There’s absolutely nothing wrong, or unusual, about a journalist taking a point of view. They’re not judges, who have to be “fair to everybody”. Besides, these events are true, as are the later wars of religion after the Reformation, and writers have taken many viewpoints on those. I hate it when people make blanket statements about how religion is always evil, or always good, religions and peoples use of them are just as complex as any other aspect of humanity.
There's something inherently problematic with a religion that teaches that the material world is doomed to destruction any day now and the only solution is to follow that religion or else they will be destroyed and/or tortured by the god of that religion. It reduces the world into a place where the faithful are to wipe their feet on their way to the afterlife. A place that it is okay toi allow to fall into disrepair, to treat it however they'd like because their god is going to come back and magically solve ALL the world's problems after destroying the place. This is a core concept of Christianity. Not all religions are created equal. Some are just legitimately garbage on the face of it.
@@jacksonfurlong3757 You are more describing Gnostic religions than Christianity here, in Christianity the world is reborn and the evil within it is purged.
It's fascinating that when Christianity came into this world Every great civilisation destroyed Including mayans, ancient Greeks, romans, vikings Because they all were converted in Christians Pagan temples were destroyed
LOL, Christian europeans fought two world wars just to destroy each other. So did egyptians who declared wars on other people just to make them slaves. So did the mayans and aztecs etc. Chinese used to keep on fight for centuries until whole cities were abandoned and depopulated. Fighting is a natural for civilizations. Do you think there was a place were one power didn't try to dominate another power for one reason or another by one method or another? So saying that it was Christianity that made europeans to invade other people then you need to get a history lesson. Fighting and domination was rule not an exception in pre-modern world. You can present a case for different historical states being tolerant to non-state religions by different degrees, but fighting and domination is common for all historic states.
But also made many empires that stood the test of time and against other rivaling kingdoms. The most popular and flourishing being the Byzantine Empire of the East until the conquest by the Ottomans.
2 minutes silence for those who are still in denial mode. Calling her biased. Atrocities of Christian missionaries in the name of the "only God", are rampant in India even today. Can totally relate to what she says.
The people calling her Biased aren't just Christians but actual academics. The archeological record doesn't support a primarily fear induced conversion that she claims, neither does it support destruction of most temples/shrines while they were in use. Over 90% of the shrines we have discovered in Europe were abandoned not destroyed.
Hinduism is a vile religion but I do agree with what you're saying. The way Christian missionaries trick the masses is still very much the same today as it was in the mediveal ages.
@@ikengaspirit3063 Proof ? State your sources Professor Edith Hall, a professor of Classics at King's College London, described the work as "Engaging and erudite... offer[ing[ both a compelling argument and a wonderful eye for vivid detail" and "a triumph" in an interview with Nixey to promote the book. Professor Tim Whitmarsh of Cambridge University described it as "a finely crafted, invigorating polemic against the resilient popular myth that presents the Christianisation of Rome as the triumph of a kinder, gentler politics. On those terms, it succeeds brilliantly".
as a caucasian person who lives amongst christians, the thought of fanatical zealots knocking down my door, destroying my statues of vishnu, is indeed a thought that crosses my mind not unregularly..
Wonder why they kept monotheists oppressed. Just like the Japanese they knew their strength was in martyrdom so you either blacken that eye or totally avoid.
@@solidus1995 agreed cults were allowed in the roman empire because everyone was allowed different ways of worshipping but the monotheistic religions wanted dominance from the beginning and subverted the entire empire to their will.
The actual amazing and demoralising fact is that the early christian hooligans have destroyed a diverse cultural landscape that has until today still not been rebuilt.
If we really have lost all but 1% of Latin writings and 2% of Greek writings, I wonder what culture would look TODAY if those writings were not lost. What if at least HALF of classical writings survived? How might that have affected the development of culture and intellectual life? One can only wonder now
Carl Sagan had said that if they were allowed to survive instead of being destroyed today we would be traveling to distant stars with classical Greek named spaceships…
This was a good video. I definitely learned some good stuff. I was very surprised of the ancient history documents they destroyed or was lost. Funny thing is when I was child, I asked people at church all sorts of stuff and they would reply "The devil just put there to tempt you." They said a lot of stuff like that. I didn't question it until I got to college and I realize that I was stupid for accepting those answers as true. Ugh its hard to get past religious biased when talking to people about religion
You weren't stupid since you were a child when you believed in religious hogwash. Had you continued to believe it even when your college education gave you an opportunity to see through the junk misguided adults indoctrinated you with as a child, well....
The early Christian fathers recognized the value of classical literature and works of art but they wanted to co-opt it. So there is the famous "forgery" by Pseudo Dionysius written in the third century but was treated as if written by a disciple of Paul. Also, consider all the statues and ornate paints from the early church. They didn't really want to erase the works of antiquity as much as claim it as their own.
For those reasons Christians were more tolerant, even appreciative of some pagan works of philosophy and literature than others. Plato had a better chance of escaping Christian disdain than an atomist or materialist philosopher. And even classical writers whom Christian values as useful, were valued only because they were useful rather than for their intrinsic value.
@@SagesseNoir well, duh. So called value for intrinsic value isn't really something that I have seen ever as the institutional reason anything is valued. Things are valued for their ability to do stuff in relation to other things.
@@ikengaspirit3063 In classical culture there was an understanding of intrinsic values, especially among Greek thinkers. When Aristotle speaks of the "good" he speaks of goods that are purely instrumental, things good only for what we can get by means of them. There are goods valuable partly for their own sake, and partly as a means to something else. And there are goods which are valuable for their own sake only. With the rise of Christian dominance, a classical work of philosophy, art or literature can be valuable only if they can be used to advance the Christian religion. Classical works that do not serve that purpose are disdained, sometimes banned or burned. So, the narrow view that classical works are valued only for their utility diminishes the culture, and diminishes freedom. In her book, Nixey admits that some strands of classical philosophy were preserved in the hands of Christian philosophers, but it's not the same. Something has been lost. For now on philosophical ideas are compelled to agree with pre-ordained doctrines of the Church. But that means that FREE philosophy, free thinking (without which you don't have genuine philosophy) is over. Philosophical and artistic work are no longer seen as having intrinsic value, but is valuable only to the extent the it serves the interests of the Church.
@@SagesseNoir you are correct. However, the book should have at least mentioned one para or at least few sentences on Boethius for preserving the works of Plato and Aristotle, and writing 'the consolation of philosophy' inspired by Cicero, Seneca, Porphyry, Plotinus, Proclus and even St Augustine. Speaking of St Augustine, the book only depicts St Augustine's statements against pagan worship, but the upheaval and upliftment of classical philosophy and knowledge by making these ideas accommodate the Christian scriptures, doesn't get a mention.
I read the book. It was a real eye opener! Compliments Catherine to this courageous new angle on history. I'm working on countering violent extremism and the parallels with today's extremists were daunting.
We're facing this in the USA nowadays. Books are being banned by LAW in many states of the United States. Bans imposed on schools and public libraries. There have been some book sporadic burnings. And this destructiveness is largely fueled by politics largely saturated with Christian Right.
Abrahamic monotheism and their civilization worldview creator is distanced from creation, killed off Greek classical civilization world of Plato , Socrates and the deities , only India left holding out admirably against Abrahamic proselytism .Greek Roman pagans & Indians creator and creation are one in the same , no God head above . God force is what we experience in and around us in the present.
Amazing book!!! I'm just hoping as more information comes out he does a follow up book for the rest of the world with higher resolution; in fact, it's probably the best book I've ever read, completely paradigm shifting!
I haven’t read this book but David Reich is not always an unbiased source so make sure to check him with other reliable sources. This historical period has been well-studied and documented so there’s a lot of good information out there.
I'm not sure why people are recommending historians for genetics. Apart from the unabashed political correctness around "Ancient North Indians" I thought it was an interesting journey through his and other work on ancient DNA. When coupled with linguistics it shows a fascinating and clear counterpoint to the various national and regional biases that have plagued history.
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Literally every empire did this. It was done for the purpose of establishing the ruling culture over the dominated ones and try to force a kind of assimilation. I think the Romans where the first to begin allowing freedom of religion(correct me if I'm wrong) as long as you paid your taxes. All they cared about was money lol.
@@holyhandgrenades5529 If my memory serves me correctly, the Achaemenids were the first ones to allow religious liberty, and all they really wanted was the tax money. All in all, the emperor was the king of kings, which meant that the conquered states retained some degree of autonomy.
Sje actually tried to say it wasnt justified actions as if it ever is . Was flyd riots justifiably buring cirtys? She said the Christian persecution wasn't significant? That's assuming she knew how many was hiding underneath Rome to antolian caves. Clearly it was anyone who was willing to stand in the open or refused to perform rituals to enter the markets . I think she is making a poor assements woth that point . It was very significant per capita for anyone willing to leave proof they followed the faith it had to be terrible pent up anger. Its like saying usa doesn't have any illegal migrants crossing the border because its not being documented.
Multi complex history and sickness of humanity is repeated over and 9ver its never justifiable hysteria to destroy but we cant know that it wasn't pagan converts angry that they was suckered into paganism . I could see acedmia snapping over some physics like learning universe is isotropic and everything is as worthy as alchemy or astrology and in a fevered rage burn library's with Dr suez lol
@@holyhandgrenades5529 I think nowadays we really misunderstood what does it mean "freedom of religion". It sounds like allowing people to believe what they want, but it's not only that. We act based on our belief (except flat-earths that use cells phones, calendars, and take planes). If my religion is to say, beat my wife because the spaghetti monster says men are above women, well, good luck with freedom of religion in America. If another religion says there is no moral limit and the powerful can makes its own rules because... it has the power, then, I dare to say let's say all religions are the same, just be open and tolerant. All societies have freedom of religion until there is a clash between the cultures.
Another excellent post! Thank you for hosting Catherine Nixey and exploring this difficult topic. I’ve studied & support her perspective but definitely getting her book anyway. Have a good Sunday ☘️🌷🌸!!
I had never heard of her, such a wonderful and interesting insight, I’ve never looked into this time period spoken of, what a fantastic rabbit hole to go down!
"The Darkening Age" is up there with "The Myth of Andalusian Paradise" in it's lack of sources and the fact that actual historians think they're silly.
You can't really prove who was more moral because all of those groups are made up of different people. Pagans and Christians disagreed on many things but also agreed on many more. Can't say christianity is more moral when many pagan faiths held similar values at the time. Books like "The Darkening Age" really cheapen the discussion and only serve to keep harmful myths alive by trying to view the religious tension of the late Roman empire in a vacuum.
Both of those books pale in comparison to the unsubstantiated and extraordinary claims of the Bible. People will readily defend it and actually even consider ignoring any scrutiny, skepticism, critical thinking, or rationale that may undermine a belief in those claims as virtuous and are applauded and encouraged. The willful ignorance and hypocrisy is staggering
"Religion of love and tolerance" my ass. I can't fathom what those native populations went through and this not being talked about enough makes me so sad. It'd be so awesome if all of these native religions and cultures were still around. Japan was one of the very few countries that did not get Abrahamised
@@mervincrasto6867 The Romans accepted worship of other gods and deities. Heck they even worshipped the gods of the regions that they ruled over. This is in stark contrast with Abrahamic cults that destroyed the native religions of every culture they invaded. Because intolerance towards other religions and ideologies is at the very core of their belief. Christians, jews and muslims are great at playing the victim. They will point towards the persecution but will never talk about the WHY.
@@Jonas-ej7id Cassius Dio sums this up in a speech he gives to Augustus’ friend and counsellor, Gaius Maecenas addressing the emperor: “You should not only worship the divine everywhere and in every way in accordance with our ancestral traditions, but also force all others to honour it. Those who attempt to distort our religion with strange rites you should hate and punish, not only for the sake of the gods … but also because such people, by bringing in new divinities, persuade many folks to adopt foreign practices, which lead to conspiracies, revolts, and factions, which are entirely unsuitable for monarch.” (Dio Cassius, Hist.Rom. 36.1-2)
@@Jonas-ej7id The Romans never worshipped the Gods of the Germans and druids although both the pantheons had a lot of similarities. This list could include Jews who they kept under the their dominance. There are a lot of writings from different Roman historians who mention the rising of different cults and they also mention the absurdities of their practices in contrast to Roman religious traditions. The one by Dio Cassius is just one abstract.
Tolerance has never been part of Christian dogma, tolerance is a necessary evil but nothing else in Catholic and Orthodox traditions. And your beloved Japan will end up becoming Christian by the simple demographic logic and the interest of the Japanese themselves for Christianity (notably on Christian marriage)
I love her point of view in telling this story because it's not heard enough in today's world. Christianity won so we have plenty on the view that christianity is the one true and and that's not correct. It's not the only way to be and think and it doesn't mean you're evil or bad if you aren't christian. Criticism helps keep us in check. All power and all holy is a really dangerous thing to give one group for man kind. I appreciate and thank her.
Apparently there's a lot of people that would rather stick with Christian sources rather than the sources the Vatican hides from us within their vaults.
@@justinallen2408 Historians are periodically given access to sources from the Vatican, they can request for any source from the Vatican which thy can get from their references and records of book collections.
She says she doesn't know how/why Christianity could be so adamantly against Paganism but I think it can be gotten from 4 places, The Roman, The Jew, The Personal and The Theological. The Roman. As she explained, the Romans mostly accepted worship of non-roman gods and use of non-Roman cosmologies because those fit pretty nicely into the Roman worldview/religion. When the Jews came around and their religion didn't mesh with the Roman world view, they were harassed for this, but they knew to be keep isolate from others and their religion agreed enough with Rome that it could be let go, but when Christianity arrived, in many important places of theology, it frictioned with Roman belief, so you get the periodic persecutions and disenfranchisement. Roman worldview and Christian worldview while not opposites, certainly didn't mix, so Rome persecuted them and vice versa. Another thing is that most Christians at the end of the day were still Romans, as she said, Rome and Romans solved alot of their problems with violence, just because they had started converting to Christianity didn't mean that this attitude of solving problems with violence just vanished. So now we have Romans with the Christian cosmology not the Roman one. The Christian cosmology is less fluid than the Roman one and still being Romans they still solved all their problems with violence, so their issues of religion whether under Roman or Christian religion were both still solved with violence. Edit:- To update this, Christianity was the only religion the Romans violently persecuted, they did it to Manicheans who they Persecuted to extinction whose similar theology to Christianity and Buddhism and Persian origin made it theologically less compatible with Roman Paganism and reminiscent of their eternal enemies to the East. The Romans also persecuted the Druids to extinction, similar thing as above with political and theological(well, the Roman writers that defamed wrote as if it had this issue as well) misalignment with Rome and its traditional religion. The Theological. As I said, Christian Theology is significantly different from Roman cosmology and as she said, they considered many of those gods demons, false prophets, tempters and the rest. In many of this cases of attacking the temples (but not the people), it would have been seen as rescuing the people. In a religion that valorizes self sacrifice and helping people to such an extent that some early Christians were even debating whether killing should be legal or not, there were few avenues to be violent and releasing that violent energy on statues and the rest was the acceptable violent release. The Jewish. At the end of the day, Christianity is a Jewish religion and what do we see in the Jewish Bible?, The acts of driving out heretics from the religious community, purifying temples and killing false prophets and from the above point, destroying the devils, idols and their allies are well represented in Jewish scripture as good. Like this is basically all you need. Like Christianity doesn't have the same extent of justifications to be violent as Mosaic Judaism, so the natural societal violent actions would be maximized at those few acceptable outflows of violence. And just before Christianity's rise we had seen examples of extreme Jewish zealotry from the Maccabeans to the Jewish Revolts. That energy didn't just vanish when the first Christians were just Jews. The Personal. We need not forget that the Diocletian persecutions were the largest, most consistent and most extensive persecutions Christians had ever faced, tho at this time, as the author said, Christianity had grown too much for this to be expected to be able to have ended (tho, Hindsight is 20/20). Many of these Bishops that would attend with Constantine had been the people most fanatically Christian, willing to take any extreme suffering for the religion. Is it a surprise that having gone through a process that pushed such people to the creme of the crop, they responded with their fanaticism when in power?. Edit. One could also add in a fifth point in The Decline. Like with the Republic, the late Empire saw increased violence which while not as well documented if anything like in the Republic we should expect ideological gangs killing people to be quite common and expected.
I loved her book and would also recommend The Art of Forgetting by Harriet Flower for similar practices by other ancient cultures and The Commissar Vanishes by David King for a contemporary comparison.
Great video and interview! I just went and bought her book. Can't wait to read it. Not that I really need more books, but the subject is too interesting to not get it.
Ironically the Renaissance in Italy and later European learning owes a huge debt to Islamic scholars who discovered and translated what ancient Greek and Roman learning into Arabic and Latin and developed the ideas even introducing new mathematics. Eg Algebra. And then somewhere along the line some religious leader started to denigrate learning and Islam lost its place.
Wonderful , I just discovered your channel and its very interesting content, really impressed :). Do you have any discussions about the influence of Greek civilisation (incl Plato and Aristotle) on the shaping and emergence of Christianity. I am very interested in learning more about this and it would make a great video. Thanks so much and keep up the great work
I don’t wish to offend because I really love your work but this lady is absolutely wonderful and be far the most interesting interview I’ve watched in years ANYWHERE! Your introduction was set the mood beautifully, absolutely fantastic interview , I’m 15 mins in and I’m already drooling of the thought of another rabbit hole to go down! Love it it! Great surprise for my Easter Weekend!
Your comment means the world Ian! Thank you for watching and I absolutely adored hosting her. We had a fun and long talk off camera about Gibbon and old historians. Truly a great time.
@@topologyrob bro give up you're reading shit that a Christian scholar wrote who is as if not more biased than she is cx. Those "scholars" probably even censored half of what they copied down and burned the rest to be forgotten for all eternity. Keep coping with the lies whilst the rest of the normal people try to find out what really happened during the transition from pagan to Christian.
@@justinallen2408 You're off with the fairies dude, I'm talking about mainstream historians. Why are you so desperate to cling to nonsense by a journalist non-historian that historians reject and project onto others your problems? Copium not working for you? You sound like a fanatic with a massive axe to grind.
When I first saw the title of the program the name that came to mind was Hypatia the brilliant Ancient Greek philosopher and Mathematician who was murdered by a mob of Christian Zealots.
She was murdered because of political reasons since she supported prefect Orestes, himself a Christian. Not to mention that Hypatia actually belonged to a philosophical scho0l that rejected scientific empiricism.
A group of schismatic monks who were condemned both by the Roman Prefect and by St. Cyril of Alexandria, who also led the mourning of her death, as did her Catholic Philosophy students...
@ilesos"Black African "people have contributed nothing to human civilisation at all , but there had been Greco-Roman ( and Phoenicians )colonies across north Africa ,
@@michaeldeaton "Roman" Catholic has incorporated most of classic roman culture ,which is why the American evangelicals tend to be so hostile to Catholics, one should note that the radical Protestants regard anything beyond" Sola Scriptura " pagan / heretic.
Wow, so pleased you got Catherine Nixey on, I loved her book; it was a great introduction to the topic, I've recommended her book to tonnes of people. Another person you might want to consider asking to joint you on your channel is Edward J. Watts: he deals both with this same period and also the end of the Republic era. These would be great topics to explore more on the channel. 👊😜✌️
I wonder if these ancient polytheists didn't consider their gods in some way similar to the way the sports fans today regard their favorite teams. That discussions between those with differing opinions on the subject could, at times, become passionate, even violent.
It is my humble opinion, That Christianity is the reason for SO MANY PROBLEMS in our world today, it destroyed the Religion of our Ancestors, Say what you will about the Roman Empire, but at least they didn't destroy people simply for being a different religion, Oh your a Celt?(Im of Celtic descent) myself Sure your a Barbarian but go ahead and worship your gods and your ancestors
The Classical world didn’t end in 476, it continued in the eastern Roman Empire (which was Christian btw) and in 1453 it was reimported back to the west. History is never black and white.
Burt in the Eastern empire the academies where Plato and others taught were shut down. Eventually philosophy was practically outlawed, and no one was allowed to question religion or any matter upon which the established church had taken a position. Free thinking was essentially over, and freedom to think and reason was perhaps the greatest gift of classical Greece.
@@SagesseNoir Plato's academy was destroyed in 88 bc during the Roman Sack of Athens. The Great Library and University of Constantinople contained untold amounts of classical works which were copied and shared with the arab world as well. On top of that precious classical artworks were preserved in the city, sculptures by Lysippus, Phidias and other classical artists all existed within the city. Even the Statue of Zeus from Olympia was held in the Imperial Palace of Constantinople. As for free thinking, the people of the Eastern Roman empire were free to think as they wished and women too were afforded an education (a far cry from the polemics we hear about Christians despising women). Moreover, these were the Romans not some strange state that popped up overnight following the collapse of the western Empire. While western europe fell into barbarous darkness, the east continued, it is no coincidence that the renaissance began with the fall of the eastern Roman Empire. Not to mention the countless advances the medieval romans made in the fields of science and technology (apparently this is a great shock to westerners who believe the Byzantines were backwards due to their Christian faith). Shocking though it may be, the Christian faith as a whole is not to blame for the loss of much of Classical tradition, I would rather blame the Latin Catholics for that because they oversaw the destruction of many ancient works of philosophy and art when they sacked Constantinople in 1204. Much of what people believe to be backwards about Christianity is just bs developed by the Roman Catholic church to rule the uneducated masses of western europe in the middle ages. The Roman Empire in the east never had this issue because of the widely available education and the refusal of the Eastern church to bow to Rome's posturing.
@@dewd9327 Wars are enemies of culture, and I've no doubt that much was destroyed in Roman conquests. There was some destruction of the library of Alexandria by Caesar's soldiers. This was the kind of looting that often happens in war, and need not always be a deliberate attempt to blot out culture. But the Academy of Plato recovered, as did much of Athens, and the Academy continued for at least five or six centuries after the Roman conquests. Romans as well as Greeks were studying in the Academy for centuries after Roman sack of Athens. The Academy was finally closed down under the eastern Christian emperor Justinian. It may nonetheless be true, as you seem to infer, that the destruction of classical culture was more thoroughgoing in the western than eastern empire. The barbarian invasions certainly played a big role, and was certainly more destructive of culture than the Roman invasion of Greece. But it may not be unimportant that the Germanic barbarians who conquered the western empire were also Christians either before or not long after they overran the western empire.
@@dewd9327 that's absurd of you to claim that the Catholic Church was only responsible for the destruction of classical works whereas the actual reason would be otherwise. The clerics of the church of the western Roman Empire also had maintained large libraries of Greek, Roman and Christian works. One such library was maintained by St. Augustine which was burned by Germanic raids. Later, during the reign of Charlemagne, the schools opened by him, triggered the Carolingian Renaissance in the 8th century. Such preservation caused later brilliant minds to rise like Thomas Aquinas, Anselm of Canterbury, Albertus magnus and many more.
@@SagesseNoir I think you are undermining the contributions of emperor Julian in reviving paganism even after the Theodosius made Christianity official. I agree that a most works were lost in the Germanic raids and conquests, who were Christians. The difference here was that the Germanics were predominately converted to Arian sect of Christianity, which was the major rival of the mainstream Christianity (earlier Catholicism) that we practice today. Namely the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals and some other tribes. However, the most fatal blow to the overall condition of the Roman Empire including culture, was the conquests by Huns. The Huns had descended the Alps, into the Italian peninsula and were either ravaging, destroying or extorting a huge amount of gold from the kingdoms and only stopped after they offered them another huge tribute and their queen Honoria.
A very interesting interview. I'm reading a book about Julian the Apostate by Aleksander Krawczuk now. And...i just formally became an apostate myself!
As Julian said pagans are no apostates, but Christians are double apostates; actually bad pagans (because they converted) who became bad jews (because they got stuck halfway).
@@nicolasdemarchenoyr3700 You misunderstood my reasons. There were several philosophical, legal and historical points for leaving the Catholic church. The lecture of the book just accompanied the whole process. I'm interested in ancient history and culture. And it's quite possible (according to some historians) that Julian was murdered by Roman Christian soldier.
@@anaconda470 "The lecture of the book just accompanied the whole process" A book filled with lies and error therefore helped you in the pursuit of your errors, logic. "And it's quite possible (according to some historians) that Julian was murdered by Roman Christian soldier." I would like to have the names of the historians in question because the pagan historian and friend of Julian, Ammianus Marcellinus, who was present at the time of the events, said very clearly that Julien was killed by an unknown Persian soldier. Even if the version of a Christian soldier who kills the apostate emperor is poetic sublime, but it remains poetry and not history.
Well, as the author explained you should see it more as Roman tolerance for other gods, metaphysical ideas and ritual practices as the "religions" of that era are radically different from what we call religions today.
You know what, I changed my mind it is more simply Roman Tolerance for other gods, localized metaphysical ideas and localized rituals. They didn't really much take in other metaphysical ideas or cosmologies, instead they imposed their metaphysics and cosmology over the gods and rituals of the locals. They were also against more organized religious systems like the Druids or Jewish temples, I assume for their ability to organize a resistance to Roman cultural, military and political domination.
@@ikengaspirit3063 I agree with your assessment; anything that wasn't a threat was "tolerated", more out of expediency I think, then quietly assimilated. Judaism and "Druidism" also had sophisticated legal systems that organised and regulated society, so there would have been a major clash in jurisdiction (who controlled "the system"). I think that's the thing that would have irked the Romans the most, as they liked to run things by there own rules. Personal beliefs were probably a side issue for them, as long as they got their taxes. Sounds a lot like today actually :)
This was painful to watch, and also I'm amazed how quickly this destruction went on...and I know that a lot of people love to throw his neighbours over a bonfire ...
I've been waiting for this topic!!! It's about time to wake up! It was difficult to hear some of what she said, the accent plus an echo left me frustrated.
I have read Catherine nixey's book and i wanna say that I respect Jesus but what Christian missionaries are doing in Bharat (India) is wrong. They are converting people in the name of education, medical treatment, and in the name of gifts and financial help. They are injecting hate for their own culture and because I have seen all of these in my own neighbourhood it makes me anxious for my country. We respect all the figures of every faith but why these missionaries can't do the same. I even pray to Jesus to please save my country.
I absolutely disagree with her take btw that Gibbon is "what historians should want to be". Gibbon was not scientific in his approach, he very much put his conclusion before his research, even when the narrative he was telling was contradicting his conclusion. This does not mean Gibbon wasn't important, he wrote his works in the 18th Century after all, but he was a product of his time. Modern historians should never try to emulate his style of historiography, his approach was not one any academic should seek to emulate in the modern world.
@@marvelfannumber1 very good observation about Gibbon's contribution. To me, he's the Enlightenment version of Herodotus. Excellent read but too often alters the narrative to fit his premeditated moralistic view of history which leaves a lot of holes as you say. This moralistic style wasn't really broken down in the West until the late 19th century by historians like William Stubbs who started thinking more correctly terms of institutional change. Personally think ancient Chinese historian Sima Qian approached a model of sorts for historical method and he was writing in 100BC!
@@willmosse3684 it's not that she's completely wrong but her work recycles Gibbon's broad moralistic-based argument that early Christians destroyed classical civilization and caused a dark age. Most modern historians consider such a Classical vs Dark Age distinction as an overly simplistic view of European history.
@@samroconnor Fair enough. Though I think there is some value in the “dark ages” moniker, even though mainstream academia turned against the phrase. I think there was possibly an over correction regarding what was originally an overblown concept. As she said, there is no doubt that a lot of intellectual achievement was lost. But still, I take your point.
Well, if you would like to know where the notion of learned monks and nuns came from, then the Carolingian Renaissance would be the best place to look at. If I remember correctly Charles the Great *forced* the monks and nuns to copy books, such as the Bible.
@Joseph Percy This Christian cancel culture is nothing compared what the woke and PC brigade and Big tech, are doing today. Christians were tame compared to what Non-Christians did before them and after them.
Wokes hate Christianity and want to get rid of it. Stop living in Lala land. In fact, Christianity is the antidote of wokeness. It's obvious you're clueless about authentic Christianity.
@@justinallen2408 I just don't buy the whole ancient knowledge trope that you seem to do. No, the Burning of the Library of Alexandra and of the Library of Bagdad didn't set us back a combined 2000 years.
@Black Wolf That whenever Christianity (or any Monotheistic religion for that matter) encounters another religion, especially a Polytheistic one, it's first course of action is to eradicate it.
@@HoundofOdin destroying demonic and oppressive systems like paganism is good for the world. These ideologies held the world in darkness for centuries.
I'm saddened and disgusted by how far some early Christians deviated from the way of Christ to spread his gospel. The whole point was for the word of God to change a person from within, and for them to convert because they wanted to - not for Christians to force a conversion through violence and threats.
Anyone drawing a parallel with today's happenings like the burning and defacing Christian churches (temples) by the new incursionists of Europe? eg. Notre Dame as the biggest one to-date?
@@pablobarroso2063 As a educated person you know there are always exemptions to any rule.... Well,joking aside you are right about the Aztecs. If they were not such totalitarian and hybris riden idiots the spanish would have had a much harder fight effing them up.
The worshippers of the corpse on the cross may believe they have exterminated us but we do continue to exist and offer sacrifices to the Gods and the First Principles.
@@leonieromanes7265 Interesting point. Can you give a few specific examples? Like what is the deeper wisdom in keeping slaves? Is it a good idea to condem your philosophers to death when they question knowledge or morals?
That’s a myth. Greeks and Romans didn’t always respect knowledge and wisdom. For instance, Anaxagoras (5th century BCE), claimed that the Sun was "a fiery mass, larger than the Peloponnese” charge of impiety was brought against him, and he was forced to flee Athens. Reportedly , in Protagoras' lost work, On the Gods, he wrote: "Concerning the gods, I have no means of knowing whether they exist or not, nor of what sort they may be, because of the obscurity of the subject, and the brevity of human life." The agnostic position taken by Protagoras aroused anger, causing the Athenians to expel him from the city, and all copies of his book were collected and burned in the marketplace. Diocletian also burnt all the books about chemistry when he took retook Egypt because he was angry that they had rebelled. *James Partington’s 1957 book entitled, A Short History of Chemistry. In this book, Partington explains that little is known today about ancient chemistry because much of what was written down did not survive antiquity. He says that the word “Chemistry” first appeared in a Roman edict in which all books of the Egyptians in Alexandria on the topic of chemeia are ordered to be burnt.* *Diocletian sought out and burned books about this. [It is said] that due to the Egyptians' revolting behavior Diocletian treated them harshly and murderously. After seeking out the books written by the ancient [Egyptians] concerning the alchemy of gold and silver, he burned them so that the Egyptians would no longer have wealth from such a technique, nor would their surfeit of money in the future embolden them against the Romans.* There’s many examples of this. Christians didn’t invent books burnings. Pagans did. In fact during Christians persecutions, the pagans would always have all Christians works and writings burnt.
@@leonieromanes7265 As did of course the early Christians, if you don't cherry pick and distort as Nixey does. Her simplistic reduction is kind of like saying "all Europeans are violent - just look at the mafia!"
@@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 Century by century, Decade to decade, the destruction of the classical world needs to be documented. "Was the destruction pre planned or a sequence of consequences" will be a good premise to start the series with.
OMG, Nick, your shows just keep astounding me. And I read Catherine's book not too long ago and was enraged. I am excited to see what you present for future shows.
I’m thrilled to read your comment hooks! I really enjoyed her work and about a years worth of perseverance managed to host this awesome professional. And thank you! We have some good ones coming!
Nope, it remained in Constantinople until the Bishop of Rome sent a punitive action to destroy Constantinople (basically). Power in the West was never transferred to the Bishop but to the King of the Goths, who wasted it.
If I understand correctly, the early christians fell into different groups themselves and there was a lot of in-fighting. There was Marcionism, the Ebionites, the pneumatomachi etc.
The Classical World is not only about religion, things like writing, law, engineering, social hierarchy was not destroyed by the Christians, look at the Byzantine Empire, adoption of roman customs by the Franks. If was not for the norman invasions the Pope by the time would maintain the roman aqueduct. Indeed Christianity did "kill" the paganism within the Roman Empire but what was compatible and useful were kept. Interesting is that many of those people who complains about the destructions of those pagan temples, don't really care about churches being turned into bars.
We had a church in our town turned into a Tesco mini-market. It was an old methodist church. I had a real revulsion to seeing it even though Im not Methodist. Sacrilege. I expect that's what the pagans felt too seeing their temples desecrated.
After reading Catherine Nixey's book The Darkening Age, Christianity should be charged with crimes against humankind for the self-serving destruction of ancient art and the libraries of the classical world.
I’m always grateful to experts who appear on your channel, but perhaps you should require that they use microphones. There are several things this lady says that I can’t understand at all, even with the captions.
@Joseph Percy One who didn’t adopt the religion of the elite and maintained what is spiritually superior regardless of what anyone said to him. Julian deserves praise for to me he is honorable, yet my only complaint is that he failed to institutionalize our religion instead of going off to fight in Persia, he should have focused on our religion.
@Joseph Percy If the Greco-Roman religion was established in form of the institution using the Neo-Platonism (philosophy of Julian II, he followed the teachings of Iamblichus) as a guide through ridged paths. Sadly, an institution of power-ridden man worshippers has ruined everything. I am of Celtic and Germanic descent actually, our religion, our customs, our ethics, and way of life in general in Northern Europe would have benefited as well if Christianity didn't have power. Now look at Germanic or Celtic culture there's not much of it unless it invokes a man-deity, by the divine, our art completely ruined imagine a world that is more like that of the Rohirrim and Rohan, in Tolkien LOTR that's how Germanic culture would have been, our people would be our people and see themselves as such, now we all lost in the sea of globalism with no identity outside of modernity, Christianity and it's consumerism.
@Joseph Percy If your interested check into the Neo-Platonist, Priscian there are some dialogues between the Zoroastrian court. The Answers to Chosroes contain a series of answers to philosophical questions which were apparently posed to Priscian in a debate at the Persian court during his exile (When the Byzantines banned philosophy).
@Joseph Percy Btw to add to my comment, we still have an identity but we are separated from what I call, primordial logos which relates to the Indo-Europeans themselves. Our people descendants of amazing cultures yet blinded by the foreign religions which don't only corrupt or separate us from who we are but also from intellect and reason itself. As Philosopher, we must reject all forms of parasitic vices, corruption, and mistakes especially that which blinds us from logos, corrupts the very self, and takes away all aspects of reason.
Catherine Nixey's work is taken as a joke among real historians. You should take this video down because, so far as I'm concerned, you've already completely misinformed about 13,000 people with this one.
@Yahweh Official Yep, I'm a Christian. No, those scholars are not Christian. Search up the review of Nixey's book by Tim O'Neill, who is an atheist. The book is complete and utter garbage. The fact that you genuinely denied the facts I wrote in my initial comments without doing a hint of research suggests that you're more than willing to let Nixey (who isn't even a freaking historian) do the thinking for you.
@@everyzylrian Well, she did accept that her work is highly biased to the Pagan perspective and more your emotional journalist piece than an actual historical work.
Is it true that it was the Arabic world that saved many of the records of the classical world which were eventually translated establishing the foundation of what humanity knows today?
A better more accurate statement is it's the "Muslim" world that saved many of the records because it was Muslims across the world that played a part in that not just Arab Muslims
At first they had to conquer half of Christian world (the richer one). Only then some of the books were translated into Arabic/Syriac. On the other hand there were also books saved by Christian monks in Greece or Western Europe.
@@okcydent4901 True true but also conquered Persia due to the Roman and Persian empires weakening each other, Syriacs, Hindus, and Jews even then flocked to Bagdad. Greek and Roman monks in the West also preserved older texts but unfortunately were not widely available to the public due probably to Julian the "apostate" emperor putting a ban on Christians from teaching Greek philosophy.
I really LIKED her book. Yes, it has it's own perspective, an unconventional perspective which some might regard as "bias". But that's would be true of any book. THE DARKENIG AGE offers a different point of view. A point of view that challenges dominant points of view. A part of the story that we generally don't get
She is a mere journalist! No more! I recommend rather to read such authors like Pater Brown "The cult of saints" or "The rise of western christendom". :)
@Joseph Percy What are facts and what a interpretation? I think Peter Brown would never agree with such general and superficial thesis about "destruction classical world"
So called "classical antiquity" is not the same as pagan religions or even their temples or statues! She doesn't understand the dynamics of change! Also the change of cruel customs of roman world. From other perspective christianity is also part of "classical antiquity". Roman Empire was christian state for very long time. One can also easily say that in Christian world ancient heritage survived in many aspects of philosophy, art and law. I don't even mention East Roman Empire that survived until 15th century! If we say about destroying of temples and so called tolerance, we cannot treat that issue ahistorically. Anyway she uses facts very selectively. Pagan communities enjoyed relative peace for many generations after Constantine as Peter Brown claims in "Christianization and Religious Conflict" in The Cambridge Ancient History, vol. XIII: The Late Empire, Cambridge University Press 1998, p. 633. Anyway destroying temples is other issue, catholics destroying its own temples that were works of art, like for example The Constantine Basilica in Rome to built today's The Basilica of St Peter. People very late realized the value of ancient buildings. Forum Romanum in 19th was still the pasture. :) So there are no facts, there are only their interpretations as Nietzsche said. :) The issue is complicated, but was treated here with ready-made thesis. That picture with people holding crosses in hands in late antiquity. :) Thats really very funny. I don't buy that. :) Have nice day :)
Coming from a religious family and "discovering" maybe doesn't make for the most equilibrate point of view about the issue, by reaction... Anyway, in places early Christianity got VERY destructive to Hellenism. It did, interestingly, when it got overtt Imperial sanctions AND support by figures of power in the context of local struggles of power. Egypt with the well-known case of Hypatia is the prime, but not the only example.
Sure, it was destructive to hellenism. That is why New Testament was originally written in Greek, why all those early ecumenical councils like in Nicea and Chalcedon were conducted in greek, why Orthodox monasteries in Meteora have Aristotle and Platon painted next to saints and why theologians like Aquinas used greek philosophical terms and Aristotelianism to explain their beliefs.
@@herodotus945 destruction of "idols" does not equate with an utter refusal of extant philosophy and high culture. The Byzantines showed great respected to their Hellenistic heritage, for that: especially writers from which they copied the style, trying to "freeze" the natural evolution of the Koiné into Modern Greek. Anyway I was referring mostly to the Egyptian context, where we positively know that the last phase of Christianization was marked by intense social strife and deliberate destruction of previous religious sites. That the ability of understanding hierogliphic script, which had suvived for centuries and centuries among Egyptian traditional priesthood while everyone actually used demotic of even Greek for day-to.day activity, went lost around the year 400 and quite suddenly, is no coincidence.
I think the biggest motivator for the destruction was greed, even if monks were stealing treasure “for the church”. ISIS claims it’s destroying pagan idols, but they don’t bother unless they’re in the way of the “treasures” that they naively believe are there. Not that the first motivation makes it any better. I think the art of previous generations can and should be preserved without having to believe in the gods represented in them, and fortunately, most modern people believe the same.
