How often is this ever a check raise bluff on the river, given the board texture and sizing in the games that you play in? BTW, Exploit 15 of the CLP Small Stakes Exploit Guide “Overfolding When bluffs would be Paired” can be listened to for free here: crushlivepoker.com/courses/crushing-no-limit-holdem-poker/definitive-guide-to-small-stakes-exploits/volume-viii
The sizing of the check raise tells the story of a classic value bet, and I'd likely fold since I'm generally a tight player. In most instances, I would have checked back the river fearing a raise, or worse, a shove. But, I play fairly tight, and it does depend on the player, and the read of how the play went down. Most often though I'm checking back the river here avoiding the check raise altogether. 😎👍✌
I think the hero should check it back when the flush comes in on the river, because the villain can have Q-X of spades or 8-X of spades, but the hero's line doesn't make any sense for having a flush (that's also why I think the villain doesn't need to check raise J-10 on the turn, because the villain shouldn't be scared of the hero making a flush on the river). But if the river card didn't bring in the flush, should the hero check it back, or should he go for three streets of value?
What's ironic about these calls is that we get them from the perspective of the caller who is presumed to be the "better/more skilled" player in the hand and villain is just some random goober that accidentally found himself at a poker table one day. But in reality, the opposite is more likely true. Caller accuses villain of "clicking buttons" and "running pure". But from what I just heard, villain actually pooped on caller, and snatched the soul right out of his body. From Villain's perspective - calls 3 bet with suited gapper. Flops pair and back door draws to a straight and flush. Calls c bet. Turn is a gin card that offers all the outs he was looking for on flop. In a lot of situations, this is a good check raise card to run a semi bluff, but villain recognizes that caller is all over this board texture, and just flat calls. River banks the almost certainly good flush. Villain has the insight to, again, recognize that caller is all over the board texture, so he checks to set trap. Caller of course walks right into it, spring the trap and paying it off. Caller got dunked on. The only think I would've done differently from villain would've been check raising sizing.... I would've made it larger, at least 700, but perhaps villain had a reason for this sizing.
Totally agree,see it time after time on this channel.Most callers seem to have an ego that won’t let them fold. Obvious fold here as Bart says what bluffs are there yet the “hero” calls like a sticky fish
Agree. However from villains perspective what are we targetting with a large check raise on the river? AA (3 combos), QQ (3 combos) ...KK would probably not bet flop so we can discount that.. AQ (9 combos), AK (9 combos)...that's about it. So hero holds a lot more 2-pair than sets. 2 pair are insta-fold against large bets...so I actually like the small-ish size to get a crying call from the majority of hero's holdings if we have pegged him as a sticky fish (with *some* skill).
Sklansky: “If you bet on the end without the nuts….. you are a dog if you are raised”. I realize most of your watchers don’t remember who David Sklansky is. He wrote some of the first (at the time best) books on holdem in the late 1990s when it started to become really popular. Some of his advice still holds. I last saw him in the big game room at Bellagio about -3 yrs ago. Thanks for great instructional vids Bart!
I think that this is the best time for the villain to not check-raise the turn with J-10. There is a flush draw out there, but the Ace and King of spades are both on the board, so it's much harder for someone to have a flush draw. If the Ace and King were not spades, and the Queen and 8 were spades, the straight should be much more worried about a flush draw, and it'd make a lot more sense to check-raise. This does mean that Queen-X of spades is now the nut flush draw, but if there's a time to not try to charge flush draws, and still feel confident in his hand if a third spade comes on the river, it would be when the Ace high and King high flush draws are not possible. Also, when he check-raises, he needs to have bluffs in his range and not be 100% value. In this situation, I think the pair + flush draw hands make the best bluffs, but he can only be doing this with Q-X or 8-X of spades, and not with Ace-X or King-X of spades. I think that if you're putting the villain on a middling hand because of his preflop play, that this includes not just middling suited connectors and low pocket pairs, but also suited Ace hands like A-7 suited.
I’ve just never been in this position where I’m not beat at 2/5 live games. Players just won’t make this move without at least JT and far more likely a flush.
@@nickross5459 it’s a good question and you’ll certainly see this raised on the turn with some frequency, and that’s probably the smart play. But a lot of live players won’t raise for fear of losing value, even though the raise is likely to get more money in the pot long term.
Like the background. Another great video. Check raise on the River in low stakes just always seems like a fold when you lose to straights and or runner runner flush 😢😢
Haven't finished the video. Just arrived at the river and see villain xd, which I'm assuming will be a river x raise. One of the hands I was thinking was something like 8xss or Qxss would play this way. If the sizing tell is legit, he really doesn't have a lot of Ax that calls a 3b. Suited connectors, yes. I'll see a lot of players do this with J8s, T8s, 89s, 78s, 68s. And no suited A that runs into two pair is xraising this board.
I'm never betting this river with the amount already in the pot with that weird action. Only a better hand is calling and if I face a raise I'm just crossing my fingers. IMO I'm rarely missing much value here vs the majority of players.
even if villain is capable of check-raise bluffing the river here, 99% of opponents can't find enough bluffs to balance out their value hands. their range is very value-heavy so we can overfold significantly
Against someone I've seen play for 1.5 hours in my life, I check behind. Against someone I know well who is a rock, I might bet and fold with confidence. Against someone I know well who is a checkraise bluffer, I check behind, because they know what hands I can be blown off of for what price. While hero was figuring out (maybe correctly, maybe not) that he knew what each $5 increment of opening raise meant from villain, villain figured out that hero could be relied upon to bet a river when checked to, whether for value or as a bluff.
Yea, but what do you get called by on the river with a flush and straight possible on the board that doesn't beat you? I don't really agree with the bet on the river. It always seems like people are betting fast or trapping at lower stakes
One of the worse leaks a decent ayer has at lower stakes is being unable to accept that bad players get lucky. But they do. And they tell you very clearly.
Sounds like an insta-fold on the river. Hero bet small-ish on all streets. That screams 'value' since he's not really making the odds terrible for villain to continue with any of his holdings or getting more premium hands to make a difficult decision for a laydown. Villain is not going to go into the river with a check- raise bluff against that kind of strength. He's holding a set of 8s or better. Better to bet half pot on flop. Bet turn big (pot size). Check behind on river. Two pair (and not even top two) is nice but getting 3 streets of value out of them (plus a check raise river) seems super rare. Particularly on a board that has flush AND staight potential.
A. Limpers and then open to 20, 65 is too small. He’s going to call 100% B. Over fold at this level. Even if you are right once. You will save a bundle in the long run
From my perspective the River bet is the big issue here. If you are betting 1/3 ish pot and folding to a barely bigger than min click back, you are too thin in my mind. Ax one spade(which is an enormous number of combos), Qx one spade and even some 8x hands with straight draws on the turn can all check raise bluff like this, and his whole check raise value range beats you, so you’re targeting pretty much exactly worse Ax 2 pairs, KQ and maybe from your pre flip tell Q8. Not enough in my mind. Interested to see what others think about this reasoning. Cheers
Nice analysis. Only problem I see with this analysis is that most of the time a bluff will check-raise big and when they actually want a call they will check-raise minimum like how the villain did here. So the river play ends up being pretty transparent anyway, based on the line that villain took.
Like the background. I'm 4:15 in, I don't know how many live players I know are auto calling QJ or some queen for a large flop bet in a 3 bet pot on an ace high board, rainbow no less. Gonna disagree and think high percent of those just fold. I like 1/3 or 1/4 size actually.
Stopped at 12:30. Much of how I would proceed depends on if I'm going to be playing against that person in the future. In general, I don't fold to small bets against players I'm going to play against again, because it gives them a cheap way to bluff. We used to call those Post Oak Bluffs. Against someone I'm not going to play against again, this is a fold, because AQ is almost never good here. This seems to be QsJs or JsTs, both of which will take this line.
It is a strange position to be in, but he didn't have to be in it. That's why you play in position, and he threw away that advantage. Terrible check by his opponent on the river, but it was a worse bet. He needs to check there, 100%. He also should have bet pot on the turn, or even slightly over, to take away drawing odds. The guy can still call, and hit his flush, but if he keeps playing that way, you will get his money eventually........ He even put him on the right range on one preflop bet, impressive. I had him on TJsp, 8T plays exactly the same, pair & gutty, or double gutty, either gets him to turn, then flush & pair, gutty, or flush and double gutter, so it plays the same, and he knew what he had, why didn't he pick up on a possible flush draw?? Doesn't matter, there are lots of draws, bet big, end it or make it expensive to get in front of your premium hand. He gave it away, then paid him for taking it......
i called T9ss. to me it just had to be some kind of monster draw hand like that for him to check EVERY street, call every street, and then check raise at the end. But im also bad at poker so maybe the logic isn’t sound 😅
Villain had been running pure. So basically he always shows winners because he keeps getting there. So, why exactly would the hero think this time he doesn’t have it? The villain basically hasn’t shown river bluffs. Besides if he wanted to bluff the river, it’s much more likely he would lead for a healthy size. If he is running pure then naturally he is going to continue riding his luck and chasing draws. Size up on flops and turns if he wants to chase draws and be prepared to check back when a back door draw shows up.
I am very happy you switched to the black background and it looks like you evened out the space between those panels in the background which lowers my OCD anxiety for stuff like that :) Love the content.
Daniel Negreanu just had a "Limpin is pimpin" video on a few days ago from his High Roller Bowl that he won. You might explain how poker becomes a different universe in high stakes, where the known rules of poker physics don't apply?
Must watch that 😂.Poker advice seems to go in cycles,limping might be the next big thing as 3 betting any K hand was a few years back or “only raise or fold when under 20bb” “never call in the bb when short” I suppose they have to keep changing advice to spice things up a bit . Range betting might be old hat soon
If you hate flopping top two then you’re doing something wrong man. Just feels like you’re outdrawn a lot cause maybe your betting a size in spots that only draws and very strong hands are calling. And then you’re not folding when everything he has gets there and he raises you. Fold and live to fold another day. Reduce your losses by 66% on a hand with a single river pot sized fold
Its clear that these days players at the lower level are doing a bit more bluffing on rivers. For a long time you could just fold to any river aggression.. but for a “special” player that fits the calling station/loose aggressive profile, I think you should still be doing just that, overfolding especially river check raises.. now if he was a reg there would be more of a decision
Very unusual for this to be a bluff, for normal player But the sizing is just so small that he is making a mistake with this small ch raise size, I think hero should pay off. But not against a much larger raise
Is a small river bet IP even a thing here? Solver i suspect would say no, though it is a reasonable play live where players never check-raise bluff. But that is generally on dry boards with a blank river. - i think Turn if i was villain im check raising my JT (maybe without a spade) and my spade draws. Then i can rip it on almost all rivers and make IPs life miserable.
Don't know the result, but this is never KQ. Villain would have to be such a donk. This is usually a backdoor flush and once in a great while Qs turned into a bluff.
You guys are making a common mistake that because something is common it’s the rule. When I’m playing live against players I think have an ok understanding of the game, I mix up my play buy raising my really premium that aren’t vulnerable, like kings, aces, and Aks, also a5/a4s, to just 2.5 from middle position and especially if there are limpers. I specifically will do this if I have thinking players to my left who are looking for opportunities to squeeze. And since the standard thinking for most conscious players is that you HAVE to raise your premium hands to 2.5-3x plus a bb for every limp so as to reduce the call value for future players, it gives me a great opportunity to raise light, call (and the strength of my hand will be hidden) or 4 bet the squeeze. With a call or 4 bet I’m still getting the money in the pot. You have to be careful to always do one thing or another. And when something like squeeze plays become predictable, take the opportunity to be unpredictable
The drop is huge in CA. To me you need to play 5/10 or bigger. The other thing I don’t like about playing in CA (although I have played at many places there) is the max buy ins are too low. 600 max buy in for 5/5 and 800 for 5/5/10 is super low. Texas 1/3 is bigger (1k max buy in, although every game is bigger there). When I played in NY underground clubs, the rake was big (10%, usually capped at 6 or 7) but the games were beatable and you got a lot for your rake. I recently played in a 10/25/50 PLO underground game with a 10% up to 50 a hand rake (basically 50 dollars a hand). The game isn’t easy and there was about 100k on the table. You could eat anything you want and free liquor but the game wasn’t good enough to go back for that high a rake.
I think J10 is very likely. Its not a premium so it fits in the range the caller stated at the beginning. Its double gutted on the flop. Hits on the turn and he patiently waited for "hero" to bet. I got to the end. 8/10 is in the same range as J/10 Hero says hes "running pure " but admits he hasn't always gone to showdown. "clicking buttons" sounds like sour grapes to me. The guy was winning all night and he won another one.
This is an example of betting not because you have the best hand but because you wanted to have the best hand...the bet was dumb, the call of raise was worse.
Yup the caller / hero was obviously too light on his betting allowing the villain to hang & finally win the massive pot. By knowing you hit top two pair, you need to bet large enough to show your seriousness to maintain control of the hand. You said ‘you put him on a mediocre hand’. The flop bet was scaled down from $65 preflop to $45. Why??? Absolutely bet that $100 & if he is happy to call with his pair of 8s… great! Now your pot is $330ish then with the K on the turn and his check you really need to put the heater on by betting the pot. Now he has a decision to make. Yea … you played it soft & lost a lot
the question I would ask is "Can other guy get here with Straight or Flushes?" The obvious answer is yes, and I would have saved a few by checking River, At these stakes getting a call on worse is nearly impossible. The only hands that call and don't raise are worse two pair or the exact same two pair. For the record, I hate Two Pair. I play them, but hate them. This hand is a great example of why.
I miss the listed hand history, wherein I could see the entire hand action at a glance from preflop on so I could be reminded of what transpired from the beginning.
That’s never been apart of these videos. I use a note pad on the live streams. U can also always rewind the videos as well and I try to repeat the action as much as possible.
@@CrushlivePoker as I recall, all action was listed on your right hand side. This new format is more aesthetically appealing, but as you recommend, requires one to go back and review the footage. Just some viewer insight for your consideration. 😉
I went back to a few of your videos from 2 years ago and I guess you're right, the full history is not posted so I stand corrected. I could have sworn it was your channel that had that format. 😔
@@Williy_Nilly maybe you were confusing the look from when we do it live? Check out this video.. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zS4nbUQ3mr4.html
Ah The classic check-minraise of death, somehow the villains always have it in the most unlikely spots, especially when you're at the top of your range and you just can't put them on a hand. The question then becomes exactly what do they think is the nuts? Would they do this with the worst two pair? That's how I always end up paying these spots off. Do I ever think I'm good here? No. Am I paying off a min raise Just to prove how bad I run? Obviously
Now I know I should have jammed on a cash game player when he was reraising my open raises in a tournament.... certain cash game players think it's the same game in a tourney. Next time....
Even given the pot odds on the river, hero is arguably at the stone bottom of their range with the exception of maybe JJ or TT with a spade that are turned into bluffs (which are a better call vs a river raise then AQ). Even against a capable opponent this should be a pure fold
