Could T.rex Survive The Ice Age? Megatheropods in Cenozoic North America 

REFERENCES Testing Clovis spears on elephants www.jstor.org/stable/280681 How dangerous grizzlies were to pre-gun cultures hughglass.org/grizzly-in-1800s/ Clovis mammoth kill site count www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040618207003771?via%3Dihub Size of the American Lion www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1671/039.029.0314 20,000 year old human footprints news.berkeley.edu/2023/10/05/tests-confirm-humans-tramped-around-north-america-more-than-20-000-years-ago Ideal migration pathways around.uoregon.edu/content/new-data-suggests-timeline-arrival-first-americans Cooper’s Ferry archaeological site may be older than Clovis www.science.org/content/article/first-people-americas-came-sea-ancient-tools-unearthed-idaho-river-suggest North American agriculture esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1890/ES10-00098.1 Larramendi 2015 www.app.pan.pl/archive/published/app61/app001362014.pdf Hwange National Park lion pride specializes in killing elephants www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-class-distribution-of-elephants-observed-being-killed-by-lions-from-1993-to-1996_fig1_232693088 Elephant matriarchs will charge lions even if the lions aren’t attacking ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Suk8o0AjHMQ.html Elephants become depressed if relatives die books.google.com/books?id=7JIAt-yfIJgC&pg=PA72#v=onepage&q&f=false Information about elephants in musth www.elephantvoices.org/elephant-ethogram/ethogram-table/behavior?id=159 Elephant tusk durability ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JlQMrvbtA8o.html Elephant skull structure is light and honeycombed knysnaelephantpark.co.za/skeleton-skull/ Bulls fighting may break their tusks www.pbs.org/edens/etosha/elephant.htm#:~:text=When%20competing%20for%20mates%2C%20male,tusks%20than%20their%20calmer%20counterparts Bulls fighting ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2XA3dgJiBT0.html Bulls fighting more ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KpN-P1OVzl4.html Lions hunting elephants ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2lU8HcxIAw8.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-x4nG4JsAyKY.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-OA0HQwQpCBs.html blog.londolozi.com/2020/03/30/how-do-elephants-respond-to-leopards-and-lions/ Tyrannosaurus bite force peerj.com/articles/13731/ Tyrannosaurus biting Triceratops facial horns www.myfossil.org/featured-fossil-triceratops-vs-tyrannosaurus Elephant birth rate spana.org/blog/elephant-pregnancy-facts/#:~:text=Elephants%20give%20birth%20around%20every,five%20babies%20during%20their%20lives Elephant agility demonstration ru-vid.comVdL8FtN_Lao Teratophoneus gregariousness peerj.com/articles/11013/ Canadian tyrannosaur trackways www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jul/23/tyrannosaurs-hunted-packs-tracks-canada Giant ground sloth body size link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10021-005-0076-8 Egg stealers during the time of the dinosaurs www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/scrambled-eggs-and-the-demise-of-the-dinosaurs-85969406/ Mammals weren’t outcompeting dinosaurs www.nature.com/articles/ncomms1815 Success of crocodilians despite mammalian interference www.researchgate.net/publication/259450979_The_Role_of_Predation_in_Shaping_Crocodilian_Natural_History Nest guarding is likely a basal archosaurian trait defenders.org/wildlife/american-crocodile-and-alligator#:~:text=Roughly%201.25%20million%20alligators%20live,females%20will%20defend%20prime%20territory Collaborative hunting by crocodilians www.researchgate.net/publication/272369202_Apparent_coordination_and_collaboration_in_cooperatively_hunting_crocodilians Paleocene temperature www.scotese.com/paleocen.htm Paleocene environment www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/change/deeptime/cenozo.html#:~:text=Ferns%2C%20horsetails%2C%20and%20shrubby%20flowering,America%2C%20Africa%2C%20and%20Australia. Eocene environment cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/cjes-2016-0043#:~:text=The%20Eocene%20Epoch%20is%20well,as%20well%20as%20to%20climatologists Eocene environment ucmp.berkeley.edu/tertiary/eocene.php Oligocene environment www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2003914117#:~:text=Oligocene%20GMSTs%20were%20%E2%88%BC22,42%2C%2069 Oligocene environment ucmp.berkeley.edu/tertiary/oligocene.php Oligocene ice sheets www.nature.com/articles/s41561-022-01025-x Miocene temperature bolin.su.se/data/miocene-temperature-portal Miocene environment chooser.crossref.org/?doi=10.2307%2F3515337 Miocene migration of muroids to North America academic.oup.com/sysbio/article/62/6/837/1710000?login=false Pliocene temperature www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67154-8#:~:text=The%20Pliocene%20Epoch%20(2.588%20to,and%20Antarctic%20ice%20sheets2. Pleistocene extinctions and environment www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16502-3 Hell Creek temperature www.researchgate.net/publication/279980306_A_florule_from_the_base_of_the_Hell_Creek_Formation_in_the_type_area_of_eastern_Montana_Implications_for_vegetation_and_climate

I googled it, and apparently a group of tyrannosaurs is called a “terror”, which I think is solid.

I personally prefer the idea of calling a group of Tyrannosaurus a "Royalty" Cause they're the "Tyrant Lizard Kings"

Tyrannosaurus packs shall be called a Dynasty; Referring to it's definition, A gathering of kings.

I imagine even after megatheropods go bye bye at the beginning of the holocene their presense would have sent echos throughout human culture forever, sparking stories of the giant feathered dragons which once terrorized the land

Imagine some conquistador, a frenchman, or some cowboy arriving in the great plains to find packs of two ton feathered dragons chowing down on buffalo.

Great video. Thanks for the shoutout!

Great video:) In my opinion "dominion" or "dynasty" for T. rex group seems a better names. "Nightmare" could be great name for a group of Utahraptors, tho.

Ancalagon caught be off guard to the point that I spat my coffee out - what a legend.

Fascinating. This makes me wonder: what if the K-T extinction had been a little less severe, and some of the smaller dinosaurs managed to survive? How might they evolve during the Cenozoic and how might that affect the evolution of mammals and other surviving animals?

I absolutely love the idea of Tyrannosaurs evolving into fluffy dragons to rule the ice age. It really harkens back to their earliest ancestor, Yutyrannus, being arctic tyrants in of themselves. It's honestly fascinating how it's become more common knowledge that not only did dinosaurs survive in snow, but on many occasions thrived in it. Some of the earliest dinosaurs, even the earliest archosaurs, were already specialized for cold before they started taking over the world and it came full circle since with Nanuqsaurus and in this alternate timeline colossal woolly-rexes of death!

The amount of research/ theorising this man has done just to make my childish brain giggle about T-Rex vs Mammoth… Anyways love the video, keep going man.

This is most likely your best video yet. And thats not an easy bar to climb over. The amount of research and detail here is nuts. You gave both sides very fair arguments, whether it would be elephants vs theropods or early humans vs theropods. I’d say I wanna live in a world like this diverged Pleistocene but if I was actually a human born back then and saw these dragons, I’d be scared shitless. And if they do somehow survive into the Holocene, I imagine they’ll evolve to be smaller, but still probably larger than bison and bears. Imagine Middle Ages North America with herds of bison and gangs of middle-range evolved Tyrannosaurus. Speculative ecology is such a fascination and fun subject to read and or watch. Thank you for providing this kind of content to all of us!!

Oh man I love this, well worth the 26 a month XD

Imagining a gang of giganotosaurus ambushing a paleoloxodon brings out my inner kid

The thing with elephants is that they are quite sensitive to external Predators they arent used to dealing with. And usually go extinct relatively quickly when threatened. Their slow reproduction means they usually lose any evolutionary arms race and often do not have the numbers ro replenish casualties fast enough

Knowing that woolly mammoths on average weighed less than the average African elephant, and a maximum of almost 8 tons, they would be a great and delicious replacement for the Triceratops and other T Rex prey.

Fantastic video. Probably your best yet and that was already a high bar.

There _needs_ to be a game on this! This was so good to watch and each part was just so well-filled with its own flavor, of which I could never have had enough of. I especially loved that adapted Tyrannosaurus at the Pleistocene part. Please do keep making videos as good as this one was! 'Cause I'll be all down for it!

The way you said that we would be scavengers to the Megatheropods, and they will force us to be farmers are extremely inventive. I really love this speculation, especially the part with the possibility of most of the Ice Age's Megafauna survival into the modern world. Sure we were not exactly the main reason of their extinction, but we were a nail in their coffin. With the great dragons taking the wheel, and us mortals being able to adapt and live with these titanic titans, we can have at least a better understanding with nature. ❤ Keep up the great work man. ❤

Oh my Gosh this was so epic! Looks like the theropods have triumphed over the cenozoic once again! It's pretty incredible how adaptable the theropods are despite all the challenges. Definently an h^2/10 video

This video was fantastic, I honestly loved the parts with Tyrannosaurus fighting the prehistoric elephantoidea, Mammutidae and just elephants in general. Honestly I would love an updated tyrannosaur PSA from you as you seem to be the most reliable channel on tyrannosaurus, Actually considering speculative weights for tyrannosaurus instead of only giving that to other large theropods, But more or less on the bite, How quick it could crush, Most likely not like a trash compacter but an actual jaw. And this video was a great example of theropods in the Cenozoic in general.

Early humans domesticating theropods= dinoriders

It’s been a long time since I enjoyed a video this much. The level of detail and measured explanations put into each part was spot on, not too complex but also not boringly simple. 10/10 from me

Honestly glad this felt very evened out without too much bias between either the Theropods and the Mammals. This honestly feels like the mammals really can in fact stay in the game and adapt pretty well towards the new pressure in spite of the Theropods obviously dominating the Apex predator niches from the get go which than forced some of them to evolve to cope with the conditions that aren't as easy to thrive in compared to their native Mesozoic timeline.

This was beautiful, and props for the shout-out to Madly Mesozoic. :)

What a spectacular video!

Bravo, a truly captivating watch.

i love to see a Fully Grown Tyrannosaurus Rex Hunt a Woolly Mammoth

I've always had a soft spot for Allosaurus. I think pound for pound one of the fiercest predators ever. a

Incredible video, major props

Also the T rex vs mastodon took me back to prehistoric park when Matilda tried to take on martha. Prehistoric park actually could make a great video idea in terms of how it could work with present day ecology and conservation today.

I enjoyed the video but I feel like the theropods from allosaurus’ size to smaller got ignored at the end. I would’ve liked if each one got at least a brief explanation of how they would do.

Suggestion, if the three main theropods (T.Rex G.Carolinii. S.Aegyptiacus) lived in the cenozoic of africa [Just an idea]

Apparently the collective term for tyrannosaurs is a terror. A terror of tyrannosaurs. I’d say a nightmare of T-Rex is still up for grabs

This was well done sir. The stories and speculative documentaries that could be made from this thought experiment are most exciting to think about.

This was one of the most entertaining and informative vids yet. This totally needs to be a series if possible 😊

Acrocanthosaurus has been one of my favorite dinosaurs ever since i was little kid, so happy see it getting some love

Another great thought provoking video. I’d say if trex did live in that time period it would be time to employ heavy plumage. Mike

For those claiming oxygen levels are a problem: Dinosaurs had the same breathing system as birds and crocodiles, which breathe more efficiently than mammals. Additionally, the extant blue whale breathes air and is the largest animal ever.

Great video

Great video, but one possible thing the video left out… if humans were able to domesticate certain less-aggressive wolves into dogs, could it be possible that they would’ve tried to domesticate certain theropods?

A tyranny of Tyrannosaurs

Favorite video by far

I can't believe you actually got Thomas Holtz to commentate on this! Amazing video!

God I love these videos from you! Bye the way, is there any information on how eggs would be affected by the ice age?

Damn, they fared much better than I thought they would. They strait up dominated most of the time. I really enjoyed this, and it used solid evidence. Consider me subscribed

2:21 Ah shit, he's real, everyone head for the hills

19:40 Or Goji Center’s Tyrannosaurus rex vs. Palaeoloxodon namadicus video, one of my personal favorite videos on that channel.

The official name for a group of T.rex is a Terror, a Terror of Tyrannosaurs.

I love imagining a giant fluffy chick-like floofball that suddenly opens its mouth and reveals that it's the cutest death sentence EVER! This image just popped into my head when you mentioned therapids getting fluffier...

The scariest thing about deinonychus isn't that young ones can fly NOT GONNA MENTION SMALL DEINONS CAN CLIMB TREES but the worst thing is that they would likely see us as a prey option oh and they would literally eat you alive oh an I also wanna say on the whole tyrannosaurid or smth like that group thing possibly footprints of multiple tyrannosaurids ot smth it may have been a drought and they had no other choice but to team up

This is amazing please do South American theropods next it is a hotbed of huge Carcharodontosaurs

This is a such a brilliant and well researched video, I was absolutely hooked. Somebody needs to write a novel based on that alternative theropod-infested and their encounters with early humans

Amazing

I mean, theropod dinosaurs would be dominant in the Ice Age, but they would be extinct, because the climate was much much colder, and the only theropods. I could probably see that would adapt to the ice age would be Dromaeosaurus and troodontids

26:34 i really hope you do this topic some day in the future as a sort of sequel to this video. It sounds interesting and also really cool at the same time.

I think the elephant situation is handled very well in the spec evo/biology tales of kaimere handles the elephant situation well.

Judging by your analysis in the Pleistocene, I want to live in that reality!

Pretty crazy to imagine how these animals were this adaptable as you get the impression that even mid size aggro predators like ceratosaurus were simply too large and had reproductive cycles too slow in the cold. But it’s pretty damn impressive especially considering the mass extinction element humans present of which other animals simply wouldn’t be able to exist with. Yeah I know they didn’t make it past the Holocene but still very impressive compared to the cenzoic counterparts. Another excellent and epic series edition vividen👏🏾👏🏾 Btw that lion story with the elephants is crazy. Like those African bull kalahari super lions.

I loved the ending. Reminds me of all the old fantasy scenarios in fiction where early humans interacted with dinosaurs.

I love this guy

So good

What an excellent video! This cements your position as my favorite prehistoric RU-vidr! Anyway, a thought about packing hunting for the megatheropods. Is it still considered pack hunting if its a mated pair of acros or rexes? Pack hunting in my head is like a wolf pack or lion pride, not two big megatheropods and maybe some of their young.

Do Megatheropods in Cenozoic South America next please

a nightmare of tyranosaurs, i love it

Amazing, you did amazing witn this video. Dinosaurs in the Cenezoic is a hot topic of debate that people should look at more. You did an amazing job giving all the information and evidence in a very good manner. I personally think the Theropod Dinosaurs can survive in the Cenezoic but there will be challenges like: Proboscideans, humans, and smaller creatures. Amazing job I can't wait to we what other Paleontology videos you will make.

Rule number 1 like before its even out.

A group of megatheropods is officially a ‘nightmare’ now

Next suggestion: what theropods would survive into the Holocene, could be from any continent or this one as a jumping off point.

I think a quake of tyrannosaurs sounds the best. I can imagine the sound of a megatheropod group influencing the vernacular used

Love your content, please do could leviathan melvillei survive the jurassic Ara next. 🙏

Could I do the Asia chapter? I want to see the theropods against the great P.Namandicus

That “angalagon the black” was totally unexpected and made me laugh so hard 😂

Megafauna would not have evolved if theropods were around. Raptors would have kept mammal size in check.

imagine that you are part of a hunt group and just manage to take down a wolly mammoth, and when you and your friends are preparing the animal, sudenlly 5 scally demons(saurophaganax) almost the size of the mammoth you just take down appears from the woods and start springting towards you, thats horrifing.

nice

Group of Rex: A Nobility Group of Utah: A Coalition Group of Torvo: A Dominion Group of Allo: A Pride Personally, I'd rather see what would happen if dinosaurs were around today. Also, imagine if mankind tamed Utahraptor instead of wolves in America

The more I think about the Kaimerans from Keenan Taylor's Tales of Kaimere (a spec evo project) and how they coexist with the dinosaurs of that planet is very similar to this video and concept of early humans meeting dinosaurs.

All this speculative ecology gave me an idea. How would dinosaurs compare/compete with modern day dinosaurs aka Birds? Specifically Dromeosaurids vs Terror Birds and modern raptors like Hawks and Eagles? Edit: Also Ratites like Ostriches, Emus and Cassowaries.

I’m not really that interested in the whole, “what if this and that organism interacted.” But these are very entertaining.

when i think about the possibilities of theropod evolution after the period known as the extinction aftermath, it makes some sense, at least to me, that they would evolve into somethink like terror birds, possibly much larger, with serrated beaks. they may still have tails, but much shorter ones.

Could the north American ice age megafana survives in a modern north America?

According to Google, a group of Tyrannosaurus Rex’s is called a “Terror.”

Can you imagine if Tyrannosaurids knew how to kick or hip bash their prey over? Imagine a 10 ton Rex running out from cover at 20MPH and just dumping a Ceratops over for an instant victory

Sorry, what's the patch that installs these option? I would like a saurian house pet.

Knowing us humans we would probably call the T. rex or Ceratosaurus something stupid like The Small Arm Lizard or The Rainbow Crested Lizard if they existed in the Ice Age.

MY BOI CERATOSAURUS MADE IT WOOOO I'm excited for other renditions of this type of video! You thinking of doing an Asian version of this? Tarbosaurus and Zhucheng plus others doing an avengers level collaboration against Palaeoloxodon. Ps: thats 2-0 for our therapod friends. I feel terrible for our alt timeline ancestors

Imagining the development of human civilization and culture with these big boys running around sounds like a fascinating alt history to explore. Gunpowder is a little over 1,000 years old- Homo sapiens is 200,000. Would we have figured it out early to defend ourselves from the big boys? Or would such dangerous predators stifle progress altogether?

I think I heard that the paper on the Canadian Tyrannosaur trackway referred to a pack of Tyrannosaurs as a "Terror"? Not sure if that was accurately reported though? I think I could see the Tyrannosaurids going after Glyptodonts, since the larger species (Tyrannosaurus) would be able to out pace them, out maneuver their their tails, and crunch through their armor. Giant ground sloths might be a bit tricky or an interesting scenario for Tyrannosaurs, because Tyrannosaurs did evolve alongside both Therizinosaurs and Deinocheirids; while we currently don't have any evidence of either from higher latitude formations like Hell Creek, there has been at least 1 known species of Deinocheirid from Mexico, and it could be easily plausible that Therizinosaurs might be found there too that we have yet to find. So perhaps Tyrannosaurs would have "interacted" (hunted, fought or avoided) with giant ground sloths in a similar manner as they would have with Deinocheirids or Therizinosaurs? Also, I could see Tyrannosaurs taking advantage of the Bering Land Bridge to invade Asia once again, and start taking advantage of the mega faunal food sources of Asia and probably Africa from there too?

I want to mention that giant size is not always going to be detrimental in the way that their won't be enough food or speed to catch prey if they are bigger than native fauna. For one, large animals actually seem to be better sustainable for proportionally less food than smaller animals are, and if theropod metabolism studies are anything to go by, for an 8 ton theropod they'd be comparable to a 1 ton mammal. A human sized meal would actually be pretty fulfilling to a T.rex. And despite being large speed does not always become worse with increasinv size either.

I love the ending of this video, megatheropods and humans mutually benefiting each other in order to survive, although I feel like it would’ve started differently Early humans in North America seemed to mostly hunt medium to large game such as mammoths. Since the larger and largest of the theropods used these as their main food source I would imagine instead of directly competing with 10+ ton hairy lizards that make the very earth quake in their presence, early humans might’ve decided to hunt the things they didn’t predate on. Furthermore, if the megatheropods could outrun humans for the most part, it would make sense that they would distance themselves from the medium sized carnivores like allosaurus and smaller tyrannosaurs. As for the larger tyrannosaurs like T Rex, I think that instead of competing with them or fearing them, I think that early humans might see the mightiest of the tyrants as gods. Enormous thunderous beasts that lurk in the forests, preying on all that moves and wiping out entire villages by themselves. Their folklore would tell tales of the forest gods, immense hairy dragons that rattle the very heavens with every step, and their booming calls rumbling through the hills, flattening entire mountains in their wake

I’m imagining a TV show based on something like this now

maybe next not just north america but all of the cenozoic, but this time do both theropods and sauropods to live with these mammals.

Well I got to say a pack/group of T-Rex being called a nightmare is great!

this needs to be a syfy book

Yutyrannus? Just a thought.

What happened to Paleoxodon and paracetherium?

I’d like to imagine that if this full set of pre KT predators listed were reintroduced to somewhere around the Texas region early into the Pleistocene, and given 1.5 to 2 million years to adapt and disperse. Several species could end up entirely in South America, while others fully inhabit the northern regions of North America (as far as glaciers allow them to reach at least). And other species go all directions and split into new branches of species. I’d imagine that you could see a very small number of the larger species per region of the Americas, those most predisposed to feathery coverings at younger ages adapting to have full coats as adults and taking over the north, the most dominant for each niche keeping control of southern NA and Central America, many new species branching out as various species expand further south through the equatorial climates and even have to separately evolve plumages once reaching Patagonia. So by the arrival of humans, the amount of Saurian biodiversity would be unimaginable, let alone imagining what these many new selective pressures would force native species into adapting for, perhaps a population of mammoths grow bigger, more intelligent, and live in notably larger groups, becoming uncanny in closeness to humans in regards to trends towards early societal evolution. Perhaps some of the Saurian species also become notably more intelligent over this large timeframe, maybe forming proper social packs, if they already had such things, perhaps they get more sophisticated with smarter members and the beginnings of language, tool use and culture like seen in tribal bird species such as numerous corvidae species. Regardless, by the time humans reach the continent, I seriously doubt they could spread nearly as fast, perhaps not even making it past the modern day western half of usa. sticking to Canada and extending to Greenland so far north that any additional predators barely differ from the irl polar bear problem they had. Even if humanity does expand all the way through the Americas, I assume the level of advancement would be astronomically reduces as a culture is formed from scavenging and hiding away for most of the day, revering the giants. I would be curious weather this makes European colonisation easier or futile, perhaps it is sped up in terms of native retaliation, but slowed down in terms of wildlife problems enough that it results in merely a slightly slowed down expansion. At the same time I don’t think the settlers would be migrating beyond intended lands as quickly, resulting in far more coastal development east of the Appalachian mountains, through Central America, west of the Andes, and along the southeast coast of Brazil down to Patagonia. Colonies of the Americas may be far less Iberian dominated as only more valuable coastlines better suited to establishing a decent population without major issues are invested in, at least until the European technology improves enough that the wildlife becomes a non issue, allowing major inland expansions to occur in the 16th to 18th centuries, in turn seeing a very different set of nations prevalent in the expansions, perhaps even giving the Prussians and later Germans time to get a colony or two. Regardless of if and how this affects the colonial age in terms of land acquisitions and later developments, it would certainly change the worlds understanding of nature, especially is any megafauna of the mammoth/elephant variety still remains which possesses even greater intelligence than any elephants of our reality thanks to the Saurian selective pressures. Even more so any dinosaur species that could have became notably intelligent, assuming their social developments follow the same path as corvids. This definitely is one of the more interesting concepts for speculative evolution both of species and societies.

Amazing video! I feel like humans would have to develop traps to take on the dinos. Also i never thought of rats being the issue that they could be for nests. Makes me think about how many creatures went extinct to disease/infestation of vermin. Mammals are not clean animals but we are very good at making things trip, just ask my cat lol.