also fwiw Surgery is kinda unique in that you can show interest via actions (e.g. not looking around, handing instruments, predicting next steps, etc). For medicine, you definitely want to ask stuff. It shows you're engaged, which attendings def notice
Very VERY accurate. Nothing is more annoying and transparent than the med student that NEEDS to show themselves as interested. In reality, being quiet and acting naturally is easier to do and much more enjoyable to be around.
Yeah it’s sucks because it’s a fine line. My epiphany here was essential that it’s better to err on the side of quiet and risk seeming disinterested because you can always speak up and show interest later, but it’s much harder to un-annoy someone if you already spoke too much
I think this says a lot more about the surgeons you had rotations with, than how med students should present themselves hahaha Although I partly agree with the message
Dude...my surgeons wouldn't stop talking to me and asking me questions. It was like pimp-a-thon, but they genuinely wanted to fill my knowledge gaps. Gotta choose your surgeons for rotations really carefully:P
Man, this always looked like the toughest part of med school to me. Stressing about how you demonstrate your value when everything that happens there would be objectively better if you weren’t around.
I think unfortunately it depends on the surgeon you’re working with. I had been given this advice - to shut up so the surgeons can concentrate and only speak when spoken to - and no one acknowledged me the whole week. At the end of my first week of surgery clerkship I asked the surgeon if she had any feedback for me. She lit into me about how I wasn’t engaged all week and made it very clear that I wasn’t engaged and didn’t care. She lectured me about how it’s a huge honor to be in the OR and I should at the very least act like I’m interested. I insisted that I was but she said “then show it and ask some questions. How are we supposed to know you’re engaged if you’re just standing there.” Got the same feedback from the fellow. So heads up - depends on the doc.
You shouldn't say "but I WAS interested" or anything like that. It's better to say I didn't want to get in the way. Or you seemed busy I didn't want to bother you. Or even be like I genuinely had no idea where to begin to ask questions because I was too confused about what was going on. I didn't want to ask because I was afraid that I should know already. Etc etc. like be honest about the actual reason why you didn't ask questions, chances are they will be understanding. You gotta say more than "it was the opposite of what you thought was going on" because that makes no sense. The correct answer is "something completely different that you didn't consider as a factor was going on, it had nothing to do with my level of interest"
I always tried to ask questions in surgery. Surgeons always said "read about my procedure before you come into the OR next time." I learned to sing the quiet song as well.
I feel bad man. In a few years this will all fade away. It's a tough thing to be a 3rd year med student. I used to over analyze everything trying to make attendings happy. It would backfire often.
I did the same except I must admit I found it difficult to stay focused when you’re quiet. I found myself daydreaming or thinking of what to do afterwards. Then all of a sudden you don’t realise where everyone’s up to and you get asked a question that throws you off guard and makes you look like you’re not paying attention. And so the quietness is then perceived as disinterest. So TLDR it’s a fine line of being quiet but staying focused at the same time.
Your mileage may vary. I definitely got evals saying I was disengaged and disinterested when I was really just trying not to be annoying and get in the way lmao. The annoying behavior is still rewarded more often than not
It’s so funny to see that there is basically no difference between med school in Germany and USA when it comes to insecurities and behavior in general. Great vid
Forgot in my other comment... 1. You should definitely do a series of these reflections. I support that. 2. Where did you get those sick safety glasses? The ones with the pink/blue strip running across the top. 🙏
Med school is a rough and confusing time for a group of mostly socially awkward people being thrust into high pressure situations without a clear role and being told to “perform well” with their future prosperity on the line.
WOW, my mother had a BIG needle like that for sewing+repairing our rugs !! One needed a hemostat/pliers to hold onto it and push the needle through the thick rug. I love watching funny medical videos.
I believe the issue is when you overthink it. It's possible to be genuinely interested without making it seem like you're putting on an act of trying to seem interested. But yes, there's definitely a lot to be said for just shutting the fuck up lol I think moderation is important too and being able to read the room
because the actual surgical outcome is more important than scoring points. talking just for the sake of it when they're focused on the surgery is demonstrating the opposite.
This is an interesting perspective, but I don’t think it is universal. As a medicine resident, if a med student I worked with talked continuously, I might be a bit annoyed, but I would never tell them to shut up or write anything negative in their feedback. For myself and a lot of my female colleagues, if we weren’t talking or “showing we were interested” during med school, particularly on surgery, we would get written feedback that we were “too quiet” “not assertive enough” “not confident” etc… but then of course if we talked “too much” we were being “too aggressive” and “annoying/whiny”…. I think the takeaway should be that when dealing with assholes (which there seem to be more of in surgery) no matter what YOU do, you cannot win. Their behavior will always be a reflection of themselves and their own issues, rather than you. Good luck to all medical students, rotations suck sometimes, but you will make it through, and hopefully remember as you move through the system, to treat people how you wish you had been treated ❤
Preston you’re right about some things but not all. Do i know what I’m talking about?I’ve been teaching and evaluating medical students for 30 years. True, you don’t want to be annoying and that’s important. And if you’re rotating on something you have no interest in, being silent will not be a problem and you’ll be viewed at least neutrally if not positively . But if you want to go into the specialty you’re rotating on, being silent is not going to get you a letter of recommendation. You should read on the case or patient and ask one and only one insightful question that is intelligent and that shows you actually read something and that you have some knowledge of what’s going on. Ask the residents after rounds “anything I can help with?” And check in later and ask same. Only do that twice not every hour. If they ask you to do something, do it immediately and do it correctly . Best advice I can give.
@@arcraus In that case, if OR specific, being quiet and helpful in the OR is a good strategy to take. Just make sure you know the answer if they think you're bored and want to make sure you're awake.
I think it's a healthy balance that you have to figure out with your preceptor. I also have found gender dynamics to play a role as I find male surgeons are much more talkative to female med students and vise versa. Not sure if you saw that in your experience
as weird as it may sound in Polish med schools being quiet is required from the begining - silence is a form of respect and you may speak only if your question is smart and shows that you already know a lot. when a student asks something it's a huge deal and it doesn't happen very often. most of the times when someone asks something quite easy they are being then laught at for it. so you learn realy fast to just shut up and pretend you understand everything. it probably isn't the best approach to learning but that's just how it is.
I think it depends on where you train in med school as in the UK; the hospital staff actually like a student who is engaged, and does ask question; no they don't have to come across as smart but just genuinely interested.
You’re going to be a fantastic psychiatrist 💜 Also, I’m not in the medical field, but I LOVE your channel! You’re so hilarious and insightful at the same time. I listen to you talk about/watch your skits about…any topic at all. Glad you eventually knew when to stop “being quiet” 🌞
Assume this is meant for humor, but I appreciate the insight in advance of med school. Providers shouldn't be occupied with themselves. Glad your vids are a thing.
What?! No?! I’m a nurse. Pls ask questions… I don’t know where you live but in Switzerland, where I live, we don’t like quiet students the seem uninterested and bored. Pls ask questions even if you think they’re dumb. And try to foresee the next step and try to think along with the other nurse.
Surgeons I've been on rotation with asked me questions NON-STOP, I wished I could have been able to be more quiet lol But some surgeons will be offended by a quiet student and take it the wrong way... I had a med student I was working with be completely silent during rounds and surgery cases and always hang to the back. Sometimes he wouldn't even enter the patient's room when all of us went in during rounds. He never helped with changing wound dressings or getting supplies unless directly asked to by a resident. The rest of us kind of understood how to read the room and anticipate what our residents and attendings wanted from us (after about a week of working with them), and being able to have things handy during morning rounds, but he never did any of this. As a result, he looked extremely un-interested and our chief resident pulled him aside to talk to him about his behavior :( So if you're going to be more quiet, read the room and be prepared to help out actively during morning rounds or scrub in if asked to. And look interested with your eyes, nod a lot when attendings are lecturing you, don't just hang to the back and be quiet.
My first surgery: -Surgeon: Have you ever done a suture before? -Me: Heeee... a few times on a banana.... -Surgeon: Ok show me My second surgery, 2h later -Surgeon, to the residend: Ok, I will let you two finish -Me: Wow ! Excuse me, what ?? On a hand ?? Best surgeon ever ! XD I did 5 sutures that day lol
Hmm I appreciate the sentiment but can’t help but feel uncomfortable with the advice of making ourselves smaller and more easy to digest\ignore just so those supervising us have it easy. Do what you want. You are there to learn! Ask questions, pay detailed attention, offer to help out, ask for help, be quiet and contemplative. The choice is yours. Never change yourself for the benefit of someone else. I respectfully disagree with the ideology that our sole purpose as med students is to be palatable to our superiors, this gets really exhausting really quickly and can spiral into problematic self esteem and identity issues. Med students have always been and will always be part of the medical community and should be accepted as such.
Completely agree. Unfortunately I could not follow that advice for myself. My social anxiety has gotten so much worse since 3rd year bc I am constantly afraid of looking dumb/ useless/ annoying that I don't even feel like I can take up space in nonmedical areas anymore...
I agree with you. Inasmuch as it's important to know when to speak and when not to in life in general, I think that for med school training, no student should have to feel like they have to shrink to appease their residents/attendings. If you're talking a mile a minute, that's an issue. But if you are asking a few genuine questions and they still see you as "annoying", in my opinion, that says more about themselves, their tolerance, and perhaps a consequence of their notoriously brutal training conditions.
@@annie-mari I am really sorry to hear this and sending you a virtual hug! Maybe you should consider seeking professional help to navigate these feelings. I have found in my own experience that unfortunately a lot of medical training is personality politics and learning coping strategies for these scenarios early on will pay dividends in the long run! Best wishes
I’m just a premed, so frankly this comment likely holds no water, but the fact that this kind of culture exists in some capacity and is rewarded drives me up a wall a little. For some context, I got caught in a weird spot after the height of COVID when things were beginning to “reopen” where shadowing was kinda the only opportunity I could reliably get. So I have spent somewhere around 400 hours shadowing with a ~50/50 split OR/clinical. I got sucked into surgery as an interest after being awake for my own surgery. I just kept going back because I loved learning by seeing. I got a real variety of experiences there. Obviously, there’s no evaluation to speak of here, but some surgeons clearly preferred I did not say anything. Others wanted me to keep asking questions and some even “pimped” me. Some became perplexed at my behavior if I remained silent. It felt like I just had to get lucky with my reading of the situation a lot of the times. I often thought as a premed shadower, my job was to stay out of the way and stay quiet, but I came out of this not really sure what I was supposed to do because of how differently I was treated. Of course, the stakes for me were nonexistent, but it really made me think about being a med student. How is someone who is in a position of learning, which means sometimes asking questions that may reveal gaps in knowledge, meant to succeed if the markings of a “good student” are so all over the place? The general standard should be asking questions that enable your learning and are genuine, and that should be followed as literally as possible. I’m not sure how that could even begin to be standardized. As for dealing with the current culture, sure, it can be useful to use the ambiguity of silence to avoid the ground zero for overthink that this whole experience is, but that also certainly cuts down on the ability to learn. Likewise does the pressure to ask questions that demonstrate content knowledge, because those questions may invite false impressions on the abilities of the student or waste time. I don’t even know where to begin on a what solution to the issue would look like, assuming I am interpreting it properly from my distant stance, and that makes me a little wound up on this seemingly damned if you do, damned if you don’t issue. I really hope that eventually something is found that lets med students learn without feeling like there’s so much judgement sat upon them. Perhaps it’s not even possible, given how much judgement is often self-amplified. Who knows.
But you're surrounded by such passive aggressive overbearing assholes that the only way to be noticed is to be silent is mind-boggling that you thought this was a positive, they broke you, you didn't figure something out. You are broken by them, you were abused into silence. This is the terrible way to educate people, it is abuse. I know because I suffered it as well.
The fact this is a standard in medical training is why it has by large gone down hill in the last 20 years. Punishing students who are interested, engaged, and active in finding their learning opportunities are “annoying” while likely inferior, absent minded, day dreaming uninterested students get rewarded for being disengaged is a scary notion to push in training the next generation of future surgeons. Speak up. Ask dumb questions. Ask good questions. You are lying hundreds of thousands of dollars to be taught. If that “annoys” the surgeons in academic medicine perhaps they would be better off in private practice rather than taking a job where the job description includes educating medical students. Knowledge comes from question. Good judgement comes from bad judgement. Make mistakes, be “annoying” if you’re actually interested. As for the d-bag surgeons. Be better.
i had mixed feelings during the "reflections" section, remembered my own surgery rotation and I kind of started to laugh while crying. If i just stfu, i could become a surgeon I thought. Anyways what I do now is ike 10 times better work/life balance and 10 times the money so, fuck it, I am not gonna save humans'n sht i guess whatever
I was so terrified of saying something dumb after my first pimping in 3rd year that being silent was easy for me 😂 too bad it also translated into my personal life and now I am afraid to talk to anyone & feel like my presence is always a bother 🥲
I am so sorry that that happened to you. I think a similar experience has also caused me to become self-conscious about whether or not I'm being annoying in my personal life as well.
