i dunno why the caller is so sure she isn't lying seems like her behavior is standard for KdXd and wanting to needle OP by making him think she bluffed
I have no problem seeing her play as a good one (well, or at least a reasonable one). She played an over pair hard -- and you called no matter what, which she interpreted as AQ, which she nicely beats. When she ends up with her Kd on the river she plays like she beats your flush -- and she could have thought she put you off a small flush, or beat your queen. A smaller bet might get more for her from your queen, but the shove might get you off a small flush -- while her previous large bets were good vs your queen or flush draw.
IMO. Told the truth. V was too excited. She was too proud of her "blocking the nuts" play.. IMO... She would have been dejected not getting called with the nuts? Edit We've all seen winners tilt (undermaxxing)? V didn't seemingly descriptively display that?
So either this “maniacal player”: 1. Had one of the 3 combos of KdKx AND 2. Opted not to 4-bet pre despite being in a 1-3 home game and oop to 2 players still in the hand AND 3. After slow playing preflop decided to then donk the flop AND 4. Then decided to bet big again on the turn despite hero having AA and QQ in his range. 5. Then decided to turn into a bluff on the river. Or 1. She had Kxhh for the nut flush and lied.
The fact that Bart and all these commentators say "if she led with a set she just gets my stack" is exactly why I lead flopped sets into preflop raisers. I want the whole thing, not just a couple bets.
Haven't watched to the end yet, and agree with everything up to the turn. I'm guessing hero just calls turn, but I think I'd be jamming. 100% looks like a diamond/combo draw (T9dd, JTdd, J9dd, KJdd, KTdd, Axdd) or a worse queen. If a blank comes on the river and she jams, it's an easy snap, but if a diamond or 9, T, J or K peels off it would be a miserable spot to be in. I say it's a good time to simplify matters, and deny equity/charge her to draw. She'd be getting 3:1 on a call, so would need like 25% equity. If she JUST has the diamond draw, she'd have 9 outs and like 20% equity.
If she was that excited to bluff you that she went into the other room and told everyone, she would have shown both cards; I never believe someone that tells me they had a bluff but didn't show it.
Doesn't make sense then why show the D? Why not show the OTHER K? That's obviously a lot more titling. If your theory is 'well because she had the flush". Then why show EITHER card? You have to remember maniacs do the opposite of what mose people do. Most people show the bluff or try to get you to think they were bluffing so that later on they come in with strength. But maniacs try to show strength so later they can bluff you. She's trying to suggest she had a flush. Most likely she had Kd Qx.
Your belief or disbelief relates to accuracy because? Sometimes one card alone confirms the bluff without revealing the exact combination. Either way I'm lying. Bluff or lying about a bluff, why would you believe anyone? Poker certainly gives a healthy skepticism.
@@eshootziscrs2868 Why would I believe someone who's purposely being deceitful? Why would they not be completely transparent and show both cards if they wanted to brag about a bluff? Because they didn't have the hand, they claimed to.
@@eshootziscrs2868sometimes one card shown confirms a bluff. But the Kd obviously doesn’t. Indeed, it’s the card that gives her the most possible combos of the nuts. If she wanted to show she was bluffing then she’d have shown the Kc or whatever.
@@relaxationmeditationsleep2934 If you're always going to assume that the flop donk + turn donk line is an overpocket then that's on you. Have fun missing out on a lot of value!
nobody in a 1/3 is bluffing with that much showdown value...that is a sophisticated big stack bluff only situation and she is not equipped to make it. She had a king high flush for sure.
KdKx makes sense. Donk bets from occasional amateur type players are almost always weak hands betting for protection. Caller said she usually folds to a 3bet, so maybe her 4bet range is exactly AA. The Ad on the river is a great bluff spot, since your flush could basically only be JdTd. Interestingly I think this counts in favor of her bluffing. If she had KdJd or KdTd, then there are no reasonable flushes at all that caller can have because all the diamonds are in her hand or on the board. So what is she getting a call from? But maybe she is not thinking that much. And this player is just not ever playing Kd7d etc against a 3bet preflop. So it's KK or KJ/KT, nothing else is possible. Yeah, I think KdKx makes a ton of sense here.
There’s a high likelihood that she had the nut flush. Odd that she’d flash the Kd and not the other king. While anything is possible, if I claimed to have bluffed someone with a specific hand and made it a big deal, I’d want to make sure both cards were seen. But hey who the heck knows, people do all sorts of interesting things.
Can't be sure if villain had what she said she had, but I've noticed a trend on these call in hands of villain turning a decently strong showdown hand into a bluff.
Haven't watched the rest of the video yet but that's interesting, I specifically didn't go to play on Thanksgiving night because Bravo said there were only 2 2/5 games w/no list and no 10/10 games. We usually get at least 5 2/5 games on any random day and 1 or 2 10/10.
GET THE MONEY IN! It doesn't matter how "well" you hand read or "play" in position in this situation. There are two slam dunk decisions in this hand and they were spoiled. I'm gonna tell you all what... I can't wait to get out there to play. Lately there have been a handful of clowns on this show. Both the callers and the villains in the hands. These little mind games and egregious mistakes being made are a problem. Further to that, I'm elated to hear the calls come in from Des Plaines specifically. There's going to be problems at the table for these clowns. CAN'T WAIT.
I've played 100s of hours of 1/3(probably like a lot of the commenters here) and I can count on one finger the number of times KK has been anything but a 4-bet -> all in pre at these stakes. And that was when I had it and the villian was the ultimate OMC who's 3-bet range consisted of red aces. If he was feeling frisky, maybe even black aces.
I put her on jack10 diamonds from the beginning. Semi bluffing double draws is something I love doing as a novice trying to play smart. Idk if I would have done it with only one draw though. Also I agree that there should have been a big re-raise on the turn
I think we missed part of the story where he showed his hand. If he doesn't show and just mucks, no way does she think she's bluffing with KdKc. Nah, this is a good fold.
I absolutely believe the villain. From the flop I put her on kings. She's just not very smart. She got too attached to her hand and changed her range to magically include aces and flushes. She kept barrelling all the way after no aces showed up. I absolutely believe her. I am not sure how often I call river as played but I think I'm just getting it in on the turn
3bet pre, call large donk bet on flop and turn, fold river. If you want to lose a lot of money quickly with zero chance of winning I suggest using that exact line.
People love to barrel with a flush draw. I used to do it every time until I realized that everyone else is also doing that and it loses me alot of money. I still do it but it's very situation dependant now instead of automatic. She's got a flush, probably has something like KJ.
The SPR combined with ranges is much more important than the number of big blinds In this case it’s a 6.2 SPR or so, so top pair should stack off in this situation
My point is that AQ is better as a call than a raise, It's a 3 streets game post flop. there are other hands in your range that might be better to raise and call a shove.
@@mojonidi I agree with that I'll take AA no diamond for sure. But on Q82 vs this odd donk she has a flush draw, a queen or some other hand that isnt giving us future action anyways. I wouldn't mind getting absolute max value here
i prefer a turn jam, but i think hero played it fine. for me its close between jamming turn or calling turn and folding to river diamonds. she really cant ever jam river with a worse hand than us if a diamond comes. we've called flop and turn, so we have something.
Question, would you rather have a table image of someone who is willing to pull a wild bluff or someone who is capable of making a big laydown? I used to think having an image as someone who makes big bluffs was a good image to get lite calls with but I have changed my position over time for various reasons.
Well, that depends. If people think you're capable of making a wild bluff they're more likely to try to trap you, but also more inclined to pay you off when you have the goods. If they think you're willing to make big lay downs they're going to bluff your socks off. The higher the limit the more what I say is true. Now, if you're playing 1/2 limit plo8 it's an entirely different story obviously.
@@datsumcrzysht ideally your tendencies shouldn't be to over fold or to bluff wildly. The other players will base their perception of you from what you show. I personally never show a bluff if it gets through, some people do to exploit it later. Some people turn over big hands when they fold to show they laid down a big hand to exploit that later. In general I try to appear as balanced as possible. I have found in some table dynamics that portraying one image or the other can be exploitable.
That river illustrates the secret to poker, which always comes down to folding or not, i,d be hard pressed to fault anyone who called that. So calling isnt the question, the question is folding. or not, " the key to poker is aggression, the Secret to poker is folding " Roostah. After all the best players fold 75% of thier hands right? Me personally? Ida called and i would have lost but i love to gamble and i want to have it know im sticky.
Even if she had what she said that she had, it's not the worst fold. Hero has sets and flushes there. He definitely should call some two pair combos there, but he can fold some and still defend at appropriate frequencies.
@John Smith that would be the combo of two pair hands that he would call. I'm simply saying that he should randomize between calling and folding the two pair combos. Not sure how he would go about randomizing it but it's fairly arbitrary. Hero can call in that spot if the flush that gets there is diamonds and folds if the flush that gets there are hearts. Arbitrary. Just need to sometimes call, sometimes fold.
Yeah. Either her bluffs had some equity (ie flush draws) in which case he should have raised…or her bluffs were mostly just complete air in which case he has to call the river.
This hand is great because if the caller is stuck making the wrong decision no matter what. If the diamond misses then he pays off KK and since it hits he folds the best hand.
Theory #1: After spending a full day with family - at least some of whom make your teeth hurt - it stands to reason that you'd be a little irritated. Theory #2: If the "visitors" live nowhere near a casino, and the host does . . . You do the math. And pissed off poker players rarely play their best game.
I like the Cantebury south of Minneapolis but yea playing limit sucks... it's not much more than playing something like Ultimate Texas Hold'em a carnival game.
with the Ad on the river that really takes away a lot of hands that a flush will complete... I'm at call thinking she has KQ or even an kings that might think that the flop might get checked...
H put himself in awkward position in this hand, particularly on the river. Would one shove river and fear their cash cow away if they're holding nut flush with other 2 top flush cards on the board?? (Ad, Qd). Hint: this is not a question.
The biggest takeaway to me is that if you’re going to fold to a diamond, especially the ace of diamonds on the river, not shoving turn is a mistake. If it’s a draw you should be shoving there, especially if you rule out overpairs. It seems like your read of her range didn’t correspond with the actions you took
I ran it through poker snowie as best I could at least (2/4 1100 effective stack no ante etc.) and interesting enough it wants a fold pre-flop (not sure how many players but since there was talk of a lojack and middle position I'm assuming 9 or 10) of course that would be against bots/tags and we know how wide these guys are I don't think I'd want to fold. That being said it wants a call on the flop and turn and a fold on the river; it thinks calling river is a huge losing call (-40.63 EV).
If you're putting her on diamonds and discounting sets, then this is a turn jam. I personally think it's quite rare for people to donk flops with draws, they usually donk them when they're sure they have the best hand. Mostly that's 2 pair plus. But here, if she played KK pre-flop conservative, I can see thinking KK has won the flop. I was not crazy about this caller though. Seemed very sure of himself & then gets outplayed. Talks about how easy he can play this perfect from position & then gets roasted. In this specific situation I'm never calling the flop. I might raise or even fold, but I'm never calling here. Unless I had a different hand, like QQ or AKdd. Then I'd just call this flop.
Its a logical fallacy to expect players in these games to have any kind of strategy. Doesnt 4 bet KK and then donks. I'm donking the next flopped set i make
I'm calling here but if I'm the villain I have to think the hero played this as a classic nut flush draw. When the ace of diamonds rivers it really opens doors for her.
maybe in theory, but the amount of 1/3 nl players doing the math on the whole 'wait he cant have the ace high flush so im going to turn my red kings into a bluff here' is, what, like less than 5%? if that? idk maybe even less than 1%.
Stopped video at 9:50. 1. I don't see how you could possibly be behind. 2. Kinda surprised nobody even mentioned AdKd (which, OOP, she doesn't have to three-bet preflop).
Third and final comment. I once stacked TWO GUYS at 5-5 for almost 400BBs with 4c2c in the small blind. UTG opened for $15 and got FIVE calls. (I wanted to fold but my fingers revolted). Pot: $95 Flop: Ac 5h 9s 3c I checked. UTG bet $50 and got two calls (one of which was me). Pot: $245 The turn was Bingo (3c) and I checked. UTG bet $150, next to act called, and I ripped it for $3,700+. UTG shook his head and said, "If you have 4-2, you deserve every nickel" before calling. The third guy said, "What he said" and called. I was 90% sure UTG had flopped a set, and 99% sure the other guy had as well, but how do you OVERCALL with 99 in that situation. Then again, how do you small call with AA there ? I mean, my raise was more than 6x pot !
I do not think for a second she has 88 here, and if she does, as Bart said, she gets my money. Need to raise/jam turn here. I think best is flop raise to $300-350ish and jamming any non diamond turn. Money has to go in before the river
Bart says it's unlikely and not that good move to bluff with KdKx. Well, it's actually genius kind of move. You block the nuts with Kd, which allows you to be very polorized and you can go for it. Better question is, on these stakes - Is she really that clever to make it? Honestly, I don't think so. I'm more inclined to the fact, that she lied about her hand. She probably had KJdd and got lucky on the River. Or she overvalued her KdQx and got lucky enough by getting a fold from hero.
Stop giving solid recreational players the same thought processes as higher level regs or pros because they tend to do a lot of spazzy shit that doesn't make sense when you analyze it. The donk lead into an open or a 3 bet is top pair or over pair in the largest majority of showdowns I've seen in live poker and it happens a lot. Recreational players commonly take a line and will stick with that line no matter what the run out is because many of them don't pay attention to board texture to figure out why you are calling. Their thought process is, I think I'm winning the hand now with this flop and so now I just need to continue to bet and get value. Sometimes making difficult decisions such as calling after a check scares them so they preemptively shove to keep from being bluffed. Her showing just one card could be something she saw some other good player do so she just does the same thing. I will show one card if I think it will distract a person who loves to over analyze every hand but it isn't to make them think I have any certain hand or because I want them to think that I bluffed or anything like that.
@@Kelavis yes, tendencies are the best most reliable tell in poker. To assign tendencies to a broad group based on whether you think they are rec, reg, or pro is not reliable. Tendencies are human nature that affects everyone, it's the brains shortcut to handle common situations you face. Even when you think you are actively trying to break tendencies your brain is still creating new tendencies to handle those situations. Common tendencies are like what I listed with the donk lead and I've seen recs and regs do this.
Wait a second! She had kings and he folded? Did he show? How'd she know she bluffed? She must have thought her kings was good, i guess it'd be tough he him to have diamonds, but he could have TJ d, i dont believe her , she chased that flush and hit it, probably K Td.
She had nothing to lose because she already lost. he had everything to win logic was making him think otherwise. Never sit at a poker table if you can't afford to lose what you brought with you. Making a uncertainty decisions with pokers it's really what the games about. She had him all figured out he's too proud to lose .Making good decision is not the whole game but helps . so he lost less than 200 or he could have won 600 plus. ( decision was to save money or lose more money ) ?? everyone knows how he plays please with no risk .
Odd, I immediately put her on kings when she made the large donk bet; I mean she opened for 15, called to fade an ace on the flop and then immediately went for value. True she risked being up against queens or aces, but I kind of like her line. I think Bart missed it because he's not thinking at the level of many players at lower stakes. I give her credit for jamming the river when the flush came in, I doubt she would have done it if it wasn't the diamond ace.
100% she had KK and her line makes much more sense with KK than with every other hand. Recreational players don't donk bet 2/3 of the pot with a flush draw. With a draw her bet size would have been much lower.
I've seen villains who are not thinking players spaz out with Kings when the river is an Ace thinking they can only win by bluffing. They're not thinking about blockers or showdown, it's like they get scared and stop thinking critically. Also, she donked into you so she is clearly not a thinking player and you have to call much wider. They very well might think Q2 is the nuts. Sometimes you're shown a flush but as played I don't think I can fold top two pair against this player type.
I think the logic when oop is that they don’t know what they’ll do if they check and you bet. So they just jam leaving 3 possibilities: 1. You call thinking they’re full of it and lose (let’s say river was As not Ad and hero holds KQhh) and V looks like a genius for going for thin value. 2. You call and beat them. They just claim they were turning their hand into a bluff. 3. You fold and they never have to show their hand. All better options in their mind than check evaluating.
She's celebrating outplaying the caller for good reason: She simply outplayed the caller. Bart's re-analysis at the end is nice for empathy, but I don't think he made a good fold.
@@pot_kivach160 The thing is you can't read their hand, period. You make a mathematical estimation that middle pair + good kicker is all you need. Yes variance is high. But you will come out ahead in the end. I have played countless maniacs and I am way ahead of them just calling down their bets and letting them hand themselves. Sometimes they show up with the nuts but often time not. Do some Flopzilla work on VPIP and board textures. You will find once players start going above 35% VPIP they hit the board less and less because they have so much trash in their range.
@@FuzzypupPoker yes and no. When you can't read - you yield. There are sharks who know how to take full advantage of calling stations, you know. Besides, the law of probability is agains CS. That Flopzilla thing might be ok with live games. Online poker is a crap, (rigged!!), so no Law of Probability applies there. (Regardless of someone's VPIP%).
@@pot_kivach160 If they are sharks they aren't maniacs. Maniac isn't someone skilled. They just barrel away. In some cases yea you have to fold. Say it is a single raised pot that you call, call the flop, the turn, and the board runs out like 7s6s2c8s9s and you hold Ad7d yea you are folding. 4 straight, no spade. there is a ~44% chance he has a spade and is just blinding blasting it thinking he can make you fold the 3rd nut flush. But I only ran into one of these and by chance the maniac was bluffing with compete air. All the other times they have crap or hit their rarity. Once I saw a manic lose 15 buyins at a table. I felt bad because by luck he should have won at least 3 of the hands. He missed everything for 2 hours. The whole table was 400bbs deep because of him. I was 750bbs deep because I had the balls to call him down.
His opponent is a steamed up woman in a R.O.E. game aggressively donking every street. If we don't jam on her turn lead I think we decide to snap call her river shove regardless of what card comes. Ok let me see how this plays out...
this just proves that guys hate losing to a woman. look at all these hateful comments. unbelievable - what would be said if the gender of the villain was not revealed? why does it matter whether the villian was a man or woman or non-binary?
No. A donk (short for donkey) is someone betting into the pre-flop aggressor from early position. It is generally a dumb idea, because now you either have to balance a donking range, which is hard to do, or everyone knows you don't have squat when you check from early position.
