I grew up in a very devout Roman catholic family. Left to protestantism at 18 years old, fast forward to 24 years old and am now Orthodox. I wish i converted years ago. God bless you. Christos anesti! ☦️
I get the lightweight answers. What I found helpful is Vol 1 and 2 of Fr John Romanides "Empirical Dogmatics", (excellent explanation of Orthodox view of revelation vs Prot. or RC's), "Orthodox Spirituality" by Fr Dumitru Staniloae, "Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church by Vladimir Lossy and all of St Ignatius Brianchaninov's works. As per the "westernization" of the Church, for a more nuanced academic understanding, both Fr George Florovsky's "Ways of Russian Theology Part 1, vol. 5 for what happened in Russia, and Christos Yannaras' "Orthodoxy and the West" for what happened in Greece, are fabulous. Also I thought it so funny about the difference in protestant vs RC views of finding some absolute truth to cling to in Orthodoxy. But as for me coming from a protestant background, that became rather like bobbing in the nihilistic North Atlantic Seas, to come to Orthodoxy that had the Nicene Creed, was sufficient to bring me to tears every time I heard it in liturgy for 5 years. To have SOMETHING to cling to was more than a life raft. And Orthodoxy's epistemology (the pure in heart shall see God) was FAR more "secure" than having any magisterium.
Christ is Risen ! Thank you Clayton! Beautiful video. I grew Catholic just after V2. I was still surrounded by parents, grandparents, etc. and the cultural presentation of pre-V2 Catholicism (TV, movies). It was rather odd to try and connect the dots of the differences while growing up Novus Ordo. Eventually, I ‘discovered’ Protestantism and left RC as a young adult. Even while being a virulently anti RC Protestant, it REALLY bothered me when people assumed that the knew ‘all about’ Catholicism because they read a Jack Chick tract or something. There seemed to be no understanding of the ‘intent’ of RC practices or the experience of the organic nature of church life and practice. Anti RC screeds (and I shouted many of my own …) seemed to me to swerve right into ‘bearing false witness against thy neighbor.’ To cut to the chase - after many and various Protestant and Anabaptist journeys, I and my family entered the Orthodox Church. I can understand your five frustrations. I have also been guilty of causing similar frustrations… Do I wish that I had become or truly encountered Orthodoxy earlier in life? Yes. However - I think that the journey (and your journey, and the other commenters’s journeys) have given such wisdom and experience that is profitable. Looking forward to more from you Clayton!
Hello! I am glad to see another former Roman-Catholic coming to Christ's One Holy! I was born Italian/Roman Catholic but have been attending an Antiochian Eastern-Rite parish for about a year. One of the only Traditional Latin Mass FSSP churches for hundreds of miles is actually only a couple of minutes from me, and a TLM monastery is also very close. I still chose to go the extra miles for the Orthodox Church, and it was 100% worth it The tie-breaker for me personally was the liturgics and the constant attacks on them. I do think coming to Orthodoxy showed me that a lot of people within Orthodoxy also do not understand Catholic concepts or were pointing out differences that weren't actual differences. Additionally, I also remember the ignorance I experienced coming from Catholicism, just like your experience! I am often getting treated like a Protestant and my catechism took as long as a Protestant's, which is still and always will be quite confusing. Moreover, similar to your experience my legalistic mind was also annoyed I could not refer to Canon ABC of ABC Council of ABC year, it was by far not easy. The contemporary Orthodox saints' writings also focus far more on mysticism than scholarship. In the end, it is definitely worth it, and I'm glad you have also come to the church!
In terms of your catechism taking just as long as a Protestant, sometimes that’s not strictly in the priest’s hands. I was told to have about a year of catechesis no matter what.
Found this fascinating, thanks! I am an Orthodox who has attended a “Trad” RC church in a musical role for four years. While there are many similarities, in my experience I can’t agree with what you said about the role of the Theotokos in Orthodoxy vs. “Trad” RC. I have been personally amazed by the role she seems to play in the RC church. Almost all private prayer and devotions seem to be directed to her. She seems to overshadow even God in some ways. I have shared some of what I have seen there with other (cradle) Orthodox, and they, too, found it “over the top”. I think it’s interesting that you found the two prayers you read to be similar … I found them extremely different! For what it’s worth, the role of the Theotokos and the prevalent rationalism are the two major differences I have found between Orthodoxy and “Trad” Catholicism. Blessings on your efforts here!
If that is your view, it is definitely not an accurate impression of traditionalist Catholics. Moreover, if you look at the content of Orthodox prayers and RC prayers, you see that there is not much daylight between them in intensity. However, many of those Orthodox prayers are less popular now than what they used to be.
Some good observations here. I came from a Protestant background, but I can understand how the seeming downplay of the role of the Saints or the Theotokos could be off-putting or confusing to a Catholic. But I think it's the "spoonful of sugar" that helps the medicine go down for a lot of Protestants for whom the veneration and intercession of the Saints is completely foreign. Not to be condescending, but it sort of similar to how you often have to explain things to a child who doesn't yet have the context or ability to grasp the whole concept of something. You give them enough to go on and as they mature, so does their understanding of the issue. I'm 10 years in now as an Orthodox convert and my relationship with the Saints continues to grow and mature (which many miles still to go). Thanks for sharing your journey!
Yes, but, of course, there is a danger that someone becomes so used to the simple answer, or more reductive answer, that they are scandalized when they encounter the whole thing on display.
RE: the Theotokos - I like telling Protestants that we are sort of like the Catholics, but we kiss more stuff and worship Mary more. I particularly like pointing out stichera for the Feast of the Dormition. Take this one from the Litiya, for example: "The Spotless Bride, the Mother of Him in whom the Father was well pleased, she who was foreordained by God to be the dwelling place of His union without confusion, delivers today her blameless soul to her Creator and her God. The spiritual powers receive her *with the honours due to God,* and she who is truly the Mother of Life departs unto life, the lamp of the Light which no man can approach, the salvation of the faithful and hope of our souls." (emphasis added; from The Festal Menaion, STS Press). Perhaps scandalizing the Protestants might not be the best method of evangelization. RE: "Western Rite" - It seems to me that the "Western Rite(s)" should not exist at this time. It is fun to read through the texts as a matter of academic comparative liturgics, but what exists today isn't really a living tradition. Instead, it is a recreation or adaptation rites which have been Byzantinized to a greater or lesser degree. It is not a part of the Church of Rome or Church of England coming back into communion with the Church, but rather the Church of Antioch or the Church of Russia inventing a new rite using Western models. As things stand today common modes of worship and common theological expression are necessary for witness to the unity of the Church. Certainly, if there is ever a re-union with the Latins, a sort of Western Rite will necessarily exist, but it would be a continuation of the living tradition of the Church in the West, modified not to make it more Byzantine, but amended to avoid confusion as to what Orthodoxy is. Frankly, I am not sure we are prepared to become a multi-rite Church at this time. A re-union first with the non-Chalcedonian Churches, whose culture of worship and theological expression are much closer to ours than the Catholics or any of their wayward children, would be a way to get used to intercommunion with Churches that confess the same faith in different terminology using a different rite. If we can make that work, then we can see about an Orthodox Western Rite. As it is today, however, the Western Rite is simply Uniatism in reverse - in communion with the Church, yet practicing neither the Orthodox nor the Catholic faith, but rather a sort of confusing mix of both that grounds the Christian in neither. An interesting question is just how large of a Church coming back into communion would be sufficient. For example, the idea that the Church of Poland is part of the Roman Catholic Church is Catholic ecclesiology, not Orthodox. If the Latin bishops of Poland were all to renounce Rome and become Orthodox, it stands to reason that they would become the hierarchy of an autocephalous, or at least autonomous, Orthodox Church using, mutatis mutandis, the rite they have been using from time immemorial. A parish here or there, on the other hand, doesn't seem sufficient to me. But what if the SSPX were to seek re-union with Orthodoxy. The SSPX has something like 3 bishops and 700 priests. That is half the number of bishops and 3x the number of priests in the autocephalous Church of Albania. However, the SSPX is spread around the world with no canonical territory. Can that be considered a "Church?" Would we count it as the Church of Switzerland (where the SSPX headquarters is located)? How about France or the US (where the most and second-most priories and chapels are)? These are interesting thought-exercises, but it seems to me that they will remain only that for the foreseeable future.
And, of course, there is an autocephalous Orthodox Church of Poland that is Byzantine. I don't really have a view on whether our church CAN adapt to having multiple rites, but I do think the Orthodox Church and the Byzantine Rite is universal enough to satisfy the spiritual needs of anyone-- Western, Eastern, Asian, African, or Polynesian.
Have you read the late Fr. Matthew Baker's essays? You'd appreciate them. I think he was a convert from Catholicism as well. I have the impression that many Orthodox get confused by the appellation "eastern", leading to a sort of Orientalism-in-reverse vis-à-vis the west-when in reality "eastern" simply refers to the eastern Roman empire. This obscures the fact that Orthodoxy is arguably a modern form of pre-Tridentine Catholicism. Whence I find that Orthodoxy actually resonates with much of medieval Catholic Christianity-even more sometimes than modern day Catholicism, traditional or not.
I was raised Baptist, became Catholic, and am now Orthodox. I hope you persevere and join! Lots of prayers to the Theotokos, St. Spyridon, and St. Matrona for you!
You've hit a lot of nails on the head, as I'm a Latin Catholic, that would love to EASILY become Orthodox, but unfortunately, and especially, because of Orthodox Priests, that were former protestants, I've yet to become Orthodox, even after 10yrs of being 90% Orthodox in heart, I'm still 10% Latin Catholic on paper.
@@TheRomanOrthodox I don't attend at all, I haven't in some years. I attend inconsistently the Novus Ordo Mass. I continue to pray, and hopefully will soon be able to make a decision.
I TOTALLY get your take on Orthodox priests who were former protestants - I think maybe it takes a generation or two to shed that whole protestant mindset. I am a convert of 40 yrs myself and FAR prefer the old ROCOR priests WAY before the ROCOR-MP merger - that's a different world of the heart. It has been difficult for me to find that breed in the USA, but well worth the search.
Some of these probably apply to someone coming from Lutheranism as well (such as myself) at least to some extent. The arguments I often would hear against Protestantism would assume that I was a nondenominational Baptist or something, but Lutherans don’t need to be convinced that Baptism does something or of the real presence. Probably just a universal human issue of people not being aware of everything that every group teaches.
Thank you for this, but as someone who has stopped going to his Catholic parish and started going to a local Orthodox parish(?) I was hoping for more of the nuts and bolts, i.e. "legal" proceedings regarding making the switch.
Yes, Orthodox prayers tend to be more direct, as if Mary herself can act while Catholic prayers tend to focus more on her role as an intercessor. Those are generalizations, of course, but I think they are true. As for differences in soteriology, I really do think that the Marian prayers in both traditions have their sources in texts and piety that predate precise delineation between Latin and Greek theology. Even those that are very late would not have come from the strict systematic theological traditions on either side.
@@TheRomanOrthodox I suppose I’m thinking of the Catholic juxtaposition of Mary as merciful intercessor in relation to her Son as arbiter of justice. This relationship seems more pronounced in private revelation than Liturgics but it’s there. Sort of a retooled Marcionism.
You do not have to say traditionalist and Catholic as if they are separate. Someone that goes to the Latin Mass or Byzantine Rite is no more traditional than the Novus Ordo goers. One can enjoy the TLM, but they shouldn’t use that as a reason to reject Vatican 2. America needed Vatican 2 and the Novus Ordo to evangelize. I would not be Catholic if it weren’t for Vatican 2.
Well, that depends on the type of traditionalist. For example, many traditionalists do not think that those who follow Vatican 2 are Catholics, and many Catholics feel the same about traditionalist Roman Catholics. I am speaking about a particular movement here, of which I was a part. There are so many variations, but they do have some common features. Also, your user name doesn't really do a good job representing your faith. I highly recommend changing it.
@@TheRomanOrthodox I made it when I was 19. I forget that it’s my @. Doesn’t matter to the discussion anyway. The “traditionalist” movement is a movement of borderline schism. Rejecting the Pope’s authority, even when it comes to Vatican 2, is a heretical Protestant thing and a schismatic orthodox thing. Jesus explicitly stated that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church. Seems to be proving right since the orthodox just ordained a woman.
