Updated: All the photos taken by Kris Kremers & Lisanne Froon during their Panama stay. Chronologic 

We're just left with the theory of them being followed/attacked after continuing past the waterfall the psycholgical possibility of what happened with all these photos just paints a sidious picture

Honestly me too I can’t imagine being alone in the forest with a friend as defenseless as you while you know someone’s watching you

​@juanalonso8149 rule number one don't go to jungle alone if you are girls . Advice : go with a group of guys and with trained police dogs . For defense. Wear hunting clothing . Never go with bright colors . Use a line tracker to not lose the road . Don't scream in a jungle . Don't run . Get a gun if possible .

@@juanalonso8149 Now imagine being alone and defenseless in the pitch black forest next to your DEAD friend, because that's probably how it was, as I believe they suffered some kind of accident that rendered them immobile. So one of them would have died first, leaving the other alone next to a corpse.

@@TylerChamb no it’s obvious they were murdered

So sad eh.. Wished we could enter a time machine and tell them in Bocas: girls, go home! Don't get in that shuttle bus to the mountains. Enjoy your life and studies at home.. But alas

Yes Scarlet, if only. On the other hand most people wouldn't listen, especially young and adventurous types... "ohh don't be silly, nothing is going to happen!". So even a time machine wouldn't help. I listen to and read about a lot of missing people cases (Missing 411 etc) and it happens over and over. Neither of us knew Kris and Lisanne but they seem almost like family now, as silly as that seems to say. Knowing about them, seeing their pictures etc really personalises the case. Sadly though, even getting into a car can end your life. We just don't know what's going to happen. I guess we can't wrap ourselves up in cotton wool. We have to do what we have to do. 😕

@@lyndoncmp5751 Yeh those missing hikers, world wide, are fascinating and scary. I follow several channels here that are dedicated to missing hikers in national parks etc. While most seem to have fallen victim to accidents, poor planning, weather changes and getting lost, there are also some harrowing cases of people literally disappearing while in eyesight of friends and family. It is true and travel channels and instagram and all that stuff mainly highlight and propagates the wonders of traveling. That whole young invincible vibe, it's true. I always think: why WOULDN'T something bad happen to you? Why would you be spared? From Lisanne's writings it also appeared that she used the trip as a rite of passage sort of coming of age adventure. But that deep down, she was not as comfortable as Kris about it all. And the slightest setback would make her feel panicked and homesick. That somehow makes their whole ordeal feel even worse to me. Knowing what hell she ended up in, one way or another. never dismiss your gut feelings. She wanted to go home as soon as she set foot in Boquete :(

Yes Scarlet, I never realised before how Lisanne probably wasn't as comfortable out there as Kris. Kris seems to have been the more carefree one, from what you, Juan and others have been saying. Im more like you now that I'm older, but I never used to be. I never used to care. For example I travelled around Australia backpacking and didn't think twice about accepting lifts from strangers in the middle of nowhere. This was after the Ivan Milat backpacker murders, where he picked up tourists and drove them off into the woods near Sydney. It just didn't enter my head. I was stupid. Nowadays Im far more careful and don't even like flying after watching all these documentaries on planes going down. I'll stick to my bike rides along the Thames. I only have to worry about getting a puncture 😂. The last time I went somewhere dicey abroad my gut feeling told me not to do something so I didn't. Me and a friend from Texas were driving around some back roads in rural Arkansas and it kind of spooked me because I knew the locals have guns and I felt like I was encroaching on their space so I asked my friend to get away from there quickly. We did. It wasn't worth pushing it. So I totally agree about gut feelings now. Yes I watch the David Paulides videos. I don't agree with all of it. Some can be explained but others can't. Real mysteries. I do think there are certain people who just have to have a neat resolution to everything, with absolutely no mysteries, nothing unexplained, nothing open ended. That's why some people have the need to simply write off Kris and Lisanne as just getting lost/having an accident. Because that's how they see life. They don't like anything unresolved. They like to tie things up in cute little bows. 🤔

@@lyndoncmp5751 Ohhhh for real? You went hitchhiking in Australia and this was after the Ivan Milat events? (GRUESOME events those were, the stuff of nightmares). It may have to do with someone's general character (carefree and optimistic vs melancholic and pessimistic), or in my case I can blame my parents haha. They warned us for ever for flashers, child abductors, drugs that would make you brain dead or locked in eternal LSD-sort of trips. I never dared to hitchhike. But then again, I did jump from a plane and despite watching all the air crash investigation videos I fly all the time and love it. Life comes with some levels of risk. But we try to calculate them as best as we can. My best (female) friend went backpacking on her own in the early 2000's, through North Africa and the Middle East. She was fine and still longs for those times to return. But she is a bit of a sturdy no-nonsense type and not very impressionable, so that may help :) But yeh, as we age we tend to become more aware of our own mortality and that good health doesn't last for ever either. Oh but bike rides can be dangerous too 😂Make sure you don't tumble and knock your head or teeth. My uncle died from a mundane bike ride, falling over and hitting the side of his head on a small wooden pole at the side of the road. true story... Glad you were cautious in Texas though. Yeh Paulides can be a bit oif a rambling mess if you ask me. Sometimes he seems to be looking for overarching clues. But there are a lot of unexplained disappearances and I hear over and over again for instance that the American Appalachian trail has scary parts, with wild people or druggies living in some parts of the woods, trying to harm hikers. Brrrrr

Thanks for all your hard work PP, so much appreciated

Thanks.. Out of curiosity, was the 4chan picture perhaps a general gore/snuff type of photo of some white (bloodied) woman with red hair? I believe there was something similar shared at some point on Lee Zeltzers forum. But nobody (screen)saved the photo and then it disappeared again. Seeing how much horrific footage is spread on the dark web, it may very well be lookalike victims..

I truly hope the truth eventually prevails and justice is served for them and their families R.I.P lissane and kriss!!I too believe they were killed!💙💙🙏🙏🙏⚘⚘⚘⚘

​@brendamagic2223 the truth is cover up its been 10 years now 😢😢

@@brendamagic2223 How little knowledge foulplay-believers have about this case is proven by the fact, that they dont even know how the names of Lisanne and Kris is written correct.

Thanks for your kind words. Really nice to read about you spending so much time reading my blog. Yes I also lean towards Margarita's story touching on the truth. I am not sure it is 100% the truth, because personally I believe that Osman may have had a little bit more to do with it all than his mom portrays it to be. She may have been spared by her son or by others, when told about all this. Not that Osman was the bad guy or anything, but I do think he was into H. and his gang and may have witnessed more. Yes the photos may have been partially rearranged. I am still not convinced that the summit photos for instance are in the precise chronological order. I wouldn't be surprised if those different cloud/blue sky backgrounds correlate in fact with two spaced apart summit times. And then got reshuffled to make it look like Kris and Lisanne only once passed the Mirador and then walked into the jungle, never to return (as Pitti and her corrupt cronies make it out to be). But this is altogether a bit of a side topic and not all that important for the story probably, other than (if true) proving how corrupt the prosecutor and her team were, and that we cannot trust their unproven conclusions. And indeed, if true then we cannot trust the date/time specifics of the night photos either. And more importantly: then the all important phone logs are fair game for scepticism too.

@@scarletr.7753 On your own channel there is a video, where Feliziano goes with the parents beyond El Mirador, and you can see, they come to the river of image 508 (thats beyond El Mirador). You can compare (espescially the stones on the left side) that its the same spot like image 508. Therefore the order of the photos are fitting. The clouds on El Mirador are also absolutely fitting to the camera settings (the camera has a automatic light adjustement, ..it prioritize the foreground with the people (that they are light up correctly) - for that goal its important that the camera for instance sets the shutter speed and iso, and F-number different ... and with that a sky can look like its full of clouds (like white, instead of blueish)). The clouds are absolutely fitting perfect together at El Mirador. As far i researched, the witnesses and moms, and Margaritas, and Osmans, etc are very unreliable sources.. everyone tells their own story, and everyone thinks he knows something what others dont know. There are two reliable sources in my opinion: The concrete data of the phones (the parents still have all the uncropped , unresized, unchanged photos of the SD card, and the smartphones ... both parents never published it to the internet (its not forbidden for them). Second: what the girls didnt did (espescially on 1st April). For instance they didnt called the host family. They didnt made photos from the maedows (which were only 20-30 minutes from image 508). For me that means, that they never reached the maedows - because if they have reached it, they would as sure as hell, make fotos from that nice spot. That also means for me, the girls very likely, doesnt even got to the monkey bridge (at least not on the first day) , because the monkey bridge is beyond the maedows. Every foul play or third party involvement is a big contradiction to any behavior of criminals-101. Not one single murderer gives the phones and camera of the victims to the police. Not one murderer hides his traces by calling 911 , and 112 itself from the phones of the girls. Yes, every internetfolks can say: "that was on purpose, to let it look like two girls got lost" ... no... no criminal risks that , to get traced by the phones (yes, that was easily a possibility - espescially, because at one point one of the phones got a 1bar signal ). No criminal risks that. No criminal gives the backpack to be found (no criminal can avoid the risk, that a dna-sample could be found on the bra by coincidence ). .. There is no reason for that. A lost backpack also would not contradict the get-lost-theory (if a criminal wants to convince the police from a get-lost-theory). Reinhold Messners brother and his belongings for instance never got found. And still no one questions that he got lost, and didnt got murdered. Same with the girls: if nothing would have been found of them, also no one would questioned it the way "nothing was found, therefore it only can be murder" ... If it was murder , the criminals behaved like no one criminal ever behaved on this planet .. because they did everything to get caught more easily (again, they could not know, that the phone-datas could not trace them in any way shape or form). Its simply not how criminals behave. But i know, this foul-play-theory gives the most peace for internetfolks, because it fills all the missing information gaps. Its like inventing an alien-story, which would also fill every missing information gap. Because its quiet a uncomforty feeling: to have so much data, and its still not enough to know for sure what happened. By the way.. .i have a few ideas, how maybe some additional data could be won.. I am not sure, wether it works... for instance: the night shots could be imagestacked (by a astrophoto-software). That could erase the water drops , and increase the dynamic range of a small area of the nightphotos (the area with the most overlapping). It would maybe give more picture-information about: wether the trees covered the whole sky, or not. maybe even more details would be visible that way about the surrounding. As you see: i try to use the information we have... and i am not the type of guy, who invents new information, just to fill the missing-information-gaps. I know that the foul-play-theory is extremely alluring - and everything can make "fit to theory".

@@PygmalionFaciebat Your attempt to disprove the “foul play theory” is based on your assumptions about the behavior of criminals. You assume they're all very rational and careful, in a serial killer way. Not everyone is like that. When you study human psychology, you inevitably come across irrational behavior. And we don't even know how many people might be involved in this, which would make it even more difficult to control the situation. Continuing...Why do you assume that the criminal himself handed over the backpack and backpack to the police? Couldn't they have kept those objects precisely so they wouldn't be found and with the case being widely publicized by the local media, they didn't want to run the risk of being discovered and decided to abandon the objects? This seems to be a logical assumption. Also, why do you think it was criminals who called 911 and not the girls? It should be noted that these emergency calls were only made up to the 3rd, that is, up to 2 days after the disappearance. After that, it's just signal checks. Who knows whose hands these devices were in at that point..

​@@fferraripsi Wrong. As silly as my first posting sounded ... those were NOT my assumptions about the criminals. In fact, i only recite the assumptions of the "foul-play-believers" about the criminals. I just point it out, how ridicilous those assumptions are. And it seems, that you agree with that. I'm glad you agree how silly the assumptions of the foul-play-believers are. If we want to make the foul-play-theory work ''because its the most exciting theory, because, who cares what the truth is, when we have exciting explainations'' , THAN : it NEEDS the superintelligent criminal. And you even admit that, when you later on assume: that the criminal was intelligent , and 'kept the backpack, and then when the risk got higher, they tried to abandon the backpack' This theory - as much as you want to make it work, has flaws... Even the most backward criminal would never throw the backpack into a river - to be found by ''anyone'' ... Even the most backward criminal (hell, even children) know: that they should dig a hole, and put it there - soil on it - and it will never be found in the jungle. A criminal, who is smart enough, to not be caught for months, is according to you: backwards enough, to not hide the backpack 2 feets into soil. Alright. Nice contradiction. Also it could be burned also. But the criminal didnt. Plastic burns quiet good. And its not uncommon, that indigenous folks burn something - so its not suspicious at all. But instead of that: the backback was found in the river (no it was not on a dry place... a woman found it and the backpack was half submerged into water ... and no, it was not in mint condition, as foul-play-believers say ... but it was quiet dirty). Unfortunately, the indigenous people cleaned the backpack with water - and yes: then it looked mint ... also the fingerprints of those people were on it after that). Also you maybe not familiar with the fact: That in the backpack not only the bras and the waterbottle was in it... but also the passport of the two women (no criminal would do that - to make it easier for investigators to connect whos backpack it was). And also the camera was in it - so that photos on it also showed that the backpack belonged to Kris and Lisanne. You know: without those photos, who were given by the criminals (according to you), it would have been quiet hard to estimate for the panama-investigators: how exactly the backpack looked, and how exactly the bras looked , and the sunglasses. But because how generous the criminals were: they gave all the photos to the police... the smartphone-fotos, and the camera-fotos. Because camera and smartphones were in the backback. Sorry... but no... simply no ;) There is not one single criminal-case on this planet - ever in history, where a criminal did such a thing. To ''make it look like the girls got lost'' - is absolutely ridicilous, and risks it that investigators found the criminals, by fotos, cellphone-data, etc.. Not one criminal on this planet would risk that, just to ''set up a get lost theory, by giving literally EVERYTHING the girls had with them'' - sorry, but just: no. As for the ''there were no emergency-calls after 3rd april'' ... you have to know: it was the night of 2nd to 3rd april, where Lisanne drained her phone completely. Meaning: Kris Iphone was the only phone left. The only hope. And Kris Iphone was at 39% battery at that point , because both girls startet with around 50% battery on 1st April in the first place. So yes - 39% battery is not a lot in such a situation. And Kris was surely even more shocked, when she saw, that Lisanne drained her phone completely. I am sure, that Kris took that shocking moment, and was even more careful with her phone, and turned it off, and just turned it on for looking for signal (you know: there is no reason to make a call without signal - only if you want to drain your last smartphone even more... is this really so hard to understand ?) When Kris Phone dropped to 31% on 5th April, she even made a more battery-saving decision: to not even enter a pincode - because checking for signal is also possible, without booting the Iphone (which would drain the battery more). With that, Kris managed to save battery for another 6 days ... in the next 6 days, her battery drained as little, as between 3rd april and 5th April. Thats a very smart move Kris made. She knew: the human body could possible survive for 10-14 days without food ... so she knew: she needs her phone for at least a weak from 5th April on. And you can make emergency call even without booting the phone, if you see signal. So there was no need to enter a pin code. The data of the iphone4 doesnt distinguish between: ''not entered pincode'' - and ''wrong pincode entered''. At least as far i researched. Correct me if i am wrong. On the last day (11th april) though, Kris Iphone was drained to almost zero - in just an hour. For me, thats the handwriting of Lisanne. Not only did she drained her own phone in one night... but she also drained her camera (8th april) in one night. That behavior of ''draining a device completely in an emergency situation" has the handwriting of Lisanne. Therefore i am very sure, that Lisanne was the last survivor, and she was the last one, who turned it on for an hour - until the battery was empty. All of this fits so much more to a got-lost-theory and starvation, and unexperience ... than to a foul play. But i admit: foul play theories in general are much more exciting. We all like exciting stories - espescially when we have a bad person to blame. Psychologically we dont want to blame Kris and Lisanne - by saying ''it was their own fault'' .. because they were really nice girls, and we are very uneased with the feeling: how easily this could be prevented - but they didnt (for many reasons: not good prepared... no compass, no gears, .. no food , etc ). Hell even on my kindergarten-hikes in my childhood, i was better equipped, than Lisanne and Kris... but still the people love to go with the faul-play-theory .

@@PygmalionFaciebat "As far as I researched..." Yeah, that`s the problem right there. You didn`t do too much research, you went the simplistic route. Funny guy.

There soûls are now in peace. They are gone . Not the first time this world is evil without following God. Same thing will remain happening. 😢

@shanegarthwaite4508 Please tell us which minute and second

@@carikune5614 I am asking people to please look at the photo of Kris' hair (4:49 in this video). I see a blue eye on the left part of the picture - like Lisanne is holding Kris and took a picture of both of them. Lisanne would be facing Kris, perhaps embracing her. The eye is perfect, but it does seem to be a person in very bad physical conditions. I think it could be a sort of goodbye, with Kris no longer alive.

Thanks.. Yeh I thought the old one was good to go still, but some people commented about the chronology and I then realised that photo #506 (which at the time I did not know the number of) was placed after photo #508. That was a guess at the time, but clearly a wrong one. Since that photo 508 and the one coming right after is so very important in fact for the timeline and the mystery of this case, it seemed too big an error to keep online. Oh well :)

@@scarletr.7753 Yes, I had already noticed the small mistake, but it never bothered me. You did well to correct and add more pertinent photos. The photo at 1min44s may be a strong indication that the girls really went out into the nightlife of the city of Boquete between 18:00 and 00:00 on the 30th. This narrative is strong, not weak. Sim, eu já tinha percebido o pequeno erro, mas nunca me atrapalhou. Você fez bem em corrigir e acrescentar mais fotos pertinentes. A foto aos 1min44s, pode ser um forte indício de que as garotas realmente sairam para a vida noturna da cidade de Boquete entre 18 horas e zero horas do dia 30. Essa narrativa é forte, não é fraca.

@@eliaslima5506 Interestingly, I never paid that photo close attention! It is one of those photos which did not come with a timestamp unfortunately. I therefore cannot be certain this was taken in Boquete and not in Bocas, but somehow that seemed the case and I saw it in a batch of Boquete photos initially. But it would be very interesting if anyone can perhaps identify that place (even though by now, nearly 9 years later, it may look different already). But if anyone can confirm where that photo was taken, it would be very good as I agree that it looks like an evening photo, a going out photo. If it was taken in Boquete then we know that Kris and Lisanne did not in effect write down everything they were doing there in their diary, or to their parents. That would further open the door for the Podcast theory, that they went out in Boquete or even went to a discotheque, as was mentioned.

@@scarletr.7753 In this photo I referred to, deduce that the time of this photo was around 6 pm (it could be a little before that time), because if you notice, those bright lights behind the girls, in the upper left part of Lisanne's head, it seems to have a little bit of natural light coming in, which could mean that it's right at the moment of transition from afternoon to night, when bars should turn on the brightest lights, assuming that establishment in question does not turn lights on during the day . This place seems to be more luxurious, they have a chandelier, sofas, more sophisticated furniture. They have everything to be in Boquete! Because in Bocas, the furniture and tables seem to be more rustic or dedicated to backgammon and card games. And this photo was taken by a third party! One way to find out would be to ask the Dutch guys if they know this place, or if they were the ones who took this photo of the moment 1min44s. Do you know how many days they spent in Bocas? Do the diaries show how many days they went to night? Or how many times did they NOT go into the night? I haven't read the diaries yet. Looking only at the photos that were clearly taken at night in Bocas, I already clearly noticed that they went out into the night, at 3 different times and on a fourth night, they seem to have stayed in the kitchen of the place where they stayed, having meals with several friends and local students. Nessa foto a qual me referi, deduzir que o horário dessa foto fosse por volta das 18 horas(pode ser um pouco antes desse horário), porque se você perceber, aquelas luzes fortes atrás das garotas, na parte superior esquerda da cabeça de Lisanne, parece ter um pouco de luz natural entrando, o que pode significar que seja bem no momento de transição da tarde para a noite, quando os bares devem ligar as luzes mais fortes, partindo do pressuposto de que estabelecimento em questão não liga luzes durante o dia. Esse lugar parece ser mais luxuoso, têm um lustre, sofás, móveis mais sofisticados. Têm tudo pra ser em Boquete! Porque em Bocas, os móveis e mesas parecem ser mais rústicos ou dedicado a jogos de gamão e cartas. E essa foto foi tirada por um terceiro! Uma forma de saber, seria perguntar para os rapazes holandeses, se eles conhecem esse lugar, ou se foram eles que tiraram essa foto do momento 1min44s. Você sabe quantos dias elas passaram em Bocas? Os diários mostram quantos dias elas foram pra noite? Ou quantas vezes NÃO foram para a noite? Ainda não li os diários. Olhando somente as fotos que claramente foram tiradas na noite em Bocas, já percebi claramente que elas saíram para a noite, em 3 momentos diferentes e em uma quarta noite, parecem ter ficado na cozinha do lugar onde se hospedaram, fazendo refeições com vários amigos e estudantes do lugar.

I wrote about it here on my blog: koudekaas.blogspot.com/2021/03/feeling-that-comes-over-you-when-you.html Scroll to the subheading ' *And then there is the dog Blue, who is from a family running a restaurant at the start of the Pianista trail'. The owners of the Il Pianista restaurant at the start of Pianista trail have told that story. They apparently talked to kris and Lisanne before they headed up the trail and their dog Blue went along with them. As he used to do more often with tourists. Then the dog came back down alone later on. Or so they say. But these people have a son who is part of the local gang, linked also the tour guide's son. They may have tried to create a false narrative for all we know. Because there is absolutely Zero evidence of Blue ever having been with kris and Lisanne. He has not been pictured once by them. His tail cannot be seen in any corner of any photo. But when Blue accompanied the parents of Kris during their reconstruction hike, he was near them and the other team members all the time. This was not a dog who walked dozens of meters ahead of humans. This probably indicates that Blue was not with Kris and Lisanne, in fact. It may be an important detail. Because had that dog been documented by Kris and Lisanne, they would have only had to follow it back home. Dogs know instinctively where to go and this one in particular, as he lived there and went up those trails all the time. But now we have to wonder: why did those owners put this story out in the press so early on? Was it to cement that narrative of Kris and Lisanne hiking up the Pianista but definitely never coming back down? Thus: 'they got lost'? I wonder if they lied.

​@scarletr.7753 Yes, I feel like the dog did not go with them that day, and I think it was on purpose. I think that the owners of the dog knew that somebody had been watching the girls and wanted to do something with/to them, something bad. Maybe it was the son and his gang, who had already put an eye on the girls when they initially got there? And saying that the dog (as you say) was with them and it came back without the girls was to consolidate the narrative that they somehow got lost. I believe that the locals know exactly what happened, but talking about it would damage the reputation of the country, and tourism, the main source of income of the country, would consequently stop/diminish in a very bad way for the locals.

Thanks for your nice comment. I do not know where the swimming photo came from. I do know it was leaked in a batch, together with the diary photos (which are legit) and the night photos (which proved to also be legit and the same photos which people like IP worked with). I have been told that it came straight from Osman's phone, and in the Panamanian press this was also communicated at the time of Osman's death; that police seized his phone and that photos of the missing Dutch women were found on it, reportedly. Various sources from Boquete also said this in tips to me and others but don't have the hard evidence that it came from Osman's phone. It may in fact come from someone else's phone. As or the 'Criss' link: as I understood it at the time, Criss was a contact but when checking her social media accounts, she appeared to be a different person. Possible calling Cressida or something, nicknamed Criss. I have no info that this swimming photo was stored under the title "Criss". Thanks for your insights and very interesting to read. I agree that if these podcast claims and Margarita's testimony can somehow be proven, it would blow the case wide open of course. Unfortunately the Dutch prosecution did put a Cold Case team on this case some years ago, in order to see if it needed reopening, but they decided against it. They did investigate that swimming photo and emailed to Juan that although they concluded it is a real (unphotoshopped) photo, it are not Kris and Lisanne but some other women that are in it. In their opinion. The identities of these supposed other women are unknown. It would help if we can find out for certain who leaked that photo and with who's phone it was taken, and when exactly. My bet is on Sunday March 30th or Monday the 31st. We would need CCTV footage ideally, or any type of forensic evidence pinning Kris and Lisanne to a discotheque or Cuervo's house or even the Caldera area, together with Osman, Murgas and probably also Henry or Edwin there. But when you realise that even the local supermarket's CCTV footage was overwritten before police could safeguard it (but AFTER police had told Ingrid about the footage, who published this), then there seems barely any chance that such similar (potential) footage still exists. But maybe there are more photos stored somewhere still, on phones of private citizens. Maybe there are videos of them, proving what actually happened. Yeh that got me chuckling all over again. Soap drama hero Pitti, clambering on hands and knees onto a hill, trying to find the Dutch girls. Then jabbering about the ordeal for years to come. It seems, going by her media performances lately, that it irks her that people criticize her great investigational work in this case. Maybe she will eventually throw someone under the bus, in order to get the praise and love she seems to crave? But I am not holding my breath for a complete U-turn from her. Too invested in the Lost narrative and besides, what would the boo authors think if it turns out they made a deal with a massive liar? Would they even care, you wonder $$.Yes I agree, precious time was wasted because police were dead set on a wilderness accident or disappearance. Nothing was treated as a potential crime scene and everything was trampled and muddled. From their personal bedroom (guide F. and Eileen, then the police, then a private photographer) to the locations of the remains; performed by locals from Alto Romero, by orders of the police, who had delegated the delicate work to locals. No gloves, no tape to seal anything off. Strange DNA and fingerprints of at least three people other than Kris and Lisanne were found on their belongings, but Pitti failed to ever link them scientifically to anyone. Mind you, the searchers never had to give off their own fingerprints either. No house searches of potential persons of interest. No phones were pinged. We have no idea where Kris and Lisanne were exactly in the days leading up to their disappearance. Who they interacted with. Which other mobile phones, of which people, lit up in the same location as their mobile phones, for instance. Never investigated. I don't think you can undo all that damage now. But maybe we will be surprised eventually, and evidence can still show up now.

Thanks.. Yeh I thought the old one was good to go still, but some people commented about the chronology and I then realised that photo #506 (which at the time I did not know the number of) was placed after photo #508. That was a guess at the time, but clearly a wrong one. Since that photo 508 and the one coming right after is so very important in fact for the timeline and the mystery of this case, it seemed too big an error to keep online. Oh well :)

@@scarletr.7753 , I must confess that I don't know the numbers of the pictures.

Yeh, Juan made some very good videos about this, trying to recreate the Mirador photos. Identifying the exact spots where they stood. It seemed as good as impossible. And we have to take the hair changes into account on top... I think the different skies in the background (all blue/almost completely clouded) may also be a giveaway that Kris and Lisanne could have returned to the summit and may have taken some more photos there. Now with their hair differently styled and with a very different cloud background. People ask: what would be the purpose of a 3rd party to shuffle the photo order like that? I'd say: because otherwise people would have realised that they did not keep walking on and on beyond the Mirador, but in fact tried to return to Boquete again. Given that the entire Pianista trail was checked top to bottom and back up again, also with dogs, we can therefore be certain they had no accident there, leaving the door wide open for a foul play scenario.

These are photshopped. I studied this extensively and I know those are photoshopped by Henry. Some of the tour guides even gave photoshop tutorials … with models wearing the murdered girls shirts. They’re sick!

@@scarletr.7753 The sky seems to match up, the camera is just pointing in different directions. You see some clouds in the left side of the picture with the blue sky so if the cloudy picture was taken pointing further that direction that would make sense. 501 shows the clouds starting to break on the right side which matches 502's clouds on the left

@@Reloading20 Hi, yes you can connect photos such as 501 and 502 together, by connecting them at the exact same mountain shape in the background. Kris did take a few steps to the right for picture 502. There are 4 seconds between the two official photo times. But the skies look very different. If you connect those photos through the right overlap, you see thick clouds on the left and near blue sky on the right. It is possible that this was the actual situation at that moment, and that those thick grey clouds simply came rolling in from one side, with a super thin overlap to the blue skies. But I am of the opinion that when looking at the sequence, some of the photos could have been taken at another moment in time entirely (and that would imply messing with EXIF data, I realise that). Opinions will differ on this one. See here: blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgmyJcswGXrIqSfhInA62ORkHKgXuIP7tnqUsZ3dlSPdUXutSnb8U62KjpLo8c8TyeUCbT3btj7kqrGIpih9vWd6Jt5Lj3Q-2uZSFzzuNFvW_fV6pxVHOenZCzL6tjvtjJ_sqEiY1JzFN6xkGlxYWRHd-y4xL0VJzaTxByEt5f4RRtJMHRb-RI5js8k=w806-h79

I was disappointed that they did not bring up the swimming photo, tbh. It is a verified legit photo, according to the Dutch NFI. It shows Osman and Murgas. It shows Kris and Lisanne (I am certain of that at least). Why didn't they ask Margarita about it? 'Is that your son?' 'Why did he tell you that he only saw Kris and Lisanne once, in a red truck of Edwin on the market square? When in fact he went swimming with these girls?' - That would also create a much more reliable motive for his killing. More reliable at least than him only seeing the gang with the girls in a parked car. Smoking some weed.

And you Scarlet R, also thanks for staying here and keeping us up to date. We are all waiting for the perpetrators to be arrested….. hopefully SOON!

Atancio may clean up well but she’s a “reporter” for MSNBC. nuff said there.

@badofi Yep, well said. I do not buy Osman's story to his mum that he just saw Kris and Lisanne once, in passing, while they were seated on the backseat of Edwin's red pickup truck, in town. No, he must have seen Kris and Lisanne before or later and I think he was dragged into this entire mess and that is why he was so nervous and anxious and besides himself in the days before his murder. Margarita told those details in the local newspaper just days after he died, so I trust that recollection. But Osman may have downplayed to his mum just how much he knew and had seen. I don't think he was involved in their killing, but I do think he saw a hell of a lot more than he told her. And he would certainly have seen them properly and even got to know them if that swimming photo is the real deal.

@@scarletr.7753 This is exactly what I just spent the past hour detailing to you by way of reply on a different thread. Anyhow we are definitely looking in the same corners

Of course they do. Lisanne took them to explain the accident and it was the goodbye message.

@@markusmaier2277 why wait 7/8 days though? I’m not arguing please, just questions

​@@alexharvey1787Someone (the killer or killers) do that to confuse investigations

'They just don’t make sense' On the face of it, no. But if you think on the fact the over two and a half hours of photography there are dozens taken of rain, distant trees, and some rock, there is but *one* picture of Kris (hair), *one* of that 'Boulder' and the marker, and *one* of that SoS display, then you have to wonder whether this is a list of things to do... you got your picture of Kris' hair (extreme close-up), her hair is instantly recognisable, which seem to be the point... you get two more pictures showing an SoS situation, and so a 'story' is told on the camera. ------------------------------ If Lisanne is Lost, her friend ill or even deceased, is this _limited_ a record of her situation that night really the best she could do...? If she was recording for posterity, the camera has a video/audio function. One extreme close-up of her friends hair says absolutely nothing. But what it does say, if you are _not_ Lisanne taking this photo, is that this IS Kris Kremers here.... and she and 'lisanne' are lost, as shown by the SoS display etc.

@@davidmullen6011 if you are too weak to even talk anymore, thats the way to explain the accident. Tragic that they never found back or were found

Добро пожаловать!

Yeah because he is innocent.

I personally feel that the night photos are purposely cryptic silliness, taken by a third party. No way would either of the girls have remained 'lost' a week later then started taking pictures in the middle of the night, none of which show either of them alive or what happened to them. And no last messages, explanations etc on WhatsApp, SMS etc. It would have been far easier to just turn the video function on instead of all those night photos. Someone else was playing games there, I'm sure. 👍

We can't be sure that Kris and Lisanne made those twigs on sticks. If you accept that narrative you also have to accept that they chose to not use their digital camera for an entire week. That they chose to take 100 or so super vague, super repetitive photos in the span of a couple of nightly hours, but abstained from taking a single photo during daytime, to document their location or ordeal. To me, that makes very little sense and of course people can twist themselves in all sorts of distortions to explain it away (' too afraid', ' too busy' (with what?), ' did not want to scare their parents') but it still makes no sense. Why no draft message left on their phones? Why no video shot on their digital camera with plenty of battery life? Why not a single attempt to try to call Miriam or their parents? Why knowingly drain Lisanne's phone battery overnight on day 2-3, but not using it for anything worthwhile in the process? Why wouldn't they have left behind signs with sticks on the ground if they were out there alone, 'lost'? Why couldn't an army of trained specialists, who say they never before failed to find missing hikers in that region, find even a single clue or belonging of them? All suddenly found by locals, 10 weeks later. Very suspicious.

@@lyndoncmp5751 May I suggest a quick examination of the 2001 Jason Rasmussen case? Minnesota. He got lost in the BACWA and his behavior is precisely what we all presume Kris & Lisanne would’ve done. Frankly the deeper one examines this case the more the idea that they survived 8-11 nights of sheer terror and somehow avoided hypothermia falls apart spectacularly

@@behindthespotlight7983 Thanks for that. I wasn't aware of that case. I just read up on it now. Very interesting. 😲 👍

@@scarletr.7753 So so true, Scarlet !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Juan Parea y Monsuwe did a study in that very thing on his channel. And recently too.

"I know a lot of people won't see what I'm seeing" Well I tried and tried but..... I can't see what you're seeing. ☺

​@@lyndoncmp5751 😂😉👍.

Im sorry Elias. I tried!! ☺

@@lyndoncmp5751 What screen did you use? Your smartphone screen? A 15-inch computer screen? Or a bigger TV? I used a 32-inch TV, if I'm not mistaken. Another thing: Look up close and far away, step back up to four meters and look at it from different angles, see it in all these different colors that Scarlet used. Don't just use the zoom. Just remembering that I'm also speculating, I'm not 100% sure. Also do not forget that the "face" of photo 580 may be distorted due to the phenomenon of gaseous swelling suffered by a corpse, or the face may have lost its bilateral symmetry due to possible violent aggressions. I'm assuming there was violence and murder. I'll try to make you see an aspect that I noticed, and that in my opinion is the key for us to know if that person under Kris's hair is Lisanne or not. Que tela você utilizou? A tela do seu smartphone?A tela de um computador de 15 polegadas? Ou de uma TV maior? Eu utilizei uma TV de 32 polegadas, se não estiver enganado. Outra coisa: Olhe de perto e de longe, se afaste até uns quatro metros e observe de vários ângulos, veja em todas essas várias cores que Scarlet utilizou. Não use somente o zoom. Apenas lembrando que eu também estou especulando, não tenho certeza 100%. Não se esqueça também que o "rosto" da foto 580, pode está distorcido devido ao fenômeno de inchaço gasoso sofrido por um cadáver, ou ainda, o rosto pode ter perdido sua simetria bilateral devido a possíveis agressões violentas. Estou partindo do pressuposto de que houve violência e assassinato. Vou tentar fazer você ver um aspecto que percebi, e que na minha opinião é a chave para sabermos se essa pessoa abaixo dos cabelos de Kris, é Lisanne ou não.

I'm from Belgium close neighbors and i have followed both these girls parents on the case. I believe Lisanne her parents accepted quite quickly this was a case of them being lost. Kris her parents however did not and went further into it believing there was foul play here, they went there all the way and walked it themselves. Came back and 1 other search party from the netherlands came there to check the trail and paths. After awhile Kris her parents took a conclusion and agreed with the other parents that this was 99% sure a case of them being lost and dying from the brutal elements a jungle is gonna give you. I have studied it good now and i ain't entirely sure but i find a them being lost theory more plausible then a third part involved. Some people truly do not understand how easy it is to get lost in a jungle, hell i have gotten lost off track and it was big local park, imagine a freaking jungle? Also from what i have seen, they were not prepared at all whatsoever. They started the journey with they phones a bit above 50% no, plus they were not experienced hikers at all whatsoever. even experienced hikers get lost in places like that. I do not understand why them being murdered is more likely? Why the pictures? to make it look like they where lost? They didn't have to do all of that. If they were murdered they could have simply done nothing and they still would have ended up as a they got lost case. If they cut them in pieces, why lay a boot with a foot still in it out in the open to be found to then give a doctor a chance to say ooh they got murdered because this was cut clean off? I find that all hard to believe. They went off trail and it does not take much to lose it trust me. Taking a pee a few hundreds meters is way more then enough to not make it back. I believe the pictures is them hearing a helicopter search party after a week and taking the camera to point the light up so they could possibly be seen. Sure in both ways a few questions are left unanswered but i have way more questions with foul play

@@kenzopeypers738 I agree you can get lost very easily, event with GPS it can be hard to get back on track. Happend to me a few times. But if you get lost and you walk for days into the jungle away from any trail I doubt that anybody would find your remains. So if nobody ever would have found anything from them I would buy the lost story. The way the backpack was found and the way the remains were found I really think someone did want to get the reward. But we never will know. And it's up to everyone to believe the official story or not.

All these photos were taken by Kris and Lisanne, either with their phones or digital camera. But the swimming photo was not. It was leaked later on and Osman is pictured too, so he could not have been the photographer. The Dutch NFI Forensic institute analysed the swimming photo and have declared that it is a real photo and that it was not photoshopped, but that two other women are pictured in the photo. They did not share who these women are . I don't believe them, I see 100% Kris and Lisanne's faces in this photo..

@@scarletr.7753 I think the Dutch girls were swimming NAKED. What do you see here ? Are they too outrageous ?

I've been fascinated/haunted since 2019. Trust me, it doesn't leave you. 😕

@@lyndoncmp5751 i believe you, i listened to the story via a podcast, it was'nt until i googled the photos they kept referring too in the podcast, changed it all for me, really wish i did'nt google them tbh...just a horrible end for them, they did'nt deserve that...i think they got lost, and not the murder theory...

@@andrew-ju9tt Did you listen to the 7 part podcast that Scarlet talked about and linked to, a couple of videos before this one? It's well worth it. About 7 hours in total but a number of eye opening revelations. It will change your mind on them getting lost. Most of the locals are certain they were murdered. There has even been an alleged confession. Cheers 👍.

@@lyndoncmp5751 i did yes, twice...this is the podcast i mentioned...ive consumed so much info on this case, probably an unhealthy amount tbh that i believe they left the trail , dont know why, got lost, being in panic mode, cold, hungry, and sleep deprived, made poor choices which ultimately led to their death...many things dont add up, which i think leads to stories, half truths etc being born in a small community, i could be very wrong, but its where i am right now...i know its hind sight , but i wish they put that helicopter up at night, maybe even a phone torch could be seen flying at low level, and we know now they had a camera flash...they went from a holiday heaven into hell, so cruel to 2 young people who didnt deserve it🙏

@@andrew-ju9tt Hmmm but there's no evidence they left the trail at any time. Every single picture taken that day shows them squarely on the trail. They were clearly not ones to go exploring off trail. We know this from their photos. If they'd have left the trail (you have to leave the trail deliberately, you can't by accident because the trail is clearly defined) they would definitely have taken pictures of this interesting new area to explore. Lisanne took pictures of their entire hike. I cannot see them leaving the trail deliberately and willingly. They were not dressed to go off trail into the forest with shorts and singlets on. It would have been very uncomfortable. A helicopter wouldn't have helped because they were with a third party sadly. Undoubtedly so. I don't think they made poor choices. They weren't stupid young woman. The only (in hindsight) wrong choice they made was to decide to walk on a bit further beyond the Mirador, after they had made it to the Mirador summit in good time and were still feeling fresh and fit. Then after picture 508 a third party came along and events were out of their control. All the evidence points to foul play, unfortunately. Cheers.

I think so too 📸

It's a deliberate shot, some time was taken to arrange and compose it, and photography then continued immediately thereafter. So we can say that it was something the person taking these photographs _very_ intentionally took... If this were Lisanne Why then take a close-up shot of the back of your friends head, a shot that shows absolutely nothing, other that to perhaps note Kris is also here? It makes no sense whatsoever. People argue that this is her making some record of her situation by that night, but if you are making a record why so vague? Why just the one shot of the Branch on the boulder, the SoS display, and an extreme close-up of Kris' hair - one shot of each, and dozens of non-descript shots of distant trees and glimpses of rock. Why are there not _several_ shots of these? The photography is taking place over two and a half hours, but not one shot of yourself coming into view, and just that one inconclusive shot of Kris' hair. It doesn't ring true. This is a record alright, but I am hard pressed to think Lisanne is the one here doing it...

Hi Elizabeth, yes I covered that podcast on my blog: koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-travel-channel-episode-on-kris-and.html) and here on youtube (part 1: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-wiuCAUSY5DI.html part 2: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-wiuCAUSY5DI.html

Because they believed to be found until the end, and wanted to save battery. Occams razor says accident.

@@markusmaier2277 Occam's razor is an interpretative model. It says nothing specifically about this case. It depends on a ton of variables and also on subjective estimates of what is logical. And don't forget to let go of 1st world/western notions about what is logical and common in a place like Panama. People from that country or even from that continent overwhelmingly believe this was a straight up case of Crime. Not accident.

@@scarletr.7753 believe is no evidence. Stop that scam

@@markusmaier2277 Occams scissors disagrees.

I do.

Yes, a horrible French case. Looks like he killed his entire family and Xavier is still on the run now.

@@scarletr.7753 I m pretty sure is dead. Everything was planned, from the killings to his own death.

They are not. They did it to themselves, sadly

@@markusmaier2277 what are you talking about?

@@Jordysegs89 I talk about them going too far and then having an accident. Thats what happened.

@@markusmaier2277 it wasn’t an accident! These two were murdered! The tour guide and everyone in that town know something!

@@Jordysegs89 Bullshit. There is zero evidence for that. Watch Pat Browns video on the case, plus Dark Vanishings.

It is strange indeed. And Kris and Lisanne originally wanted to go to Costa Rica, instead of Panama... But Lisanne's parents had bad vibes about that place. Another tragic detail. Sometimes life just ends because of a string of bad coincidences or decisions :( I watch true crime programs a lot and now that you mention it: 2014 was a bad year in that respect. Many crazy and tragic murder cases in 2014.

Hi, you can find all the known photos from their camera here on my blog: koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-disappearance-of-kris-kremers-and_11.html There are more photos, but the people who have copies of them won't all publish them. Not sure why not. Some of the night photos that were not leaked or released show 'nothing but darkness'. And nothing of interest or new when brightened in photoshop. 581 is one such unpublished photo. People who viewed them all confirmed 581 shows nothing really, just darkness and bulbs in the sky like many of the other night photos do. Same for 579 probably. I wished I had all those copies and could upload them all.

@@scarletr.7753 I ask because we need to know if 580 was deliberate or not. Most of the photos look like someone is just crazily snapping nothing, everything is blurry because the camera is moving. But suddenly there's this one photo of Kris's hair that appears so deliberate and focussed. According to the timestamps, 579 was 97 seconds before 580, and 581 was taken only 9 seconds later, and is just another crazy photo. I don't understand why the photographer would stop in the middle to take this one deliberate photo, then immediately go back to the crazy blurry photos. It doesn't add up, and makes me think the night photos have been rearranged like the day photos. Or, it just puts more suspicion that it was a killer, perhaps fascinated by her 'exotic' blonde hair.

It was possible back in 2014. Unfortunately the Panamanian prosecutor killed the case and investigation on purpose. And people who do know more haven't all spoken out yet....

not really, its simple, they got lost and died. the phone evidence tells you all you need to know. the murder/abduction theories are laughable. you people are just bored looking for the most extreme explanations when most often it is the simplest answer that is correct.

@@toddbirchall3922 And another simplistic one, lmao. I have a bridge I`d like to sell you at a bargain price, a really simple transaction, you`ll love it because it`s very simple.🤣🤣🤣

Oh thanks, the past few weeks I have worked on videos about the new podcast series, they are up here on this channel as well :)

Thanks, will check that video out. I personally don't see faces of other people hidden in the background or the dark in these photos... Juan and I studied them for a long time, brightened them, changed all sorts of settings, but it is most likely due to pareidolia that people see faces lurking in the background?

Do you have the video link?

Seems to me that the 'skeptical' experts in the podcast were those not directly involved in the case and had no first hand input. Those directly involved, including almost all of the locals, generally seem to be of the foul play opinion. 👍

@@lyndoncmp5751 So true. A Western expert may have a hard time fathoming the scope of the disturbing reality of murders and disappearances in that small area, and may very well be protecting their own mind and emotions as well.

@@dianathomas2674 Could be the case yes. They could also not want to appear to be rocking the boat against the 'official' conclusion or maybe didn't want to get themselves dragged down into the rabbit hole of foul play and then ending up being referenced and cited forevermore ( "so and so said this"). I do feel that the experts not directly involved and without first hand knowledge of the case shouldn't be listened to over and above those who were. They are just outside opinions really. 👍

@@lyndoncmp5751 So true!

Bullshit.

Yes that would be plausible, _if_ it were the only strange activity with the devices, but the sheer number of outré occurrences in the use if the devices mounts up to a powerful circumstantial case for a double homicide.

That appears to just be a loop of hair that resembles an eye

Watch Dark Vanishings

Good points that you have made. As a black haired non-blond male, I agree that the relative success of white Anglo-Nordics since the time of the VOC and EIC have led to a strange fascination with Anglo-Nordic-ism among the non-Western global south. Maybe the disapperance had nothing to do with local men at all but right from the start, it was assumed the girls could be targeted. Perhaps this was why Guide F made noise and wanted very much to locate these girls. The worst case scenario would be for the girls to turn up dead with clear signs of being murdered. Interest in the case may be due to some observers using the girls as symbolic placeholders to highlight some not-very-nice realities in the non-western world.

Show me a photo of that ravine.

@@Sandoz-tq7qj What do you mean? There are plenty of pics by Lisanne which are the message and explanation of the accident.

Can you tell us the precise time in the video when you see this and explain where exactly in the image?

Are you mental?

What photo?

The video of the blondes blonde hair from the back and so the other girl did not snap that picture ! as I turned the pic sideways and I see thru the blonde hair the other girl ! her eyes and brunette hair and I see a mouth lips nose face facial features I see the other girls eyes plain as I see day ! They both are together like the blonde was just layed beside the brunette both heads beside each other but blonde face down so this is why you see the brown hair mixed into the blondes hair !

@@nono-wo9ky There is nothing to see. You are looney

Hi, yes I read about Joran's admission too. After the case was expired... It was a breakthrough when Peter R de vries secretly taped Joran's confession in that car. Was it Peter? I vaguely remember the footage of him secretly being taped in that car, while admitting and boasting. Utterly rotten and disgusting piece of sh*t. Also trying to blackmail the poor family of Natalee. Just rotten to the core. His dad professed his son's innocence until the end I believe? Absurd eh? Anyone could see that the man was lying and a total emotionless psychopath. Her disappearance happened when Kris and Lisanne were around 13 years old. Maybe it didn't register with them to the extent it did with people slightly older? I am of about natalee's age and my sisters and I did follow that case at the time. It was a huge deal in the Netherlands, absolutely. Murder in paradise. But Kris and Lisanne may not have experienced it like that, being slightly younger. And in 2014 the whole instagram madness was already in full swing. Influencers shooting glam footage of themselves from tropical locations. I mean going by those people's glossy updates, you wouldn't even think Mexico is a dangerous place. I do wonder in how far these influencers and wanderlust types (using views to subsidize and sponsor their luxury world trips) play a small role in the seemingly naive trips youngsters make nowadays. You even find them shooting beauty shots with drones and all in IRAN nowadays. Totally clueless. Not saying that Panama was too risky a destination, but sadly enough the parents believed Costa Rica (their first plan) was a dangerous destination, and they changed it to Panama.... Hard not to imagine how things could have gone differently if they had stuck to Costa Rica.

@@scarletr.7753 Thanks for replying. Regarding the situation south of the border, Panama, in some ways, is still viewed in more +ve terms in the developed West due to the Panama Canal, in a way Aruba is seen as good as the Netherlands. In the photo sequence, there is one presumably taken on Sunday evening Mar 30 by a 3rd party presumably at some kind of night spot. Despite the various suggested scenarios, this photo hardly gets noticed until recently. In front of Kris wass what looked like a wine glass with red wine. The night photo showed their earlier bras were still being worn. Not sure why they changed outer clothing but not the underwear. Imperfect Plan answered through r/Kremersfroon that there were more photos of them at Boquete but no reliable time stamp. If these unleaked photos showed them with the same type of clothing worn at Bistro de Boquete, then it certainly showed they were at Boquete, no running off to elsewhere. But Imperfect Plan stayed silent on this, indicating there was no photo proof they were only at Boquete in the afternoon. The Sunday evening photo showed a change of clothes, somewhat a bit older/ligher/faded than the Bistro clothing, suggesting the change of clothing was not planned but a later decision. Did they go to some further location, then turning back to the hostel, then to Fusion Restaurant and then to the night spot? (From Google Photos, the night spot was not Fusion Restaurant) Another possible timeline was going back to the hostel, had a change of clothing, went to another location before ending up at Boquete again in the evening. I somehow think if it was them in swim photo, it could be they changed into the faded clothing with their bikinis underneath and brought their underwear along.

@@fortpark-wd9sx Interesting. Yes that photo at 01:44 of them inside a cafe or bar or sorts is a picture that seems to always get overlooked. I am guilty of this as well! But thanks for highlighting that photo. It may perhaps link to this claim from Verísimo Fuentes that Kris and Lisanne were seen in a nightclub with Tito, aka Henry, and his friends on Sunday the 30th of March. So two nights before they went missing. Although I don't see wine in front of Kris. More likely a soft drink or perhaps a cocktail of sorts? They also wear clothes which were not seen in any of their other photos taken in Boquete. This also could indicate that this photo was not taken on the Sunday afternoon in town, but indeed in the evening. It is hard to make out if there is daylight streaming in on the left of Lisanne's head, or not. But they may have been out in town there. And WHO is taking that photograph...? Not they themselves. Or perhaps this photo was not taken in Boquete after all, but in Bocas. As I understand it, it was taken in Boquete, but only people who possess all the camera photos and all the exif data will be able to confirm this for a fact. Thanks for that info about IP. I wished people would publish all those photos. All eyes may see more than just a handful of pairs of eyes. But good thinking on your part, valid questions. I find it hard to fit in that swimming photo. And to be honest: some people I highly respect seem to dismiss the validity of that photo altogether. It seems that barely anyone takes it serious, in fact. Meh... Shame.

​ @fortpark-wd9sx **OH wait, I do see the wine glass now right from Kris on the table 👀🙄

@@scarletr.7753 Nice to hear from you again. Regarding the El Pianista trail photos, it probably would not show anything new. According to known info, these unreleased photos were more of the same. Probably no photo of Leonardo's taxi. The Boquete photos might be potentially controversial. Perhaps not just of them sitting around Spanish School or the hostel. One nightspot photo, although hardly noticed for almost 10 years, was enough to raise questions. A few more of such photos at different locations, perhaps with different persons, could lead to more arguments. I agreed a Mar 30 swim was plausible in terms of available time but how it fitted into the whole chronology would be a problem. I sometimes wondered whether a Mar 29 swim was possible when they were still in the "Bocas del Toro beachfront mood". The journey to Boquete and unpacking at the hostel would have taken some time but nothing to show it was the whole morning to evening. Mar29-30 was never really discussed or investigated in detail since it was considered of no direct significant relevance to the disapperance. The interest usually started from Mar 31. If (I repeat only "if") there were photos of them with T-shirt and shorts with bikinis underneath as of Mar 29, then that could be of interest.🙄

Maybe they tried to lit up a fire

Possible for sure. It looks to be inside somewhere, possibly in the evening. It would be so interesting to find out where that photo was taken and at which day and time. It could be proof of them having gone out in the evening. I know that Fusion was frequented by Plinio. Who was working there?

The camera was set to London time (GMT), which was six hours ahead of Panama on April 1st of 2014. Kris and Lisanne seem to have never adjusted the time when arriving in Panama and neither did they change its 2013 setting to 2014. According to the EXIF data of the photos, the Pianista photos were taken between roughly 11.00 am and 14.00 pm Panamanian time, but on their camera it showed as 17.00 - 20.00 pm roughly speaking. As for the swimming photo; I do believe it to be real, but am struggling how to fit it into the known timeline. I am leaning more towards that swimming event having taken place on Sunday or Monday afternoon already tbh. And that they met these locals guys there (not just Osman and Murgas, but also Edwin - who may have taken that photo - and Henry). And that on April 1st, they were intercepted on the Pianista, or stalked and kidnapped. Or perhaps went along voluntarily, but ended up in a troubling situation at the location where they were taken.

@@kerprice Yeh but the guy who makes the video is a jerk. Sorry to say. He plundered all my videos to make his own and when I and others asked him in the comments to simply add a source link below his video, linking to my work as the source for over half his videos, he blocked me and deleted the comments. Sorry, I don't want to promote his work here therefore, just too rude a person. His theory links to what is told by various people in the podcast series, although it differs a little bit. He mentions a source in Costa Rica I believe it was and it was an ex girlfriend of one of the lads from the local gang. The only thing we ever heard about this in public, is Pitti once referring to a witness in Costa Rica. But she never said more and we don't know if this is the same person.

@@scarletr.7753 I'm sorry, you really have the most comprehensive blog I've ever read. Do you have a podcast series too?

@@kerprice Thanks! No it is Jeremy Kryt who made a podcast series a few months ago, with some jaw dropping revelations. You can find it here:kastmedia.com/podcasts/lost-in-panama/ I summarized the findings on my blog, here: koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-travel-channel-episode-on-kris-and.html And also covered it in two (long) videos here on my channel. Part 1: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-z5s1tuNz4G8.html and part 2: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-wiuCAUSY5DI.html

8 days in the jungle, no food, no clean water, no where to sleep, its not hard hard to understand that lisanne wasnt in the sharpest frame of mind at this point. stop over analyzing everything, they got lost and died. poor things. rip ❤️

I suspect the same, unfortunately..

Are you really her true cousin?

These girls have returned to the starting point and then someone saw them get into a red truck. If this is true, then who owns that red truck? The Panama Police never mentioned anything about this "evidence" 🕵‍♂

@@Sandoz-tq7qj The red pickup truck belonged to Edwin Aguirre, the son of the owners of the Sabrosón restaurant they ate at. Edwin Aguirre was in the truck with the girls, Sam Downer, Henry Gonzalez and Jose Murgas. This was the statement of Osman Valenzuela to his mother Margarita, before he died suspiciously 3 days after the girls went missing.

@@kennethmacalpin7655 South of the US border femicide is very prevalent unfortunately. This was organized I believe, with many people co operating.

@@user-hi2bb9hk2k I subscribe to the theory that it was a small gang of friends who killed them impulsively rather than something highly organised like trafficking.

@@kennethmacalpin7655 I think the young people are just hired or trying to climb the ranks in their gangs. Sophisticated organizations will use children or teenagers to do things like this (murder, hiding a body) because they are easily manipulated and if caught given light prison sentences due to their age. Thanks for the reply

@badofi there were a lot of pictures, but parents didn't want to show them. Coz they agreed with the idea of being lost

I think so too. Those red plastic bags were very common there at the time, as many shops gave them with their products

But the taxi driver changed his story over time and the 1.30 pm time makes no sense. If that is true, then all the Pianista photos must have been manipulated time-wise, and had their EXIF data altered by someone. The sun's angle was also determined to have matched the 11 am start of the hike. Leonardo was nervous and not happy to talk to police, so he may have had reason to lie about certain details. Also: do you mean to say that Kris and Lisanne would have deleted file 509 themselves? In the jungle? That is ruled out basically, as manual deletion of the photo with the cameras deletion option would not have actually deleted the file completely. Forensic specialists determined it must have been removed with the help of a computer and they clearly did not have that option out there in the woods...

@@scarletr.7753 I appreciate you taking the time to read my theory and welcome the fact that you are challenging and questioning it. While I am leaning towards the idea of them getting lost, I acknowledge that the mystery remains open for discussion. Your thoughts, efforts, and videos are highly impressive and valued.

Not her in my view. Kris has finer and lighter hair with less of a curl.

As this is a selfie its Kris Arm. You can also see it as a reflection in Kris sunglasses.

@@peterdoring7521 I'm not talking about the arm, I'm talking about the red reflection in the edge of Lisanne's sunglasses. One of the lines of inquiry was a red pickup truck and I'm wondering if that's it.

@@kennethmacalpin7655 Ah, sorry, now I see what you mean. This is indeed a strong reddish spot but I don´t think it´s the reflection of the red car which you mean (maybe Lisannes elbow?) although when I look at Kris sunglasses the shadows have the shape of a car. But: the red car was not the car that brought them there in the morning (driven by Leonardo who died the following year). The other shadows in the pic indicate that the sun is in a high position so I expect this pic was taken in the beginning of the hike and not during their return when they met their killers. They also look not tired.

@@peterdoring7521 They were taken to La Pianista by Leonardo (RIP) in his taxi, but witnesses saw a red pickup truck pull into the entrance of La Pianista after they were dropped off. Osman Valenzuela (RIP) told his mother Margarita he'd seen Kris and Lisanne in Edwin Aguirre's red pickup truck on March 31st, and that's why Edwin Aguirre's gang wanted to kill him, because he was a witness to their association with the girls.

I believe that circled photo was used in a discussion about the bra strap matching the found bras.

@@scarletr.7753 what is your theory.?? Do you believe the girls took the night photos? If they didn't how do u think the side of lisannes face is in the photos. Xxx

​@@larvin6910they are died in the photos of 8 april Somebody was playing with their camera

Thanks. I see what you're meaning about the red shade behind Kris' head (or her lookalikes' head). The photo quality is unfortunately poor and the pixel situation is not good. Which also seems to affect the way the arms and reflections in the water are looking. Some will say they look distorted. The rock in the background seems to have a reddish tinge as well, which isn't helping. You could be right. But I cannot see another person precisely. Just a reddish blob. I know that some people believe it is a photoshopped photo. It is just hard to be sure. I believe it are Osman, Jose, Kris and Lisanne and that all four were dead by january 2015. But we cannot be 100% sure of this, at this point in time.. I agree with you on the logics behind the use of universal hand signs, when in a foreign country. Absolutely. Hence why there is still suspicion that Kris and Lisanne may have not been alone on the Mirador, when they took photos making a thumbs up sign - something they do not make in any of their other holiday photos and something which the local lads there do make regularly in photos. I know nobody in the Netherlands, honestly, who takes photos with their thumbs up. With the exception perhaps of 5 year olds after achieving something.

@@badofi I agree, well said. The only reasonable explanation in my view is that these are two different women. But when you compare some known photos of Kris and Lisanne with these two women in the grainy swimming photo, the similarities (in my view) are stunning: 1.bp.blogspot.com/-hoN7h-jtIiE/YNy6QnsFOcI/AAAAAAAAHts/IMbPiviti0o-M0fRUhUe4bTkuSufJJAbwCLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h566/z%2Bcomparisons.jpg And this swimming photo was leaked in a larger batch, including the night photos and the diary pictures, which were all legit case evidence. Suggesting this swimming photo is also linked to the case. There had been word in the street also, so to speak, about photos of Osman with two young women including a redhead. And that police covered up those photos. It is all a bit too coincidental. But the case officials stated that this is a non-photoshopped photo BUT that it shows two different women. And others who researched this case believe it is a photoshopped photo and Kris and Lisanne have been clumsily added into it. I think we truly see osman, Jose Manuel and Kris and Lisanne though, and should wonder who took this photo. And why

@@scarletr.7753 I took another look at the photo, and I think you're right. I now believe, the red glow is caused by an arm lifted up by the boy on the left. I have been thinking. The story goes, that Osman's mom told a story, that could be true. I know, the case is closed, but is there a possibility to take a polygraph test from Osman's mom, voluntarily, by some private detective, just to see, if what she told is true?

@@ioeee7563 No officials in either Panama or the Netherlands are interested in this case anymore. Or in dragging it back open. I don't think they are planning or even willing to test Margarita. They all ignored the podcast and its claims

'The brown "ground" or "rocks" that I thought are clearly the walls of that ditch looking up at the rainy sky.' I've thought that there might be a channel edge, an embankment, visible on the far left of that photograph of the rockface, but the resolution and light is so poor I have to accept it may be my imagination and a trick of the poor lighting. One thing that lends weight to the idea though is that this rockface (or is it ground surface as you say?) is bare and clean - it looks as if it has been kept clean by running water, perhaps having dried up given the lack of rain in that ear and a recognised drought that season.... But a confusing feature is that it is fairly clear that the person taking these images is sheltered, and intentionally sheltering from the rain. I find this really interesting to think on, because as you say it had to be close to pitch black at this hour, and in these conditions, so whoever is handling the camera here is surely as dry as Kris appears to be. So the question is - did Lisanne and Kris come across this spot, see its potential as a sheltered camp, and set up here? But then why is Kris apparently comatose throughout it all, or maybe even dead? And just where can this spot be given the area between the last photograph on April 1st and the discovery of the shorts at the second bridge restricts its location into being within quite a small area in terms of geography...

I think it is. Here is the full photo that allows you to zoom in: 1.bp.blogspot.com/-2cQko96ap30/XjSVyt7vudI/AAAAAAAABuE/pVkQU6dlIbkyaraUNH48ZIoVh-KZ69MtQCLcBGAsYHQ/s640/IMG_0458_vs_IMG_nacht%2B%25282%2529.png

@@scarletr.7753 Okay thanks. I'm not 100% sure but maybe it could be it. In that case maybe that could support an accident theory although there are still so many weird aspects about it that make me think it was foul play.

@@drae6984 When you zoom right in, the red square and the things listed below it seem to match. But we can't be 100% sure based on online photos of course. Those maps may have been widely available; they may have been in their backpack and used by a 3rd party for a staged scene while taking the night photos. We don't even know if anyone gave Kris and Lisanne that map on Sunday. Say, someone linked to the group who is claimed to have been responsible for their deaths. I'm afraid there isn't too much we can conclude from this match

At least 11 days, considering the iPhone was manually powered on and off on day 11. But as long as water is available, humans can survive for months without food. Strictly speaking.

@@scarletr.7753 Yeah, if you are overweight its easy. Unfortunately the girls had no survival kit and tools

@@markusmaier2277 You think they starved to death within 11 days? In a jungle that is full of food sources? Food you do not need a tool for to find. Even those poor Colombian kids under age 14 survived in the Amazon for 40 days. Without survival kits. They were far less well fed to start with than the two Dutch women.

@@scarletr.7753 lol full of food. There is no food at all, even if there were fish in the rivers, how would they get them? They not even had a knife

@@markusmaier2277 Of all possible places in the wild where someone can get lost, surely a jungle ranks among the most food providing. Not thinking of McDonald's stores, but mosquitoes, worms, insects, fruits and of course water. There have been other stories, even recently, of people lost in jungles who managed to survive on insects. 'There is no food at all' is completely incorrect.

You can ask Imperfect Plan to release them. They have the remaining ones in their possession, as I understand it. Same for certain magpie style authors. And there are more people who have copies of all the photos. Not sure why they do not publish them tbh. Anything given to Juan was published by him though, much to the chagrin of some.

@@scarletr.7753 Ops!

I’ve given tremendous thought to the unreleased photos angle. Now this is just me licking my finger and sticking it in the breeze but given how obviously unsatisfied the Kremers are with the investigation, were there photos that dispelled the efforts of thousands of citizen investigators worldwide, (think: pics that slam the murder theory door shut) one has to believe they would’ve at least made statements accordingly. Plus no one talks much about pics from their phones that we’ve never seen. Were there trauma pics they’d likely be on whichever phone was in-hand at the moment. They were 21st Century girls. They’d go for their phones long before grabbing a camera that’s packed in a case.

@@behindthespotlight7983 Yeh and also, Imperfect Plan had insight in all the photos, as well as the case files. They have been very meticulous and reliable so far and shared details and descriptions of the few photos that have not been shared in the public domain yet. They are the least interesting ones of the bunch, in particular the dark night photos. I believe them. And the Kremers have fought for years for justice and hired a lawyer to oppose Pitti and the Panamanian prosecution. Hans Kremers vented in interviews at the time how unpleasant it was for him to be muzzled by the Panamanians, unable to share details about the phones and camera initially, being threatened that it would otherwise hinder 'the investigation'. In the end, the Kremers were left dangling, waiting for ever on simple DNA confirmations that some of the bones found belonged to their daughter. Then they were harassed by the Dutch prosecution, who found their pushings for more and better investigations annoying and made them feel like troublemakers (Kremers' own words). So if anyone has a reason to blow the lid off any secret, important photos, it is Hans Kremers. But he never did and none of the people who viewed all those photos, including Jeremt Kryt (who is by now a foul play believer) said anything other than that all the important photos are out in the public. I would love to see all the photos though, even the selfie taken on the Mirador where Kris has her hair blown in her face, as IP detailed it. Maybe in due time. But there is no secret hidden in unreleased photos from the girls' camera. Or from their phones! IP had access to them too. But the digital camera was used much more that day, as it had long lasting battery life and I suspect they left the phones for what they were mostly to save phone battery. There are only a couple of photos made with those phones.

@badofi Thanks. I was surprised when people leaked photos to Juan of Kris and Lisanne at the flower fair in Boquete. That was a couple of years ago and the source sounded not that bothered about them. I honestly don't know if there are more photos on the original SD card of Boquete and surroundings. If IP have seen them all, it is good to have that thing clear. Because if that is the case, we do have to wonder what they were doing all Sunday afternoon (no photos, no diary entries, no stories to family or Sigrid). And the same for Monday afternoon. Were they up to some fun with locals (weed in Edwin's car, a discotheque, a swimming event perhaps) and did they want to stay discrete about it somehow? I understand that this swimming thing is hard to fit into the existing timeline. But the photo shows late afternoon sunlight. I do not trust Miriam necessarily and her story of Kris and Lisanne hanging around her house all evening, with Lisanne chatting with Miriam (she barely spoke Spanish...) and kris "reading a book"... She could have made that up or confused the first evening they stayed there with the 2nd or 3rd (when they were out). That would leave all of Sunday afternoon and evening wide open, timeline wise. Ah yes I know which photo you mean. F still has it up I think, from memory they were Dutch tourists even. Some nice shots in his public facebook post, showing off some pretty tourists he went hiking and swimming with, very good.

The 11:25 time is correct. The camera was still set to the factory settings. So to the London time. They just never adjusted the time settings when they arrived in Panama.

@@scarletr.7753 thank you so much for those important informations

Hi, yeh that photo is 580 indeed. I wrote about it (and the other photos) on my blog, here: koudekaas.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-bones-it-was-time-for-police-to-go.html Basically, you are right: that photo does not seem to show clear blood. Some people suspect blood stains under the hair, but this is certainly not clearly visible and an interpretation by them basically. Back in 2016 Jeremy Kryt from the Daily Beast was the first to publish information about these night photos and he claimed that photo 580 showed blood on Kris' temple/the side of her head. Since nobody at the time had seen these photos for themselves and Dutch TV only showed poor quality polaroid copies of them, all stacked on top of each other, nobody back then could verify this info. Later on, the night photos were all leaked and we could all see for ourselves that there is no clear, obvious blood visible.

​@@scarletr.7753thank you very much for your quick answer! I really appreciate your hard work on this case. Some also claim to see a face, eyes and lips, but I just cannot wrap my head around it. Also: the hair looks just too clean, it seems impossible that it was that clean after 1 week in a rainy jungle with no proper shelter. Some even think that it was a wig and not real hair! I really do not know what to think...

@bennyblabla3459 Thanks! Juan and I both made night photos with a red wig and the camera flash on. But you could always see the unnatural shine of the wig. It was always obvious that you were looking at a wig. Whereas photo 508 shows really the exact hair structure and colour that Kris also had. I do believe we see her hair, But that photo is the only night photo that shows Kris or Lisanne (why don't the other 99?) and it is also taken in such a way that we cannot see her face, cannot see her body, cannot see if she is dead or alive. I'd say that was done by design by a 3rd party photographer. Place Kris on the scene, create a bunch of similar night pictures that places them in the forest. And that is how a homicide case turned into a Lost and Accident case. But Kris' hair looks entirely clean and like you say, not at all like the hair of someone who had been rummaging through the jungle for 7 days by then. Through leaves and branches, without shampoo at her disposal. I suspect she is dead and had been dead for some time already. Or the date and time of these night photos are incorrect and they were taken much sooner. manually you can alter the time and date settings, take the photos, and manually reset them again. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here :)

@@scarletr.7753 I agre with you. What a sad and weird case. Maybe someday the locals will talk more...

The camera was set to London time (GMT), which was six hours ahead of Panama on April 1st of 2014. Kris and Lisanne seem to have never adjusted the time when arriving in Panama and neither did they change its 2013 setting to 2014. The Pianista photos were taken between roughly 11.00 am and 14.00 pm Panamanian time, but on their camera it showed as 17.00 - 20.00 pm roughly speaking.

​@@scarletr.7753 What about the night photos though Scarlet because they haven't had their times adjusted in the same way?

@@jasonstirling6962 Yes they did. Look for instance at minute 03:51. I wrote out the real time (1.39), but you can see the stamped on data on the photo as well, showing the camera time (7.39). And that goes for all the photos.

​@@scarletr.7753 Thank you for clarifying that for me and thanks too for all of your considerable work on this. In spite of everything that has happened before and no matter how futile it sometimes appears, I feel it is so important to keep cases alive, and you and Juan should be commended for your persistence and attention to detail.

Thanks. There are ways to either pause the video or to run it at a slower pace (settings, 0,75% speed for instance).

Is it woman’s face in one of the pictures? I saw a vid on RU-vid minutes ago showing it. It caught my attention.

@@humblehenoc2912 I’m not sure what number the photo is but it was some creppy face in the dark of a rock I could try to send it to u ?

​@@Daniel-sw8lt what number photo?

​@humblehenoc2912 what video?

You'd say so, indeed. But people who do not believe that these women met foul play, always find ways to explain away the missing file 509. Some seem to believe that this camera had a freak glitch suddenly. Others think that the camera was dropped in the river and then created a faulty file 509, before drying up and acting all normal again. I agree that it is one of the key aspects about this case that screams foul play, but many people just do not want to imagine a 3rd party attaching the camera to a computer and permanently cutting 509 off the camera's SD card and onto the computer. Because then you need to believe in a coordinated effort by a corrupt 3rd party and not everyone is willing to believe this. Some people also prefer to auto-reply with the question: 'But why would a 3rd party go to all that trouble if they could have just made the camera disappear entirely??' Of course the most logical explanation for that is that until the discovery of their belongings/bag/camera/phones in June 2014, the parents had been screaming in the media that kris and Lisanne had been kidnapped. And that they would not rest and would not let that jungle alone until they found them. That seems a pretty good motive to me to decide that the world finding out about these night photos and the emergency call attempts (faked or not) was the most straight forwatrd way to make everyone believe it was all an accident, and stop all the international hassle of the people in the area.

You forgot to add the 30,000 dollar award. Which pans out to about 1 million dollars in Panama. I will admit there is some strangeness to the case that is hard to explain away. Even if we accept the foul play scenario. But I think the clencher for me was the bleached bones, Kris's bleached boots and pants. The lack of scratches on the bones after supposedly going down a rocky river bed. And the cover up. They could of have pinged those phones. And the GPS records were all recorded on the phone. The only real logical explanation for a cover up is foul play. If they got lost and fell of a ravine or what ever. There would be no need for a cover up. @@scarletr.7753 es

@@elliothuh669 The problem with that big reward is that there wasn't a big public deal made about claiming it. Only later on did we learn that the people from Alto Romero kind of expected to be given that whopper of a reward sum for simply finding a few bones. Or the backpack. Maybe they technically could claim it based on that, but it sure was another motive, indeed. But the reward was first set on April 6th already ($2500) and was then raised to $30.000 on April 30th and was then raised again on May 13th to $40.000 in fact. Why wait until June 11th to plant the backpack? It may not have been the prime motive for all this I think, but certainly a contributing factor. Agreed and they did not ping those phones no, but they NEITHER pinged any other phones active in that Pianista area for April 1st! Unforgivable. They should have mapped out literally everyone who went up and down that trail that day.

Not only could the phones be pinged but the phones themselves store all of the GPS location data. They of course didn't release that data which should really make you wonder.. If it really was just an accident..@@scarletr.7753

The swim photo was definitely taken at a busy pool with witnesses who would know who those guys were, and identify them as being with the girls so that would be a non starter unless the guys were all maniacs. That the killers did not get caught shows they were anything but insane. The location of 508 is some distance down the far side of the Pianista. It is outside phone reception in addition to being isolated so it would be the perfect place for cunning criminals with knowledge of Kris and Lisanne'sr likely route to lie in wait and abducting them _without_ witnesses who could help a subsequent investigation.

I think so too, I know that many people dismiss the swimming photo, but the Dutch NFI forensic institute has investigated it and said it is a legit photo and not photoshopped. Just... they don't think it shows Kris and Lisanne. I disagree and the two other lads are 100% Osman and Manuel Murgas, both friends of Henry and both ALSO dead within the year. Yes photos 507 and 508 were taken beyond the summit. About 45 minutes walking over the summit, down the other sides.

Given the phone of Osman had a never deleted photo of Kris and Lisanne on it, and Osman was somehow involved in the abduction or murders, then one wonders why on earth he would keep that photo undeleted on his phone for months after huge publicity and a reward being offered for information about the disappearances would make it a time bomb for him. The most plausible explanation i can think of is for that photo being left on his phone is it is completely non incriminating. If it is evidence of anything then it's that Osman knew himself to be completely innocent of the murders. @@scarletr.7753

That is a very important question and a matter that was never solved. Possibly because Eileen Witek who made the appointment fled to Germany without being questioned and later she changed her story and 'lost memory'. It seems logical that this appointment was made on the Tuesday, since on Monday Kris and lisanne were still hopeful that replacement volunteer work would be arranged by Spanish by the River for the Tuesday. But by Tuesday morning, they would have known that these plans fell through as well. And that they had at least a week of free time ahead of them. This tour guide F., he changed his statements about whether or not he met them on Tuesday. In one interview with a prime Dutch newspaper, he claimed he saw one of the girls in a hammock at Spanish by the River and greeted them with 'Hola'. In another statement he said he never met them. So was he on the prowl on Tuesday to find himself some new tour clients? Or not? And if these girls did agree to go with him and Eileen on a day tour on Wednesday (and according to guide F. there were two more tours planned with him for that week), why would they venture off to the Pianista alone on Tuesday afternoon? When Marjolein of SbtR explicitly instructed them on Sunday not to hike there alone? There is information missing here, that much is certain. Some people are not telling the full truth. I also believe that something is not right with this narrative given now by F. If he never met them, it is absurd that after waiting not even half an hour, he dashed off to Miriam's house to ransack their bedroom. Girls he never met. A man who sees tourists all the time for work. I'd not be surprised if he knew by Wednesday morning that they weren't going to show up and that he needed an excuse to get into their bedroom and get his hands on things. The phone charger? A camera cable? Was it necessary to take German Eileen along to verify if there was no damning information written down in their diaries? In any case, he was 'worried' enough to break into their bedroom (these girls never gave him or Miriam permission to do so) and yet he was not worried enough to then report their disappearance to the families or police until the evening. hanging out with Eileen in his ranch. Eileen was the only person present at Spanish by the River. Ingrid and Marjolein were in Costa Rica. What made this new intern decide to leave the school abandoned and unmanned all day? It is bizarre.

@@scarletr.7753 I wonder if it's just a cultural difference. In our Western minds, you need to ask someone to make an appointment with them, because they need to agree. But in Panama, maybe a combination of sexism, ageism and xenophobia means that young tourist girls don't need to be asked, if Feliciano says 8am then it's 8am.

@@kennethmacalpin7655 " if Feliciano says 8am then it's 8am." But _when_ could he have said that? From all that we can piece together it doesn't seem like either he or eileen had the two's cellphone numbers, so on the one hand he says he didn't know who the girls were that tuesday morning and no meeting took place, on the other hand he (or eileen) say they had agreed on an 8am meet-up at the school for next morning... none of this adds up. None of this makes sense when you think on it. Let's say that some conversation really had taken place on tuesday morning, *after* Feliciano had left the school, eileen contacts him (by phone or e-mail?) and the two friends set off for the Pianista at around 10.45am.... how then does eileen contact the two to confirm the appointment has been agreed for next morning? Why, if they are off to the relatively ambitious Pianista trail on a solo walk, would the two PAY for a tour of some farm _first thing_ next morning?! If Feliciano called later on on tuesday evening or wednesday morning to say he either couldn't make it, or was going to be late, what was eileen's means of contacting Kris and Lisanne to fill them in on this? Indeed think it through - if you have made this last minute plan for a tour first thing next morning why is it Kris, Lisanne, Eileen, and/or Feliciano, have not shared numbers in order to communicate and/or keep up to date that the tour IS going to go ahead... in this situation would you not be communicating with each other later in the afternoon or evening, to confirm the appointment and that we are still set to meet at the school first thing in the morning?! None of this holds up.

@@davidmullen6011 I agree, it doesn't add up at all. The girls never had an appointment with Feliciano by any normal person's standards. Maybe Feliciano told Eileen he would pick the girls up at 8am tomorrow, but the girls didn't know about it. Likely they were already halfway up La Pianista with no phone reception when this alleged appointment was made for them. Which leads me to another point, why do we not have any /incoming/ phone activity? Why no calls or texts /to/ the girls? That would be important to see.

@@kennethmacalpin7655 "why do we not have any /incoming/ phone activity? Why no calls or texts /to/ the girls?" Exactly! There is no evidence of any cellphone contact between the two friends and either Eileen or Feliciano. None. My personal feeling is that he went to the school on tuesday morning to follow up on the booking the day before (probobly late morning) from the school for the Baru hike the two had requested. A booking to Baru is a big hike, well paid, and he would have wanted to follow up on this (phone/e-mail) request in person. At some point he would need to talk to these two clients, inform them of what the hike demanded, make sure they were equipped for it, and arrange travel details... So I believe *that* is the reason he was here - what other reason could he have?! The new and inexperienced Eileen was manning the schools reception. What happened when he arrived, and saw these two Dutch girls in the compound, you can only think he must have talked to them. He must have known _these_ were the two who had asked for the Baru tour. And while I have no clear idea what might have been said that morning I do strongly suspect the two were then given a lift into Boquete, to the backstreet cafe Nelvis, a very strange detail this as (again) there is no sensible or obvious reason the two would go to this place, unless they had company with them. Or an appointment to meet somebody. There are various resteraunts and cafe's on the main road in the town centre. There is Il Pianista itself. So if they left the school on a direct course to the Pianista entrance they would not waste money or time on _two_ taxi's to get there! I believe they were likely given a lift to town, direct to Nelvis. But for *what* reason I cannot quite imagine....

What do you see?

Hi, I posted a lot of versions of that photo 580 on my blog, and various theories when it comes to what we are actually looking at here. I don't think there is certainty or consensus at this point, it could be her neck but others see a face behind the hair for instance. koudekaas.blogspot.com/2021/07/part-2-with-new-leads-new-swimming.html

@@scarletr.7753 Hi, ah ok, thatnks for the reply, it seems you can see more detail in high contrast but like you said, its still hard to make out.