I am from the UK and don't know firearms, but Forgotten Weapons is as much a gun channel as it is a history channel, and for that I thank you, Gun Jesus.
Same (from/in the UK) firearms are my biggest interest but being in the UK it’s very hard to get them even deactivated ones are like double the price of a working one in America
This is why I sub to Forgotten Weapons. The back story. Where else will you find the history behind Colt's shotguns and Winchester's back door deals that in fact affect us today. No Winchester handguns and no Colt lever action. Thank you.
+Kenny VanCleave Yup, same here for me it's also a large part of the reason why I enjoy hickok45 so much too. Granted hit focus is more on the newer less forgotten items but even those have an interesting history at times :).
My local gun shop has a really nice 1883 Colt that's gorgeous in its condition. It's also better and tighter than most newer double barrels I've seen lately. If it weren't for having to keep blackpowder shells in it I would really be nice to have to hunt with.
It is possible to get an extra set of barrels to run modern ammo in them. Breach-Face with the Firing-pin doesn’t take very much of the pressure of the shells, and thus the older Actions are fine with modern barrels and modern ammo (I collect principally 19th Century stuff, and I recently bought one of the Wells-Fargo marked 1878 Hammer Guns that someone in the late-1800s had bought a longer set of barrels - still colt, but made around 1888 to 1894, and capable of running smokeless powder - to use the shotgun for more practical purposes. And then someone made a set of modern shorter barrels - that look like they date to 1950/60 - that has no problem with the more modern shells, including the longer shells… Although shooting it with the modern Magnum Shotgun Ammo is painful to the shooter, usually me, and not something that is needed with an 18” to 20” barrel - The original Colt Barrels are 18”, the 20th Century replacements are 20”). Something else that I learned is that if you manage to get some Full-Length Brass Shotgun Shells, that using a lighter-load of smokeless powder is OK in a shotgun, as the brass shell helps to contain the different pressure-curve of the modern powder. This is also vital for the 10g guns from that period. They typically don’t do well with paper or plastic rounds, even of black-powder.
3:59 *My god that's one beautiful bunch of Damascus steel barrels.* The pattern is perfect on both of them, the first one is twisted pattern and the second one is folded pattern, very high quality and labor intensive job. Today this would be horrendously expensive to get that lever of quality.
I have my grandfather’s 1878 Colt in 10-gauge. It’s been hunted with and carried a lot, but it served him for a lifetime. They were elegant old guns although pretty heavy.
+SomeGuyInSandy I was thinking the same. I've handled some shotguns of around that era, and they were indeed beautiful. Sad that they are likely unsafe to shoot- at least with anything close to full power.
Travis Davis it’s a type of folded metal alloy, I believe (by no means am I a metallurgist). Google it and you’ll find a better explanation and examples.
Great review and a lot of great info. I own a 1878 Colt in 10 Gauge. The S/N has it being manufactured in 1881. I have owned it for about 20 years now. A great wall hanger if their ever was one. The JM Davis Gun Museum in OK has a bunch of them on display.
I had no idea Colt made shotguns in this era. Odd considering how many they sold. Thanks for the interesting background info too, and for the perspective on the era. Everyone thinks of that era as people with cut down coach guns and revolvers with multiple spare cylinders... When in reality guns were used by the vast majority as invaluable hunting firearms considering most people lived on farms/in the country. And gun fights/shoot outs were rare.
This is what I love about firearms: the history. I like range time and accuracy and being as tactical as possible as much as the next guy, but the actual history of a specific firearm and its manufacturer is what appeals to me.
Just picked up a nice ‘78 for $250. I looked it up on Colt’s site and it was produced in 1881. It’s mechanically perfect and in great condition overall. Still a wall hanger because of the Damascus barrels, but I do enjoy it still.
I just recently got one of the Colt 1878 Hammer Shotguns, with two sets of extra barrels, and a Wells-Fargo stamp (with letter of Provinance). The two extra barrels are that someone wanted a “regular” set of barrels, at 28” long (still Colt, but not dating to the 1880s manufacture of the Shotgun itself), and then another pair of Modern Sawn-down Barrels at 20” (The Colt’s original barrels are 18”). I guess a prior owner got the other shortened barrels so they could shoot modern shotgun rounds through it. I have also seen a LOT of the Wells-Fargo Coach-Guns in 10g, especially the 1878 Colts. About 50% of the 1878 Colt Hammer guns I have seen at RIA, Morphy’s, and James Julia have been 10g. They have been in immaculate condition for the most part, and the prior owner of the 1878 Colt I bought said that is because they don’t work well with modern rounds, even loaded with Black powder, and they tend to prefer the old Brass-Walled Shotgun shells (been thinking about getting some made just to get a 10g Wells-Fargo Colt Hammer Coach Gun. If I do that, I will likely do some in 12g as well, to go with the other antique Coach Guns/Shotguns I have: Hopkins & Allen, Parker Bros., and a Belgian Gun whose maker I cannot recall). I was lucky in getting the thing, as they, like everything else, have been seeing 2x to 3x the pre-COVID prices at the Auction Houses. I got the 1878 Colt for only about 10% more than the pre-COVID prices, due to having arranged the trade quite a while ago (He got a Chinese Military SKS from Korea in the exchange - It has some interesting graffiti scratched onto the inner magazine housing, of a North Korean Soldier complaining about Yankees and missing his girlfriend). All of the older Colts and Winchesters have been seeing INSANE Prices at the Auction Houses since March/April/May or 2020 when things got crazy with COVID (ESPECIALLY the Lever-Action, Terminator II Winchester 1887; and/or the WWI/WWII Winchester 1897 Slide-Action, Hammer Trench/Riot Guns. Even the regular 1897 Winchesters have been going for insane prices, as people will usually buy a second barrel to convert it to look like the older Riot/Trench guns). RIA was the first to start seeing insane prices, but they started-out being just the Modern AR/AK/SCAR/H&K platforms being ridiculously expensive. Then it was the Vietnam, Korea, and WWII era guns. The Last to start seeing insane prices were the Antiques. I figure that those started to be bought because they don’t require an FFL transfer. Really annoying as they are principally what I collect (Cowboy and 19th Cen Military Guns. The old Pocket-Pistols are the principal focus, but not the sole focus).
I wouldn't call $1800 top of the line for a shotgun. I'm not saying a shotgun of that price is low quality, but many current production top tier shotguns sell for well over $5000.
+b33lze6u6 If not top of the line close to it, especially when you factor in how people spent money then vs now (less frivolous purchases in those days). Theres more variables though.
@@CPHannigan as a fan of shotguns, more than rifles and pistols, what brand names are you referring to when talking about top of the line? I'm only familiar with Remington and Benelli
Awesome shotgun! I'll never forget seeing you and the boys play at Ozzfest at the Smirnoff Music Center back in '01. Wish you'd get back together and go on tour again, hope Travis is doing ok. Great video. :-)
My dad (since passed) handed down to me his grandfather's Colt Model 1878 12-gauge with Twist steel barrels (and no metal Buttplate on the Buttstock, factory original). For a classic black powder double barrel hunting shotgun, it is a great wall hanger for me.
Among the tangible objects telling the story of history, firearms are far above simple tools and weapons, but almost on par with great works of art in establishing the sophistication and technological prowess of those who made and used them. As advanced as we may think ourselves in the 21st Century with computers and cnc manufacture could we cost effectively for mass production replicate 19th Century guns like these Colt shotguns and the Merwin & Hulbert revolvers ?
I love guns as I grew up in the era of old western movie's! So many Xmas eves I spent tossing and turning in my bed HOPING Santa would bring me a pair of Roy Rogers pair of colt Cap six shooters . To hold a real Colt six gun would be a dream come true, thanks for your great work!
Oh! And in 2016 no-one was paying attention to Colt’s Long-Guns. That also changed in 2020, when Colt Lightnings that were Medium and Large-Framed (chambered in a variety of .32RF, .38RF, .32Colt/S7W, .38Cold/S&W, .38Spl, .44RF/WCF, .44-40, .45Colt, etc.) started to also go for insane prices compared to pre-2020. Again, likely because the Antique status of many did not require an FFL Transfer. But I am surprised that the Larger-Framed Colt Lightnings didn’t get more attention in their day as a viable competitor to the Winchester Lever-Action, given that they are capable of being fired slightly faster. I am also surprised that no-one has resurrected the platform to make a modern, magazine-fed Lightning, where it would make for a Novel Tactical Rifle as an option to Semi-Auto. I can’t recall his name, but in the 00s I ran into a guy who made what were “Steampunk Tactical” 19th Century Cowboy and 19th Cen Military Firearms. They were fitted with wood and brass fittings that looked like a cross being the 19th Century Military Standards, and Modern Military Accessories. They would have brass Picatinny-rails, with custom-made optics and accessories that had that “Steampunk” vibe to them… Something like that would make for an interesting focus for an actual manufacturer.
More often than not, the backstory of a gun is more interesting than the gun itself. That is unless it’s the headspace operated rifle (Ian did a video on this. Check it out)
Hi Ian, I cam across this video and it blow me away. I just inherited the one in the back ground. It was my great grandpas. This video was made 7 years ago. Just seeing if there was an appraiser I could get this appraised, Any info would help.
Wow, prices were pretty soft on both unless there was a good deal more wrong with them than I noticed. Wish I had been paying attention back when they were going under the hammer.
Would be interesting to know how the 1887 lever action shotgun fits into this Colt Leverguns vs Winchester shotguns debate. Was it another response to something that Colt brought up, or was it seen as something independant of it? As far as i know they weren´t made in huge numbers anyway due to that super long lever pull.
Thank you for a very interesting video. I was looking for information in order to register my great grandfather's Colt, as I did not know which model it was. Turns out it is a 1878. Nice to know a bit of its background history.
The classic double-barrel shotgun on the 19th century Western Frontier (1850-1890). Be sure to view online the NRA video: "Tales Of The Gun: Shotguns" A settler, pioneer, homesteader, townsman, trapper, farmer, rancher, outdoors- man, miner, prospector , hunter, etc. during the above 19th century Western Frontier era (1850-1890), especially if limited to owning only one firearm , was best served by a double-barrel shotgun. And this continued well into the 20th century. Even today during the 21st century the double-barrel shotgun has it's advocates, including myself. Obviously the first double-barrel shotguns were the percussion muzzle loading shotguns, many of them British, European, and Belgian imports with Damascus "twist" barrels. Later the so called "break open" double appeared: first with outside hammers, then later the classic Anson and Deely box lock "hammerless" action invented by Westley Richards of Birmingham, England in 1875. Like it's predecessor muzzle loading smooth bore, many of these had the same Damascus or "twist barrels." 10 and 12 gauge were of course the most common. However, market hunters until *1918 often had 8 gauge shotguns. Again, owning only one firearm is what many during these times could afford. The old T.V. Westerns decades back: Gunsmoke, Bonanza, Big Valley, The Rifleman, often correctly depicted the shotgun in it's proper role on the frontier, farm, trap line, homestead, mining claim, etc. Same for the Little House On The Prairie. The John M. Browning designed Winchester Model 97 (1897-1957) "hammer" pump shotgun gradually commenced the decline of the double-barrel shotgun in the United States, and probably Canada too. Thankfully for nearly 100 yards modern double-barrel shotguns produced in high strength steels chambered for smokeless powder shotgun shells have superseded the old time black powder shotguns. Unfortunately our nation has become largely urbanized, metro, over populated, cursed with urban sprawl, housing development, free ways, strip malls, shopping centers, etc. The open space has largely disappeared! I guess I was born several generations too late. But there is still hope in the future, especially for the Christian believer. Read in the Bible John Chapter 14:1-6 *In 1918 to outlaw market hunting in America the 8 gauge became illegal. Finally, don't forget the L.C. Smith double-barrel shotgun via Hunter Arms Co. of Fulton, New York. Along with Parker Bros, Ithaca, Fox, LeFever, Remington, etc. this was a top notch American shotgun. Jim Farmer Merrill, Oregon in Klamath County Native Southern Oregonian since November 1956
I never knew that webly sold guns to Winchester but how did colt manage to get rid if the hammer action and put the firing pin on the inside of the gun
I've been told in the time of the Civil War Colt's Manufacturing Company have made a certain amount of military Springfield Model 1861 muskets ordered by the Union Army.
+Anne Isopod Indeed, it's not Damascus Steel - it's a super-cool method of making gun-barrels from skelp. Its name is the Damascus Method, and the end result is called a Damascus Twist Barrel.
+Anne Isopod Damascus steel is a general term for multiple types of metal combined forming a cool pattern. The actual original way that sort of steel was made in the city of Damascus is forgotten but their method wasn't that unique so when people talk about Damascus steel nowadays they don't mean the exact type of steel they made there but something similar and generally just as good.
Anne Isopod It is indeed Damascus steel. The term applies to the pattern found both in crucible (wootz) steel and pattern welded steels. Crucible steel develops the pattern inherently, and when access to it was lost, medieval metal smiths resorted to pattern welding to replicate the effect. Also, the methodology of creating ancient crucible steel has been known and used in historically accurate smithing for at least the past 20 years.
Hello, I'd like to know what's the difference betwee the Colt 1878 and the Remington 1889. Both shotguns are essentially the same and I have no idea how to differentiate one and another.
I wish you guys could add some high quality still pictures inline to the video. It is very difficult to see the closeup details with the camera as it is shaky up close and too much movement to get an eye on it. Otherwise keep up the great vids.n
According to the late Ian Hogg, Winchesters trump card in the famous deal was several pistol designs he'd had done by Hugo Borchadt who was working for him. Hogg says that Winchester showed Colt the designs and they were so good Colt agreed to the deal. He further says this caused a rift between Winchester and Borchardt that led to him leaving, later to make his name with his own pistol. Supposedly the designs were in Winchester's museum...which makes me wonder whether you'd be able to do an item on them..? (hint, hint..)
One's barrel seems to have a spiral pattern to it, the other seems to have the imitation of pattern welding on it. Do either of these properties indicate anything about the barrel itself? What was called (obviously incorrectly) "Damascus steel" barrels?
Hi, I'm really like you'r show and after i had seen this chapter wonder if you have any info about double barrel hammerless The Syracuse Arms Co. NY ???
I love you so but everytime I go look up how much the gun cost that you're talking about I could never afford it it's really a bummer because some of the guns are awesome
hey ian speaking of obscure colt long guns I have a 1864 colt rifled musket from the civil war how much do you think it would be worth and would you ever do a video on one
I wish someone would make a reproduction of that Colt 1878 SxS, I'd love to have one as a shooter. "coach" guns are everywhere, but as you point out, in real history, not so much! (dang movies!!!)
What's your philosophy for shooting Damascus/twist barrel shotguns? Don't shoot? Send for proof testing in England? Shoot light BP loads and hope for the best?
Does anyone know why Colt discontinued making shotguns in the 1960's? I heard that it was about a deal between another shotgun maker. Kind of like Colt/Remington deal that was mentioned in the video.
I got a quicky question. Which style of double barrel came historically first? Under and over or the side by side? I can imagine a blackpowder Double barrel side by side.
It all started out as the fowler, but I think the side by side came first, just because an over/under configuration of a flintlock mechanism would be very hard and impractical.
+highlandrab19 thats true. But a shotgun cartridge has (most of the time) more power and a over/under configuration is weaker than a side by side. Besides (no pun), over/unders are mostly a lot heavier. But this is all speculation, don't take my answer for granted.
+Copster It was side by side(I believe) and they were present since the 15th century matchlocks came around. Here is an example of a triple barreled matchlock from the 1520s/1530s; www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12712
I'm here because I traced the story of the Caldwell shotgun's story from Hunt Showdown to this particular model, its funny that the shady deal actually happened.
