I love you how address the problem of people critiquing the values Idea Channel is based on. Thank you for your devotion to civil and earnest discourse. It's been a grand experiment.
I subscribed only a little over a month ago, unaware that The End Was Near. I had been aware of this channel for years, but simply was watching enough "other stuff". I haven't even been here long enough to in any way mourn or miss the absence of future content. It's more like, "Well, I hardly got to know ya." Fortunately, there is a rich and deep archive to explore, which will keep me connected for some time to come. It will be interesting to meet not only my predecessors in the comment sections, but also the newer viewers seeing and responding to it for the first time. I'm certain, when I return to this spot at some time in the future, I will be properly mournful. Until then I'll remain subscribed, with the bell selected.
At a restaurant, I do eat a pizza with fork and knife. Also, when I eat a big, "artisanal" hamburger, I use fork and knife. It's not snobbery, it's a purely functional and esthetic choice. But when I'm at a friend's place or at home, I can afford to eat like a pig. What I'm saying is that the way I do something depends on the situation. Sometimes I consume my culture mindlessly, sometimes I overthink it - but either way, that does not detract from my enjoyment of it. And I can also switch from one mode to another without problem - or be in both at the same time. I guess metamodernism is similar: just because you are ironic about something and view that in a meta way, it doesn't mean you cannot have sincere feelings about it at the same time, and vice versa.
I will miss this show. I just wanted to say that about the overthinking a joke or a sunset thing that I'm scientifically minded and have expertise also in Japanese and Japanese culture and I've only found the expertise I have to enhance my experience and help me to appreciate the small things more. Like scientifically a sunset and knowing what makes it makes it more miraculous. The example for me that I have found the most profound is biology and when I think about how small genetic differences can create such drastic changes between people and even between the sexes. It's miraculous that such a thing exists in nature yet we are the same species. Thoughts like that are deep, rooted in detailed understanding, and also still filled with wonder and appreciation at a level that not knowing can't get you to. Another thing is living in Japan and being able to see so many word puns in Japanese with numbers in Japanese phonetics and even sometimes mixing with English. I can't share that appreciation and love with someone else who isn't also bilingual because they just won't get it, but if someone else has the same expertise it's great. A simple example is the company Nissan and it's like the company's name so whatever. But since living here I got to see the company's name in kanji and the kanji just means "Made in Japan". This company made a whole brand of car and global marketing for their company just based on the fact that they're in Japan and products are made here. It's not a person's name or anything deep, it's just Made in Japan. That is hilarious. Another pun thing is an okonomiyaki restaurant by one classroom I teach at called Orange spelled like the color and fruit. The sign is also orange. But there's another sign with kanji where it's written as 俺ん家". The kanji is normally read orenchi but with local pronunciation and the " it's pronounced o-rah-n-ge and written phonetically as orange in romaji. I've never eaten there but I love that place just because of the signage and no one can appreciate it with me except for a few people.
Appreciating an authorititive voice that is transparent about that power and the opinion that guides that power. Basically, Mike, thanks for your honesty. This is an important step in critical conversation on the web.
LOVE the comedian thing you mentioned... There is also a practice of actually explaining a joke AS a joke, especially if the joke is hacky or a cheap laugh, which I think is along that same idea...
😂 Called out the alt-right trolls in the best way possible! Preach it, my man! It's your channel and if they don't like it, they can watch something else.
In regards to the last comment about people eating pizza with fork and knife, I've realized recently that not only they are not to be hated on, but they might even be right. Recently I realized that eating chips (or other snacks) with chopsticks is better. Because you don't get your hands dirty and you pace the eating better. Of course, when I talk about this people look at me like I'm a weirdo, but my approach has objective advantages over the traditional method. Likewise, overthinking a piece of media, or whatever else, is sometimes frowned upon because the traditional way is just to enjoy it and carry on with your life. But by overthinking it we extract more insight about it, which will likely enrich our lives in some way and give us more information about the world. We should be more open to other people's approaches to things that might appear strange to us, and try to understand why they do this, and what do they get out of it that we do not get from our own approach. And then maybe improve our own way of doing things.
Gosh I like the comment response format! Despite the inherent level of power Mike can exert over the forum (Which really only presents as his acknowledgement of a comment, not the creation or public nature of any comment), I really do feel like this is a realm of organic and thoughtful free conversation. It frequently reminds me of late night dorm room discussions. So thanks for that. As always, I got a lot out of it. :)
I think people don't like overthinking things because when you do you need to search further to find the novelty, and not everyone enjoys learning new things so that can be an unpleasant proposition for them. I think it's quite simple to resolve the two ideas though, simply respect those who don't want to know how things work by not explaining things to them they've asked you not to, and in return they respect those who do like to learn and understand that for them that's how they like to consume their experiences.
About the first comment: someone who isn't very familiar with a media is still a very useful contributor to the "overthinking" of it as they have the most common experience of that media: a superficial one. What effect that has is interesting to look at, and that cannot be done solely by people who know so much more about this media.
I have thoroughly enjoyed Idea Channel throughout its run, and I cant wait to see what you do next, Mike. I'll definitely be following that, whatever it ends up being!
That bit about deeply knowing "the funny" in a joke is a crucial point that I hope _everyone_ would be more aware of. This is exactly why knowing more about music, even technically and about any kind of music, can only enhance your musical experience, never dull it. I'm tempted to say "screw that surface level", because what you get once you're past it is *SO* much more interesting, intense and lasting.
About overthinking or understanding something removing the enjoyment of it, my go to example of the opposite is the rainbow. Understanding that a rainbow is just the light that is bathing us all the time, only passing through a prism, means that the whole world is constantly being showered by rainbows. And I think that's more beautiful.
People who complain about others overthinking plots and stuff confuse me. For me, a lot of the entertainment value of something comes from discussion with other fans in trying to work out gaps in story and the like.
After a piece of overthinking on Facebook, I was chided by somebody who told me to just enjoy whatever it was we were talking about. I replied, Ah, but this is HOW I enjoy it!" In truth, he was not telling me how to enjoy things. He was saying that my way was ruining his way. Which I am sorry for, but I think I have the right to my way.
I studied in Italy where the pizzas aren't cut and everyone uses a fork and a knife because that is literally the only way to eat them without making a fool of yourself. I guess you could cut it into American style slices and get pizza sauce and olive oil all over your hands while it flops around awkwardly if you want to eat it the "right way", but I'd bet that doing that would make you question if it really were the "right way". Now I'll eat it either way depending on what's easier. Whenever you see someone doing something you don't understand, it's always important to remember that what they're doing probably makes sense to them and is probably just something they do to make their life easier or more enjoyable.
In regards to how familiar you have to be with a piece of pop culture to critique it, I think there are a few guidelines: 1) You need to be familiar with what you're critiquing. It's like trying to critique something you only read the cliff notes version of. Its kind of weird. 2) You need to limit your critique to what you're familiar with. For example, a lot of modern multimedia properties have a lot of stuff in them. Any overly broad statement like 'there are no ______ in this piece of media' often come off as misinformed at best, and kind of malicious at worst. 3) Understanding the context surrounding stuff is important. Criticizing Irene Adler's role in the original Sherlock stories by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is kind of missing the point, as it told a story from a very different viewpoint compared to the norm in the late 1800s. To look at that and examine it solely through a modern viewpoint and conclude that Doyle was a sexist is kind of dumb. 4) Demanding that ________ shouldn't exist or be changed to suit you is a sure way to convince me that you're not reaching from a place of reason. Media that is genuinely harmful (as in actively advocating for the lessening of someone else's life) is the sole exception to this, for me. Most things (like seeing the male ideal on romance novel covers in a bookstore) only are really harmful if I let them be. Or other things like there being video games I don't like, or superheroes I can't relate to. People genuinely like them, and if they're not harming anyone, I feel that letting them be is important. The discussion about there being a place for other media which does represent me is important, but that discussion should never be about changing stuff other people like in exchange for my stuff. If I really like snickerdoodles, but everyone else is eating chocolate chip cookies, saying 'why don't people sell snickerdoodles' is an important question. Attempting to demand that all chocolate chip cookies should be made into snickerdoodles I think is unreasonable. People can have whatever opinions they want, of course. But those guidelines are the baseline for me to take your opinion about pieces of escapist entertainment (which is what most pop culture is) seriously. In short though, thanks for the ride, Mike, and best of luck Mike on your next journey!
As Mike explained at the start of this end, Idea Channel will not be continued by another team. All of the videos will stay here, all the related channels (IRC, Reddit, etc.) will still be there, but no one will "take up the mantle" of Idea Channel. That is because an Idea Channel without Mike isn't quite the Idea Channel. That new person would have different views, being a different person, and that would show in the show. If that new person was to instead recreate Mike's form of commentary and ideology, we would still have the Idea Channel we know but that new person would be restricted creatively and may not even enjoy recreating another's work. For these reasons, Idea Channel is not being passed on. It will not have a successor. But that doesn't mean everything will disappear once the last video airs.
there was a guy in Cambride, MA who'd spend his lunch outside my theatre and I swore he was you! after a week I wise up.... still wished it was you so I could (never) ask you things
Ah loved this, years of enjoyment that enhanced my ability to think creatively and scholarly especially the whole applying critical thinking to things im interested in instead of dry subjects shows you how you can can make these things important subjects of debate. While its sad that its over I think having a clear start and a end point makes it a defined subject for analysis and ofcourse emulation so use this as a tool to make your own idea channel guys.
I have been here since the homestuck video and never been on a comment response video. And now I never will, but in fine with that I'm not very good with words.
I'm really gonna miss when you finally shut down. Is there any way we can get you to change your mind about that??? BTW...I loved your answer to the pizza with a fork comment. 🤣
14:06 I find this point, about why you disregard such comments, *slightly* inaccurate, though I don't exactly disagree with you. When someone says "what about yellow-washing in Japan?" in response to a white-washing video, I wouldn't say that comment is strictly off-topic for the video. If you want to examine the practice in America of changing the races of characters, examining another comparable (not identical) action in another culture may provide insight, by comparing and contrasting the patterns and impact. However, what I think you object to in such a comment, to which I also object, is that the comment itself is disingenuous and fallacious. The thrust of the comment is not "how interesting, let's explore a similar situation", it is "I don't like the moral implications of this video and now I am going to do some moral equivocation so that I can feel better about it."
In these last videos you showed us a lot what worked, what was good. I was wondering what you think is something that you are the idea channel team failed at during those 5 years? Are there things that you attempted that didn't turn out the way you wanted it to? (can still be positive)
I'm really going to miss these talks we have. :) I think that once I create something, much like a conversation it gets recreated inside the head of the listener and becomes something new. So I as the creator don't get to say what it is out what it's about, that is left to your interpretation of said thing (piece of music, in my case). NEVER explain your work. :/
There's a Cracked Podcast, "6 Dumb Arguments (That Feel Like The End Of The World)" that I was reminded of when there was talk of using a knife and fork to eat pizza. Mike, you're a bigger man than I. I recognize, intellectually, that the argument presented is valid... but, by golly, does the memory of Trump eating a slice incorrectly drum up all the feels.
you have to realize that shows like this won't ever have topics that are socially instructive like the google leak recently. Noone actually wants to discuss racial and gender differences according to science, they just want to make their edgy videos around pop culture and get views. And yes, it does disappoint me that people with obviously curious and intellectual minds do not discus important issues to our society. Also, Richard Feynman didn't like people in authority, or social status.
"... or why believing oppressed populations is a good mental exercise." I don't think that this statement fit well with others that you were making. Would you/someone elaborate on what you/he meant by this?
He didn't say you should unquestioningly believe everything someone in a disadvantaged position says. It may be a good exercise to put yourself (not necessarily you, but a person who hasn't done this before) in another person's position and to try to understand why they might have different concerns or problems from yourself, whether it's a person in poverty, someone with a disability, people who are stigmatised, marginalised, or just trivialised. At least that's how I interpreted it.
If you have not watched it yet, you could have a look at their "Thinking with Others" video (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-sQ0pny1TA6U.html). The part where he talks about the "believing game" I think explains what this comment meant. For a more explicit answer, I think Mike did not mean "mental exercise" in a casual sense but in a deeper sense of engaging critically and with empathy.
19:14 I feel like this has parallels everywhere. If you get really into some food like wine, to the point that you now only want to drink good wine, some people are like "aw, you killed your ability to swing back a $10 bottle with us" but the person with the heightened senses is probably glad they can explore this item in the great depth that only comes from a lot of training.
gatekeepets or peoplse sitting in ivory towets saying you need to know everything before talking about it or even the idea of the "true fan" are just the worst
Yeah that idea comes from people misunderstanding origins of some of the ideas they're drawing from works. People who want to see something in a specific piece of media or someone who just wants everything to be political can attach an idea to anything with a little thought then act like it was ether intended from the start or that it screams their contrived nonsense enough to enough people that it doesn't make a real difference... when really the only reason that message is being interpreted and spread is that they're yelling it through a megaphone. That's not to say nothing has a intended meaning or that meaning derived by people has NO value but it needs to hold up to at least some level of scrutiny before we attribute those ideas to anyone but the person saying them.
Ert an I just want to say quickly that I also find it interesting that lose conditions are framed as "death," especially since they usually aren't permanent.
Here's a political thing you can say about Pac-Man: Its creator Toru Iwatani designed it specifically to appeal to girls because he noticed not many of them were going to arcades. That's why, for example, the ghosts are cute characters rather than scary. And then there's Ms. Pac-Man. First, there's a whole discussion about representation of genders: Pac-Man is just a yellow disc, but Ms. Pac-Man is a yellow disc with feminine signifiers: a bow, lipstick, and Cindy Crawford-inspired beauty mark. Pac-Man doesn't have any corresponding male signifiers like a beard; he's male by default. Second, Ms. Pac-Man was at one point MISS Pac-Man. But there's a cutscene where they have a baby, and someone at Midway or Namco didn't want Miss Pac-Man having a baby out of wedlock. "Ms." had come into widespread use in the previous decade, thanks to feminism, so they decided to call her Ms. Pac-Man. (But why not Pac-Woman?)
Appealing to a target audience isn't inherently political. I would argue that the Ms. Pac Man situation is only tangentially political to start with and wasn't a message anyone was trying to send. It was only made political later. For a game to have a political message it needs to have something that's a reaction to something that is a political topic. For example the blood code in Mortal Combat.
flaurne All art sends a message, whether it intends to or not. The act of targeting a particular audience is part of that message and is influenced by and influences the political and cultural norms of the time and place of it's creation.
I think that by not responding to people who disagree with the premise of an episode, you're only allowing a conversation from a single perspective. It's like if there was a discussion about what color to paint your house, but blue is not allowed to be an option.
Would you consider the white poor and working classes marginalized groups? If not, why not? I find that their problems are often ignored or trivialized, especially by the left leaning media.
What you said about the general overthinking arguments and the way comedians contemplate the 'funnyness' of jokes made me think of your recent surrealism episode. I've always been the kind of person who overthinks things, gets accused of so by my friends, and have generally realised I'm OK with it. I took the message of your surrealism video to be that sometimes you have to stop doing that and let the experience wash over you. I have often had trouble enjoying such things because I get frustrated trying to make sense of them (David Lynch films are a classic example). After I saw your video I resolved to give some classic surrealist works a second chance. Do you think it's possible to enjoy surrealism whilst still 'overthinking' it?
