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Dating Fanny Alger [Mormonism Live 189]

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Join hosts Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel on this captivating episode of "Mormonism Live," where the tantalizing title "Dating Fanny Alger" sets the stage for an exploration of one of the most controversial relationships in Mormon history. This week, our esteemed guests Don Bradley, Cheryl Bruno, and Chris Smith delve into the detailed research aimed at determining the precise calendar date of Joseph Smith's relationship with Fanny Alger.
While the title might initially evoke the image of a romantic outing between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger, our discussion promises much more than a playful tease. We dive deep into historical records, piecing together evidence to shed light on the timeline of their relationship.
Our experts will guide us through the complexities of early Mormon history, revealing the broader implications and the controversy that has surrounded this period for over a century. From examining contemporary accounts to analyzing historical documents, this episode promises to be an enlightening journey into the past.
Tune in to "Dating Fanny Alger" on "Mormonism Live" - where we uncover the truth behind the title and explore the intricate details of one of Mormonism's most intriguing stories.
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Опубликовано:

28 авг 2024

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Комментарии : 156

@karenl7791 Месяц назад

If it was only an "adoption sealing" with Fanny Alger, why was she sealed only to Joseph Smith and not to Emma ?

@boydx4687 Месяц назад

Joseph Smith could probably give an answer, but I don't think I would believe it.

@senorbb2150 Месяц назад

That is really an excellent question.

@onandagus1 Месяц назад

According to the source, it appears to have been both

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

It's because Joseph hadn't dreamed up that aspect of his practice when he was fooling with Fanny's fanny. He only came up with the "sealing the whole human family together" thing around 1840, to provide "divine justification" for his sexual proclivities. You've heard about these BYU students who go to Nevada on the weekends and get a quickie wedding just so they can have sex legally on paper? That's kinda what Joseph's "sealings" were. It gave him religiously-sanctioned access to ladies' drawers. But then Joseph would turn around and excommunicate church members who were committing regular old adultery.

@brianfielden9320 Месяц назад

Sealing power - regardless of type - was not given until 1836. Todd Compton reports that Smith married Fanny in 1833 - and sealings hadn't been invented by then. Apologists want you to believe it was in 1835/36 to correspond to when sealing authority was given.

@natalies4375 Месяц назад

Great episode. Fascinating panel of historians, new research, and varying opinions and views of the evidence.

@m4r1t4c4 Месяц назад

I really appreciate this episode and all the work that went into the presentations and discussions. I adored seeing people with varying perspectives of the LDS faith able to have a delightful and stimulating conversation without any perceptible stress, let alone malice. I look forward to reading the book. I was also pleasantly surprised to hear so much about the Webb family. I'm a descendant and a first cousin to several people mentioned! I especially appreciated Christopher Smith talking about presentism and relative morality. While Cheryl seems like a very nice person I found it more difficult to appreciate her perspective since I could not see clearly how she was acknowledging and identifying her biases then stepping away from them. It made it difficult to trust her perspective on how the Webbs, LDS leaders, or Fanny Alger viewed sealings and relationships. I highly suspect that won't be an issue when looking at the book. I just wondered if she was trained as a historian. Cheryl, if you see this, I really appreciate your work on the book! I do not mean any slight to you. I just want to understand as best I can. Thanks again everyone!

@m4r1t4c4 Месяц назад

Oh, I wanted to say Don Bradley had brilliant thoughts on that conversation as well. I really thought you knocked it out of the park, Don!

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

😂🎉@@m4r1t4c4

@casterrunner8709 Месяц назад

Fabulous as usual! It amazes me how many people really research church history. Loved all of this. Thanks guys and gal!

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

"Dating Fanny Alger?" I wouldn't call what she and Joseph did "dating." :-)

@senorbb2150 Месяц назад

Their dates were very "transactional".

@Moksha-Raver Месяц назад

Hope Rebecca Biblioteca has a chance to speak at the Texas Temple meeting.

@merrybachelorette Месяц назад

Well Oliver Cowdery was deeply offended so I don’t think my ‘out of that time period’ judgment about Joseph Smith’s conduct here is out of alignment with people of that day.

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

The crazy thing is, these Joseph Smith polygamy deniers assert that Smith had nothing to do with polygamy, but one of the charges against Cowdery in his church court was accusing Joseph of adultery.

@merrybachelorette Месяц назад

Ah! Good point!

@honderwoman1 Месяц назад

Were sons ever adopted?

@sallygreenfield6991 Месяц назад

Such a good question! I found this research interesting, but nowhere near as compelling as Cheryl kept insinuating that it was. I appreciate her enthusiasm for the project, but I am a critical thinker, and I felt there were a LOT of unexplored questions. Which is how all research is, don't get me wrong, but the constant "I don't see how anyone could dispute these claims once they hear this evidence" statements really rubbed me the wrong way. To the point where I almost stopped watching.

@zackc3767 Месяц назад

Don Bradley and Chris Smith on Mormonism Live? It's like the Mormon Discussions message board circa 2008 has become sentient.

@RIO4LIFE Месяц назад

This was a great episode - one I will watch again. There was a lot of information here. Thx 💥🧶📣🎉

@mamaG-bf1ey Месяц назад

Did Joseph ever have his own dead children sealed to him & Emma? Where& when?

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

I think he is correct on modern day polygamy. Yes , a woman would still have to accept and acknowledge the possibility that her husband will have more than one wife sealed to him. I think women now might be trying to push back on this , but how can they unless the church changes the entire polygamy doctrine

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

Just like Joseph took off when gov Ford was coming for him after Nauvoo Expositor....dude had a pattern....

@thelastgoonie6555 Месяц назад

Was it an "adoption" like the Partridge Sisters who Joseph took in "as his own?"

@Moksha-Raver Месяц назад

Soaking was big at BYU, but Penetrative Adoption could sweep the entire campus.

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

Who R these folks??????Ok soaking was ewwww but penetrative adoption is go wash out your minds....um isssshhhhhhh

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

Huh????????

@darkapertureproductions2753 Месяц назад

😂

@craigarooney Месяц назад

Ahh, yes… the “Who’s your Daddy now?” revelation.

@darkapertureproductions2753 Месяц назад

“There’s a sucker born every minute” - Joseph Smith.

@plastic-nomad Месяц назад

The language Oliver Cowdery used to describe the Fanny Alger incident just doesn't match the premise that it was some kind of adoption. This is just new apologetic mental gymnastics for me.

@onandagus1 Месяц назад

If you watched the whole video before commenting, you might notice that no one says there was only an adoption. Rather, everyone acknowledges that there was also an amorous relationship

@plastic-nomad Месяц назад

@@onandagus1 I'm sorry, I wasted 57 years of my life dedicated to a fraud. I just don't have the patience for more apologetic BS. Taking advantage of a teenage girl employed in your own house is not an "amorous" relationship. It's predatory plain and simple.

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

@@plastic-nomad Well, that too. But don't discount the possibility that Fanny may have been a "groupie" type teenage girl who was flattered and taken in by the attentions of the powerful, charismatic church leader. Remember, more than 30 other women willingly plural married Smith, including 11 teenagers.

@marquitaarmstrong399 9 дней назад

Okay victim blaming rears its 7 hydra head again!!!!!@@randyjordan5521

@kellishafron5920 Месяц назад

Why would God, who wants restoration want anything that was considered "esoteric"??

@edbutzwiggle4227 Месяц назад

Brilliant! I absolutely loved listening to these great scholars. And Don, 💯👍, you rock! Thank you to you all for offering this fantastic interview. 🤗

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

That story of Joseph going to Salem is in the book " Mormon Enigma Emma Hale Smith. I did wonder why he did that. This makes perfect sense now

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

Dude was always on the run.....

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

Dude was always running from his frauds.

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

@@marquitaarmstrong399 always

@merrybachelorette Месяц назад

A big question regarding consent or non consent of polygamy with regard to Fanny Alger is if Joseph’s ‘doctrine’ of polygamy was developed after the intimacy developed, or to what extent it coincided with the developing intimacy, if he was justifying his own inclinations, etc. It certainly does not appear that it was a relationship that Emma expected to be a marriage or had full informed consent of, as to what type of relationship it was, would be or if it extended beyond a short interlude or reached beyond life into the heavens - in looking at the aftermath it has the appearance of an interlude with no long term life. She moved on fairly quickly and left Mormonism too. She is considered an eternal wife, surely?

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

There were rumors of Joseph chasing skirts even before he met and married Emma Hale.

@merrybachelorette Месяц назад

@@randyjordan5521- yes, I never know that unit now. Honestly the lack of information about his conduct and ac unities has been a large part of a huge problem with modern day practices within polygamy I think.

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

@@merrybachelorette The details of Joseph's extra-marital affairs is the very reason why the church has been reticent to say much about it all of these years.

@iamjustsaying1 Месяц назад

Excellent panel, although I strongly disagree with Cheryl's thinking around polygamy that we need to not look so harshly at it. Don was a 🎯 in his response, as was Bill. JS was a predator and a con-man.

@darci1633 Месяц назад

Thanks!

@orisonorchards4251 Месяц назад

I couldn't listen very long. I just don't understand how anyone can defend Joseph Smith after all of his lies and predations. All of this research seems like such a stretch, which, in the end, still does not justify Joe's predations. Joe was already married, 2-3 times the age of most of his victims, the legal guardian of several of them and the prophet. The power imbalance was such that no relationship could possibly have been consensual EVEN if Joe had NOT coerced the girls with threats of his death by the angel with the drawn sword and also with threats to their families salvation.

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

The very idea that God would issue a commandment which required people to commit adultery is unbelievable. Believing that God sent an angel with a drawn sword to threaten Joseph with death if he didn't comply is downright ridiculous.

@morley79 Месяц назад

Were boys ever "adopted" or just cute girls?

@fionamcdonald9823 Месяц назад

Fantastic episode, thank you all so much. The discussions at the end were great to listen to.

@cynthiarees2503 Месяц назад

Great episode, but I'm still confused about why the date matters. If Joseph had sex with Fanny Alger, he broke the marriage vow he had made to Emma. His reasons are irrelevant. In ancient scripture, as well as Joseph's own scripture (D&C 132), the first wife is informed about the subsequent wives before the marriages take place. Emma didn't know about Fanny until after the marriage/sealing and consummation had occurred. Joseph cheated on his wife. The form of his "sealing" doesn't change his cheating heart and Emma's later denials prove that his cheating broke her heart.

@MormonDiscussion Месяц назад

Whether she was under age or not, and whether it came after sealing, keys were delivered or not

@nickdipaolofan5948 Месяц назад

@@MormonDiscussion Agreed, this episode was important because the timeline shows that Joseph had a habit of making up revelation or doctrine to retroactively justify his actions he already took. It seems to me that his biggest "revelations" seem to occur when he is caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

Emma didn't know about most of Joseph's other 30+ side women, either. And the ones she knew about, she put out of her house when she suspected hanky-panky. Think about her, a mother of several young children, with her husband canoodling with other women right in their own house.

@marquitaarmstrong399 9 дней назад

Have thought js was a bum. Bet low digit 2@@randyjordan5521

@kol2456 Месяц назад

2:07:00 THIS is exactly why I went through with the creepy Endowment ceremony at all. Even as I was actively recognizing the symbology as Masonic, I keep a smile on my face, said the words and quietly followed because I believed.

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

May God bless you and reclaim your mind heart and soul.🎉🎉

@kol2456 Месяц назад

@@marquitaarmstrong399 I'm going to ask you politely to please not pray for me in public like that. Please.

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

@@kol2456 It couldn't hoit.

@kol2456 Месяц назад

@@randyjordan5521 I would like to not have to explain how exactly it does/has hoit, and still have my wishes respected. Respecting the space that others respectfully ask for can't hurt. I promise you.

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

@@kol2456 I'm an atheist, but I don't mind if people want to pray for me. It doesn't hurt me at all.

@ccardall Месяц назад

Are there any sources before Joseph’s death that use the words “adopt” or “adoptive” or “adoption”, in connection with the sealing power?

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

There is secrecy even if nothing happens.

@merrybachelorette Месяц назад

But I will add that I do appreciate the exploration of these uncomfortable issues with respect and openness. Consent is a Huge issue for me and I appreciate Don’s acknowledgment of and addressing the issue of consent.

@patriciafinn5717 Месяц назад

What shady behaviour..how was this part of a restoratipn?? If it.happened today would amyone join.the church?? Just imterested..

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

It is happening today. Sheeple refuse to be thinking people.

@jewelgazer Месяц назад

Leviticus 18:6-26 goes into GREAT DETAIL about incest, including siblings, in-laws, aunts, uncles etc etc. Smith claimed to have the full gospel so was Leviticus “not translated correctly”? I think not.

@countkolob Месяц назад

Secret Gardens. LOL!

@DapperDontheDad Месяц назад

Fanny Alger "adopted" by Joseph Smith? Makes you rethink how Joseph viewed pedophilia as being acceptable. This is just way too weird and disturbing!

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

Joseph and Emma constantly took people in. I don't have any knowledge of this Fanny and Joseph adoption. I do not think she was considered a part of the family that way. She wasn't there long and Joseph knew she had to go after the affair was made public. When i think of adoption , I think of when Joseph and Emma adopted the twins. I have never heard of this adoption ritual.

@aredesuyo Месяц назад

If the Elijah visit actually occurred in 1836, why is it that Joseph continued for the rest of his life to refer to the coming of Elijah as a future event? Or didn't he?

@bryantsmith1295 Месяц назад

I was thinking of the date given for the Fanny Alger scrape, and how it was mentioned (by Don, IIRC), that this is the year after the D&C 1835 denial of polygamy. I've forgotten now if this was discussed at length, but I'm curious what discussions, or what acts, were going on prior to the publication of that section that caused there to be allegations of polygamy. Does anyone know, or have leads on, what was happening, and who it was that was making claims of polyamy of whom prior to the 1835 D&C publication?

@chuckkv Месяц назад

Dehlin's 2nd Anointing interview w/ Tom Phillips seems to indicate Phillips is sealed to Elder Hollands, via the 2nd anointing ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zdS28ZVAsNM.html It would be a good follow-up w/ him to understand that better and to see if 2nd anointing is a continuing "adoption" sealing ceremony

@GuisborneAdmirer Месяц назад

Keep in mind that Ann Eliza Webb was born in 1844. Information she got would be from her mom and not Alger herself.

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

She grew up in Utah polygamy culture, and she heard the stories from the people who knew Joseph Smith well.

@onandagus1 Месяц назад

As mentioned in the episode itself. But you may be confusing Ann Eliza with her mother Eliza Jane, who is the one who tells us she got her information directly from Fanny herself.

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

@@onandagus1 Yo Don, it's kinda funny that Michelle Stone and her fellow travelers disbelieve that Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger had an affair, while your panel spends 2.5 hours detailing the evidence for it. "Can you say 'denial', boys and girls? I thought you could."---Mr. Rogers

@cynthiastrech6760 Месяц назад

I can follow the rationale of July 1836 for the ending! Something I am deeply curious about. Saying that Emma would have discovered after months not years, does not line up with other wife’s experiences that go on for much longer than Fanny lived in their home. Emma may not have been vigilant at first, and later it did not help enough. Disparaging Mosiah’s belief that he could run and not be weary and walk and not faint because he lived the Word of Wisdom is mocking something he was proud of and is remembered for. He was old enough to know Joseph before he died, participated in the whistling and whittling band as a youth, he grew up bold. In Arizona he ran long distance foot races and won, which garnered him a reputation. The second story of the Kirkland temple is too fun of a tale to discard. It would have made a great church movie. Scripture Central should have done that. Any way the truth is invaluable. Thanks for the timeline on this much. It is not just the disappointment of dark aspects of Joseph, but our very own ancestors involvement in it.

@sallygreenfield6991 Месяц назад

Yeah, there were a lot of assumptions made in this research that I do not personally think were as concrete as they were presented to be here. They might be right, but I'm not convinced that any of this was proven at all.

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

Feathering. Brothers were there who did not like Emma's hudband fooling with their young sister.@sallygreenfield69you know none of us were. However there r 2 many times when u can see ol joe could not keep it zipped. Look back at the tar and feathering incident....hmm smoke. Fire91

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

Ol Jo was a deflector. Just like good ol mega don

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

Reiteration. Old.Joe.Lied.He lied. Class over.

@brianfielden9320 Месяц назад

Joseph Smith: Loved as a prophet, but despised by his in-laws and the husbands whose wives he stole.

@debbiedonovan8362 4 дня назад

You know, i didnt want to watch this because i feel 'trauma bonded' to this poor girls story.. it literally hurts my heart, and the 'happiness letter ' constantly quoted from a pulpit.. i hate, the LDS church hid Joseph's 'spiritual wifes' from believers... it is more criminal the Joseph's polygamy.. generational scars on woman...😢

@amygreen758 Месяц назад

I'm related to Julia Murdock Smith lol.

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

Joseph was understanding that he was a cowardly fraud. Let us not forget the march to reclaim Zion......

@anonanon1982 15 дней назад

👍🏻

@marquitaarmstrong399 Месяц назад

Wasn't there something about Emma helping get Fanny out of town b4 Fanny could testify? Or am I confused....

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

No, it was Levi Hancock who did that.

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

Is the last caller still in the church? Believe it or not, I still am an active member, but I see everyday how Joseph Smith used his position as a prophet , to manipulate and change revelation to fit his situations. I sometimes think Emma was spell bound by Joseph from the beginning. And yes , I also think he tried to stop polygamy because he knew it was not from God . As Emma said it was a doctrine from hell. Still it is doctrine to this day. I do not adore Joseph Smith. He definitely had a power over people and he knew that. To Josephs side, he did at least believe in Jesus Christ. He believed he was a prophet called from God . To me , he was more of a seeker of mystical beliefs.

@PatriciaHaggard Месяц назад

No, I left the church about 4 years ago.

@ArslanOtcular 6 дней назад

Perez Jennifer White Matthew Anderson Angela

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

Emma is my unsung hero. I know she stayed with Joseph through everything. She did love him and honestly,what could she do? I believe she did at one point, mention divorce after she found out about Eliza Snow. To me , Emma was spell bound by Joseph Smith. He was so bad to her yet claimed to love her !

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

According to William Law, Emma was just as crooked as Joseph.

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

@@randyjordan5521 no. Not true. You need to read the book , Mormon Enigma Emma Hale Smith. If you can find it. William Law only had issue with Emma at one point. She , be cause of Joseph's polygamy and sealings , she agreed to

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

@@randyjordan5521 the only time William Law had any major differences with Emma was because of polygamy. Emma was in a position no one ever had to deal with. Joseph was sealed to so many women. In order for Emma to be sealed to Joseph, she had to give her approval for the other plural wives. She chose the Partridge sisters , who were already sealed to him but she did not know that..even after that Emma struggled with it. So, William Law, never approved of polygamy and it caused a break for him with Emma . It was also the Lawrence sisters . And they were all living in the mansion house ! I get more angry with Joe Smith each time I read how he lied to Emma and those faithful people who trusted him...like those now who defend him without question

@orisonorchards4251 Месяц назад

@@randyjordan5521I agree with William Law. Emma definitely wasn't stupid. She certainly looked under the fabric and knew the plates were a scam. But the scam is what buttered her bread and, more importantly, her children's bread. She was physically and emotionally abused by Joe. She had to flee multiple homes, Joe never provided security nor stability. Emma suffered his predations from the start. She knew he was no prophet. She was publicly humiliated over and over by Joe's philandering WITH HER FRIENDS. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she did actually try to poison him and I also wouldn't blame her. Women couldn't own property. How would she have provided for her children, had she been allowed to take them (unlikely). Emma wasn't stupid, she was STUCK. And she was complicit. And she was a remarkable woman in an impossible situation. I don't judge her at all. I feel a ton of empathy for her. Her biggest mistake was marrying a conman/sexual predator.

@randyjordan5521 Месяц назад

@@rosemariebennett7213 "You need to read the book , Mormon Enigma Emma Hale Smith." I bought my copy of it about 25 years ago, thanks. Here is what William Law said about Emma: “Did Emma, the elect lady, come to your house and complain about Joseph?” “No. She never came to my house for that purpose. But I met her sometimes on the street and then she used to complain, especially because of the girls whom Joseph kept in the house, devoting his attention to them. You have overrated her, she was dishonest.” “What do you remember about Emma’s relations to the revelation on celestial marriage?” “Well, I told you that she used to complain to me about Joseph’s escapades whenever she met me on the street. She spoke repeatedly about that pretended revelation. She said once: “The revelation says I must submit or be destroyed. Well, I guess I have to submit.” On another day she said: “Joe and I have settled our troubles on the basis of equal rights.” * * * Emma was a full accomplice of Joseph’s crimes. She was a large, coarse woman, as deep a woman as there was, always full of schemes and smooth as oil. They were worthy of each other, she was not a particle better than he.”

@jennifernewton9539 Месяц назад

Cheryl Bruno’s voice was so annoying that I couldn’t listen to it very long.

@nickdipaolofan5948 Месяц назад

I commented to her in the nicest way possible that maybe she should work on not doing her baby voice (it CAN be done) but she just spazzed out on me and called me a woman hater................

@jennifernewton9539 Месяц назад

@@nickdipaolofan5948 you are right. She does use a baby voice.

@darkapertureproductions2753 Месяц назад

I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks her voice is annoying. It’s like nails on a chalkboard annoying!

@marquitaarmstrong399 9 дней назад

@@nickdipaolofan5948you were not that nice. Condescending.

@marquitaarmstrong399 9 дней назад

Women in the comments say you use a baby voice too. Um. Thanks Nick.

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

Cheryl Bruno, do you relatives in NJ ? The Bruno name is in my family.

@cherylbruno5368 Месяц назад

Not that I know of! Our Brunos come from Illinois.

@rosemariebennett7213 Месяц назад

@@cherylbruno5368 okay, thank you !

@nickdipaolofan5948 Месяц назад

@@cherylbruno5368 Please take this as constructive criticism; the information you all presented was great, but you may want to work on getting rid of your baby talk (high voice, sounding infantile even). It was so hard to listen to you because it is weird when a grown woman sounds like a toddler. I get that many women in the church do this when speaking publicly (they called it relief society voice) so I get where it comes from. Just hard to listen to.

@cherylbruno5368 Месяц назад

@@nickdipaolofan5948 Very frustrating for me and rather mysogynistic! I use the voice I have, which is a feminine voice. Those who know me, know I always speak like this, and do not put on any fakeness of any kind when I'm speaking publicly. I was not raised in Utah, nor was I raised Mormon, so it's not a "Relief Society voice." Now, I probably could spend hours working with a speech coach, trying to get my voice to sound more acceptable to men like you. But I prefer to spend the time on my research. People have different bodies, skin color, and voices. Deal with it.

@nickdipaolofan5948 Месяц назад

Somehow I knew you weren’t going to be able to to take any criticism…..I actually read your comment in your annoying baby talk voice. ok you widdle biddie baby, you keep the baby tawk then……heaven forbid someone try to help you out.