Count Fleet seems to be left out of the greatest of all conversation. In my opinion he deserves a front row seat. THE END ILLUSTRATES HIS COMPETITIVE FIRE!
count fleet was very unnoticed.beautiful to look at and fast!greay horse that i rank as number 3.tied with secretariat.same race record,similiar wins especially at belmont.great champion
2009: in the 50's and 60's there were plenty of terrific horses: Tim Tam,Northern Dancer, Majestic Pleasure, Carry Back, Nashua, Damascus, Native Dancer...who for one reason or another did not win the TC...they are still great...that 'w what makes horseracing!!!...
The Fleet reminds me of Citation. As Longdon says, he could do everything. He had a perfect record at 3, ended prematurely by a leg injury. One of the great tragedies of horseracing. He is a joy to watch, unspectacular-looking, but running like the wind!
2009: don't forget Little Current, in 1974, the year after Sec's TC....he easily won the Preakness and Belmont, but was shut out of the Derby by a field of 22 horses...later a limit of 20 was put on the number of horses in the Belmont...Current was a one run horse, and stayed near the rear until the final turn, when he poured it on...there were so many horses that he was forced to run in the middle of the track...still he passed most of the field, but finished 5th....watch the race on U Tube!
Arcaro: “Nobody knew how good Count Fleet really was.” Longdon: “I didn’t have to rate him; he’d rate himself. After I let him go to the front, he never got beat.”..."Count Fleet had speed and I never did ask him to run. Never even shook my stick at him.” "it was that unknown potential that makes him so intriguing, since he reportedly never broke a sweat from the Champagne Stakes to the Belmont
@cindylou6004able : Longden and Hertz always said they were never after time records, as they were out simply to win races. Remember, The Count hurt himself in the Belmont and Hertz never raced him again. True, his opponents in the Belmont were second rate, but after Sham dropped out, Secretariat's opposition was second rate, too.
Two years ago your comment, but thanks for feeling the EXACT same way I do. Sec this and Sec that, his fans need to come back down to earth. I like your comment A LOT!!!
2009: a new video was just put up of LC winning the Prekness....it is all about him, how Rivera followed the rail with so little room, then when he finally got thru to the lead, just won by 5 lengths in a hand ride...he was easily the best horse in 1974...lost the Derby cuz of racing luck...
@1948BigCy Exactly. MOW, Citation at 3, Count Fleet... No one knows how fast those horses could have run on their best day on a good track -- cause they never had to run -- they galloped or cantered to victories. Nice Arcaro quote...
@evyn10014 Yup.."Unlike modern Belmont winners, he was galloping the entire race...Average winning times for the Belmont from 1938-1949 was 2:30 flat...The final quarter was done in 24-3/5, a fantastic time considering he was just galloping. Many of the Count’s interior fractions suggested that had he not been eased so early in many of his races, he might have set many more track or world records.” Jimmy Jones forbid Arcaro to win by more than he had to..Cy apparently liked that demand!
Let me state first that I am a SECRETARIAT FAN and will always be one. That being said, I was watching a clip on all the Triple Crown winners and the horse that impressed me besides Secretariat was Count Fleet! I loved the way he ran and loved those long legs of his. I was a little surprised that he was the horse that impressed me so much since you don't hear A LOT about him other than being a Triple Crown winner, and you hear so much about MOW and Citation. He was a beautiful horse and would have loved to see him run. Secretariat fans can appreciate other horses, too.
Well said. I'm about the same as you. Count Fleet was a great one. When you visit sites such as this one, and many others that feature other great horses, it's amazing how many times Secretariat is mentioned, often in a negative context. Funny how, somewhat unknowingly, many posters are almost acknowledging that Secretariat is indeed the measuring stick.
I know your comments are a year old but I have to thank you for your comments ie "nauseating Sec idolators" and "if they want to pray at the House Of Secretariat", you seem reasonable and give Count Fleet the credit he really deserves. I personally, think Secretariat fans are SO rude and nasty and such smart alecs and they get on my last nerve & they go to Man O' War sites and just rip him apart, Man O' War happens to be my favorite. So, thanks for the comments and the laugh. It's refreshing.
Arcaro: “Nobody knew how good Count Fleet really was.” Except Longdon maybe. He considered him the best he had ever ridden, and he had ridden quite a few. Longdon said he never let him run...he finished his races in a gallop. That he'd rate himself...once he let him get to the front, he never got beat. Tragic that he had to be retired so early.
Whatever ... you know MY bias, Carly :-). You're undoubtedly right about being underrated (sort of like Cy!). This video is beautiful, showing a horse who just loved to run! Totally dominant, demolishing his opposition, I just love this magnificent colt!
2009: There were so many great horses in the 1970's that LC seemed to be just another one...The Bid, a terrific horse, lost the Belmont, but should have been a TC winner, like LC should have...Just proof that great horses don't always win the TC...
My horse is distantly related to Man O’ War, Sir Gallahad, Gallant Fox, War Admiral, Secretariat, Count fleet, and her sire is Giacomo. SHE MOVES JUST LIKE COUNT FLEET & GIACOMO!!!
2009: Oh, don't forget Swaps!! A horse from Calilforna...He won the Derby, but then his owners took him back to CA...He holds many records, if that is your cup of tea...the poor colt was plagued with hoof problems, but could he run!!! Secretariat was a TV horse for the TV generation...good looking, the first horse to win the TC since Citation in 1948...The story of Big Cy is a sad one, and I have written a screenplay...we are trying to make a movie from it...
I know a couple of Count Fleet's offspring..... and they are (female and male), highly intelligent , reliable and straightforward.... ...and, sound........
My point is Sec may have been the greatest. Fine. My personnel favorites were Slew and Affirmed But I'm not going to sites about other horses talking about them.
Blue Swords was a descendant of the tail male Domino line. His damsire was Man o' War. His great-grandsire (on his dam's side) was the uber-inbred to Domino horse, High Time (Commando, Domino's son, was bred to a Domino daughter. That horse, Ultimus, was also bred to a Domino daughter, producing High Time). Anyhow, Blue Swords did pretty good, finishing 2nd to a horse as great as Count Fleet, so many times. Count Fleet was the great-grandsire of Mr. Prospector. So his pedigree legacy, is pretty secure. Count Fleet was the damsire of Kelso. It's too bad that Kelso was a gelding. It would have been interesting to see what kind of offspring he would have had.
2009: Count and Cy had speed that they were never asked to use...to win by 31 lengths in record time was a waste of horse: Sec could have won in 2:28 against those horses...Remember Simply Majestic? He has a world record...Demi's Bret, who never won a stakes race has a world's record...so much for speed records...Sabertooth, and the list goes on....Miss Grillo has a world's record at 2-1/4 and 2-1/2 miles...they will never be beaten since no horse is raced that far anymore!!!!
Fifth was great...the announcer didn't even mention his name, but you can see him running down the center of the track and passing all the other horses...in the Belmont, he ran at the back with a horse named Kin Run...he is out of the picture for most of the race, but when at the far turn, the annoujncer says "and Little Cujrrent is 8th." he comes into the picture and finds a hole and from there it's over...
@1948BigCy The thing that seems to be lost on most people is that these horses winning eased up or at a gallop DOES mean they could have run A LOT faster. But their trainers wanted to save them from breaking down. Which CY and MOW never did at 3 -- but Count Fleet did. He hurt himself in the Belmont stretch and ended his career. So we have no idea how fast they could go. Speaking of breaking down, just read the book on Ruffian, so tragic. That horse was FAST... Sadly not durable though.
@cindylou6004able He should definitely get more credit for the Belmont! If he hadn't hurt himself in the race he might have won by 30 lengths. But he is rated as one of the very best of all time and that's an ungodly club... All the top four or five horses have a legit claim on being the all time best... Love The Fleet but I think Dr. Fager is more underrated...
@evyn10014 First part of the quote below: Longdon: "Sec't is a helluva horse, but I don't think he could beat Count Fleet...you'd have to prove it to me..." Arcaro insisted that he never let Cy run...Sande said the same thing about MoW..."Shoemaker tells me that Swaps is the best..." Only jockes can judge speed, class, if their horse is having a good day...how about Ribot and othe great European horses? Quarterhorses?
@rscarbro100 : Noor was a GREAT horse. He didn't "kick" Cy's butt; he barely won and had to set world/track records to beat him, while Cy gave him quite a bit of weight. Cy NEVER needed excuses. Anyway, that was when he was 5. Looked at another way, Cy beat every other CA horse except Noor--easily (and set a world record). SMILE.
2009: Cy's story is very sad...he should have been retired at the end of his 3rd year with a record of 27 for 29..forced to run at ages 5 and 6 to fulfill his owner's dream of him becoming the first horse to win a million dollars...then Wright dies before his 6th year, and his wife, who could have stopped and retired Cy, decides to try to fulfill her late husband's dream..Cy finally does, but was it worth it?
@rscarbro100 Noor is in the HoF and is one of Bloodhorses top 100. Out west (once again), he broke several track and world records. Since you think absolute time is everything, I expect you are impressed by this (SMILE).
@rscarbro100 : My good man, how come EVERY racing authority disagrees with you? William Nack himself wrote (describing Kelso): "Great horses don't need excuses." Guess he changed his mind when writing about Sec. MOW was SO good, he scared off the competition. Cy beat every horse from coast to coast, whatever age, whatever the track, many twice. The Count, unfortunately, we never got to see him much at 3. Oh...all times were slower back then...check the records. Doesn't make them lesser horses.
2009" I agree...we have had so many terrific horses in the past 100 years, it is folly to try to say one was the best...especially because all he did was run a few fast races... I don't think there will ever be another TC winner...maybe Double Crown...after this year, maybe not even that...Horse racing has changed so much from what it was...SAD...
2009: I don't know the specifics of his hoof problems, just that he had them... True,,. unfortunately, LC ran in the shadow of Sec....that loss in the Derby was horse luck......too many horses, too far on the outside, and actually too short...a little longer he would have beat those horses in front... It's a heartbreaking screenplay with an upbeat ending...he wins one million dollars and is retired...
@carlykaiser Buit rated at 5 all time. He might have been underrated by the general public but the Blood-horse panel of experts obviously rated him. What I can't believe is that all 3 TC races were held in a 4 week period. Cameron thought it would be a good idea to race the week between the Preakness and the Belmont in the Withers "just to keep him sharp." I know Citation did the same. That's some effort.
Just amazing how a video about Count Fleet, one of the fastest, gamest horses ever has to be infected by a bunch of comments about how great Secretariat was and how every other horse was second rate. Unreal...
I think this is what I was trying to say. Your favorite was MOW. My favorites are Slew and Affirmed. But I'm not coming to these sites to bash. Usually I click on these sites out of curiosity. I really don't know that much about the TC winners before Secretarial.
I became a secretariat fan after watching the movie, and I have to agree that some people do put him up there with the gods when it comes to racing. I could tell from this video alone that count fleet was incredible, but that doesn't mean secretariat wasn't incredible either. both horses were miracles along with other horses to so saying one is great by bashing the other one doesn't make any sense because secretariat also broke records just like count fleet was fast just like count fleet also got hurt ( mouth cyst ) and still made the top three with each gallop he felt intense pain and still made top 3 just like count fleet . Only difference between the two is secretariat did more links at the Belmont stake which probably because secretariat didnt have much competition where as count fleet competition was faster. So I honestly think if they raced secretariat would've been a match maybe even tied , but they never did race and both from two different time frames so it's dumb argue about it
@rscarbro100 "Great horses don't need excuses." quoth Bill Nack, Sec Guru. Unlike you guys, I don't claim Cy was the best horse ever. But he did have a sophomore year that I think is beyond reproach, without excuses.
@evyn10014 Fillies? Hard to say...so many great ones...Twilight Tear, Calumet, was great; the ones you mention of course; Kostroma; the two warhorses, Kincsem and Sotemia; Busher; Gallorette; Affectionately; Genuine Risk; Personal Ensign...I love to watch them run...Gorella, what a closing kick! Actually, there seems to be a "Fillie's Lib" movement: the girls are finally getting some respect...Go for Want...Two Lea...Wistful...I love 'em all!!!
I know your comment was 2 years ago, but I have to agree. Okay,okay we get it. , Secretariat was the greatest. But personally I loved Seattle Slew and Affirmed was so under rated. I don't know that much about the ones before Secretariat but The Count looked like a pistol.
2009: Absolute speed has so many varying factors that it is a poor way to judge a horse...Sec loves think that Count and Cy were always running their fastest....no, they ran to win the race...that is all that counts...Longdon though that The Count in his prime could beat Sec. Riva Ridge actually ran 1-3/16 mile faster than Sec. Lots of mediocre horses hold records...one good day is all it takes.
Hi "Jayne" not to drag this out, but Man O' War is the greatest!!! I totally agree with you about going to sites & BASHING other horses. Sec fans LOVE to do that. They go to Man O' War sites ALL THE TIME & spew venom about MOW & talk about Sec like he's the 2nd coming. They ALWAYS have to get their 2 cents in about Sec. Like you say, IF they love a certain horse go to that website and talk about him, if you are a fan of CF let's say, talk about CF not how much greater they think Sec is.
@eckythimble Cy was bigger than WarAd, who was much smaller than his dad, and The Count who they said looked like a filly. Why Cy lost by 3 lengths when given a pound by Noor in their final race is a puzzle even race experts can't solve. He was being raced alot at 5 by Wright in attempt to win a million$. Did his old injury flare up? He went back East after that race...Noor was unknown and seriously underweighted....Cy could have retired at 5 had this been corrected in time...sigh
@eckythimble Cy lost to Noor by the smallest of margins while Noor was setting world records and Cy was carring sometimes 22 lbs. more. at 5 on those fast CA tracks. Of course, you know that splits within a longer race don't count. Time is such an elusive, dubious criterion... Count was 2:03.6 20 lengths in the lead in the Belmont, before winning by 25 lengths. Strangely, his time was the same as Cy's, who only won by 8 lengths. No doubt, The Count could have run faster...
@evyn10014 MoW and Sec't were top notch sires, that's for sure...and if you include a horse's career at stud along with his career on the track when adding up the sum of his greatness, Cy falls behind those two...many horses, who are only so-so when they raced, produce great colts and fillys...and vice versa...one of the oddities of horse breeding!!
Actually you were not agreeing with him. He was stating that it's unreal how Sec fans think Sec was the greatest thereby discounting the great Count Fleet (which I think was the 2nd best horse of all time) and you said "Okay okay we get it Sec was the greatest" so that is NOT what he was saying, thereby, not agreeing with him. That's the way it looks as you and Evyn have stated. But thanks for commenting.
@1948BigCy Sea the Stars is an amazing horse, but if you bring that up on most these pages all you hear is he sucks. Uh, no. Winning the Epsom and the Arc the way he did, pretty amazing. Goldikova and Zarkava too.
jason scott I so agree! I don't believe even Secretariat would have been able to beat him with equal conditions, equal weights, and both not restrained. Man O War was often restrained and not let go.
Lorraine: I have been debating Sec fans for about 5 years, and I have not seen a nice one...I have been accused of hating Sec, which of course I don't...I dislike his fans who "overrate" him and turn him into a god...carly deleted their comments from Citation's site and told them to grow up...I have been deleted from Sec sites by cf1970 because I disagree with him...His fans think that every time Sec ran he could break every record...they are nuts and offensive...
@Pari28 I hear you...I love the Count, but Cy's life would made a much better movie...it's got everything...I've already written a script...Phil has read it...I'd love to have him be a technical director...there is somebody else working a a script.,..now we need a director and angels:-)
@rscarbro100 : Too bad the vast majority of race historians disagree with you. MOW, the Count, and Cy would have been monsters whenever they ran. Sec would have been 12 for 12 at 3 except he lost racetrack greats like Onion, Prove Out, and Angle Light. Right...You really ought to learn to write defensively. Johnny Longdon didn't think Secretariat could beat Count Fleet at his best...I tend to believe him more than you...
1602: I don't know much about Ruffian..she probably has gotten favor because of her terrible end... I am a big Count fan because of Longdon's description of him...Sec fans will tell you he was not great because he did not set any speed records, altho he did at Belmont for 1943...they are obsessed with speed records, which is not what racing is all about... And many are rude, nasty, and infect other horse's sites to spew their nonsense....Sec was probably smarter than many of his fans
Jayne: There are many underrated horses...Slew and Affirmed being two of them....There is just one overrated horse...Secretariat...but don't tell that to the acolytes who worship at the Shrine of Secretariat!!!
@evyn10014 A couple of nauseating Sec idolators do this at any horse site they choose...they are in love with the big chestnut...and of course "love is blind"..."methinks the ladies do protest too much"...
Joe: Sec had one record, got beat 3 times...You are condemning yourself, because YOU are the one who says nobody could beat Sec. None of us say that...and none of us have potty mouths...go back to the Sec sites, Joe, where everybody believes your nonsense...
@rscarbro100 : It is YOU who cannot accept the truth. Sec was fast, but absolute speed is only part of a horse's makeup. No one knows how fast Cy, MOW or Count could have run...they were never asked. They ran on slower tracks and many other variables make TIME a poor way to judge a horse. The pros know this. Sec didn't come close to performing the miracles Cy did at 3. FACT.
@rscarbro100 : Which proves nothing except absolute times are meaningless. I don't intend to go over this again with you, as you will never understand. Why don't you leave this site and take your demented delusions to a Sec site, where at least you'll be among uncritical friends. I'm going to delete all my comments here; if you have a shred of decency, you'll do the same. No matter what your opinion, this site is about the GREAT COUNT....(smile)
@rscarbro100 I simply called them both great, underrated horses. Secretariat is overrated by all and a silly movie about him is coming out soon--wow...Arcaro always called Cy the best. But you, like all Sec idolators, believe what you want to believe. Who cares? (I've already asked Carly to remove all my comments here. Why don't you do the same?)
Joe: It's hard to believe you are such an immate over 50 guy...grow up... Once more, Cy and Count never ran their fastest, ergo, it is total speculation to say that they could not beat Sec...both their jockeys said both horses could...I wonder what your wife would say if she read your posts...
