Cleat Setup Mistake - leads to HUGE imbalances // Bike Fit Lesson 

Daniel Montgomery yes, absolutely. Being able to see and quantify small imbalances (and small improvements in them) is critical to making headway with fit issues. And I see much more up-side for "regular" cyclists versus pros and elites. 90+% of the riders I see are "normal" and just want to be more comfortable, feel balanced on their bike, and perhaps gain a little efficiency in the process.

InstaBlaster...

+Mac Swanton I know...that's one of the foibles of that system....I did mean that right was in red...just on the graph portion. But then on the 3D display the right ankle path is in blue. Definitely confusing and my bad for not being clearer

+GoustiFruit φ you're exactly right about this. I did a video a while back about shielding the rider from some of the info as you do a bike fit specifically for this reason. In this case I did not tell her much initially...I mostly said that I thought the changes were going to have a good effective on what we needed to see, but without telling her precisely what those changes were. She did know that they were about her feet and we talked briefly about the foot angle. But we didn't go into depth about how the foot angle would change or the asymmetry until we'd tested a second or third time...

Paul Flory I run both types of pedals/cleats. I definitely have more flex/movement in my foot/ankle and pedal stroke with standard spd pedals and the smaller pedal platform! Both shoes are bont so both super stiff, but I can’t do any serious road riding on the spd’s as it trashes my ankles.

Hey +Paul Flory , good questions. I'd love to track power through the pedal stroke at this level of accuracy but it would have to be sync'd with this system in order for it to be truly useful. For example on the exact pedal stroke I happen to be looking at, the power would also need to be sync'd into the system and at the moment that's not available. Additionally, most of the dual-sided pedal-based power measuring systems actually estimate the crank angle rather than having it be a "nard-wired"metric. She's actually an elite mountain biker but like most of them spends a ?lt of training time on the road bike...

@BFA I expressed it poorly. What I meant was to track power output during the session to see how the changes you make affect power output. Wouldn't have to be as detailed as a force curve through the different positions of the pedal stroke, just power output time-synced to the session. As I said this wouldn't be rigorous but it would go beyond fitting by the geometry. I think my fitter was doing this somehow. I can see how she might want to have ONE set of shoes for both types of training to avoid issues from slight differences in cleat position for the different shoes. At 18 she's an elite? She's racing against the senior pros? Impressive!

Paul Flory Oh, okay, got it. So, using power over the course of session *can* be useful but it's a pretty slippery slope. I did a video about this a while back -- namely that power isn't always a useful measure during the course of a bike fit -- for a few reasons. It's difficult to get the rider to pedal at exactly the same perceived level of effort on the before and after tests to see if power has improved....and 5 or 10 watts may be significant and can easily be skewed because the rider may be warmed up more or less on the re-tests, could be just getting familiar with the feel of this particular resistance unit on the stationary trainer, or any number of other things. Not to mention if they know that we're looking at power, it can be even very difficult on a subconscious level to keep that out of the equation -- most riders *want* their fitting to feel or be better and this type of placebo driven effect is really difficult to control for. Which goes back to the idea of shielding the rider from some of the information coming out of the fitting -- I find this to be extremely important and it can be difficult to do this in a responsible and strategic way. Another option would be to test the rider's physiologic response at a given wattage --say 250 watts. This will probably have to go beyond merely tracking heart rate, which would be easy, but is also subject to some of the same issues mentioned before (warmup, motivation etc), but would then mean some more involved (time and equipment-wise) testing. Definitely not saying it's not useful....just that it's difficult to do in a way that controls for enough of the variables.

Agreed. But the point of a fitting is to help the rider develop more power on the bike, no? Simply establishing a geometry that's within "normal" ranges and symmetric may not accomplish that, at least for some people. For various reasons (injury, inherent asymmetry, etc) they may produce more power in a seemingly less than optimal fit A physiologic response could be tested in a way that would not be affected by the rider's psychology, etc.: a lactate step test before and after the fit. Basically what you suggest, holding constant watts at several levels, each for say 7', and then measuring blood lactate. Plotting the results would give watts at the 4mM lactate threshold, which might improve (or decline) depending on fit. Fatigue might affect the results if more than one step test were done in one fitting session FTP is subject to psychology, and HR (a poor substitute when one cannot measure watts) responds slowly and as you say is subject to many other factors. A followup step test a few days later once the rider has "settled into" the fit would be a good idea, because the rider might initially be a bit tentative with the different feel of a new fit?

+ecycled3d yes, I think the pelvis (and its balance) are usually the culprit in this situation. If weight isn't being born thru the feet and pelvis properly then these asymmetries usually follow...

Bike Fit Adviser Thanks for the quick reply. Really loving your channel. Great stuff.

I sit off center, noticeably so to those riding behind me. Lots of saddle pain till I got a Specialized Mimic, but still mechanically crooked and wondering whether changing my cleat position on one side might help.

Sebasstian86 I don't think so... I probably have the same issue as you do, my feet have different sizes so I usually run my longer foot with the cleat farther forward. I would recommend setting your cleat position to where your feet are almost or completely flat at the bottom of the pedal stroke

I do the same thing. When it feels right there is like a 5mm difference. I suspect one foot is bigger and also there could be a length difference between legs or hip imbalance.

jack bing I don't know, in my experience, I find many of the road shoes pretty comfortable these days. Now, I do prefer mountain bike shoes when I know I'm going to have to (or want to) walk around some, so that should be a consideration

glenny oc Yeah, I definitely think here saddle was too high, because she was rotating her hips a lot

Thurston Howell III yes, she is a competitive mountain biker who predominantly use the road bike for training

Depends on the rider and your style of riding. Your forward cleat position is more suited to sprinting while back positions are more suited to endurance.

Stevo Reno hi thanks for the reply but I have also ridden these shoes for several years without issue. I used similar brands and fit before for 6 years no issue. My toes can move easily too. The shoes I use are pretty comfy too and breathable. Maybe something wrong with my foot...

After a certain time in the saddle, my feet start swelling a little bit. At this point, it is important to loosen up the shoe (even if it doesn't feel uncomfortable) so it doesn't reduce blood circulation, otherwise my toes may start aching and feel numb. Socks are an aspect in this To me, it is important to have shoes that are easy to tighten/loosen as needed. Can't say whether or not this is your problem, but may actually be worth looking into.

lol ok bud. just because you were confused doesn't mean everyone else is

Ohh really? why do you think I am confused?

FFS . Its a free video that he went to the trouble to make and post . How many videos have you posted ?

He also hasn't posted a video in 2+ years, so yes, if you want a more active channel look elsewhere. But no need to hate on his existing content

@@Ragnar707 You are absolutely right! I’m an ass. Tough year with crazy mood swings. My apologies.