Comparing the D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e Starter sets 

I got my start with the basic rules 83 red box and when I first got the PF2e Beginner Box I was startled by just how similar it is. The designers clearly knew that no basic starter box since had been as good so they took a lot of ques from it.

@@adamu.2674 I don't quite agree, the 1995 2e box was pretty good, it's hard to find now. I even liked the 3.5 box set which came with minis, durable cardbox maps, dice and a lot of components similar to Paizo's Pathfinder box seen here

The newer D&D boxes are better at onboarding new DMs, although I think both could use a bit more. The Essentials Kit is by far the best value of all of them, and is the only one that includes anything you can/will use at your table beyond playing the included adventure and moving on to the full rules. I feel like the original Starter Set was designed for "onboarding" already experienced players/DMs to the new Edition from previous editions. All those players need is the adventure, and it's a very good adventure for that, but the rest of the box is just air and a waste of money for what could have been a $10 MSRP booklet.

@@stormd I agree that the Essentials Kit is a better set if you want more components but the stater set adventure is superior to the Essentials Kit adventure, I have read and played both

@@Nexusofgeek I've read and played both too. I think the Lost Mine of Phandelver is a better adventure for DMs who have DMed before, whether in 5e or in previous editions, but Dragon of Icespire Peak is easier for absolute newbies who have no idea how to read and prep a module. LMOP definitely has a more memorable storyline, but you really have to read the whole thing front to back, taking notes, and make quite a few decisions about how to present various info and questlines to your players ahead of time, especially the first time they get to town, and the module just gives you 7 different quests in random order with very little guidance on how to give them to your players, and NONE on what order to give them in. DoIP is much more sandboxy and gamey, the players won't remember it much, but for learning to DM, it really holds your hand, "There's a bulletin board outside the mayor's house with 3 quests pinned to it, which one do you want to do? (turn to page x), and you don't really have to read more than a couple pages ahead at any point in the module. Also, LMOP is free online now, so the obviously best thing to do is buy the Essentials Kit, sign up for DND Beyond for the free copy, sequel adventures, and 1/2 price PHB, and get LMOP for free and play that too!

Pretty sure I mentioned that the GM guide included has tools teaching folks to be a GM, and that the 5e set has no equivalent.

@@IcarusGames I meant in the adventure itself while you run it. It warranted a bigger highlight in my opinion, because that aspect is pretty huge, specially when you compare it with DnD5e's vague adventure.

But the story lacked a narrative and the adventure didn’t give the GM advice for role play and social encounters. Something that people overlook by hyping the whole box. I ran the adventure and while it is a great gateway to the mechanics of the game, I felt like the stakes were not even that high to begin with. Compared to lost mine of phandelver, it lacked role play, social and interactive encounters to make it memorable. Least the pawn miniatures are fantastic.

@@simounobrien9096 how many newbies who never played a pen and paper game honestly want to roleplay out the gate?

Exactly! It really is everything you need to get started; includes progression info for players and some general GMing advice for GMs, as well as the bestiary. You could actually get a robust view as to whether you enjoy the game and experience a decent cross section of the mechanics without having to buy another book.

@@IcarusGames yeah, it's all pretty self contained and feels much more like a board game with the components and stuff so you could play it with some friends like a less bulky gloomhaven kinda of deal. Lots of ways to use what you have

100 %

Agreed. I am still to this day, years later using those extra components for play. The 5e one might be cheaper, but you get more than the asking price of the 2e set when you grab it. Meanwhile the 5e one isn't a ton of bang for your buck. 5e one is pretty much just the adventure and dice.

I mainly DM 5e but have run the PF2 starter box and it’s fantastic. It really helps with understanding the mechanics. Yes, it is hand-holdy but then that is what you want with a starter product. I also adored the art style. I think that it is a better introduction that LMoP. Perhaps if LMoP had a better introductory area complete with a breakdown of mechanics then it would be a little better. I mean LMoP has been fully fleshed out by people online (I’ve also seen a fantastic rendition of the adventure from the goblins POV) but how many first-time DMs are going to check online sources prior to running the adventure?

@@Ryotbh Agreed. Great comment. It's also a funny adventure as well. Subtle humor but a difficult boss fight. My youngest daughter held a Gust of Wind reaction which saved the party [the acid breath weapon.... phew]. If she hadn't, pretty sure most of the party would be in trouble [or worse]. It's fortunate the children were so strategic in approach.

Wow really? That is great design.

Yeah I still use the tokens from my PF1 beginner box every time I play in person!

You can also start The Abomination Vaults adventure path right after the beginner box too.

The DM support in the starter set (and largely throughout 5e) is really lacking IMO!

Agreed. Honestly, just looking at the difference in detail provided between Phandolin and Otari is a good indication that Paizo gives the GM a lot more to work with. That they continued to flesh the setting out with Troubles in Otari and Abomination Vaults is both a great marketing decision and a fantastic way to continue developing a perfect starting town.

@@IcarusGames it is a curious one. I think it is more designed for an experienced DM (or veteran player as you mentioned) to run beginners through as a ‘taster’ of D&D. We definitely got lost with myself (a first time DM) and my family (who sufficed as my test subjects).

@@Ryotbh this isn't surprising when you look anywhere else and see how much WoTC relies and abuses it's community to prop up it's unfinished products. We DMs have asked WoTC to fix things for years and they refuse to.

@@DarkDevotion Totally agree. I can safely say that 3rd party sources opened my eyes massively to D&D's potential. As I am a bit of a Cthulhu nut, I really enjoyed adding some of Sandy Petersen's 5e material to my campaign. I now tend to splash in a tonne of homebrew (well 3rd party!) rules into my campaigns (with feedback from the players, obviously!). In terms of WotC, I don't think I'm being too harsh when I say they haven't released a great product in a while now. I've got to the point where I skip most of their content and stick with 3rd party.

100%! You can see just how much the first run of 5e products, and actually 5e as a system is not designed for new people. That it simplified things and made it easier for players to get into the game I think is an accident rather than a conscious choice, because if they were making the system for new players, the starter set would have been better! The stormwreck isle starter set is a little better, it has redesigned character sheets and a slightly more robust introduction into what D&D is conceptually, but it's got overall less material than lost mines, and still doesn't introduce GMs into their role properly, or give them much support.

I own the essentials kit and the PF2 BB, and I can confirm the Pf box is still the better product for introducing not only a system, but also more generally how a fantasy ttrpg can work. The 5e essentials kit is a sampler-advertisement for buying more D&D products, not a tool for learning how to run a ttrpg game, play in a ttrpg game, or for learning a system. That's basically what it comes down to - the 5e kits (prior to this year, haven't seen the new one) are more akin to an interactive board game, and they're not at all designed as teaching tools or beginner onboarding. Taste-tests, maybe. A way to sample d&d before you drop $50-$150 on the core books. But it's simply not starting with the same goal in mind as the pf BB has. Which - WOTC can do, because they don't have to justify themselves or the game and it's "point" or "fun-factor" when they have universal brand name recognition. The EK gives you tools to play but it has no interest in teaching you how to play the game outside of those limited tools or how to design things yourself.

Yeah, of the 5e options I think the essentials kit gets my vote because it feels more complete.

I’d agree, though the manticore fight can get a little dicey!

@@Ryotbh If I remember right, it's supposed to be more of a diplomatic encounter unless you just push your luck!

You can catch the VODs in a playlist here: ru-vid.com/group/PL3cwve_r0qbFW-vk2IHZUMu4bq-hurOlG

Glad you liked it!

The inclusion of pawns and maps, at least, would have been nice, though. But I think the ~15 dollar price point justifies the lack of frills on the 5e box, IMO. I wouldn’t pay 40 for a starter box.

IMO the D&D starter set isn't worth more than its $15, and if it was written to be more beginner-friendly I wouldn't have an issue. But it's clear to me that when they were making the set (and even now, to a slightly lesser degree) they are being made for people who already have a level of understanding of what a TTRPG is, or have played an older edition. Whereas the PF2 box assumes you've never interacted with a TTRPG before and walks you through in a way that makes it much easier to learn. Having a stripped down version without the mat and pawns for a lower price point would be good, but all the documentation inside refers to those things so they've have to rewrite it!

That's a big oof right there. It's funny because it's such a GOOD comparison though. Both the 5th entry, both the most mass market. Both have communities that claim the 3rd one was the best, but really the 4th was my favourite 🤣

Oh boy, do I feel you on this! I definitely feel like in 5e either death isn't a concern, or its a TPK. Doesn't feel like much in between. That classic feel of delving the dungeon and life-threatening adventure does seem to be missing from 5e I think.

PF2e fixes all of these issues in intuitive fashion [imo], BUT is no longer DND [like PF1]. It's a different game; more balanced & strategic at every level. Easier to homebrew due to understandable, intuitive, scaleable chassis. It's truly a BRILLIANT game [from an old DND stalwart]... I'll always love DND, but I made the switch because I like the challenging nature of combat with the chess-like miniature movement. And, more importantly, it makes SENSE! Plus, the lore & adventure paths are the best in the business. It's funny because most homebrew or hard-core DND alternative rules are lifted from PF2e nearly whole cloth. At what point do people take the dive? This is why I advocate the Beginner Box. Unfortunately, even most PF1 players underestimate the need for PF2e. They still look at the DND offspring genesis & assume it's derivative of 5e etc.... Plus: Pathbuilder makes character creation easy. Foundry VTT & Talespire hold amazing potential.... That said, DND still rocks. I think 5e IS successful. My sensibilities just lean toward Paizo, who seem to actually love gaming & do it for the players. Hell, Paizo supports Archives of Nethys... which is a free database of the rules! Of course, I can't help but buy the books & miniatures etc... We live in amazing times for narrative TTRPGs. Game on!

@@davidwilliams4837 I never got to play 3e, 3.5 or 4, and I’m thinking PF is some hybrid baby of those. Wish I had the experience to know and maybe after I run Strahd in the original 1e… I’ll do something wacky like “Read Hand of Doom” in PF

@@ReustersPlace Strahd in 1e sounds 🔥

Very interesting comment! I understand what you are saying, and I too remember the feeling of dread from those ancient sessions when I started playing AD&D decades ago. That philosophy has been taken out of at least starter boxes in every modern ttrpg (and videogame) that I know of, on purpose. And the obvious reason is, you want your game to appeal to the most people possible, hard cores and casuals. That can certainly create players who expect things to be fair and balanced all the time, and that can indeed take a lot of the fun out of a game. Thankfully, though, in the case of ttrpgs, we are not limited to scripted events like a videogame and we can set our tone, difficulty and inject as much unbalanced fun as we want, in these new editions. It's up to you and in your hands. That being said, I am a big PF2e guy and from me you'll get: "PF2e is so brilliantly put together that it will absolutely support you as a GM and let you tune the difficulty and the feeling of dread as finely as any game possibly can. So I suggest you give that a try". :)

It's going to be super dependant on each individual. The box recommends 13+ which is about the region I would probably say is good.

Thanks, Matt!

@@IcarusGames Absolutely! I have been considering trying out PF2e, so it is really helpful to know how good the beginner box is.

I'd grab it now. It'll be next year before they finish releasing the core books from the remaster, and there's nothing concrete been said about a new starter set yet. They've said eventually they will inevitably make a new one, but we don't even have a vague year of release for it.

I chose the phandelver box because in my experience its by far the most common one used by folks getting into 5e, so is a better representation of what most newcomers would be experiencing.

I think in VTT form, it's not worth the $40. So much of the value IMO comes from the physical goods you get in the box, many of which don't *feel* as valuable in digital format.

I think that's totally fair!

Honestly I think that's a bonus for new players though. I certainly didn't want my first game to be weeks worth of comittment (from me and my friends). Never ran LMoP in the end because of that, ran a small oneshot by someone on DMSGuild instead.

That's sorted, thanks for the heads up! Yeah, the price difference is definitely a consideration, but you just get some much more in every sense in the PF2 box, I'd rather spend the extra.

As mentioned in the video, I chose the phandelver starter set as it is still by far the most common way people get started in 5e.

I know, still, I got the one I mentioned as a start, also exactly because what is in it.

Well pf1e = 3.5 pretty much. People have called it 3.75e with the games being so compatible that you can technically take stuff from 3.5e without destroying balance and very little rework into 1e (Paizo started out making 3rd party stuff for DnD 3.5e but due to a lot of legal uncertainties surrounding 4e (among other things) they started their own IP)

I think that's a good point. D&D has the brand recognition that they don't need to work as hard to make "good" products, they just need to get people to pick it up.

Nowhere in the 5e starter box does it direct you to these digital resources that were supposedly available, so they may as well not exist from the POV of this as a product. The 5e box is a great set for an existing dungeon master wo is either experienced with a previous system, RPGs in general, or 5 itself to run a newbie group through and be there to answer questions and guide them. It is not a starter set that's built for a whole group of people who've never picked up any RPGs before - it's teaching tools are near non existent. PF2 isn't a dumbed down version of PF1; it's a pretty different game, but not dumbed down. The PF2 set includes a short adventure specifically intended to teach the rules of the game.

@@IcarusGames and did you compare both these adventures to see which is better or to be fair to the 5e set? It appears you had your mind made up which one you thought was better but from my pov it doesn't seem like a fair comparison at all. "It's a different game" you say, yes a streamlined version it's like they wanted to go from 1e which was like unofficial D&D 3.75 to 2e to "streamline" and simplify things, but again, why did they even feel the need to change it???

@@Nexusofgeek , Saying Pathfinder 2e is a dumbed down version of Pathfinder 1e is like saying D&D 5e is a dumbed down version of D&D 4e. It appears you had your mind made up which one you thought was better but from my pov it doesn't seem like a fair comparison at all. "It's a different game" you say, yes a streamlined version it's like they wanted to go from 3.5 which was official D&D 3.0 to 4e to 5e "streamline" and simplify things, but again, why did they even feel the need to change it???

Explained in the video; it's the most popular one, most commonly recommended, and the new set isn't available outside of North America for a few months.

Maybe, but $40 to get into a new hobby isn't that outlandish in the grand scheme. Lord knows I spent a lot more than that on wargaming starter sets 🤣

The rationale behind the choice of set to compare is pretty clearly explained in the video.

Then they should have updated the starter set to include some essential content.

No one loses anything by having color coded dice that help speed up the game and remove a barrier from new players. Not even accounting how accessibility needs might make color coded dice much easier, there's nothing wrong with making games as easy and fun as possible to pick up for new players. If picking up the red dice means the player doesn't have to devote mental investment in counting the faces of their die, and can instead think more about what their character is doing this turn, isn't that a good thing?

The most common way that all RPG players get started (this was true 30 years ago when I first GM'ed and it's true now) is that there's one wannabe GM in their friend group who convinces them to try playing. In a situation like that, there by definition isn't any investment yet from the players (as opposed to the GM) and anything you can do to reduce the initial learning curve and make the game run smoother at the table drastically increases the chances of success. Once you've got them hooked, that's when the learning and investment takes place.

One doesn't have to count the sides, all they have to do is see if 12 is the highest number on the dice.

I can tell you have never played with TTRPG newbies before.

Sorry but all this shows is how clueless you are. Just because *you* know a d12 from a d8 doesn't mean everyone can instantly determine one type from another. You seem to be saying "How dare you try and play an RPG if you can't tell the dice apart". Colour coded dice are ideal for new players and a Beginners Box is the ideal place for them. What we don't need are plonkers who look down on others because they haven't played many RPGs before and are unfamiliar with dice.

Yes, you're right, how dare I compare two products meant to be an introduction to a hobby on how well they do that job, and what a dumb idea to focus on how they communicate core information 🙃 I'm comparing the two most popular entry points and sets intended to introduce new folks to the respective games. 5e has a new set, but its excluves to Target in NA for another few months, so there's not much point comparing that, as most of the world doesn't have access to it.

@@IcarusGames Yeah...try comparing the updated Essentials Kit, their current starter kit... Just saying intentionally comparing an old starter set when a newer version is available, or simply not waiting for the latest one, seems very one sided. You're obviously a fan of PF2 over D&D 5E, and that's ok, but if you look objectively even between the 2 you did compare, the D&D one will have a family of 4 playing the game in way shorter time then the rules heavy PF2. Just seems you comparison is really heavily skewed here and not very objective is all im saying. You keep saying you would want more rules and stuff to read, but most people picking up a box in the board game aisle, aren't looking for a hour or 2 of rules reading. And seems THAT is exactly what the D&D one focuses on. Keep in mind I'm not saying the Pathfinder box isn't still better. Just saying the comparison seems almost apples to oranges.

I stated in the video why I specifically chose this starter set. Despite its age, and despite the availability of others, this is still by leagues and bounds the more commonly recommended 5e starter set, so is the one a new player more likely to encounter. What I want isn't rules for rules sake, but rather clearly written guidance on how to deal with the numerous things that come up in play. From the DM perspective, all of 5e lacks in this regard, leaving too much to DM fiat rather than having written rules that clearly state how things work, which would speed up play. PF2 is marginally more complicated than 5e, but not nearly as much as the common discourse claims. Once characters are created most of the extra rules exist on the GM side and serve to give clear instructions where 5e only gives vague suggestion.

@@Paulie_explains_everything the essentials kit is honestly not that much better. I've compared them myself before. 5E Essentials Kit - $24.99 MRSP Included: Essentials Kit Rulebook, Dragon of Icespire Peak adventure, DM’s ScreenFull color double-sided poster map of The Sword Coast/Phandalin, Blank character sheets, Cards for initiative, magic items and conditions, “Sidekick” cards, Card holder, Polyhedral dice set (11 dice) [minimum of 1 player plus GM, up to 5 players] this is 128 pages in total, and the booklets are squarebound rulebooks, with one having a simple grey dragon outline image, and the other having the full color image cover. Some extras it does have: it has a flimsy DM screen, which the BB doesn't have the cards, while very lightweight cardstock, are handy to hold, and pass out for items, conditions, and sidekicks. I like these, but the cards in the BB for reference use are a heavier cardstock, glossy, and going to hold up to a LOT more wear and tear over time. it has more dice. the maps don't include specific mini-adventure maps for each quest, since it's only one poster map. you get more mini-quests for the larger DoISP adventure in the box, but there's absolutely no instruction on how to write your own adventures or campaigns, or what that would really entail once you finish the adventure. for that, you need to shell out the $50 for a DMG. Pathfinder 2e Beginner's Box - $39.27 [or $40] The Pathfinder Beginner Box includes an 80-page Hero's Handbook, including rules for character generation, a solo adventure, skills, spells, and equipment. A 96-page Game Master's Handbook, containing an introductory adventure, over 20 pages of monsters, rules for building your own adventure, and magic items. Four premade characters so you can jump right into the action and four blank character sheets if you want to make your own hero. Over 100 character and monster pawns to use on the full-color double-sided adventure map. Four game reference cards to help players remember their actions. A complete set of polyhedral dice, including a d20, d12, d10, d8, d6, and d4. 176 pages total, the booklets here are comparable in quality to the other PF adventure path booklets. Both have full color illustrations, and the covers seem to be better stock than the Essentials Kit. You can choose from 4 pre-generated characters or make your own. so first, the page difference is NOT extreme. it's just under 50 pages in difference. 20 of those pages are just monsters for use in additional games and the monsters in the adventure, not rules! so really, there's just 30 pages difference. But those 30 pages mean more GM advice, and instructions on how to create your own maps, adventures, quests/campaigns, plus additional treasure/items and hazards, etc. It's not really a whole lot of more rules, per se. they both have the following sections: role of the gm/dm, basic first tips and gameplay goals, how to improvise ability checks, an intro to the setting of some kind, explaining what the boxed texts are for/what to read, maps and encounter keys, a short mention of character creation, the adventures, monster stats, and equipment. things the pathfinder bb has, but the essentials kit doesn't have: A definition of a published adventure and what it does expectations of what players may do or not do in a game in general how to run combat step by step for the first time definitions of rpg terms 'campaign,' 'adventure', 'encounter' and 'types of adventures' etc, and how to prepare for/plan and then how to both start and end a session. how to handle player spotlights guidelines for how to quickly guess how to make a ruling if you don't know the answer to something or want to make it up (beyond the standard "make the game your own" and "it's okay if you don't know the ruling in the moment") how to run exploration or downtime and improvise new activities how to handle encounters, skipping them, ending them, how to choose monster actions taken how to determine xp for encounters and hazards quickly in a table beyond simple DCs, an expanded look at how a dc works, and how to set one (theres a small sample in EK, but not as extensive) how to draw a map how to build an encounter ideas for other adventure starts you can make up how to determine appropriate treasure rewards how to build a campaign and campaign environments building hazards/traps i would still recommend the BB over the EK if I was comparing them. The EK is meant to advertise buying more D&D books. you're right it's meant to be bought by people looking at board games. It's not an introduction to learning how to run a ttrpg game, it's a board-gameized version of a ttrpg.

@@Paulie_explains_everything I've bought the essentials kit! The props are neat, but the adventure is absolutely godawful for new DMs. There's more traps for the DM to get to run unfun encounters and TPKs than the dungeons have traps for the players.