Collection of witnesses and testimonies in the disappearance case of Kris and Lisanne 

Feliciano is the first suspect,I Guess!!He came to guide the girls, without their autorization,to not seem suspecious...

Savage animals exist in the wilderness,but should had been adviced!!

Really Bad people are in any place,so we women ,should not trust men we don't really know...

Mothers' Heart never Will be betrayed.They knew something very Bad had happened to these Nice, Beautiful,and kind women...

God relieve their parents...

so, why stupid tourists go there, if so bad

@@jelenat.3507 because it's cheap

We know what happened … it’s that tour guide & his son w/ friends.

I believe it was Feliciano the tour guide too. My intuition never lies to me.@@SimpleLifeAlways81

...there might come a time, where someone in L.E. who knows what happened, coming forward revealing the truth about the intentional sloppy "work", but only to save his own a55, once this very person becomes so old that he wants to leave without any sins - "clearing his soul". They (strongly) believe in a paradox form of "christianity"... But that message will for sure get treated very discreetly...

Panama its not Disneyland ❗

@@lindalin3586 Europe neither - Disneyland is fiction. *This* is reality. Poor argument in a comment section whose topic is about humanity and morals.

Nada de ablar mucho cm dicen los mexicanos lss levantaron esas pandillas 😢

Dios ara justicia 😢😢

Lo mismo digo..a mi también me pasa.

Same for me. Since 2019.

I see no evidence of long shadows in the entire photo 505 consistent with a time of after 3pm, and the time of the photo certainly was nowhere near as late as 4pm. In photo 508, Kris is on a large boulder and that is why her shadow looks longish. If you look at the whole uncropped photo 508, there are three other large boulders In the middle of the stream and the closest in to the camera has a sharp slightly overhanging edge with aa short shadow from it that gives an excellent indication that this photo was taken at about two pm.

Finally, someone who actually pays attention to the details of these photos. Completely tampered with. Mostly photoshopped.

All photoshopped … stupid man Feliciano

A time of 15:00 would already suggest a shadow length of 1:1, as the angle should be near 45 degrees. This just wasn't the case and the sun angle much more resembles the timestamp of 13:54, about 30 degrees.

Qq desgracia dónde está el culpable

Wrong. There is no evidence

Well some of us know better! @@markusmaier2277

Of course, there's no evidence that's why the commenter said intuition. I also think that his behavior was strange, at the least. I mean, the girls didn't show up for the tour, and he got so worried that went to the school to look for them, and then to their house where he spent 30 ! minutes without any supervision. How come if he was so worried the police weren't notified until later that evening? Isn't it strange? Also, the review about this man was creepy beyond belief. Threatening his female customer to chop off her legs, really?? Even as a joke? Sorry that man was certainly supposed to be looked into , it's a shame that corrupted or unprofessional police did exactly what was expected of them.

@@iram5192 Yes , Feliciano did it .

Feliciano Gonzales is a predator and psychopathic. He’s very dangerous and definately involved. Personally, I believe Osman Valenzuales account of events. Osman was found dead on the 4th of April 2014. Officially he drowned. He was just 22.

To be fair to P, I think "what could happen to two attractive white girls hiking alone in Central America?" would elicit a smirk from anyone. We all know what could happen.

I leant towards that scenario as well. But then we have the issue of their mobile phones, which never reconnected to the mobile network. (According to Betziada Pitti and the NFI who investigated those phones). And they should do that if Kris and Lisanne returned to the trailhead that April1st. They may have been kidnapped, but taken beyond the summit. But that does not explain the various witness sightings of them in the later afternoon near the trailhead!

Yes, there were many hikers on that sunny day in the trail BUT without Kris and Lisanne. Why ? These girls have never been there ❌❌

He and Juan anlyazed the same camera model I think they said something about how it is possible to delete permanently but you need to do it in order and it’s something they probably wouldn’t even do when their lost, I mean like why not record a goodbye message?

@@GalacticExplorer83 that has been discussed widely on RU-vid, Reddit and other forums. Personally I'm almost sure there was faul play. But still, if they did get lost, I suppose after a couple of days in the jungle without food or clean water you would probably not be able to think straight. This idea would support the insane amount of useless "night photos". If they really were alive and lost at that point, they probably were on a very bad physical and mental condition.

@@ergitab1123 I believe foul play was too and if they were lost your right by that time they lost their minds

@@ergitab1123 , "I suppose after a couple of days in the jungle without food or clean water you would probably not be able to think straight". With an individual, such considerations. or them committing suicide by faking an accidental; death would be a real possibility to probability. But there being two of them, their remains' condition, and who found their remains makes it all too obvious what the default assumption ought to be and would be for 99% of people of Reddit ECT. If there was a penalty for being wrong. Nothing is at stake so it is just an intellectual game; that explains 95% of the doubters. Van Der Groot insistence that t is not possible to be lost from the trail, certainly not for 11 days, in the area makes it puzzling the semi official Panamanian verdict that they both suffered accidents is accepted by Van Der Groot and other Dutch people .

​@@seancidy6008 This post is borderline retarded. What on earth are you trying to say?

Because they are dead at that time....F. or / and son thit it...,so terrible and al the People now it! F. IS THE BEST LIAR IN THE WOLD

I don't think that an abductor in Panama would have the intuition to make fake 911 calls as soon as he had abducted them. I also find it hard to believe that an abductor in this tiny town of Panama would know the Dutch emergency services number? I think the abductor knew the route well enough that he knew the girls wouldn't have signal so wasn't worried. I believe the girls made those (at least initial) 911 calls. This is also consistent with them turning off their phones because if you knew you were in a dangerous situation you would be inclined to retain your phone battery for as long as possible until you could eventually make a 911 call.

I came across a podcast a few days ago of a Venezuelan journalist who went to Boquete and spoke with some people involved. The mother of one of the men who were seen with the girls and died soon after said the girls had been brutally murdered by members of the gang and everything else, from the pictures to the bones, were planted by them to make it seem like they got lost in the jungle and perished as a result. The woman’s testimony seemed credible enough and she wanted to give this information to authorities but was scared for her family. They were being threatened and, given the murders of the men that could have placed the gang with the girls, it’s understandable.

That is indeed a big problem in this case. Not only did Kris and Lisanne seemingly never adjusted the time on their digital camera to local Panamanian time (leaving a 6 hour time difference), but multiple witness statements that were made very early on in the disappearance seem to match the unaltered photo times, and not the altered ones. However, the angle of the sun in those photos seems to point to the altered times... and then the witnesses all seem off in their statements about when exactly they believe to have seen Kris and Lisanne pass. It is easy for people to drag up statistics about witness statements in general more often being off than correct. But we're dealing with quite a few witness statements here from people living or working along the Pianista trail, which must all be incorrect according to law enforcers. Quite bizarre. And then we have one witness who has declared that tour guide F. threatened her about her witness statement. If that is true, who else could he have threatened or manipulated?

I agree, there are some overlaps in these stories, but also some differences. It is totally unclear when Kris and Lisanne met these local guys. Was it in Sunday already in town? Was it during a party? Was it at one of the Sabroson restaurants? Was it when Henry and his dad came round Spanish by the River, looking for clients? Did they go to a local discotheque? Or were they partying with the locals in one of the sheds in the middle of nowhere on Monday night, as Martin Ferrara O'Donnell claims? Or were they at Cuervo's house and if so, which night? I do believe there is smoke and fire surrounding these local lads, but the precise details of what happened remain vague. But I also believe that Osman may have told his mother the general gist of what was going on, but not necessarily all the (correct) details. I think he may have been more involved than he told her, or at least more present during nefarious occurrences than he wanted her to know.

@@scarletr.7753 Yes, the Lost in Panama podcast introduced us to a delightful Spanish phrase: "Si el rio suena es porque piedras trae" - "If the river makes noise, it's because it has rocks". So many local people are talking about this pandilla, even if their stories don't match I still believe there is some truth to be found there. The girls met with them, of that I have no doubt. Kris and Lisanne only arrived in Boquete on March 29. We assume they had no prior relationship with the pandilla. There's only 3 days to meet them: 29-30-31. The earliest sighting seems to be in the discoteque March 30. We know Lisanne was feeling anxious and/or sick. I think it follows that they would buy marijuana to make Lisanne calm down. Some people object to the girls buying marijuana, because "they would never do that". How do we know what they would and wouldn't do, we can't project our own morality onto them. They're from the Netherlands, marijuana is decriminalised there, tourists get it from coffee-shops all the time. Now they're tourists, I can totally believe they would buy marijuana to calm down. Treating the girls like saints-on-Earth is not going to help the case. Some people object that the girls never wrote about the pandilla in their diaries, but they did write about the Dutch boys in Bocas del Toro. That does give me pause, but maybe they knew the pandilla were shady, maybe they censored it because it was based on buying marijuana and even if they were okay with it themselves, they wouldn't want their parents ever reading it. I think we still filter our thoughts even in our diaries, because in the back of our minds we think someone might read it one day. Kris and Lisanne both had boyfriends didn't they? Maybe they censored it in case their boyfriends ever read it. Maybe there had been an argument about it. Margarita Valenzuela provides one detail which is a red flag for me: she says they sawed Lisanne's feet off with a hacksaw. But we know from the forensics that Lisanne's remains showed no human interference. The foot wasn't sawed-off, as far as we know from the experts. Margarita must know that Lisanne's severed foot was found, and it sounds like she's inventing this detail to make her story fit the known remains. But what would Margarita's motive be to lie? Well, I think it's possible that the pandilla did kill Osman, maybe for some other reason - they are a pandilla after all. Margarita knows that no one particularly cares about Osman, and she has lost hope of getting justice. So she thinks maybe if the pandilla killed Kris & Lisanne, who people do care about, then she can get revenge on the people who killed her son. Osman is her main motive to speak, not Kris & Lisanne. Margarita's story also requires us to believe that Edwin went into the jungle a week later and spent three hours in the rain taking cryptic photos to fool investigators into believing the girls got lost. This is a Panamanian drug-dealer, not a James Bond villain. I can't believe the pandilla would bother with such an elaborate cover-up. And that would mean photo 580 is actually a picture of Kris's severed head. That could explain why it's so deliberately focussed on just her hair, why we can't see her shoulders and why it's not her face. Maybe that's why her hair is so clean, because Edwin washed it for the photo? This is gruesome, but the whole thing is gruesome. I also note that up until this party at Cesar's house, it seems like the pandilla aren't necessarily bad guys, right? There's claims about Tito being violent, but nothing on the others. They just wanted to party, which possibly they had done before with the girls, with no problem. The party went on for a couple of hours, and things only went wrong when Tito made sexual advances on Kris. She rejected him, so he beat her to death. Just like that? And when Lisanne intervened, he beat her with a hammer? So where were Edwin, Jose and Cesar during this initial attack? Did they just watch? Then all three decide "well, Tito's killing them, we might as well all rape them first". They just came to party. They've done it before with these girls. Then all of a sudden, their friend is bashing the girls to death. One minute you're playing a guitar, the next minute you're dismembering a body because your friend is a psycho. It's so abrupt, they must have been mad with Tito. Particularly Jose, he sounds like the one who had the most problem with it.

Which guide Plinio or promacier Plinio ?

The guide

We don't know... Either he saw Kris and Lisanne but did not pay good attention to their clothing. Or he mistook them for someone else. I do find it strange that none of the witnesses mentioned Kris striking red and white striped shirt though... Wouldn't you at least remember such a piece of clothing. combined with her red hair?

plinio was the other guide right??

@@juliannfloress3490 Siii

He is involved 100%

There was a Holmes book about Scarlet? Our Scarlet? (just kidding 😉 😝).

@@lyndoncmp5751 The Conversation has an article with about Karl Friston's free energy, theory and how the putative principle is based on assuming a state of affairs which makes occurrences least surprising. You need to read it but the example given is you see two people throwing a ball back and forth to one another and the ball is passing behind a tree it would be surprising if someone unseen behind the tree is catching the ball them throwing it. The trajectory of two people at their physical and mental peak being transformed into a few handfuls of bones suggest there was someone ' behind the tree'. An accident would be much more surprising.

He changed his statements a lot. One moment he is suspicious of foul play, the next he tells journalists that Kris and Lisanne must have fallen off a monkey bridge or got lost. He has been confusing the investigation actively and constantly appeared in various media, stirring the pot and confusing the narrative.

It was the Dutch female owner of Spanish by the River who had confirmed to Kris and Lisanne that she had arranged the volunteer work for them, and for it to start that Monday. Turned out to be.... incorrect. Lies? What went wrong here? We don't know, nobody has ever asked her straight up, it seems. I wrote about the case in great detail here: koudekaas.blogspot.com/

Dejen esas niñas descansar

Wasn't that video taken April 8th? The night of the photo of the back of Kris' head..

@@brucegough No, the hair photo was taken in the early hours of the 8th. The videoed walk with Kris's parents was months afterwards. But there is an interview of F that was filmed on around the 8th, he looks tired to me, as if he has not been getting a lot of sleep. In first of the recent major series of podcasts on the case by MSNBC's Mariana Atencio and the Daily Beast's Jeremy Ktyt (who went to Panama and reinvestigated the case earlier this year) witness 7:40 Martine revealed that F threatened her on the 3rd to not talk about what she had seen.

A switch off between attempted calls a hour of so apart would make sense for a scenario in which KK and LS were making those calls. But (three hours after photo 508) at 5pm is the first indication on their devices that something was seriously wrong, yet both their phones each made only one try at a call inside the no signal zone, an emergency number attempt, that day. It was still daylight so the common sense thing for anyone would be, just as you suggest, to move on to another location where the signal might be better and try another call. But what actually happened is on that day on the hike after each one's phone failed to get through to with an attempt at an emergency number call there were no retries. An hour later, at 6pm, which was around nightfall, both the phones were switched off and left off for 14 hours. Did they sleep in? There was another 14 hour gap between any phone activity the second night, when there was a 22 hour gap between call attempts, which ended permanently on that day (3rd). "[W]hy would kidnappers call 911?" Because the perps knew from the begining that the calls could not get through from that area, and the true purpose was to leave a record in the phone (to later be left to be found be the authorities) in order to make it look like the girls had got lost and could not summon help because they had no signal. There were a total of three calls all failed emergency number calls from each phone between 5 pm on the the 1st, which was day of the hike and the 3rd and never were there any immediate retries. The whole thing was thought out from the begining, which is a big part of the reason they have cheated justice. There were no calls on Kris phone on the 4th even though it was powered up and the wrong PIN on it did not start being entered until the 5th. They could have yelled and been found. Of course the naysayer will fall back on the idea that KK and LS lost their minds, so no conclusion can be drawn from their inexplicable behavior as seems to be shown by the devices and them not screaming their lungs out for week in the daytime when people work in that 5 miles of forest. The signal check on Kris's phone being at 13:37 two days in a row could be a coincidence, but it seems more likely that someone had set an alarm on his own phone to remind him or at least had a switched on phone of his own to use as a watch (KK and LS did not have a watch). Moreover, there was one attempted emergency call from each phone at just before 5pm on the day of the hike, then there was a 14 hour gap between the original attempted emergency calls, one from from each phone, and the next phone activity, which was one failed emergency call from each phone the following morning. Crucially, both the phones were both switched off one hour after the first emergency call attempt (one from each phone twelve minutes apart). Are we supposed to believe that after the failed emergency call neither made any retry, and both instead decided to be early to bed for their night lost in a strange jungle, and so in order to get a good nights sleep (and not be bothered by people calling them?) switched both their phones off at the same time and left them off for a whole 13 hours? i t was quite difficult to find the entrance to it on the summit. The signs marking that rough trail (Serpent trail) were not there then. They had already booked a guide for two tours elsewhere, and turned down an offer by him of a reduced price hike down the Serpent train to his ranch and an overnight stay there, but on the morning of the day they disappeared they were unexpectedly at a loose end so contacted the guide through the school intern (Eileen to see if he was available, he was not. I would note that he could not have given Eileen on snapchat a warning to pass on to Kris and Lisannne about it being inadvisable to hike the Serpent by themselves, although he was quick to suggest that was where they had gone after the search started, and so he'd an inkling that morning after the Snapchat inquiry about whether he was available to guide them where they likely would be heading. Two months later after massive searches of the area turned up nothing, he found their first and most important remains some way down the very trail he had offered them a special price trip to visit his ranch. One boot of each girl was found within 48 hours by ... him

The trailhead road consensual pick up would be very high risk indeed compared to an abduction on a remote trail, because the car would be seen by multiple people along the road could have recognized then in the ca when on the road before or after they picked up Kris and Lisanne, or while they were picking them up. There are always more people who see you than you are aware of. Just relying on the many people who live and work around the trailhead all 'turning around' as the car passed is not credible, when one bears in mind thatwhat is suggested is knowing they had been in a witness rich public environment in a car with the girls that day just before they disappeared they then committed a crime against them that would get them ten years in prison minimum.. No. the perps if in a car picking KK and LS up around the trailhead would have to assume they had been seen, quite possibly identified. Let us assume they had got KK and LS to willingly get in a car in hiking clothes with men they hardly knew; it would not obviate the necessity of at some point getting them under control by main force, whereupon they'd be distraught, struggling and screaming, which would attract the attention of anyone who was around. Anyway Kris hair and Lisanne height made them striking and readily noticed especially in a car with local youths. And there are too many people who'd be involved in this kind of scenario, far too many loose ends and _mouths_. Yet on the hike they'd be moving into an area with no witnesses. They went on a hike so they were in good physical condition; their bones ended up 14 hours walk (for locals familiar with the area) down the Serpent trail. The phone deception was by someone very familiar with the area and where the no signal zone is. Kris and Lisanne died because as undefended young women they hiked off of the tourist route and down a remote trail where they would be far from help, and someone who had told them about that trail knew they'd be hiking alone that day and guessed they'd be going there. Kris and Lisanne were not picked up and driven hither and thither, they walked obliviously into the lion's den, where they were waylaid. It only took two men, and they were had a first degree blood relation bond, were confident in their unrivalled knowledge of the terrain, how to move through it so as to minimize the risk of observation, and using its lack of cellphone reception to construct a cover story that this was a tragic mishap.

But didn’t this guy also say one of they was wearing black ? Which is wrong ….

@@seancidy6008 there is absolutely no plausible explanation for the way they used their phones in the Lost in the jungle scenario. You are correct. I think there’s issues with every single theory, but the phone use for me is major in this.

Hola, ¿es posible que abras mi blog y hagas que Google traduzca el texto en inglés? koudekaas.blogspot.com/

Misleading .. he didn’t want them to investigate the correct area

Strange indeed to take a flash photo of the parents, at that spot. Very odd. He also tells someone else on camera: "Don't say anything about...". Maybe it was nothing, but still curious what the parents weren't supposed to hear about

what time of the video?

@@juliannfloress3490 25:29

@@juliannfloress3490 24:29

@@juliannfloress3490 24:36

Hi, I wrote about this in my blog series. Initially, some witnesses reported having seen Kris and Lisanne on the Pianista around 4 pm. There are multiple witnesses actually who reported seeing them or having talked to them in the afternoon. Only after the backpack and camera and phones were found in June, was the timeline adjusted to an 11 am hike up the Pianista trail. It was never explained how witnesses recalled and reported seeing them there in the afternoon. Either those witnesses were off with their recollections (despite being interviewed very early on, so with fresh memories), or they gave false testimonies on purpose, or the time settings of those photos were messed with. It's unclear which scenario can be applied correctly in this case.

Agreed. Local Boquete author Britt Vasarhelyi also wrote that she got into a (hired) car with P. at the end of 2014 and that he talked very openly with her about the case and his suspicions. And they were differing from what he said on TV camera. He told her that he suspected that the girls happened upon some narcos, or at least some Very Bad Men, or perhaps, after becoming lost and disoriented, the girls came upon a place where drugs were stored or being used. 'There are many possible variations of this theory but the nub of it is that the girls and the hombres malos encountered each other, the girls were probably sexually assaulted, and then murdered. Afterward, (this is the guide’s belief) they were callously dismembered and disposed of here and there." "It’s a grisly scenario and unfortunately dismemberment of murder victims is all too common here in Panama." "What the guide had standing behind his belief was experience, and one thing he related was very telling. It was the story of two men he’d agreed to take on an all-day trek. Unfortunately, they were forced to return to Boquete after only two hours as his clients’ boots had become hopelessly shredded. It was his experience, he said, that most foreigners do not buy boots that are capable of withstanding Panama’s arduous terrain. Although next to nothing has been recovered that belonged to Kris and Lisanne, two boots were found, blue shoe one - horribly - with a foot still in it. And while one boot showed medium signs of wear, the other was almost pristine in appearance. The girls, the guide believes, were abducted soon after they began their trek, perhaps not long after they crested the Continental Divide and headed unknowingly down the Caribbean side instead of back to their hostel in Boquete." "The boots did not show enough wear, he thinks, to have endured a 15-hour trek to the place where the handful of bones, backpack, and footwear were finally discovered." As for the other guide, yes him going alone to look for Kris and Lisanne on day 3 already, against the orders of Sinaproc, and then him and his men finding most of the important remains, despite Sinaproc having gone over that same area for months at that point and declaring on camera that it is unheard of that they found absolutely nothing. That they never before had people missing out there that were not found by them.. Well it is all a bit remarkable and at the very least should have kickstarted a forensic investigation of the guide and his houses. But nothing was ever investigated, not even his whereabouts, his phone locations, his online google searches.. Nada. Niente.

@@scarletr.7753 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-cF_9AfrKWKg.html Trail walk for the Serpent by Kris's parents. It was the 3rd and he went by himself, somehow choosing the correct trail. P was out with other people in a group searching the first few days and those early searchers noticed according to Kryt that our friend was not there.

yes, about the drug... I have interesting thoughts. Do farmers use colored LED grow lights? Pink for example.

@@scarletr.7753 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-gjMTKtA8jVU.html "Mariana Atencio and Jeremy Kryt are exploring the untold story in a new podcast titled “Lost in Panama”. Mariana Atencio joins MSNBC’s Alicia Menendez to discuss the podcast and the latest on the investigation."

He is an anus. Those men. “Tourist guides” pfftttt

The witnesses were all interviewed in the weeks and even months after the disappearance. But before the backpack and camera and phones were found in June 2014. So none of them knew yet what the girls wore. And truth be told: nobody seems to have correctly mentioned any of their clothing. Which is rather odd, given the striking red and white striped shirt Kris wore according to their own photos.

@@scarletr.7753 You are right that this is odd, as almost everything about this case. Some other odd questions to which I can't seem to find the answer anywhere: Even the book is contradictory about this: When did Kris and her bf last had contact by phone, 2am dutch time or 2pm panama time? There seem to be at least one other pair of (german) women that fit their description and might have been at the pianista trailhead and been mistaken for K&L. How did they never find these women and how did they not made any statement in a case this big? The browser search history at the language school is brought as evidence that they looked up the pianista trail. Then they should also know the search time or not? As there seems to be no cab driver coming forth who drove them to the trail in the morning, why did nobody seem to consider that they have taken the bus, which would have saved them money? How did Eileen (who was also under the influence of FG) not remember the time or even the day she last saw K&L? If she was afraid of someone, why not tell the truth later when she was back in safety?

How the old woman who saw them supposedly around 4 pm can say that she didn't warn them that it was too late because they didn't speak Spanish? How could she have known that they would not have understood Spanish?

Hi yeh I covered it on my blog, not in a video though. Indeed there is a strong theory that in the down right corner, a string of darker hair of Lisanne is visible, in which case the two girls would most likely be laying down next to each other or even on top one another (and that photo would have been taken by a 3rd party then). But it is just really hard to be sure it is Lisanne's hair, and not the effect of shadow. I go over the hair here: koudekaas.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-bones-it-was-time-for-police-to-go.html And down this longlonglong blog post, there are also different theories covered regarding this photo, under the header "A graphic designer sent me interesting photo compositions": koudekaas.blogspot.com/2021/07/part-2-with-new-leads-new-swimming.html

@@scarletr.7753 Thank you for replying. I will definitely take a look.

It is a combination of 3 pics of her hair into one. It fits perfectly.

Oh gosh, I saw about ten minutes of one of Pat's videos and the one-sidedness of it was... palpable. Very curious what you made of her videos, will definitely check it out. Thanks for the heads-up and the credit given :)

@@scarletr.7753 If anyone knows me the two sources I hold above all others on the matter are you and the imperfect plan. Pat's video left me confused because if I remember correctly she said her main sources was the book "lost in the jungle" and the YT page "Answers for Kris." That confused me because I searched for "Answers for Kris" and I never found a YT creator- just a reference to one or two of your videos. I wasn't sure if Pat used you as a source or not.

@@arnolddonaldson7129 I watched your video Arnold and added it to my case playlist here. A good breakdown of Pat's very underwhelming videos about this case. I agree with the points you make and Pat did give a very biased and one-sided take on the case. I am not neutral myself either but that doesn't mean that we have to nitpick from the available information, in order to try to discredit another 'camp. As she did. Looks and sounds pretty unprofessional, based on her videos about this case alone. She may be great otherwise, I haven't seen any of her other work tbh. And then to link to that book of lies lol. Yeh, enough said there. PItti's private PR project. The authors ripped off other people's work, then nitpicked themselves from the available information and made this corrupt deal with Pitti, who was fired from her job in 2015 but nevertheless took the case files with her. Now exchanged them for glowing, nonsensical PR about her contributions to this case (more like; she ruined the investigation) and some woe-is-me chapters she could write herself. Uggghhhh. Then Pat had the nerve to make comments about other youtubers/bloggers etc, that they only portray this case as a crime case because they want to make money off of this case. So can we therefore assume that Pat herself has not monetized HER videos? I doubt that. Book authors made bucks off of this case and other ppl's work as well, even going against the clear wishes of the parents. Hypocrites, as always. Besides, I have not monetized my youtube channel and neither my blog. But people like Pat prefer to ignore those facts. Anyway, rant over haha. Good video you made, thanks for the heads up. And for your kind words. I may believe in foul play in this case, but I do offer all available information WITH footnoted and source mentions (unlike certain book authors). Will follow your channel, thanks again. Oh and I have no idea if she checked my youtube channel or used it as a source. If so, she seems to have forgotten to mention my name..

@@scarletr.7753 thank you Scarlet. That is quite an honor to be linked in on of your playlists. I am humbled. Thank you. I think Pat requests Patreons. I could be wrong. I don't want to watch video again. But for some reason I wrote down her encouraging patreons. This never sits well with me when allegedly very successful people resort to asking viewership for money.

@@arnolddonaldson7129 Indeed. And what's worse is to make snide comments then about some youtubers who may (or may not) make some small bucks from advertisements. Using that argument to say they really have ulterior motives for keeping the foul play theory alive. Really uncalled for. Especially from someone who's herself begging for other people's money through Patreon. But I'd have to listen to her latest case video again then also, to check what she literally said and like you, that just doesn't feel like a nice way to spend the evening.

Yep. This picture and the look on both women's faces summarized it all perfectly for me. The parents were stuck with a bunch of unprofessional and corrupt law enforcers and were facing struggles at every turn. imagenes.laestrella.com.pa/files/image_990_491/uploads/2019/10/15/5da5fab6ad3b4.jpeg

@@scarletr.7753 Kris's mom seemed to have found guide eff charming. I think she would be shocked by the results of an investigation done without instructions from the very highest authorities that there had not been a double homicide. Betzaida Pitti was 'professional' in the sense that she accepted her bosses' pre emptive determination that the case was one of death by misadventure. Cognitive dissonance due to wanting to keep her job and her unpleasant experience of walking on the Serpent trail when it was a quagmire with dangerous rivers (rather that during a drought as when Kris and Lisanne disappeared) likely convinced her in her own mind that she was acting according to justice.

@@scarletr.7753 I'm sure you also found it odd, how Guide F. took a picture of Hans Kremers filming the trail... I am sure, the reason why he *reacted* in the same way (as Hans was filming him) was because he didn't like being focussed on (it's a subconcious thing), so with him, doing the same, was his way to "equalize" the situation that made him feel - to the extent he's able to feel - uncomfortable.

Agreed but dishearteningly it’s been 8 years and not much has been done :((

@@GalacticExplorer83 True. But hearing from experts (who are not Panamanians) if it's possible their bones got that way in a short time or if they find the location of the night photos would be an advance to solve the case (I hope).

I hope so too, but it has to be a neutral, professional and independent production then. Supported by the parents. Not made to clean the slate of Betzaida Pittí and to perpetuate falsehoods. I hope also for such a professional investigational series, perhaps in collaboration with Jeremy Kryt

Also i heard that you can tell if someone’s lying if they look right they are lying if they look left they are looking into there memories and telling the truth.

Not much of a expert on body language but that’s what I figure!

@@GalacticExplorer83 A pre 2014 client of his described him as' somewhat 'frenetic', he certainly seems a bit odd what with the way his voice was screechy and he waved his hands about while talking. I think by then he he realised that 'finding' the remains was a serious mistake on his part.

In Panama and those kinds of parts of the world life is cheap and it’s treated that way.

Hay que prestar más atención en el lugar donde se tomo la ultima foto "con certeza" 508, ya por las diferentes documentación del sendero es claro que es en la 1era quebrada despues del mirador; luego esta esa brecha de 2horas y 45 minutos sin aparente actividad en la camara y telefono antes de la 1era llamada de emergencia, es extraño este detalle lo más llamativo del sendero a parte del mirador podria ser la 3era corriente/ rio despues del mirador, ya que este tiene un mayor caudal de agua, una minicascada, es un rio pequeño bonito; de este no hay ninguna foto cosa que es bastante extraña si las chicas siguieron el sendero, secuencialmente tomaban fotos por que no lo harian aqui si este lugar esta solo a unos minutos más adelante de foto 508? Recalquemos esto: en el tramo entre 2da corriente/ quebrada despues del mirador y 3era corriente/ Rio hay un sitio donde el camino es más abierto que parece una colina, es en este lugar donde Romain C. en su video se consigue con vacas y tambien más recientemente Lemo Ngäbere se consigue con la persona ( o personas, no me quedo claro) cortando monte en medio de una lluvia, habla y decide devolverse. Victor Hugo en un comentario refiere no estar seguro si este tramo estaba así en el 2014 o talaron arboles posteriormente. Es una especulación o tal vez una deducción mia la "causa" de la desaparición de las chicas se presento poco despues de la foto 508. Yo creo que estas corrientes de agua fueron inspeccionadas en algún momento, seria logico pero no tengo certeza ni información. Que mostraba foto 509???

Sobre los "testigos" y sus declaraciones para no ser repetitivo, por razones obvias Kk y LF no comenzaron su caminata despues de las 4pm pero hay que prestarle atención a la declaración de la Sra. Oliva ella acierta en la forma como andaban vestidas e incluso refiere que el día despues se entera que se extraviaron, entonces quiere decir que ya para 2-3 abril 2014 se presumian desaparecidas en el sendero el pianista, ahora estas entrevistas fueron antes de revelar las fotos de las chicas. A quienes vio supuestamente Oliva, porque no eran KK y LF y estas personas que vio despues de las 4pm debieron regresar en algún momento? Incluso en las entrevistas se deja ver como varios miembros de busqueda oficial indican que las busquedas han dado resultados negativos que es probable que las chicas fueran trasladadas a otro lugar. Y esta esto que no debe pasar desapercibido: absolutamente nadie menciona a las chicas a las 11am en el inicio del sendero!!!

@@carlosbrizuela6521 can’t understand you my friend

@@GalacticExplorer83 Mira el sendero documentado en videos para que entiendas a que me refiero, ya varias personas en sus canales de youtube han documentado extensamente el sendero.

Lo que dice la señora de que las vio subir a las 4 de la tarde es mentira, está comprobado que ellas empezaron el camino aproximadamente a las 11 de la mañana, quien les hizo lo que les hizo tuvo tiempo para llevarlas lejos, el guía tiene mucho que ver porque ellas no pudieron llegar hasta donde se tomaron la última foto solas, está muy lejos eso, pero quién les hizo lo que les hizo está protegido por las autoridades y por eso los locales no hablaron la verdad. Por miedo, saludos.

perdon, feliciano gonzalez.

@@criciairaheta1512 tienes razón, por la hubicacion del sol en las fotos, claramente se ve que no eran las 16 hs, eso se olvidaron los que querían confundir ..... Es evidente que muchas de las fotos son fingidas., Y en las últimas Lisanne no aparece

Did I write it out incorrectly in the subtitles here? Apologies. On my blog I have it written as Piedra de Lino indeed. And the hostel owner is Pedro.

@@scarletr.7753 reckon I saw it as Pedro, which is wrong. Gr8, take care!!

That was an early claim. It is complicated, the owners of a restaurant on the trail claimed this, but they may have had ulterior motives to do so. In any case, there had never been even a glimpse of the dog in any of the photos of Kris and Lisanne and most people agree the dog never was with them, in fact

Hi, yeh Kris and Lisanne had not changed the time on their digital camera. It was still stuck at 2013, instead of 2014. And the hour was not adjusted either. But their mobile phones would have adjusted I think.

He withdrew that statement to the police soon after. Went back to the police to withdraw it. Not sure why and whether or not he spoke the truth initially.

@@scarletr.7753 I'm sure: on reflection he thought it would not be great for his business to have everyone thinking that the trail he makes much of his living from is one you might never return from, and he was the last one to see two probable homicide victims on. He explained it as mistaken identity, but he could hardly have got the day wrong. Maybe it was not them but those lookalikes who went swimming (which KK and LS are supposed not to nave done), but this time the doppelganger duo went to a place Kris and Lisanne were going to be hours later! If P made that mistake why could the 'witnesses' not have made it too?; thus, the other sightings on the trail of KK and LS might have actually been of P's lookalikes, if they had existed

@@seancidy6008 It was interesting. As it was quite a specific statement. And if he suddenly believed to have seen two OTHER European tourists, who 'all look alike: tall, white, light hair and the same clothes. And always in pairs of two", then why did these two lookalike tourists never come forward? I'm sure that if two similar looking women had hiked that Pianista that same April 1st around noon, that we would have known about it by now, as even tourists visiting Boquete the weeks and months after the fact knew about the missing Dutch girls. That news was everywhere. Imagine such a big case, and you had been a female and had hiked that same trail on the same day and you happened to look just like Kris and your friend like Lisanne... wouldn't you have informed police or the media about it? That's also why I do not believe in the easy excuse that it were two other lookalikes in that swimming photo. No, they are Kris and Lisanne, and those lookalikes have also never further been described or detailed in any way. Just a cop out excuse. So did guide P. withdraw his statement because he thought he made it all up? Or because it were two other women he passed? Or perhaps, indeed, because that sort of attention and witnesshood was not good for business? I don't know and we can be sure alays that Betzaida Pittí didn't further prod.

Say cheese! 1.bp.blogspot.com/-M1na1rRTlGE/YJfqG73InQI/AAAAAAAAG0s/jm7ZG1tv2oMGedUhQlw0KT-pJ15d7AAOgCLcBGAsYHQ/w451-h251/F2.jpg

@@scarletr.7753 Ahhhhhh

​@@scarletr.7753i got chills......plus the time that another of the guys perfectly chopped the tree with the machete

I agree. There is literally no rational explanation for this if we have to believe it were Kris or Lisanne taking these photos on the 8th night. Because why would they burn through the camera battery with 100 nearly identical photos at night? Why not use that camera for light or orientation or whatever in the week prior? There has never been any evidence presented that a helicopter flew in the area at night, that night. In fact, it has been explicitly stated by authorities that this was not the case (way too dangerous also for pilots to fly over a jungle in a helicopter in the dark of night with not even much moonlight). There are people who want to believe that Sinaproc must have had searchers nearby, and that's why the pictures were taken, as a way to attract attention. But again; after nine years now, there is zero evidence that this was the case. Sinaprocs maps and notes do not point to such a thing and neither did any search member come forward to declare any such thing. One Dutch forum member created a schedule years ago and put it out there that search groups were on the go during the night of April 8th, but this is unverified and likely made up. So that leaves us with even more question marks. If Kris and Lisanne had been really 'lost' and stuck in some cave in the wild, why would they risk or even try to deplete the battery of their digital Canon camera like that? They could have made a video of themselves or have taken photos that show their faces or make their plight clear. Instead we have mostly (purposely made) vague photos of the same tree tops. They look completely staged. There have also been organized and professional searches until January 2015 and nobody ever found any signs of their presence in any cave or in any local shed. No food remnants that can be linked to these girls, no hairs, no pieces of clothing, nothing. They never were stuck in a cave, at least not by themselves.

For sure. Everyone is innocent as nobody was investigated. And he seems to have done a lot in this case.

@@scarletr.7753 He did not tell them to _not_ go on this trail that he had interested them in without him, which is why they did in fact go in it. He was asked through Eileen that morning that if he could guide them, and he just said no. One would think he had every reason (financial as he was booked to take them the next day which they would be likely to cancel and worry they might not be safe) to ask Eileen to warn them against hiking alone that day. He was not told where they would be hiking if they decided to go alone, but he could have made a good guess.

@@scarletr.7753 As the tagline for Wolf Creek2 has it "In life it is not which path you chose. It's whose path you cross.'

Nevertheless, this is what we have in this case, in terms of supposed witnesses that went public and on camera. I cover more stuff that was claimed in writing on my blog. None of it makes sense and nothing matches the EXIF data. It's a guess for everyone at this stage who is lying and making up stuff and who isn't. But at least it has been documented..

True or not their involved in this case now. Also the government makes the most money from tourism not the citizens and the citizens mostly are labourers not tour guides,

@@scarletr.7753 The family back home lost contact about 2pm which ties in with the same time for photo 508 crossing the stream, and the first emergency call being made when the down slope of the stream got suddenly darker as the shadow of the mountain hit it. Several lines of evidence converge on a scenario of KK and LS being taken off of the trail near the stream shown in photo 508 soon after 2pm, by a couple of men who were waiting near that position, which is has the first suitable exfiltration from the trail the outside the phone signal reception zone (20 minutes past it). Using unrivalled local knowledge the captors could then them some distance down the slope beside along the streambed, where they could wait for nightfall, when the farming and herding residents of the area would have finish worked and returned to their homes. Then, the first emergency calls could be faked allowing KK and LS to be moved unobserved across the now deserted area to somewhere more remote. The signal strength of the phone may not be very reliable yet it does support them moving at right angles to the trail, and being in a location along such a vector when the first attempted emergency calls were faked.

Thanks, I disagree with your stance but thanks for commenting.

@lati long "Good day I do not completely rule out foul play but if yes, we simply do not know who's really involved." You are not alone in championing that view. Yet mine is, I think, part of the prevailing balance of opinion for which a double homicide is the most plausible explanation for the plethora of otherwise very peculiar occurrences and 'coincidences'; quite a lot of which involve one man. He is not exactly 'Where's Wally?' in this story. Over months both before and after Kris and Lianne disappeared he was hyperactively prominent in the frame. Except in the very earliest searches in the first week, where our person of interest was strangely absent; busy elsewhere I expect. "From articles written since around 2015, much of the interest in foul play appeared to have been revived due to the untimely death of the taxi driver who allegedly drove them to the base". No, the taxi driver would not have had time to get to the last daytime photo location, and did not know that trail and its phone reception zones well enough, Also his death near people in town with a fresh body to have an autopsy performed on it would have been a lot more difficult to manage to fake as an accident that two helpless girls in the middle of nowhere reduced to a few handfuls of bone fragments. Lisanne was flat chested, but Kris was not small in that department, she was average. Both bras were in a similar condition, so taken off at the same time, and never used for strapping injuries, although the phones were used until the 11th then put back in the backpack where the bras were, so they had access to the backpack until the end. Kris died without her shorts on (they had no decomposition products), or one of her boots. Both sunglasses, both bras, both phones, both their shorts and one boot from both were found (within 48 hours by the same man who had told Kris and Lisanne about that trail), yet although their remains and the various theories of accidental death all seem to indicate very different dates and circumstances of death, neither's underwear and neither's tops ever turned up . Finding the clean backpack with the bras, makes zero sense. While it might if we were dealing with one person who could have been committing a disguised suicide, these were a couple of optimistic young women. Who takes their bra, let alone their pants, off in the jungle with all the creepy crawlies? Simultaneous removal of that item of apparel indicates it was not of their choice. Everyone, police included, must have understood the significance of finds around Alto Romero two months after the disappearances being made by a person whose name had came connecting a live Kris and Lisanne and the particular trail they vanished on before the went on the fateful hike. Having already semi officially pronounced it an accidental double death, Panama's government didn't want to acknowledge it was now obviously nothing of the kind, so the police pretended not to notice the damming circumstantial evidence

Wow. You just don't want to believe the truth.

Those girls were obviously murdered Geeze

Aceptalo tú. Te resulta más cómodo, menos engorroso.

I believe they met foul play and that the swimming photo is linked to this.

@@scarletr.7753 have you listend to the "lost in panama" podcast? its on spotify. It has some really interesting infos on that case. I can highly recommend it

@@monkelmann Yes! I have written extensive summaries of the podcast and added my views on my blog, you can find it here: koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-travel-channel-episode-on-kris-and.html

He claims so, but since he was never investigated, nobody ever saw the proof of it

@@scarletr.7753 probably not only for me, Feliciano and Henry Gonzalez, are among the main suspects...

@@scarletr.7753 This terrible case shocked me so bad, that I wachted all the movies about these Dutch lost girls on RU-vid...