When you poured it onto your hand and I saw nothing. I thought of tale of "The Emperor's New Clothes", you buy a bottle of invisible chalk, rub it in mentally, and you climb better because you paid $25 for a small bottle. That would have been a great april fools video.
Reminded me of aerogel! Just a little cloudy and slightly tinted in bulk. I have a friend who never chalks and this could sway a lot of those people. I'll probably pick some up. $25 isn't THAT bad for an experiment. I've bought and DIY'd liquid chalk, so I'm always game to FA&FO.
Love the video, can see 3 big areas where this could be good: 1. Base layer - just use it in combination with chalk, so you get benefits of both, optimal performance with chalk and still good layer when it wears off during longer climb. 2. Competition ice climbing - yes, we ice climbers use liquid chalk inside our gloves! That makes it impossible to rechalk during a climb which can be up to 8 minutes. So this might be a good alternative. 3. Sandstone climbing - in the Czech and Saxon sandstone areas, chalk is forbidden in order to not leave a trace and also not damage the rock. If this stays on your hands and does not transfer to rock, this might be a great option compared to not using chalk at all.
@@snadornear the German board along the Elbe valley. Here on the German side it’s Saxon Switzerland, over the boarder is Bohemian Switzerland. I think the general area is Elbe sandstone mountains. I was climbing there today and no chalk does influence the climbing but I will admit the visual impact is greatly reduced
@@snador Well chalk is banned in czech on sandstone in general. There are some areas where it is allowed or tolerated, but vast majority has it banned.
@@mmoss1490 I have! That’s what I usually do actually and I do think it works wonders for people with sweaty hands. But even liquid chalk still needs reapplying from time to time and all, so this could be a good alternative
Silica effect on the respiratory system is very well documented, it’s only safe when applied in a way that won’t reach ur lungs- not sure of this product’s safety in the long term. That said, I’m curious how this would feel if you apply this with slightly moist hands lol
@@Natemitka it would probably work great for deep water soloing, since the water wouldn’t affect it. I wonder if you could waterproof shoes without ruining the rubber texture
Cristalline silicon dioxide causes Silicosis, due to the needle-like shape that can damage lungs if breathed. Particle size also plays a role in how damaging it is. However other types of silicon compounds are quite different, and do not always causes issues. I am not saying that the product is safe, I don't know if they passed any necessary certification to say so, but It could be misleading to directly compare it to cristalline silica.
@@thommey8688 The issue is the body not being able to remove the silica compounds and the resulting issues(chronic tissue distress). Research suggests SDS deposits in the lung can be semi-permanent/long term and also wander off into mediastinal lymph nodes. The only misleading thing here is the bottle saying "non-toxic" when toxicology isn't the only issue. It's like saying "my fist is non-toxic" before punching someone in the face.
I've seen a few comments on safety concerns since this product contains a form of silica, but according to the MSDS of silica silylate, it's fine as long as you don't light it on fire. My bigger concern would be the long term effects of anything besides magnesium carbonate chalk on natural rock. Some companies sell chalk with a rosin additive and some climbers have in the past been certain that they discovered the new perfect climbing moisture absorber with rosin. For the most part, people who swear by rosin tout the same benefits as this product: consistent moisture absorption and grip enhancement without the chalky residue. The problem is, rosin builds up on the rock over time and makes it slick as hell. Not saying that silica silylate will have the same effect, I haven't used it, but studying the long-term effects on routes might be a good idea. Also, FWIW, generic silica silylate is waaay cheaper if you were to get it from makeup suppliers. Generic will run $6 for a 29g package vs $25/8g package for this stuff. Take that with a grain of salt though as I haven't looked into that at all beyond the price.
I think adding a super small amount os super finely ground dry rosin to this would be great it wouldnt be near enough rosin to leave behind like any of it amd would mimic the tack feeling of super dry hands from chalk. Like add less than 1% of the total volume.
@@tylerm124Tiny amounts of rosin still build up is the issue. I reckon mixing it with a small amount of chalk could be an alternative, or using CL as a base layer, I've seen other comments mention that
Chalk get dissolved in the water. Also chalk was examined and it doesn't do damage in our lungs (minor irritation only). I think it's important if you stay hours weekly in that kind of environment. I would say I would prefer to breathe in good old chalk then unknown silica particles
I wouldn't be so sure about long term effect of chalk inhalation. People in mines get a fatal disease from inhaling rock dust called Silicosis. But well that's from silica's dust so perhaps chalk is safer..
I think there's some good information here that could be applied to harder climbing. He says his fingers are moist feeling, a little tacky. I would expect this to help improve friction in certain conditions on slopers and slopey crimps, especially when it's very dry or cold conditions and the rock is feeling glassy. But it would decrease performance on smaller sharp holds where that super dry, hard finger tip is important. Depends on the conditions and the route, and of course, each climber's skin.
@@chazott I feel like anything v9 or above needs a certain level of dryness for most climbers. Although people's skin conditions differ, I was more wondering if this would even be a viable option in general for any climbing v9+ friction wise (though I understand it could have some specific or niche applications).
@@pierremilot8117 I know some V12 climbers who put water on their hands before chalk or instead of chalk. Everybody is different. Too much chalk can cause excess dryness and splits. Carlo Traversi talked about using wet chalk (not liquid chalk) to send a highly friction dependent V16 FA in Yosemite. I'm sure he wouldn't be doing that if it was razor crimps. But yeah, jury is still out on this stuff and how it would fit in the mix, if its safe to use.
I wish you would've tried this on more friction based boulders like some really bad slopers or tiny crimps. Or maybe even just compare on a beastmaker and check if it helps to hold on the 45.
I was thinking it was aerogel too. I once ordered a sample of aerogel based insulation blanket and in the bag it had lots of 'powder', after handling it I had very dry hands and also read it was a serious desicant. I did try it down the wall once and it was ok. It's weird stuff!
There’s still a huge variable in how locked in he is and how recovered he is, muscular, cardiovascular, and neurological recovery all come into play. In other words, it’s not that deep dawg. You’d know if this worked better for you during your warmup.
Silica instantly raises my hackles, silicosis is a big issue in comstruction. Apparently this is a well known product used already in make up and is created to be non lumg damaging but i still think about the sheer abount of chalk on everything and cringe
@@Tyler.8046 - the stuff gets airborne 100% - how do you think it is applied - as shown, you pour into your hands and then you rub it 'in' - in this process 100% some particles get airborne - so on every use you get some into your lung.
@@Syntax1963A So, I did more research on this, and you're just wrong. Not only is this not crystalline silica, it's silica silylate which has published studies showing it's safe in concentrations as high as 25%. Additionally, these studies were largely conducted for use in cosmetics which are applied directly to the face. So, not only would I expect this use case to be safe, it's arguably safer than its typical use case. Anyone arguing that silicosis is a serious concern with this product is almost certainly fear mongering because it's a new and unknown product.
maybe a good option for people that dont like to use chalk, or because the skin goes too dry, but really dont think is something that will replace normal chalk in any way.
Would like to think about the long term use of this on real rock, especially sandstone and slate, would you think a build up on the holds would be an issue? also the use of brushing with this / the overall performance of an outdoor hold of this pre/post rain and wind.
So I just had a gym session yesterday and tried both, I still found myself having to chalk up a decent amount, because the chalk still will wipe away from the climbing holds. But that said I was sweating a fair bit because I was doing higher volume with lower rests and I didn't notice my hands sweating that much. It was pretty similar to what I experienced from my first test in the video!
Great idea. I haven't really noticed much of a difference between using this with wooden holds like on my hangboard and plastic like you'd find in a gym. But I'll be sure to give this a try!
Ya i as thinking this really needs to be tested on crimps and slopers over juggy holds and could get a better comparison testing on hangboards for this.
Nah, if its enough to act as an ablatiolve layer you are over chalked, magnesium carbonate is commonly used as a lubricant so excessive chalking is worse than non at all and why we brush holds.
you should try this but with real skin tests like a timed sloper, timed hangboard and other things like that, i think the giant ball would be a great test as well
That looks like an Aerogel of some kind. Reasonable chance your hands are completely waterproof after application. there's an action lab video of a guy in a pool coated in an aerogel
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It might be also a gamechanger in fragile areas where ethics does not allow chalk (eg. some sandstones in Czechia and a few adjacent sectors in Poland)
If its oleophillic then itll definitely rub off on the holds as you climb. All the oils and skin cells of other climbers that coat the holds will definitely cause the silica to bond/dissolve onto the hold.
DO NOT USE THIS INDOORS. Silicosis is a big problem. Do not use this indoors. This goes for any chalks with silicon based drying agents. At the climbing gym I manage and route set at, this very much not allowed to be used
News flash any small particle can cause silicosis Your car realeses a whole bottle of this stuff every time you start it up and then your AC spews thousands of HEPA particles all over you killing your indoor plants and giving your pets cancers Sorry but if you are worried about things that can kill you don't look into the amount of pesticides in our water that cannot be boiled out and how we treat our water with bleach
Careful spouting nonsense. Amorphous silica gel is not harmful to lungs like crystalline silica dust.... it is just really expensive. There are lots of hydrophobic coatings, but chalk is the cheapest. This product is nonsense. I wish them well with marketing...
I hope you realize that silicosis is just one type of pneumoconiosis, you can develop pneumoconiosis from inhaling chalk dust as well, on a consistent basis. Limestone miners get this sometimes (sometimes called calcicosis, from calcium carbonate in limestone, or calcite) any mineral dust is bad for your lungs long term.
Nice video, will probably get my (unusually sweaty) hands on some when it's available in my area. Would have liked to have seen you doing multiple attempts on a slab with tiny holds so see how it stood up to that
Slightly skeptical about the silica part. It's deemed safe in most applications due to not being aerosolized. But this seems to be much easier to become airborne which could raise issues when being used by multiple people in a climbing gym. Excited to see something this game-changing come to the sport though!
Silica is really bad for lungs if inhaled… And I wonder what would happen to the holds if everybody used this stuff? And what about the safety of the dust puffing up off the floor and being inhaled two or three times a week after a year of its use by the majority visiting the gym? For example, Australia has banned the use of man-made ‘stone’ kitchen surfaces. Not because of the danger of manufacture (which is dangerous, but done in controlled spaces), but because of the long term exposure to the silica dust in the middle-man environment. There, it’s cut to size for each kitchen (and note: the advice is to use ppe to cut this stuff and it’s those who neglect to do that who are getting lung disease; hence it’s use being completely banned by Australia as they don’t believe it can be controlled outside of a factory). Many other countries have specific strong regulation about the containment of silica based dust (US, U.K., Canada, EU, Australia). So, is this silica stuff so different we don’t need to worry? Note, there was no legislation anywhere about cutting man-made stone kitchen surfaces until enough lives had been ruined that something was done. Sorry to be such a downer: but if it’s safe in this environment, presumably the manufacturers has published the tests IN THIS ENVIRONMENT that show it’s not like other dusty silica environments and thus safe to puff up off the mats after a year or two and be inhaled (as a result of, for example, most choosing to use it and it just getting everywhere as that almost invisible form it arrives in). Finally, much will be made of there being ‘no dust’ as, “it’s all rubbed onto the hands…”. Well, yea, right, that’s going to happen… You can barely see it and some people will not rub it in correctly and others will accidentally drop some etc, etc…
@@thelelanatorlol3978 It dissolves in water and can be cleared by the body. It has been studied and approved for gyms. The problem with silica is that it doesn't dissolve and this product has not been studied. No one is even sure exactly what it's formulation is!
Thanks for biting the bullet for us 😂. I think there's may be a mechanical aspect to regular climbing chalk. There's definitely a psychological component
I feel like this would be great if you paired it with chalk. You could put it on first and then put chalk on and it would help prevent the actual chalk from coming off as much as normal
Nice video. The only other aspect I would have liked to see is before you washed it off you could have tried using chalk while this was still on your hands. May have to test this out
Thanks! I have another video I'm working on where I test just this! The long story short is that I don't notice as big of a difference with Chalkless + Chalk as I do with just Chalkless or just Chalk.
Rats that inhaled treated fumed silica dust for up to 4 weeks were observed to have crusty eyes, muzzle, and nose; closed eyes; irregular breathing; irritable disposition; lacrimation and salivation; scabs; and red and yellow/brown stained fur. The inhalation LOAEL was 31 mg/m3 for 2 weeks. Aerosolized silica dimethyl silylate caused mortality at 209 mg/m3 and respiratory distress at lower doses. There was a dosedependent reduction in weight gain, reduction in feed consumption, increase in lung weight, decrease in relative liver weights, and decrease in absolute kidney weights. There was an increase in red blood cell counts, packed cell volume, and hemoglobin.
It's hard to tell with these studies what the relevant air quantity is though. Say you have 200 climbers a day using 1g, you replace the air in the gym 2x a day, 100g is airbourne at any given time. A gym is say 200m2 and 4m tall (a very small gym), we assume even spread because it's very light. That would put the dose around 0.1g/m3 which makes the study you mention (can you provide the ref?) very relevant. I would imagine there's 5-10x more magnesium chalk in gyms already which also can't be good for people
If people use 0.2g as per the instructions and you have say 4 air changes a day, your dose goes down to 10mg/m3, still in the relevant range. It then depends how much actually comes off your hands as you climb vs when you wash your hands
Very thoughtful review, thanks! I am very curious whether it would play well with chalk before or after. I already use a liquid base coat and top off with a chalk sock. I wonder if this would behave similarly, but require much less topping up.
I know a few shotputters who use an absurd amount of chalk like 2-3 bricks per session, I'd be really interested to try for shotput specifically for putting on my neck.
Maybe combining it is the way to go. apply a base layer in the beginning of the session and then keep using regular chalk (but less thereof) throughout :D
this seems like aerogel....I just finished a project where I used a ton of aerogel pellets and even though man this is like chalk but makes my hands even stickier. Silica Gel should definitely not be breathed in. It's totally safe on your hands, but if you are clapping your hands and create a cloud or drop the bottle it's really bad for your lungs. Not sure if this is truly non toxic. It's similar to Asbestos, asbestos could be considered non toxic if you don't breath it in. It doesn't hurt you at all to hold or handle, but is dangerous for your lungs.
I know! I tried it a bit in the gym two days ago and I still found myself chalking up a decent amount even with the Chalkless underneath. But I probably chalked up less than if I was just using chalk!
My friend let me try his sample. I thought it was pretty nice on a moon board session. I think I used more then recommended and may be a nice test for you to see if it feels better. I did apply another layer of real chalk about halfway through my session and felt good for much longer than expected.
I usually cimb without chalk and it's not so bad (unless the boulder is extremely hard/sweaty). There's so much chalk on the routes that your hands are quickly covered anyway. See after your first route your hands are already quite covered. So I think you could have rubbed your hands with air it would still be not so bad.
@@Natemitka Thanks! Looking forward to learning more. I heard some liquid chalk brands have been using resin, which leaves residue that fills in the texture :'(
If a small amount of super fine ground rosin was added to it would probably be better for climbing and you could add probably nearly none to it just to sort of mimic the tackyness of super dry hands from chalk.
when you talk about chalk it feels like you are talking about drugs "i've wanted to chalk up all day" "if i don't chalk up before i go it feels weird" blud is a chalk addict
I have two questions: 1) It seems very chemical, how safe do you think it is? Can it causes skin cancer, hormones disturbance etc? What was the safety protocol and is there enough study? 2) Can you combine it with chalk / liquid chalk? That seems like the most interesting use case for me. That way you don't need to always chalk up on easy boulders when warming up and always have an OK grip even when chalk is gone and can't chalk up again.
I’m genuinely curious about this product because, as a climber who sweats near 0% of my hands, I use chalk to prevent my skin from being used too quick. So my question is: did you feel like you used much more skin than usually? and was the feeling more painful when slipping off some ruggish holds?
This is really neat! I definitely want to try it for working out. A couple of questions. 1. How would it work mixing the 2? Not to be a jerk, but i feel like you kinda did mix them with the amount of residual on the wall. (Not hating just observing) 2. How did it feel last run compared to first run of just the "chalkless"? Thanks for the video!
I really though it would wear out kinda fast while bouldering. In my mind if you are loosing some skin, the chalkless stuff should be gone from that area aswell. Since you tested it for quite some time and also fell, this doesn't seem to be the case. Would love to see a test in which you "slip of" of some slopers though to really see what happens
This reminds me a lot of "colloidal silicon dioxide" powder. You can buy it for indigestion, should probably be cheaper, and I'm curious how it compares to that chalkless stuff
It would be interesting to se how this performs on a long lead route outdoors with rock that has been baking in the sun all day. If it can keep you dry then I would be majorly impressed and truly be called an innovation
Rhino skin products can already do this (antihydral). But they can have adverse affects on the skin, that varies with each climber. This stuff may have adverse affects on the rock, I'd really like to know the long term effects before people start using it all over the place.
How is it on dual-texture holds? It is well known that non-chalked hands can have an advantage at these. Perhaps this is a good mix between dry hands for normal holds and not too dry for smooth holds? And it would be nice to see how it affects the holds long-term, does it spread to the holds such that they get (a bit) water-resistent? Will it be a problem for cleaning them?
Did you try it with chalk? Using chalkless as a base and then only minimal chalk throughout the session. Chalkless would go hard in DWS, no more soggy chalk bags!
What residue does it leave behind? Many liquid chalks contains resins/gums that build up outside on the rock and can turn natural holds into glass. It can't be easily brushed away unlike traditional chalk and thus should not be used outside.
You could have made this a bit more scientific by 1. Including more participants 2. Getting them to try each climb multiple times and swapping each time (to reduce the impact of learned efficiency per climb). Obviously the absolute best scientific method, double-blind, is not really possible here since everyone can see the difference on their hand so it's not viable here.
Yeah right!? I tried it two days ago with chalkless AND chalk and I found it worked just OK, it wasn't a magical breakthrough. I noticed chalk kept sliding off of my hands and I had to re-chalk more than I would expect with the double up.
The claim that it doesn't need to be reapplied is certainly false. Skin wears off during climbing, this stuff would go with it. But it may delay the application frequency and work well in certain applications. I'm curious but cautious about using it until I understand what the risks are to human health and the rock.
I also question the health aspects, but would be great to have an alternative for outdoor climbing as I'm really not a fan of seeing natural boulders defaced by climbing chalk.
What I am really interested in is how much chalk I use on average per session, and whether this is more cost effective to use for the average session if you only have to apply once and get roughly similar results. Another thing I thought about was how since you arent using a ton of chalk this way, you'll likely not have to brush off boulders as often while projecting.
What if you mix? Apply the Chalkless, and then re-chalk (with the normal chalk) before every bolder? Does the Chalkless remain staying on your hands? Does the grip become better than just with Chalkless? Or, maybe, even than just with the normal high quality chalk? And the second question is just about the same, but about combining the Chalkless with liquid chalk. And the last question is kinda dumb, but you couldve guessed it: what if we combine all three? For example, some world class climbers do combine liquid chalk and normal one, and I do this as well from time to time, and it does have its benefits over just the normal chalk, imo. Mainly, its the longjevity (you've mentioned about this problem of a usual chalk in this video btw).
I wonder if there should be a concern with leaving a residue of this stuff on rock outside and how that might affect the rock texture over time. Environmental impact should be considered with a new product like this.
I wonder how it would feel on Wood holds, I feel like those are a better measurement of more perfect rounded edges and way more reliant on skin friction
Seems like a nice stuff to have and try out. Could you try to climb the same routes with this new stuff and then with climbing chalk? so like, 4 or 5 differents grades, not at limit so you don'T exhaust to much, and then the same 4 or five with normal chalk? I would be interested about how the difference is. Thx for the investement and presenting this stuff.
I am thinking what is the effect on the rock quality on outdoor climbing. I mean on some of the rock types it is not allowed (or ethically not allowed) to use chalk. E.g. on Andesite the chalk is closing the small channels inside the rock and that make it more greasy/slippery. It might happen with other rock type with the usage of this new "chalkless" product.
Unless you clean every hold before starting your hands are chalked after the first couple of holds. Not like you would get with the bag but still covered where you touched the holds. I’m not sure your test is valid. Using the chalk less as a base layer might be a good idea.
The algorithm sent this to me because I climb. But I don’t use chalk. lol It always makes my hands slick. My hands are very dry and rough. Unsure if that is relevant to why. I keep a towel with me to clean off chalk from hands and holds.
I know the comments are all about this (I will presume this video is not made for intentional controversy), but I do wonder about health, environmental and hold quality effects long-term.
Have you since tried chalk over chalkless? I would love to know if that makes the chalk last longer/reduces the change as you go through a route without re-chalking
how about combining both ? I have really sweaty palms and need to use excessive ammount of chalk, but if this chakless keeps hands drier, maybe it could lead to using very little amunt of chalk, for that extra dryness feeling
I’m skeptical because it leaves a coating. One person using it is fine, everyone in the gym? There’s a reason liquid chalk with rosin is banned in most gyms.
Ignoring the performance at all in this particular argument, but is it really more expensive? I mean per use? Yes. But compared to normal chalk, that you would apply before every boulder, this new stuff only needs one use (if actually delivering as promised) for a session. So the amount per boulder should be even less than regular chalk or am I missing something?
Yeah I could see that being the case…but I noticed a performance difference. Even if chalk works slightly better, I feel like this could be a good substitute for the climbing gym
@@Natemitka Yup, i feel the same! I don't think the super competitive climbers would switch over, but for the normies like me and many others this might be worth a try..thanks for the video! 😊
Its basicaly pyrogenic silica, we use it in GRP industry. I also tought about “chalking” with it but boy, that dust is nasty, much worse than chalk dust
How does it behave when building up on a hold. If an entire gym of climbers used it on a hold would we be able to brush off any build up like with chalk? Would we even need to?
I´m only wondering : usually, I climb for long sessions like 3 hours, and my skin is just shredded. If I understood well the description of the product, the "barrier" shouldn´t be active if the skin it´s on is gone right ? I´m sorry and not asking you to go that far tho 😂 Thanks !
I carry my chalk bag with me on the wall. I don't chalk up and then climb while leaving my bag on the ground. The routes are too long to not carry it with you. Plus, my hands sweat a lot
