. “prepared”. I find Calvin and Thomas quite close to agreement on the question of predestination however they diverge in their respective views though not to the point of complete opposition on the question of Reprobation.

Is next week gonna be on Romans 9?

Were Calvinism in at least some of the early Christian thinking, it would no doubt have been deemed heretical… shame, in a way, it wasn’t the case… it was way too late even for that 😜

5:10 I may be wrong, but when I read Romans 8:29-30 what I understand is that God foreknew that some people would choose Him, and so he predestined them to be His instruments in His revelation. I don’t think it means that they didn’t have free will.

The protestants say all infants go to heaven. So, they are saved. But later these infants grow up and lose their salvation so that they must "accept Christ". If you cannot lose your salvation, how is it that infants lost it later in life requiring that they get "saved"?

- *triggers my inner John Calvin* - :D

The outgrowths from Calvinism over the past 400 years themselves make the case against Calvinism. Almost no denominations that trace their roots back to Calvinism believe in John Calvin’s major tenets. In fact, they have done a 180 degree reversal on double predestination: instead of a small number of elect who are predestined to be saved while all the rest are predestined to damnation (original Calvinism), most of the modern offshoots of Calvinism now believe in something close to universal salvation. Just stick with the Church Christ founded, not the one invented by Calvin.

I found something very interesting and thought I'd share with you. You do know that Nag Hammadi Scriptures (as we call it) is what the Valentinians used (not all of the Nag Hammadi Scriptures) that Irenaeus writing his book Against Heresies about (and other heretics as well) . It's interesting that the you can find the Nag Hammadi Scriptures ( as we call it) in the Gospel of mani (Manichæans) as well. Nag Hammadi Scriptures: Triestes on the resurrection- "We are chosen for salvation and redemption. Since in the beginning it was determined that we would fall into folly and ignorance, but we entered into the world, but we would enter the understanding of those who know the truth...The truth they guard can not be lost. Not will it be...what is held fast is the All...nothing redeemeds us from the world but we are of the All. We are saved. We have been saved from start to finish. Let us think about it this way. Let us accept it in this way." The Nag Hammadi Scriptures: The Gospel of Philip -the Gospel of Philip is a Valentinian anthology "The rulers thought they did all they did by thier own power and will, but teh Holy Spirit was secretly accomplishing all through them by the Spirit's will" "Evil forces serve the saints, for they have been blinded by the Holy Spirit into thinking they are helping their own people when they really are helping the saints " "It is good to leave the world before one sins. Some have neither the will not the strength to act. Others, even if they have the will, do themselves no good, for they have not acted. And if they do not have the will...righteousness is beyond their grasp, in either way case. It always comes down to the will, not the action. " "In this world slaves serve the free. In heavens kingdom the free will serves the slaves..." "Humans have sex with humans, horses with horses, donkeys with donkeys. Members of a species have sex with members of the same species. So also spirit has intercourse with spirit, word migles with word. Light mingles with light" Sounds exactly like Augustinian-Calvinism. I can give you more quotes from the Nag Hammadi text that are exactly like Augustinian Calvinism. To Augustine from Nebridius Sends Greeting. "Your letters I have great pleasure in keeping as carefully as my own eyes. For they are great, not indeed in length, but in the greatness of the subjects discussed in them, and in the great ability with which the truth in regard to these subjects is demonstrated. They shall bring to my ear the voice of Christ, and the teaching of Plato and of Plotinus." Augustine changed the cause of total depravity to Adam's guilt but kept the Stoic, Manichaean, and Neoplatonic concepts of the human dead will requiring god's infused grace and faith to respond.

Anytime I read or hear quotes from the reformers they sound so prideful and arrogant.

The calvanist idea seems prideful in nature to me... Basically "god has pre-ordained me to go to heaven and I know im one of god's special chosen ones, but you all who dont agree god probably just hates you and is sending you to hell"... hmmm how about a little more self-reflection and humility that you constantly should be working to be more christ like... perseverance isn't comfortable.

Romans 8:24-39 KJV For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The early Christians had confession, they did not believe in this predestination nonsense.

One more point my friend. I think you may be confused on the point of the order of the decrees relative to Calvin. By the way Aquinas holds to the view that the number of the predestined is fixed, see ST I, q. 23, a7, "Whether the number of the predestined is certain" He explains, in the Respondeo, "The number of the predestined is certain. Some have said that it was formally, but not materially certain; as if we were to say that it was certain that a hundred or a thousand would be saved; not however these or those individuals. But this destroys the certainty of predestination; of which we spoke above (A. 6). Therefore we must say that to God the number of the predestined is certain, not only formally, but also materially.....It must, however, be observed that the number of the predestined is said to be certain to God, not by reason of His knowledge, because, that is to say, He knows how many will be saved..... but by reason of His deliberate choice and determination." The comment you made at 11:16-29 , "So you can't lose your salvation but you also can't get saved if you are not. That is the critical idea of this vision of predestination. And again actually none of this is in response to original sin." In Reformed Theology (Calvinism) we distinguish between the order of the decrees, Ordo Salutis, which is to say not a temporal order insofar as God is outside of time but instead the logical order of the decrees. What you are describing is the Supra Lapsarian view, a view that most Calvin scholars, as well as I, believe Calvin did not affirm. However, it was unmistakably held by Theodore Beza for example. Calvin is viewed as an Infra Lapsarian. Then there is the Amyraldian view which is not pertinent to the discussion. The question concerns God's decree to elect or reprobate either prior to the fall, i.e. Lapsus, which is indicative of the Supra (above) Lapsarian view, or after the fall, which is indicative of the Infra (below) Lapsarian view. Calvin and I are Infra Lapsarians. Accordingly, the decrees under the aspect of the Infra Lapsarian (after the fall) view are as follows: 1) Decree to create men in holiness. 2) Decree to permit them to Fall. 3) Decree to Elect some and Reprobate others. 4) Decree to provide Salvation through Jesus Christ for the elect, and condemn the reprobate. Predestination and Election according to the aspect of Infra Lapsarianism is of grace and ultimately mercy insofar as it occurs logically after the fall, viz. Adam's sin. The Supra Lapsarian which is held in the minority is as follows: 1) Decree purposing the revelation of God’s virtues in electing some and reprobating others. 2) Decree to create those men elect and reprobate. 3) Decree to permit them to Fall. 4) Decree to provide Salvation through Jesus Christ for the elect, and condemn the reprobate. The view you expressed is the Supra Lapsarian view wherein predestination, election and reprobation is wholly of the sovereignty of God occurring before the fall which is distinguishable from the Infra Lapsarian view wherein predestination, election are of grace and thus mercy occurring after the fall. The Infra Lapsarian view is the dominant view in Reformed Theology (Calvinism). As always............. Great show keep up the good work. I am a fan! God bless!

Revelation 17:17 KJV 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. Here we see the clearest testimony of Almighty God that His will is done in even those actions which are contrary to His eternal law. For He puts the basest of men in positions of earthly power and controls their very hearts to bring History to its appointed end, all for the praise of His glory. The preaching of the grace of God in bringing many sons to glory, and the damnation of the wicked in hardening their hearts to the Truth, is an absolute certainty. Men who think they are doing their will ( and we definitely have a will ) are unconsciously fulfilling God's purpose in all their words, thoughts, and deeds. For the saints this is all their comfort and peace, but exposes the unconverted sinner, in all his cavil's opposing the truth of the absolute sovereignty of God.

I was predestined to like this video

Romans 9:11-13 KJV (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Fear the Lord, for does he love you or hate you! Do you obey God? Do you have the faith God is looking for? Do you listen to God or man? Do You have any clue who the serpent is? Mark 10:18 KJV And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God... Not Mary, not saints, not popes, not any man!

Amen! I thank God that more people are speaking out against Calvinism. Justin martyr was right determinism is a most impious evil

In what god do you put your trust? A. The God that created us in his likeness, perfect in all ways to the fulfillment of his purposes. A God that has no reason to judge or condemn, for why should he judge that which he has created and condemn it for being as he made it. Or B. The god that man has created in his own likeness; vengeful, jealous, one who settles things with war, violence and eternal punishment for imperfections that he created in us. A god that purports to give you free will but will punish you if you do not exercise it in the exact way that he wants, as if you could actually perform any action that is not God's will (i.e. God's will is that you do your will). A god that has a plan for everything but wants you to pray for him to change that plan, already knowing whether your prayer will be granted or not. This is a question that I have pondered for many years and the answer lies in letting Truth be your authority not letting the authority of a book, institution or person be your truth. As you contemplate this question, remember this quote "God can't tell you his Truth, until you stop telling him yours." -Neale Donald Walsch Conversations with God

I forgot to mention my friend that Aquinas did hold to the predestination of Angels, see ST I, q. 23, a1 reply to the 3rd objection, "Predestination applies to angels, just as it does to men, although they have never been unhappy. For movement does not take its species from the term wherefrom but from the term whereto. Because it matters nothing, in respect of the notion of making white, whether he who is made white was before black, yellow or red. Likewise it matters nothing in respect of the notion of predestination whether one is predestined to life eternal from the state of misery or not. Although it may be said that every conferring of good above that which is due pertains to mercy; as was shown previously (Q. 21, AA. 3, 4)." I'll stop it here but this view is certainly not alien to the church though not entirely consonant with Calvin.

Excellent presentation. However, I have one quibble in defense of Marcus Aurelius. 1. Although Justin Martyr was executed while Aurelius was emperor and Aurelius' Stoic teacher Junius Rusticas was the trial prefect who condemned Justin to death, it is unclear how complicit Aurelius was. 2. Rather, Justin Martyr's First Apology quotes in its entirety a letter Marcus Aurelius wrote to his countrymen in defense of Christians as follows: "The Emperor Caesar Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, Germanicus, Parthicus, Sarmaticus, to the People of Rome, and to the sacred Senate, greeting! I explained my plan to you and what advantages I had gained on the borders of Germany after much labor and suffering. Due to the circumstances of this war, I was surrounded by the enemy in Carnuntum. 74 cohorts cut us off from help, being stationed 9 miles off. Then the scouts pointed out to us that the enemy was at hand. Our general, Pompeianus showed us that a mixed multitude of 977,000 men was closing in on us, which we all could see. I was cut off by this vast host, and I had with me only a battalion composed of the first, tenth, double, and marine legions. I examined my own position and my army, considered the vast mass of the barbarian enemy, and I quickly betook myself to prayer to the gods of my country. They disregarded me. So I summoned those among us who go by the name of Christians. After some inquiry, I determined that there was a great number and vast host of them. When they appeared before me, I raged against them. This was not appropriate, for afterwards I learned their power. They began the battle not by preparing weapons or bugles. Such preparation is hateful to them because of the God they carry around in their conscience. We call them atheists, but it seems that they have a God as their ruling power in their conscience. I say this because they threw themselves on the ground and prayed not only for me, but for the whole army as it stood, so that they might be delivered from the present thirst and famine. For five days we had gotten no water because there was none. We were in the heart of Germany and in the enemy's territory. As soon as they threw themselves on the ground and began praying to God-a God of whom I am ignorant-water poured from heaven. On us it was most refreshing and cool, but upon the enemies of Rome it was a withering hail. We also immediately recognized the presence of a God after their prayer, a God unconquerable and indestructible. Because of this, then, let us pardon such as are Christians, lest they pray for and obtain such a weapon against us! And I counsel that no such person be accused by our courts only on the ground of being a Christian. If anyone is found laying to the charge of a Christian that he is a Christian, I desire that it be made clear that he who is accused is a Christian. If he acknowledges that he is one and is accused of nothing else, then whoever arraigns him should be burned alive. I also desire that whoever is entrusted with the government of the province shall not compel the Christian, who confesses and certifies such a matter, to retract." These things should be confirmed by a decree of the Senate. I command that this my edict be published in the Forum of Trajan in order that it may be read. The prefect Vitrasius Pollio will also see that it is transmitted to all the provinces round about." [A letter (supposed) of the emperor Marcus Aurelius; from the copy enjoined to Justin Martyr's First Apology, as contained in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I; Abridged and updated by Paul Pavao; Christian History Org website /marcus-aurelius-letter.html]

Acts 10:44-48 KJV ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord... And when they heard the gospel they received the promised Holy Ghost (because by faith they believed) Not praying to someone else. Not glorifying someone else. And not eating Gods flesh. Acts 10:42-43 KJV And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. By true faith! And faith brings obedience!

The "elevator to hell" analogy implies that we can "choose" to be lost. No. Our default condition is lost - just as a room is dark by default until somebody turns the light on. Paul deals with this issue in Romans 9. Goc hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to display His [God's] power to His people. "I will have mercy on whom i will have mercy." And on whom He will, He hardeneth. (See Rom. 9:15-19)

Was Adam in the garden free NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit ? Were the men who crucified Christ free NOT to crucify Him ?

Romans 1:17 KJV For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 3:23-25 KJV For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God... Romans 5:1-3 KJV Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3. And... Romans 11:20-21 KJV Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 2 Corinthians 5:6-10 KJV Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I hear your elevator analogy, but I don’t think it’s quite accurate to the holistic argument that Calvin puts out in the Institutes. There is only one elevator, one to heaven, that much every Christian believes in. You say that Calvin argues for a second elevator, one to hell. I would argue that the Institutes (and more importantly the Bible) argue that all men due to original sin have one starting point, spiritual death aka hell. Predestination is God saving us from that unavoidable place. Now He does leave others there, for what reason I don’t know. But to say God sends people to hell is language that doesn’t reflect the actual argument and serves only to predispose people against Calvinism as you begin your argument. God bless you for these videos Joe

Were the early, middle and late Calvinists Christians?

Don't like that you're a pope-splainer but on everything else you're amazing

I don't get it. Why did Jesus preach, why do the apostles teach? If christ died for the elect, then it follows that, that is the only action needed. Everything else is useless. It renders the gospel useless for practical purposes.

Calvinists are woefully illiterate in James Epistle, they'd quit their nonsense if they read the passage about God not tempting anyone and being the source of all good and perfect things. To say he predestines Hell is to say He temps and chooses evil actions to be performed by men for the sake of them going to Hell.

The funniest thing about Protestants is that both kinds try to _prove_ their salvation - Calvinists, because they don't know where they were allegedly predestined, so they try hard to prove their possession of the "irresistible grace", which they do with none other but "good works" - and other "sola fide" types by excessively demonstrating their devotion and happiness, so that their faith is beyond doubt sufficiently fervent - while both demonize Catholics and Orthodox for belief in actual, unearned graces bestowed upon them through the sacraments, which they wilfully accept and obtain, while being constantly accused by both Protestant types of Pelagianism 😅

I don't believe they were. But the nice thing here is that if I'm wrong, I don't have to feel bad about it. After all, that would mean God predestined me to think this way. Oddly, He'll be wrathful over how He made me, and punish me for it, but at least I know it wouldn't be my fault.

Conversly, a semi Pelagian would say we can build an elevator and then go up

Aquinas believed in fate. See prima pars q. 116. Also, he argued that the number of the elect is certain in prima pars q. 23 article 7, and quotes Augustine as saying that the number cannot be either increased or diminished. Aquinas also held to free will and the idea that one could lose his salvation, but also that the elect would be infallibly saved (also q. 23). It would be helpful for you to talk to a Thomist about the differences between the Calvinist system and the Thomist system, because they are actually nearly identical. Most of this video ended up being an argument against Aquinas, accidentally.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls- 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - Rom. 9:6-24 From your opening monologue (re: Smith & Jones), to your assertion that God only predestines in “one direction,” it’s like you hadn’t seen Romans chapter 9. Maybe Calvinism isn’t a stable doctrine, but you can’t fault him in the Institutes for not dealing directly with what Holy Scripture teaches. St. Paul here states, “[God] has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,” that sure sounds like those predestined for damnation…

No you cannot jump out of the elevator once you are truly truly in it. You wouldn’t want to anyway. The ones who SEEMINGLY jump out of the elevator are people who are just saying they are believers but are deceived. No actual regeneration has taken place in their souls/hearts - they are church goers because of habit. They were brought up that way. It’s in their culture so to speak. Like all the people who only go to church at Christmas or Easter. Some are more religious than others. But none of them are actually in that elevator going up - so when the day comes they stop going to church - they are not jumping out of the elevator because they were never really in the elevator ! I was not a true believer when I got married I the church. Neither was my husband but it was part of our western culture to get married in the church because I am Scottish I automatically thought I was a Christian because of my country of birth. I was christened in the Presbyterian church So I assumed I was a Christian. Do you get my point? So although I thought I was in that elevator going up - I really wasn’t. Then one day God broke into my life and softened my heart , regenerated my spirit, convicted me of my sin and of my lost and useless state and gave me the gift of repentance and faith! Then and only then was I put the elevator upwards. I take no personal responsibility for that - God did it all! Notice I use the word PUT! I was PLACED I the elevator by God! I did not choose to walk I- he plucked me from the firey pit I was heading to. I praise him and thank Hi for saving me. I did not deserve to be saved. Now the opposite scenario - which is a given - is that God could have bypassed me and not chosen to make me one of His elect. So I would have lived my life as a sinner under the wrath of God - in the downward elevator and into which every human being is initially born - and God could have left me there. That is the crux of the matter. No the term double presentation is not used the Bible but it is inferred! That is all Calvin was discussing! God Himself said He would have mercy on those He chose to have mercy on. But people cant abide the fact that God is in charge and not us! So argue about it for as long as God gives you breath - it won’t change what God has decreed. Call God all the awful things you all want in the comments - pile up your sin- that is your free choice which you are always on about. K

Okay but the Catholic Church had very similar ideas about predestination and reprobation just 100 years ago… how can it be the true church if it was wrong on this

Don't just stop with Romans 8:29. The discussion about predestingation doesn't kick in until Romans 9. Rom 9:10-25 - And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? That covers the whole subject. Yes, God chooses some to succeed and some to fail. So what? What are we going to do about it? We know why He's doing it so we have all the information we need. NPCs are a thing in God's universe. Ask yourself: Am I a vessel of honor or am I vessel of His wrath? If you're the right kind of person, a question like that should scare the hell out of you. It does me.

Did the early Christians believe in predestination? No they did not! The New Schaffer-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says: “Previous to Augustine [of the fourth and fifth centuries C.E.] there was no serious development in Christianity of a theory of predestination.” Before Augustine, earlier so-called Church Fathers such as Justin, Origen, and Irenaeus “know nothing of unconditional predestination; they teach free will.” (Hastings’ Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics)

If Calvinism were True and we had no free will to think.. to make choices.. then How are we created in God's image ?? We would be reduced to mere pre-programmed robots... If Calvinism was actually true then God is totally and all Alone in this Universe with his cyborgs

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RyvzbnmSSOM.html For me this is the pinnacle of Joe's talk. We were made for Heaven... but we choose to take that road freely. Thank you Joe!

"Calvinism" began with Augustine of Hippo, when he changed the more biblical teaching he taught for 26 years, back to what the Manichaean gnostics taught, and he taught this for the last 15 years of his life. This, NOT the Bible, was Calvin's basis for Calvinist predestination. The Bible has God predestinating specific things, such as the cross, not everything that would ever happen, including who would be saved and who would be lost. Augustine's and Calvin's predestination came through the gnostics, and before that, it was the pagan idea that everything was predestined by the decree of The Fates, 5-7 old women who predestined everything thst would or could ever happen. The Fates had been such a powerful idea that even Zeus, Jupiter or Thor were considered to be subject to the dictates of the Fates. So it is basically a pagan stronghold.

No.

How would Catholics respond to Thomism which teaches predestination to salvation according to the degree of God, not on the grounds of foreseen faith?

Double predestination is Catholic Dogma, not in the Calvinist way tho

Irenaeus was not a rcc.

You need to be more careful, please don't conflate Luther and Calvin, they end up in very different places for different reasons. Talking about both together muddies the waters.

First of all, Calvin was not a fatalist in the way you are trying to paint him. Secondly, Aquinas and Augustine was closer to Calvin on matters of the will, predestination, and justification than the Vatican today. The Vatican has fallen into Bielian pre-modern theology that was a departure from the tradition that the church of Rome was trying to retrieve over the reformers! How ironic it is that the reformers were the ones to accurately retrieve the Fathers over and against the papists!

1Timothy 5:21. Says there were electAngels. The Angels were created perfect but the was potential for sin. God chose some so they would not fall into sin and follow Satan who did choose to sin. The same with Adam & Eve. They were created perfectly but there was the potential for sin. They were given the option/free choice to obey God’s command not to eat from one tree or disobey. They chose to disobey hi command. God did not force them to sin. Adam and Eve were in totally different category to us. We now are born with fallen natures inherited from Adam and our natural default position is to disobey God. Nothing very to understand in all of this. Stop accusing God of being a monster! K

Predestination is not a Christian thing. Jesus healed the ill and asked them to repent. Nothing predestined in that.