Crawler Canyon Presents: Fusion vs. Fusion (SE 1800kV & SE 1200kV) 

Figuring out the algorithm is akin to trying to figure out how memes work-- the guy that does it will make billions. I keep going at it "The Neistat Way," where he said that the algorithm just wants to be fed, it doesn't care about it's being fed. So I just keep putting out videos and hoping something catches.

@@CrawlerCanyon you keep making and I’ll keep watching. More power to you sir.

Hope it catches more. I like your content and appreciate your effort;) Go ahed as you wish not others^^@@CrawlerCanyon

Because the videos are waaayyyyyy too long. Great content but very few people have the attention span for 30-1hr long videos. Unless it’s super entertaining. Also from what I understand, the algorithm doesn’t like super long videos

Because RU-vid algorithm sucks and this great content creator can may be have conclusion and summary a bit in the starting and end to sum up amd help understand the main point in short for impatient viewers

I don't think there's an option out there that will beat the 1200 SE at 70 bucks. Nothing even comes close. Combine that with simple and clean install, and that thing is an unbelievable bargain. It simply has no competition.

Honestly, before today I thought the same thing-- just gear down. The lower kV SE is soooooo much better to wheel on a straight axle compared to the 1800. It feels like something completely different.

That might be the furthest I've gotten into "there's no way out of this" and then saved it.

I think on an 18 the 1200 would be a bit too slow, and as the 1800 is a little too fast for my purposes, I would have to say the 1800. I mean, what I want to say is get the 1200 and gear up because pinions are cheap and the 1200 gets you more gearing flexibility with the XF. Mind you, this is all based on 3S use-- for 2S, the 1800 all the way

@@CrawlerCanyon you’re a gentleman and a scholar. What pinion would you recommend for my purposes with the 1200kv? If I can ever find one in stock lol.

@@baumannj724 I have no complaints about the 24T I have in mine. I know a 24 sounds bonkers, but because of the 2:1 intermediate gear, it's the equivalent of running a 12T.

The Bushido might be the one of the worst at this, with equal-length front and rear links-- between full droop and full compression the wheelbase changes nearly half an inch.

The "Castle whine" combined with an obvious lack of any technology resembling FOC sees two full Castle setups sitting in the spares bin, while I instead choose to run 1080s in those rigs. When a $40 brushed speed control and $30 motor has more initial smoothness and better trigger feel than a $200 brushless combo, let's just say someone is doing something wrong. I just switched Yella over to 4S, so he's running a 3530 1450kv Team Brood Riot, and it's outstanding. Super low speed control, but absolutely ferocious wheelspeed. I mean, Zoidberg runs 4S into a 3548 760kv, and he's portal'd-- so Yella is what, 3 times as fast WOT?

@@CrawlerCanyon My NWSD chassis Sendero is running the AG ninja with an 1800kv RevolverV3. 😅 Some guys at the local comps run some BEANS in their rigs as mine never seemed too fast😂

@@Andy_Yates I don't think I've ever seen a pic of a comp rig with anything "slower" than a 2200 in it. Meanwhile, I'm over here with my spiciest outrunner clocking in at 1650.

And it can't be an IP thing, as apparently everybody rips off everybody nowadays. Spektrum has a rebadge of the Pro, but literally no one ever talks about it. I imagine Horizon chopping off about a third of the programming options has something to do with it. Castle would make one and figure out how to make it noisy.

I installed the spectrum in my twin hammer. It was the only one that would fit. Shorter length.

@@mclarenf115 The 1200/1800 SE, the Fusion Pro, and the Firma 2-in-1s are all the same length, 58mm. The older, what I call "legacy" Fusions were longer by about 6mm.

I have the stand up shock kit from shapeways. So the servo location limits the size of the motor. With the 2speed the 1400kv works well. Plenty of bottom end I do have the fusion se going in on my fake honcho (foncho).

@@CrawlerCanyon how can I send you a picture of my set up

Yes, quite a few of them. I don't have an exact count, but Fusion SEs are powering probably around 1/3rd of the whole fleet.

100% agree. Whatever wizardry composes FOC, it's the real deal. But at 70-ish bucks, nothing can touch the SE 1200.

True. But the whole thing arose because an 18T is the smalllest pinion that will fit (though it acts like a 9T, thanks to the 2:1 intermediate gear) and that only brings the FDR (ignoring UD) to 48.6:1. An 1800 needs more reduction. So the 24T (basically a 12 in terms of FDR) is the little bit of gear down I was looking for but can't get with the 1800. It's still a really "fast" final drive at around 36:1. Fitting a 27T would take the FDR to about 32.5:1, which is getting into the territory of 2nd gear in a two-speed.

The beauty of a 1200 + 1800 costing about the same as a Pro = might as well get both

How did it work out for you

​@CrawlerCanyon just told the wife that and she rolled her eyes and walked away! Hahahaha

And a whole array of more Hobbywing, I suppose. Maybe I can find a donut sticker to symbolize the hair buns?

@@CrawlerCanyon You have a Cricut, what's stopping you?

I can't believe that side dropped down.

BACK IN MY DAY, Black Friday (almost) meant something. Now the sales start the day after Halloween, and we get "deals," not DEALS. I want that old-timey "$500 TV for $99" stuff.

You absolutely did.

One of the six people! Brad Neely is a genius.

You are correct. Though if you wanted SUPER slow, you could put in the parts for a 2-speed and mount the 1200, which would make 1st gear like... 2mph, and second gear around... 4mph.

I it's a 22T, but something in my brain is saying it might be a 24T. Twenty two sounds... more right? You shouldn't have any issue with CMS, 60kg should be plenty. I agree that 3-link looks better, but the cheat code that is BOSOA is hard to resist.

@@CrawlerCanyon I’ve got a 24t and 23t as starting points, I know the odd number won’t be to your liking though 😂

As you went with a 1200, I'm assuming you have a straight axle-- you'll be fine on the stock 13T, but if you want a little more trailing speed, you can easily go up a few teeth. On my Enduro SE, I went up from the stock 18T (48P) to a 22T. I would think a 15 or 16 would be perfect for a mix of rocks/trails.

@@CrawlerCanyon sweet. I just watched the Phoenix vs Phoenix video you did and it was very entertaining. Thanks for responding

I have a set of the 1.9s on my Defender. I think that 4.35" OD is just about perfect for the crazy high weight of the TRX-4 Defender, and wish more companies would make tires in that fall into that "no man's land" sizing between Class 1 and Class 2-- so in the 4.3-4.5" range. Portal rigs don't need 4.75s, they get the ground clearance from you know... the portals. Now that I think about it, I think I'm running mostly tires in that 4.65" size range.

@@CrawlerCanyon I totally understand, I love a 1.9 in a 4.50" OD myself and that size looks good but most importantly works good where we go Trail Riding. With the mixture of sand, rocks, roots, clay, mud and water crossings. I also like the 4.35" like you're talking about. That Super Swamper Thornbird looks sooooo scale and good on the rigs I have seen around here. I'm in North Carolina by the way, while we have plenty of rocks to crawl we have a bunch of other obstacles to challenge a rig. Love your videos and how Informative they are, thank you! 🤠👍🏼

@@adamrodgers2377 That Thornbird (which I had never heard of until about 3 minutes ago) just jumped on to my list of "tires I absolutely need to try in the future."

@@CrawlerCanyon awesome 👍🏼 I have 3 friends running them and they like them for Tail Running. They do decent on the rocks around here, not perfect but decent. They do pull good in sand and are surprisingly good in the mud. I plan on getting a set for my Daughters SCX10 G6 Jeep Rubicon.

I would have to say the 1200 for sure, as the Night crawler doesn't actually have a gearbox-- pinion, intermediate gear, spur, then straight to the axles. The pre-worm reduction is like 1.67:1, which is REAL tall for a crawler.

Amain had them in stock a few days ago, the 1200kv is 70 bucks-- right about a pricepoint of a medium-grade brushed setup. I only have a few brushed rigs left, and those motors are uh... expensive.

@@CrawlerCanyon I have a Capra and Phoenix that I'm willing to upgrade (my other rigs being a Gen7 and a Ridgerock). So I'll take your recommendation and choose the 1800 for the portal axled rigs.

Stealth X comes geared 18/87 (4.83:1) while the XF has a 50T spur and 18T pinion, has a reduction gear in between-- which I had thought this whole time was 2:1, but I finally sat down and counted the teeth to find out it's 28/45, which is 1.6:1. So 18T divided by 1.6 is 11.25, put that into 50 for a 4.44:1 spur-to-pinion ratio. All the gears inside are the same, so the XF is actually geared a little faster than the X-- I thought it was the other way around. I've been running a 22T (the equivalent of a 13.75T pinion) since the SE 1200 went in and the speed feels perfect. So on an X you'll probably want to go up a few teeth on the pinion or down on the spur. Or both. I love a nice even ratio, so I'd be throwing 21/84 on there. Could be perception, but I feel like "perfect" ratios are quieter.

Thanks, I will try the 84/21 combo 👍

Just to feedback that 21/84 combo you recommended with the 1200kv SE is pretty much spot on. Awesome slow crawl and just punchy enough too.

Just recalibrate. I never even disconnect anything from the motor. Ever. Long hold at startup to enter calibration, go through the process as normal.

@@CrawlerCanyon So unplugging didn't save me? I did it all perfect the first time. And everything I read says the motor shouldn't have any load on it during that process.

@@JP-qq2kn well, they mean "load," as in LOAD. Like, don't calibrate it with the rig sitting on a rock at a 45º angle. On a table or workbench (or supported on a yoga block/stand/etc) there should be no physical load on the motor. It's worked for me with the dozen+ Fusions I have.

@@CrawlerCanyon Enough said. I'll do that. Thank you!

Fitted with a 24T pinion the FDR is 50:1. I say roughly because I use the "middle number" between the front and rear ratios, ignoring the UD gears. Fitted with an 18T pinion the FDR is again, roughly 68:1. The problem I see you having is that the 1800 is pretty much perfect for a TRX-4, as you can gear it easily for the 2-speed or the single speed gearbox. But most of the gear reduction in a TRX-4 takes place in the portals-- take the portals away and the low gear in the two speed basically becomes the high gear, and high gear becomes LUDICROUS SPEED. I have a TRX-4 2-speed paired to AR45 straights, and on 900Kv second gear is "let's go jump over the creek" fast.

@@CrawlerCanyon my other idea is a planetary reducer and a short outrunner. But you lose the waterproofing.

@@black99rt I think outrunners will handle water... okay-ish, they just don't like stuff IN that water. The Fusion is the go-everywhere-do-everything powerplant, IMO. I definitely think differently when wheeling (most) rigs that are outrunner equipped.

They also had a 1.9 version

Not my experience with FOC. With a brushed setup? Maybe. With an outrunner? Absolutely not. Further, with the intermediate gear in the Stealth XF, running a 24T pinion is basically the same as running say 18/56 on a VFD (the hat gear turns a 24T into a 15T, effectively.) Factor in that with the smallest pinion that fits being an 18T, the 1800kv is too fast (for Class 2/3, at least.)

No I mean who's actually got a "designed" RTR tire, like the Canyon Trail, which AFAIK has no 1:1 equivalent. Anything Nitto, General, Falken, BFG, etc. are all scale-versions of 1:1 tires. I couldn't think of anything other than the CT and the Axial Ripsaw. There is an ATV/UTV tire called the Rip Saw, but it certainly appears to be of no relation. Not surprising about ol' PL, as Horizon owns them and AKA Tires as well. The 800lb Horizon gorilla.

@@CrawlerCanyon why, that gorilla is shaped just like a pyramid scheme. Funny.

Oh, more. The Pro is smoother, but with like double the available wheelspeed. The Pro is the next level, with the price to match.

I swear I mentioned Ripsaw-- I have a set of ancient 1.9s on a Defender. I did think of another non-scale RTR tire, the Vanquish VXT. It's pretty terrible, but it exists.

@@CrawlerCanyon I did a trade for a 79 bronco trx4.so I modded the canyon trails on two stage with amazon bead locks.40wt shock oil and it’s a beast.stock motor so far with a 1080.it will can creep.even with a stick tx.I’m doing a cheaper build.I blew the wad on my other 79 bronco.that one is a tank.goes over anything.the info you give in your videos is awesome.thank you.your my number one channel to watch.👍

You basically just gear it up to the speed you want. I tend to use 1200s on rigs that don't have nearly enough gear reduction from the factory, so I'm trying to slow them down. Any of the Carisma ATT gearbox fitted rigs are dummy fast, so the 1200 makes them manageable. I run a 1200 in my Enduro SE (Stealth XF) with a 24T pinion-- but with the reduction from the intermediate gear, it's the same ratio as running a 15T. Fast enough, still has plenty of torque.

I just did mine, it's still pretty quick. Only used the stock pinion gear tho.

@@JP-qq2kn I have a 1200 SE in my Atlas, I have gone down a tooth or two. I seem to recall not liking the OE pinion for some reason.

@@CrawlerCanyon it does seem a bit coggy at very low speed.. I was kinda hoping for slower.

@@JP-qq2kn You should have absolutely zero cogging or hesitation. I can creep mine at maybe 5rpm at the wheel.

I have to go back and rewatch, because I think the words in my head and the words that came out of my mouth might not match-- I was trying to figure out if there are any OE/RTR crawler tires based on 1:1 tires other than the Ripsaw and the Canyon Trail. I guess i should better specify "big brand," because the tires that come on MST, Carisma, etc are all pretty much just generic, unlicensed tires. Oh! Vanquish VXT! There's a third.

18 is the smallest pinion that will fit in an XF gearbox, so any low speed advantage given to the 1200 SE is due to the mechanical limitations of the gearbox. The 1200 is not always better, because at a certain point you will have geared up to the point where the motor has lost too much mechanical advantage. The XF with a 24T pinion and 1200 SE is just how I want it- the right amount of wheelspeed without loss of torque. So the 1800, being incapable of gearing lower, is not as good a choice as the 1200. For reference, the XF gearbox has an intermediate gear with a 1.6:1 ratio, so the 1800 and 1200 motors were effectively running 11 and 15 tooth pinions respectively.

While the Ripsaw might be one of the world's most perfect portal tires, it is ultimately held back by it's greatest strength: being 4.3" tall. I'll tell you the same thing I yell at the clouds: Mfrs. should stop with the making 47 different tread patterns, and make more options of tires that WORK. Ripsaws OWN. Same with Tusks. Give us 4.19", 4.35", 4.65", and 5.25" versions of each. I'd buy 'em all.

Today's episode (1/1/24) will give you an idea-- TRX standard gearbox (not two-speed) with portals on a Fusion SE 1200 tops out at 2.5mph. You can't really even bump with it. That's why I always say 1200 for straights, 1800 for portals.

Thanks for the quick reply.. Another question, If I got the 1800, do I also need to buy the card for programming it..

@@vansantsam you can do programming via lashing light and button presses, but it's really worth it to just buy a card. They're ~10 bucks, and the one card will program everything Hobbywing that we would use: Fusion SE/Pro, 1080s, etc.

I use the Fusion SE 1200KV in a 2-gear Absima Sherpa (Yikong YK4102) and it is quite good for me using the stock pinion gear. The Fusion SE 1800KV fires up my Axial SCX10 DIY 6x6 & for me it's really fast enough. Now I'm thinking about which fusion will be the best for my kinda heavy TRX-4 Defender. I don't want to build a racer, so the decision might be between the 1200KV or the 1800KV, the Pro with 2300KV should be a little too fast, I guess. But I remember there was a comparison made by a German rc enthusiast on the internet stating the 2300KV is as fast as the 550 Titan stock motor. Hard to believe - what are your thoughts?

@@PzKdt76 the 2300 will easily be as fast as the stock Titan, if not faster. That's the beauty of the Pro-- superb low-end control, and all the wheelspeed you could ever want.

I’m running the 1200 with a 24T- on an XF. That’s roughly the equivalent of 18/87 gearing on the regular X. You were WAY overgeared.

​@@CrawlerCanyonMade the same mistake and put the 24t pinion into the Stealth X. But XF in the video has a different ratio than the Stealth X. With a stock 18T pinion: The stealth XF has the 64,4 gear ratio (no overdrive). The Stealth X has 47,1 ratio front and 49,8 rear (stock overdrive). If you put the 24T pinion into the XF, the ratio is 48,3 and you are on similar ratio as stock Stealth X. If you put the 24T pinion into the X, as I did, the ratio is ca 35. This is similar to for example the TRX4 Sport stock ratio (36,25). So what I have to do now... Put back the 18T, get the final gear around 48 and use 3S instead of 2S sounds better to me, than buy the Fusion 1800 instead of 1200...

1800 for portals, 1200 for straight axles.

@@CrawlerCanyon thank you very much for your answer. 🙏🏻

I believe at time of filming I had already put the Stealth X gears in the XF, so it's running the OE "option" gearing of 11% rear UD. No aftermarket gears.

@Crawler Canyon what gearing do you prefer in the Enduro? Thinking of picking up a Builder Kit 2, vs any of the rtr settups.

I will no longer participate in Redcat's Festival of False Economy. I also imagine that the uncorrectable suspension issues of previous generations still linger on, as the Gen9 features that "specially designed Panhard bar," aka a bent one, which means they never designed the front end correctly in the first place. Everything I've touched Redcat has felt substandard, but that was okay, because they were tricking us into purchasing with crazy low entry prices. It takes more than the purchase price of a Redcat to be dropped into a Redcat just to make it properly functional. To make it good? No idea. I won't bear the burden of proof for future Redcat-- no one is going to convince me otherwise (I got tricked into buying a Wendigo by recommendations from reputable crawler channels) and I am absolutely not going to throw money away trying to find out myself. I bet every crawler channel out there has some degree of rave review of the Gen9. The same channels that raved about the Gen8 and the Wendigo. I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.

@CrawlerCanyon I completely understand. . . I've actually had decent time with everest10 to Gen8. Always made & was able to make some adjustments a little fabricating, & been quite proformable. 😉... I do understand where you are coming from as well. Love the work you have been doing this last year. Great work. Keep it up, please, thank you!

Of course I changed the gearing! You can't drop kV by a third and run the same gearing, unless you enjoy topping out at 2mph. No one, and by that I mean NO ONE changes the power system and doesn't also change the gearing to accommodate. If that were the case, there would be a lot of TRX-4 Sports out there doing 20mph. I can put the whole video in a TL;DW format if you'd like: 1200 for straights, 1800 for portals. Gear to your liking. Done.

@@CrawlerCanyon I understand what u are doing I didn't mean to offend you but I think you're missing my point I mean it would have been nice to say , heres what it does with the 1200 and heres what it does with the 1800 same gearing and then one could gear accdordly, im building a comp crawler and was planning on a fusion wasn't sure what kv to go with then again I might go with an out runner

@@sammiller8497 yeah, don't put a Fusion in a comp crawler. It's too long, it's too big, it's too heavy. Odds are it won't even fit.

I thought the exact same thing prior to testing. But here we are. White papers are great, but I'll take empirical evidence every time.

You may well be in the wrong place.

I use Radiolink RC4GS for about half of the fleet. The rest are on few RC6GS, a handful of FlySky GT5s, and a couple of Airtronics MX-3X and MT-4.