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Isn't Gunter only available in Conquest and Revelations? (If your referring to PRE-Chapter 6, those don't count as a path yet! But in that case he is a Jagen in the WORST way because you want them EXP for Corrin, Honestly Pre-Chapter 6 chapters gains my hatred because I'm use to using them to set up my early team....and I'm not allowed to do that other then making Corrin even more special because "that's for AFTER I pick my team" and do to the game deciding to give me ALOT of Hoshido exclusives for the final bit, if I don't pick Birthright or Revelations, Leveling them was POINTLESS! So they are "also Jagens" in the "Stealing viable EXP and SWORD EXP for Corrin" God I hate Corrin so much! Good Unit, Terrible character in their OWN FUCKING GAME!)
@@weenkerz yato is far from a one-size-fits-all personal weapon. 1-2 range, magic damage, effective damage, crit rate, and brave effect are advantages that can be found on other swords, so neglecting your sword rank has a meaningful impact on corrin's versatility unless you flat-out swap to another weapon type entirely
Further cementing your point, Fates is not the first time Fire Emblem has had a weapon be a Jagen. The lightning sword from Fire Emblem Gaiden and later Shadows of Valentia is likewise the game's Jagen. It's extremely powerful in the earlygame, and falls off later in the game as its fixed might that doesn't increase with character growth or ignore resistance becomes less and less useful, often leading it to be dropped in favor of weapons that do scale with unit growth. It also provides unit variety, and perhaps fits better in the Oifey category, as it fits the specific niche of giving sword units a ranged option and targets Res, which especially in Gaiden with its generally lower stats, made it liable to sometimes see use all the way to endgame, if in a significantly reduced capacity. One could also argue it "wastes EXP" in that since it does not scale with the unit's strength, gains acquired by the unit using it are likewise less valuable.
I feel that an argument could be made for "Jagen-items" having better feel than Jagen as a unit. While their purpose is the same, the player does not feel the same incentive of trying to minimise Exp gain by their wielder, which imo leads to a more fun experience using them.
@@jierdareisa4313 I think that to a degree you run into an issue with hoarding in that case. It works in Fates and Gaiden/SoV because uses are infinite. By contrast, most Jagens come with silver lances, and their ability to use that silver lance is among their most defining features, especially in games with deflated stats like the Archanea games. FE1/11 Jagen himself is only a few points better than Abel, and while these points are relevant on the highest difficulty, a lot of the difference between their damage outputs is the early access to silver lance (and early Ridersbane). However, silver lance is 20 uses and people thus are wary of using it, despite it being perhaps at its most useful in FE11’s brutal first three chapters.
@@harb1ng3r82 indeed... and I think it is no coincidence that the games which chose to replace their Jagens with weapons are those where weapons have infinite durability. The entire design philosphy is different: units and items are less akin to consumables, which discourages hoarding (of units and of items).
I mean, an early level 36 Azura is busted for the whole game, no ? Her HP/Def/Res are godawful, but her Skl/Spd/Lck are pretty high, and her Atk/Mag growth rates are identical to Camilla's, at least before classes enter the picture. A refresher is always a good unit too, and Eternal Seals allow her to keep growing At worst, level 36 Azura is an Oifey
I remember talking about the concept of Jagen with a friend, and we came to the conclusion that Jagen just means something that is good and suddenly less good, so Leif's Light Brand in FE5 is a Jagen and Takumi in FEH before skill inheritance is also a Jagen
I feel like Brave Lyn is the real Jagen of Heroes, while Reinhardt is the Oifey They were both completely ruling over FEH early game (aka busted year 1 units) However Reinhardt is still pretty good nowadays while Brave Lyn... Kinda sucks, to say the least
the irony is that FE1 Jagen never really falls off because of how late promo items show up and that he can get by just through weapon ranks and his class.
That's just kinda how FE1 works I mean Est is good out of the box because weapon ranks Defeating the entire point of her archetype And just as importantly Defeating how her other 5 appearances have her as one of the weakest members of her archetype
Jagen's bases are good enough to carry him into the late game, he godawful growths don't really come into play when he doesn't really need to grow in the first place. Plus with the abundance of gold FE1 gives you as well as the 2 secret shops in the late game, you can cap everyone's stats anyway. FE1 is probably the game where stat boosters are easiest to come by because of that.
I really love what Fates did with the "Jagen" idea. For being one of the series' most stale idea/theme, it was kind of radically revolutionized in this game. Not only are you completely right that Dragonstone is a Jagen, but the other "Jagens" Felicia/Jakob, instead of having Jagen stats, get skills extremely quicker than other units, and the guy who fits the Jagen character (not unit) archetype instead joins halfway through the game as a pairup support unit. With his stats he WOULD be a great Jagen in the earlygame, but instead he joins with Jagen stats at a point when a typical Jagen is falling off, which is kinda funny.
I really like this. It's a clean, detailed description of an archetype that will be easy to defer to for analytical purposes. I would love if you did more of these!
If you look at some of the weaker Jagens I'm pretty sure they only have a 3 to 5 point difference in stats, and are often carried by weapon ranks or silver weapons. Considering the dragonstone gives +4 defense and has considerably more base power than other early options, i thinks it's a fair comparison. I see why they prevented follow-up attacks so that it doesn't invalidate other weapons/yato, but that ends up crippling it even early on, especially since its not even available for slower classes.
Huh, this is actually a pretty interesting analysis. The lack of double striking also furthers its ability to set up kills, as it makes it a lot harder to one-round an enemy with it.
My dragonstone became an Oifey because my first run being conquest hard and being speed screwed meant that I wasn't doubling anything and the dragonstone just dealt more overall damage plus higher def and res
Usually Jagens are already promoted so... Dragonstone+ is that unit you get too late to actually use but has somewhat good stats if you actually commit to use them (?)
Tbh I love the dragonstone, and used it throughout whole game every Fates playthrough. Ik it's optimal to reclass, but the role of a magic tank is so rare and fun to have in FE I can't pass it up.
I made an entire Revelations run where my Corrin only used her dragon stone, she had all the good skills like Quixotic, Hoshidan Unity, Astra and Vantage, among others. She was a fucking nuke of a character, and no one survived, like at all. (and i mean, of course they didn't, i played on normal for that run)
I’ve honestly been wondering who fits the role of jagen in fates because so many are somewhat jagens: The servants are prepromotes Gunter is a great knight but he like goes away for a bit or forever Corrin is strong and bulky But yeah the dragon stone makes sense
One time I got in a huge argument with my friend over whether to use Frederick in Awakening (on normal difficulty) or whether to bench him eternally. Every time either of us brings that up, the argument continues. Good times.
FE 4 Silver Sword also starts strong that means that it also is a Jaigan but it also becomes stronger through the game so in reality it's an Oifey but Silver Sword comes before Oifey so actually Oifey isn't an Oifey, but a Silver Sword.
The Silver Sword is not a Jeigan, its part of the the toolset of one (Sigurd) all oldschool Jeigans get a silver weapon at the beginning of the game. And then Sigurd also falls of and contributes nothing after chapter 5.
As much as I enjoy the memes, as a casual of the series I love the deeper analysis like these. Thanks for taking the time to work on daily uploads, you rock!
Remember folks, this result was made possible thanks to the edge running Fire emblem Fates KMU on which either one has to have the guts of using a very bad unit to survive or rely on Dragon Corrin and the now new, yet experimental, Jitaro army to beat the game. This result was made possible thanks to the implementation of scientific methods of trial and error and thus gave a conclusion of simply marking the dragon mechanism another unit in parallel of Corrin, which in turn it came to be just a Jagen in disguise.
Well if you have a magic Corrin build and pick up the Dragonstone+, you can expect to OHKO most enemies in the late game, though you do need to be wary of silver penalties stacking.
I agree with your points but there is one more thing that makes a Jagen: they always join as a promoted class. The Dragonstone has a stronger version known as the Dragonstone+, meaning it joins you as a base class and not a promoted one.
Dwyane "The Rock" Johnson was actually born already old, so yo keep up from finding out his secret immortality, they had to make an entire comedy series to falsify his childhood and lure us off the trail.
It is silly, you're not wrong. I can see units like fe7 Marcus, Seth, Titania, etc. as being distinguished from the Jagen archetype, because they have the growths that sustain their lead over their compatriots, but overall it seems to me that Jagen often boils down to "strong early prepromote"
I'd argue FE7 Marcus does fall off pretty bad too I mean he doesn't become unusable But he becomes filler And in a game with like 10 deployment slots You don't need filler Especially when Lyn Mode Boss Abuse Serra is just as good as a mid game tank
I would argue that Gunter plays the role of a traditional Jagen, but only for the first two maps... the one where you fight Kaze and Rinkah, and the one where you are with Hans in the Bottomless Canyon. At that point, he's a level 3 pre-promote while Jacob and Corrin may be a lower level. But you quickly outpace him, and by the time he's gone, you're likely to be past the point where you would have needed his help. He does in fact make those first two maps a lot less scary than they might be if you just had level 1 Corrin and Jakob. The only thing that might arguably disqualify Gunter is that he is there at the beginning but leaves early in the game rather than not being there at first but joining early. Other than that, he does fit the archetype.
"how many of your characters are rocks batman?" a quote I expect to hear from the next joker movie. "what? you don't think that the rock will make a contribution just because its a rock?"
i'll do you one better: kana is a gotoh. more specifically, late game (chapter 23 and onward) kana with proper skill inheritance and an offspring seal is a gotoh. late game fates (mostly just conquest and revelation) enemies stats are overleveled, usually leading to your army being slightly underleveled for most of the last part of the game (in my experience). offspring seals matches the child unit to the enemies' levels, leading to them typically being either the same level as or higher than the rest of your army. here's where kana comes in. kana's personal gives them an emphasis on using their dragonstone, which already gives a defensive boost to their stats. granted you don't put dragonstone kana in the middle of a bunch of ninjas, they can usually tank a good amount of damage and heal it back the next turn with his personal. in my experience, their str stat isnt high enough to one round enemies so he usually leaves them wounded enough for weaker units to finish them off for exp. in short, giving kana the proper skills, recruiting them at the right time, and making them use their dragonstone turns him into a gotoh.
The problem with your theory is that there isn't a house on one of the early maps where some peasant asshole says "Hey you know that Dragonstone? It's strong as an ox but don't use it because bla bla bla" I generally find the defensive stats on the dragonstone to be pretty useful at times, and Corrin has convoy use right? So you should always keep it in mind even if its not in your inventory
I agree with you! I used the Stone more to keep Corrin from "Killing" enemies so I can finish them off with my other units (Seeing how they had their time to shine and suck up EXP points like Kirby BEFORE Chapter 6, time to give some kills to someone else!) It's defensive! But honestly I'm starting to notice alot of FE players hating on units that don't "kill any foe they come across in one hit like their Post Time Skip Dimitri! because their damage stat is OP as FUCK! Or their Ryoma in doing the same but with decent chance of dodging which was weird cause when I tried to "Ryoma Emblem" to see what the hype on him was about, he died often! which is WHY I don't rely on EVASION odds Often on defense in FE! Seriously I take into account what will happen come my enemies phase! Destroying the problem is good, but if you can't your just blitzing and Football taught me that Blitzing WILL fuck you over if the offense is subverted seeing how your "putting your eggs in one basket and it WILL fall over" (Sorry for the rant, I'm the guy who WON'T abuse Warp to 1 round a battle in FE, cause I play to have fun strategizing and overcoming challenge rather then looking for the simplest way to break a game! Seriously I save that for Real Life Problems LOL)
@@Kryptnyt I get that, but "chance factor" means not my cup of tea (when it happens, it happens and I'm happy, but apprantly my real life luck suck so bad they rarely activate for me! Seriously everytime I give Vengeance to a character, it only activates when their at FULL HP! Or lost like two HP or something! Seriously found it worked best on Effie or Benny my Walls because it always activated even when the extra damage meant shit for Effie LOL Happy Three Houses made them "Activatable" ones! Not going to say they SUCK in Fates, but I just not a fan of Skill activations in the series because my real life luck is shit when it comes to gambling LOL)
@@paulman34340 well you should never play as though you need these abilities to trigger, you should hedge and play safely and be happy when they do trigger and save you actions like healing during your turn. Astra and Sol are really good skills for that. I like Combat Arts as well but they can both be good
@@Kryptnyt I do play like that with skill chance abilties when playing Fates (I do lean towards passives though) as I said, if it activates good, if not oh well! (Ever played Lunatic Conquest or birthright with NO SKILL sans the personals! Did it once for both, NEVER want to do it again LOL! Frustrating, but it was fun, just not the fun I'll repeat again)
There are ocassional times Dragonstone Corrin are still seen in late game, but usually they start using swords (or tomes) or something like that. Or you're being deceived
Whenever someone brings up the Jagen archetype, they'll typically mention the "Oifey" variant as a distinction. I've got to say that Oifey in fe4 acts far more like a traditional Jagen than the other characters in the "Oifey" variant, so my best guess as to why it's even named that is some people who didn't know how fe4 operates saw high growths from minor Holy blood and simply assumed that Oifey functioned similar to the newer characters. Jagens and "Oifeys" are kinda an artificial distinction anyway, because many Jagens are actually capable of performing really well throughout the entire game, it's just that players which play slower will be able to build characters to have much higher stats than the Jagen, whereas the "Oifeys" (except Oifey) typically are still among the best units even when you're taking the time to raise a whole team.
The first time I ever heard of Oifey was when people were discussing Seth and FE9 Titania, so I think the growth of the "Oifey" label has always been 100% divorced from fe4.
@@DollyBowman I agree, the only thing Oifey has in common with Seth and Titania (as I got into FE because of Roy and Marth back in Smash right when Blazing Sword came to America and I only heard of Oifey around when I played POR and looked deeper into the series before Blazing Sword!) is the Age Range!
If you are female Corrin, immediate Paladin Jakob is an expensive Demi-Oifey that really helps early game. That's as close as I've seen to a pure one. However, the dragonstone is definitely the intended one. Byleth funny enough is the psuedo Pre-promote of 3H, the lord being your lord in question.
by this logic you could argue that the fe4 silver sword is a jagen but it actually gets BETTER late game since you have more kills on it so its kind of like an oifey that actually gets better over the course of the game rather than starting good and ending ok
This rock seems like it may be a better Jagen than Jagen was. This is only to be expected of something so much older than the original, whose portrayal was ultimately quite speciesist. This is because his only contribution to the cast was being old, something that several other characters in his game did even better.
I’d argue Byleth is the Oifey of 3H despite starting at level 1. Has the best bases of the cast, carries early maddening, has a personal skill that’s designed to set up and feed kills, middling growth rates and falls behind skill wise.
