No, disagree. Who cares if a writer tries something new with a character and it fails? I don’t associate my identity with liking certain characters, so I don’t get upset when a bad piece of art uses that character.
@@Michael_Bancroft yea, fans who associate their identity with a corporate product (like Batman) so they get offended when a bad piece of art uses the character “wrong”. Instead id suggest to just be a fan of good stories from good writers with a vision you like, which are unchanged just because someone else uses the character. Why do I care that rings of power sucked? It doesn’t change my love for the Tolkien books or the Jackson films. I’m not a “fan” of LotR in its entirety as some nebulous corporate franchise, so I don’t feel bad just because the franchise as a whole is diminished by an Amazon adaptation.
The idea of any writing of characters is that you put your self into them if a character your writing is nothing like you or has nothing relatable than you then you shouldn't be writing. It's called variation. If you want traditional Batman read the comics or watch the animated show.
@@konel2368 how so. It's not funny, It's a self insert and you can't separate the characters from the ogs because they are litteraly named after the characters
It's a generalization, but it's true enough. Look at Harley Quinn. She used to be a tragic villain, a battered wife. She also had a lot of sass, some sex appeal, and some depth. But as soon as women got their hands on her she's emancipated, she's fierce...and she's complete horseshit. XD
@@evilemperorzurg9615 want a good parody. The channel "JustSomeRandomGuy" did a decent parody of dc/marvel heroes/villains bar with batman spiking spidermans milkshakes and using his dreams to write movies. Then theres a 3 "season" storyline
That’s what is so sad and frustrating about many of our beloved franchises. There’s a lot of “progressive” bosses that come in and kinda have disdain for the characters they are now responsible for crafting. The classic is Starwars or more recently witcher. The show runners (women again I believe) have actively said they think the books are dumb.
@@Michael_Bancroft exactly. Peter Jackson did it best, him and the other show runners agreed to tell the story as true to Tolkien as they could and not to bring in their own politics. Hence….timeless classic. Takes a level of humbleness and self awareness that is gone from today. Everything has to be an exercise in social justice or politics.
@@jesusriced I think it’s because out of touch bosses that just want profits assume that woke people are the new cool thing. So they hire some fresh woke writers thinking they’ll make something cool but actually they are more or less activists pushing agendas over stories.
@@jesusriced Hollywood is woke brudda. Wokies will prefer giving handouts to wokies over choosing someone on merit, and will go out of their way to NOT give anything to non-wokies, regardless of merit.
Sadly there are very few who can think the other way but when they do they're amazing. For example the woman who wrote Full Metal Alchemist has such a great understanding of brotherhood that I absolutely believe Ed and Al could be real people with a real relationship.
The woman who wrote dorohedoro is also amazing. Jk Rowling as well. It really sucks that some women are ruining things for all women, women who do not deserve hate at all.
@@mod_myst Fair enough, we can agree to disagree, but I LOVED her books and characters. They were simple and yet complex. She was a master. Especially making her main character a man, I would struggle to make my main character a female as I don't think I would have a good enough grasp on the female mind. She didn't necessarily have a grasp on the adult male mind, her character stayed "pure", or rather kept the mentality of a male child but with the reasoning and emotional capacity of an adult. (makes sense, he was 11-17 in the books)
One of the worst things you can do to a popular well established character is self-insert yourself into said character while ignoring how that character is actually portrayed in their respective universes. If you want to male a self-insert character, then make an original character without ruining a character people love. A modern example is Velma from the Velma show. That's how you ruin a character by projecting yourself onto a character people actually like. Another example is She-Hulk. The She-Hulk show made She-Hulk unrecognizable to how she has been portrayed for years in the comics and some cartoons. I really wish that when it comes to movies, TV shows, comics, and video games about superheroes that they would hire actual fans of whichever hero the story is about to direct, produce and or write those characters.
Comics do have this massive issue now of writers essentially turning these characters that have been around for decades, with established lore and backstories and character arcs, and turning them into shallow self-inserts for them to project their personal grievances, ideologies, and so forth onto. Or even worse, they hate the character they're writing for and decide to project that instead by destroying - or deconstructing, as they'd put it - the characters.
For real, look at such prime examples as "I am not Starfire" and "the Velma Show". The first is the author inserting herself as the main character to project her hatred of popular pretty girls, the second is just the author wearing Velma's outfit projecting her hatred of white men.
I mean one of my favorite moments is Bruce talking to the robins at a gothem McDonald’s that’s themed after Batman and his villains where Damien gets a happy meal with a red hood toy. It’s from the I am band story arc written by Tom king
I get what you're saying but imagine in the real world equivalent, you take your kid to McDonald's, he opens his "heroes and villains" happy meal, and to start his collection he got.... Hitler! 😂
This makes a whole lot of sense💯, that's what diversity characters have fallen victim to as well... Hence why they created a black batman from a future timeline in the same universe where Bruce Wayne is still Batman by the way...
Makes a lot of sense. Something has shifted though, because it used to be if a little girl picked up Batman, she’d become Batman’s mother. She’d cradle the figurine like a doll. Things have changed in the progressive world.
I actually am not a batman fan, I couldn't connect to him, until they actually wrote Bruce Wayne acting like batman, then I could see the man behind the mask. Every writer puts something of themselves into the characters they write, its just how much. So "yeah batman doing this would be great, I'm gonna draw and write it this way" is putting yourself into the character as you see it in a similar manner. The issue with self insert characters is we usually lose ourselves into them along with losing the plot. This is just how I see it, I have enjoyed comics for ages, I just read more marvel then DC. (All hail doctor doom... doom for president! OK enough references for now as 4 more should appear if these 2 fail... OK now I'm done with references... for now.)
Thats why I dont roleplay as canon characters but create my own ocs for roleplay story writing. Because I have the habit to project bits of myself into my characters.
This is true. There have been some moments in DC where the characters sitting around and having coffee is pretty awesome though. If you need an example, watch season one of Young Justice and look for the scene where Batman talks to Superman about the importance of providing a good father figure to his clone.
That is really interesting and surprisingly accurate. As with all things there are exceptions, but that's definitly accurate in most examples we see these days.
well put. I think my best example was reading the first Marvel Predator title. wow, it was the worst thing I read in 2022! some random chick claims she killed like 26 predators. meanwhile Arnold's entire team of trained mercenaries can barely take down 1. I was like, you can't just casually drop that in there! So i dropped that book so fast.
I agree in part on this statement,as I think the issue is way more severe. it's not just certain female authors project themselves into the characters(see she hulk and velma),but the whole social justice warrior concept that gripped many platforms over the years. I am a firm believer that everyone can be whatever they want,but I take issue when while writing the character a feature is their entire personality,be it being gay/lesbian,a litterally faultless female hero that gets everything handed to them with no real struggle(the worse in my opinion) and even lectures everyone else,token black person to fill a quota,and so forth;it's a disservice to those communities because we as people have layers and aspects,and it stands to reason for a story to be even remotely believable the characters should be too,they should have a consistency to them,and every changes that comes,is made naturally. That's just what I think at least.
Sometimes the coolest stories in comics are when theres less action and they just get into the character and their daily lives. Its partially what had always made Spiderman such a compelling character. Getting to watch him struggle with having to be a kid in school and his social interactions are the best.
That’s Spider-Man. That is cool. What’s not cool is if Spider-Man suddenly starts struggling with the neuroses of the middle-age writer who got put on the book this year.
@@Michael_Bancroft I mean that's always been a problem in comics. A new writer comes in and goes too extreme in one trait or two like batman in All-Star batman
See, I could maybe envision someone like The Flash sitting in a bar having coffee. Heck, I would love to see an entire comic that is just Flash and the Trickster having coffee, catching up, and just having some nice character moments. Then it ends with them playing darts. The non-pointy kind.
Didn’t they reference that in the justice league show? I could swear ive seen an animated clip of him talking to the trickster offering to play darts with him (the non pointy kind) if he turns himself in
It's not necessarily a boys vs girls issue but I agree with what he's saying. Write the character. Not yourself. If you want to write yourself that is totally fine but not at the cost of an already established character. This is why a subtle way to avoid this problem is to just literally make your own character. Like write about what your encounter with Batman would be rather than make him act out those thoughts.
I would argue you can pull off putting more of yourself into an established character and change it. It's all about 2 things : canonical continuity and popular reception. Star Lord and Tony Stark are almost closer to the artist playing them and ad libing their lines than they are to their comics counterpart. Works because the mcu had its own continuity and most people enjoyed the changes. You want to see a sassy Batman? Check out the Adam West version. I could write a homoerotic retalling of Batman and Robin's story, and it wouldn't conflict with other Batmen if I just remove it from their continuity and place it in another. Batman can be many thing. He can be a Burtonian madman, an old vigilante close to a faciste, a detective in the 19th century, a Nolanian hero, George Clooney, a solo caped crusader or a father figure, even a fracking LEGO!... As long as you either make it its own thing or respect the stories you're following.
I mean that makes sense to me because men and women have very different ways of thinking and acting a majority of the time so it would stand to reason the writing process would be different as well as it seems based off your experience and understanding which I’ll take as evidence for this example, that means most female writers aren’t as effective at writing for pre-existing characters like Batman or spider-man. Which makes sense why most female written stories I’ve seen with female authors have the man character being a self insert on some level, not to say that all women do so nor to say there aren’t men who do exactly the same as those women
I saw a comic from Spider-Man earlier today where apparently Spider-Man and MJ break up (because drama and bullshit) and then Spidey gets together with black cat and now it’s been about 6 months, they go to a romantic getaway where they just so happen to run into MJ and her new boyfriend who she’s also helping him raise his kids, MJ jokingly accuses of Peter of stalking her, which Pete just walks away but his robe gets caught (because they’re at a couples retreat) and reveals, “Here kitty kitty” boxers….because that’s what we want from Spider-Man…
@@Michael_Bancroft I missed a part too, Peter Parker is still obsessed with her apparently and so much so that she has to tell him to leave her alone too. And this story just screams of a woman writing this story, she’s moved on while her *SUPERHERO* ex boyfriend is still so madly in love with her and obsessed with her still, just showing that she’s so strong and independent while her literal demi god ex is actually weak and needs her still ru-vid.comB-BwLX2NDwk?feature=share
Wow. I've heard EVS describe this over the years. Sometimes it can get a little Ramble-y. But this cut & edit is perfect. Gets right to the heart of his Point!
It’s been demonstrated in many different studies that this is how boys and girls tend to approach play. He was clear to point out not all women carry this way of thinking to their writing, and anyone who’s read comics know many men do this now too.
@@Michael_Bancroft well personally I’d have to look more into that and I get his point I’m just saying I’ve met people who played differently I played differently some people can image themselves side my side with the character or invent whole new worlds based on the character that excludes but excludes them entirely in the end it’s human behavior while u can find trends it’s still extremely varied ya know
tbh the best comics are when the characters are just sitting around talking. these surreal characters wearing insane costumes are just talking about mundane things is hilarous
Best is a strong word. Comics shouldn’t be non-stop action, but anyway, the point he’s making is that legacy characters have pre-defined personalities and concerns, and writers shouldn’t insert themselves in their instead.
He just named the only 2 women in comics with some relevance. Great! To everyone: go read Ann Nocenti's Daredevil and Spiderman or Simonsons' New Mutants (after Claremont).
I mean, the issue is that many super heroes and characters in general are made based on writers personalities. Also, changing the character a little is not a bad thing cause keeping them like that l ads to most recent Spiderman
This is so crazy how true this is. I never thought of it that way but this is 100% correct... When men come up with characters we often try to distance our true selves as far as possible from the hero we instead pick traits that we know we don't have but wish we had... Almost like a more true escape rather than a "drama" or a "play"
As a GenX Geekgirl, I understand and respect the Universe and Characters of said Universe. Take for example, Warhammer 40K...I know and respect that this Universe is a Grimdark Universe where for every win, there is either a very heavy price paid for it, or there is an even greater loss. It is also 75%-85% Male Characters and Warfare...and I accept this. When they say, "No Female Space Marines", I accept that. If I want girl power in said Universe, I'll go find the Adepta Sororitas. But on the whole, I will take the Space Marines, the Astartes, the Primarchs, the Traitor Legions, the Xenos, and even the God Emperor himself...as...they...are. AS WRITTEN. EEENNND QUOTE!
The mark of a good writer is distancing themselves from their characters. I mean not inserting themselves into the character if that character had been established prior. You can pull from the past and build on it but a character that you were GIVEN the reins to should definitely NOT be you and NOT be a mouthpiece for your personal politics. Example, I write Batman to just picks up a spliff and smokes it. I indulge in green, where the character Batman NEVER touches substances that can hinder his ability to fight crime. That doesnt track. Make your own characters in an indie publishing company rather than take a dump on major companies with your fanfic.
That's why you see so many activists with feminine traits, it's not necessarily A man or woman difference but rather a femininity versus masculinity trait mentality
Batman can be whatever you want. Why not have a different type of character under the same name? Y’all gotta stop complaining that this isn’t your character
You're right, it's fine sometimes or alongside the orginal, but it becomes a problem when it becomes the dominant type of character or only type. Star Wars is an example of this. Man, rip star wars.
Totally agree! Great MAN writers like Steve Ditko would never project their own world views into their characters! This is why men writers are just better 💪💪💪🤷♂️ ‘Nuff said!
@@alexedwards9695 every writer puts a bit of themselves into their characters and some over do it, but why they pretending that’s a exclusively women trait?
This is the funniest shit I've ever heard, when fucking ultimate Spider-Man litterally has Peter dating the writers favorite female super hero Kitty Pride, then have his OC date her after they break up.
It's the death of creativity; you can't shoe-horn in diversity to works that have already been written. WRITE NEW WORLDS don't co-opt our stories. We are witnessing the end of creativity. I'm not watching anymore big studio films. We have to send a message.
The worst part is that they tear down what supposed to uplift them. Men see superman and dream to be like him. I still can't forgive them for taking away wonder woman ambassadorship because she doesn't look like them.
Oh no! Batman can't drink coffee!!! Coffee too feminine!!! Dude, why does this even have to be a conversation. I love Batman. He isn't witty but knows how have fun the rare times he allows himself to do so. Since when is being sassy feminine. God damn! Some people really got to put gender in everything. Having a serious personality isn't masculine. Being honest in a conversation isn't feminine. Batman as a character is full of anxieties but uses anger to block out those feelings. As soon as Batman does something soft like talk to Alfred about his worries it is unacceptable. I honestly hate bringing up that my favorite comics are Batman. Just stop putting gender on every word and action.
@@Michael_Bancroft if your response to someone calling you sexist is asking if its wrong, your just admitting your a sexist. And yes. Yes it is wrong. You assume women cant write superhero stories based off of baseless assumptions on how women interact with characters. Thats sexist and prejudice, and lacks evidence.
@@Michael_Bancroft definition of sexism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. Prejudice definition: preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience. Discrimination definition: the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of ethnicity, age, sex, or disability. Do you see what these definitions have in common? The fact that each one is wrong in some way. If you think sexism is ok because its right your a fucking moron because sexism is wrong so it can never be right. You can treat the sexes differently in biological terms of course there are differences there. But your not doing that here your just using prejudice to spread bullshit theories and passing them off as true because your a sad pathetic man who cant even respect his fellow humans, never mind actually bringing up a good arguement against some random guy on the internet
I definitely think its because they are not invested into the character. Also you are so right. Every new comic i’ve read that has a female lead written by a female author have just been self inserts. I do wanna point out however that i dont think its because they are women in my opinion its because these people are simply bad writers and they are being hired simply because of their gender.
As a woman, even I understand what a character shouldn’t and should be. You want a sassy OC? Make your own, stop messing with already developed characters! If anything, it shows how bad you are at creating, because you know your character can’t stand on their own two feet, so you have to slap an already known characters name on it. But it’s not THEM. And that’s not to bash on just women writers- some men write women just plain wrong. But with anyone creating, a character must be true to themselves.
Me, a female writer: I will have you know, the only change in Bats will probably be more dad material and I'm upping the horny/flirty stats. I never see myself as that character, it's hard to, I usually create more or just write that character as they should be (sometimes there is a change if I'm making it an alternate reality).
Writers just doesn't care that much, a perfect statement for either males or females writers. You have to care about the source material if you are writing about the source material.
Nightwing: Can you Believe Damian Bruce?! He wore my actual Robin costume I mean I knows he is your son and the new Robin but at least Jason and Tim made it there own, but uh uh not him, he just wants to get under my skin Batman: you know it Dick I’ll let him know as soon as I get home that Alfred gonna be making him his own style and your suit is gonna back in the case Nightwing: you go Bruce you my boy, with him throwing all that I’m the Blood son stuff in my face all the time it’s just not the way we work you know what I mean Bruce(flicks hair) Waiter: what can I get for y’all this evening Nightwing: I’ll have the Caesar Salad with Chicken and oh is the dressing Fat Free or… you know what just give it to me anyways it’s been one of them nights Batman: ummm I ate before I came I’ll just have a Cosmo Nightwing: come on Bruce you gonna make me eat alone gonna make me feel fat Batman: fine I’ll eat a little something let me get a large pizza with everything and side of bread sticks (Nightwings salad is never touched they both gorge on the pizza while talking about the same thing and same people for the next 4 hours)
Men are also generally more into action movies than women. While women are generally more into romance movies than men. Men are mostly interested in the action within stories. While women are mostly interested in the drama. Having both male & female writers could be a huge benefit for many companies. While having only male or female writers might make the stories less interesting. The problem is not that we have seen a lot of all female writers' rooms behind content in recent years. Although there should be a mix of male & female at all times. But that they are also self-proclaimed activists. So the stories are quite often very black & white, with the characters being very one dimensional. This has resulted in a lot of terrible content in recent years that has often flopped. People who see the world in a very black & white way & who views certain things in a more simplistic way will reflect that in their writing.
