This was a great one. Really appreciate the last note with "just flying" creatures, sometimes players like to apply specific interactions to less specific combinations which don't require those.
This is why I actually like the cards that take away an ability, but also say "can't have/gain ___ ability" as well. Just right away lets you know that it doesn't have whatever ability no matter what.
I think that was a pretty important and informative video as the timing or time stamp of it all in situations like this have interested me. Thanks for the upload
So that would mean that you could equip Colossus Hammer to something, then equip say... Gilded Pinions to the same creature afterwards, it would successfully gain flying because the timestamp on Gilded Pinions is later?
@@ArsenicDrone Thornythopter has flying as a static ability that is time stamped before the hammer is equipped. It doesn't meet a condition to refresh. It's also not flipped.
@@zga042 OK sure, it's not inherently flipped, but it could become flipped (cloaked, etc), as discussed in the video. I believe OP's intention was that Thornythopter has an ability that grants it flying, not a card that has flying as a property. As such, if it were flipped, equipped, and then turned face-up, the timestamp on the continuous effect granted by its static ability would come after the equip effect (again, almost the same as in the video).
No. Continous effects are created by static abilities or resolutions of spells or abilities. An ability is just an ability. It can't be a continous effect althouth it can create one. A continous effect is an effect (something that does something in the game) that is applied continously. Abilities written on cards aren't even granted to those cards by a continous effect. They are slimply a part of those cards. Part of their characteristics
@@feliksporeba5851 Actually... keyword abilities are still just abilities. Some are static abilities that create a continuous effect (such as flying or haste) or a replacement effect (such as lifelink or riot), while some are triggered abilities (such as cascade or afterlife) and yet others are activated abilities (such as ninjutsu or boast). The thing here is that flying being a continuous effect doesn't matter. What matters is that Ornithopter just HAS flying, while Obstinate Gargoyle GAINS flying from a continuous effect.
@@Felixr2 Hey! We have the same name! Regarding the first paragraph: Did I write anything contradictory to what you just wrote? Regarding the second: Flying isn't a continuous effect. It doesn't represent one either. I think what you meant is "It doesn't matter whether Flying creates a continuous effect". Other than that I feel like I again wrote exactly what you did. Idk, maybe what I wrote was needlessly convoluted. I tried to explain the matter at hand as well as I could
@@feliksporeba5851 Rule 709.9a: "Flying is an evasion ability." Rule 509.1b: "... A restriction may be created by an evasion ability (a static ability an attacking creature has that restricts what can block it). ..." Which means that since flying is an evasion ability, it is also more generally a static ability. This brings us to rule 113.3d: "Static abilities are written as statements. They’re simply true. Static abilities create continuous effects which are active while the permanent with the ability is on the battlefield and has the ability, or while the object with the ability is in the appropriate zone. See rule 604, “Handling Static Abilities.”" This says clearly that static abilities create continuous effects. Flying is a static ability, so it creates a continuous effect. EDIT: In fact, rule 113.3 could've saved us some hassle. There are only four types of abilities: spell abilities, triggered abilities, activated abilities and static abilities. Clearly flying could only possibly belong in the static ability category.
Yeah. The modern decks that play it can activate Inkmoth Nexus once to turn it into a creature with flying, cast Colossus Hammer and equip it for free with Puresteel Paladin making it lose flying, then activate Inkmoth Nexus a second time to make it into a creature with flying again.
I’m definitely in the camp that feels the gargoyle should get a new timestamp here! It just FEELS right to me that it should end up with flying. Like X modification should happen, and then gargoyle should gain flying. Great explanation though as always! :)
Since modified includes equipment auras and counters, would the gargoyle gain flying if you were to apply a 1/1 counter or aura the next turn after equipping the hammer?
You can't modify a modified creature again, it's already modified since it is equipped so adding counters can't "reset" the continuous effect to have a new time stamp (especially since as stated, the time stamp for that is when the creature etb). You can equip/enchant it with something that grants it flying, so it will have the latest time stamp and apply last.
None of those things will give the gargoyle or its ability a new timestamp. 'turning the ability off and on again' or other such tricks don't affect the timestamp. Since it's a continuous ability, only something like turning it face down and face up again would give it a new timestamp.
I think the think i'm missing is when the creature becomes modified. I would assume its a state based action so after the equip resolves and it has already gained PT and lost flying. At which point it would gain flying once the card sees itself as modified. But it seems to be considered modified as soon as its targeted for the equip. Like gaining flying isnt a triggered abillity so it doesn't go on the stack with the equip. Or are the stat changes from an equip also statebased and not part of the equip resolving?
Being modified isn't something that takes any time to happen, it is just something that's true or false. As long as it's equipped/enchanted/has counters it is counted as being modified. In this case, once the equip ability resolves an equipment will be attached to it meaning that it is modified. State Based Actions are a limited list of automatic actions that the game will take any time a player would gain priority. They include things like having things die to lethal damage, cancelling out +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on the same creature and the legend rule. Being modified, gaining abilities, or changing a creature's stats aren't on the list. The later two are instead "continuous effects", which is a blanket term for things that affect the characteristics of an object and are always calculated instantaneously. 613.5: The application of continuous effects as described by the layer system is continually and automatically performed by the game. All resulting changes to an object's characteristics are instantaneous. 613.1: The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order: TLDR: being modified and getting +10/+10 both happen immediately upon equipping the hammer with no time in between.
Would it be correct to say that, if you put equipment cards behind the creatures its attached to (and the next equipment behind the first equipment etc.) Its like a small "stack", with the effects being applied one after the other?
If you stack equipement under a creature keeping the order and always put the new one on the bottom, then it will be a good representation of timestamp order. Start with the creatures characteristics, then any abilities on the creature and then equipments in order. That's a great idea to remember the order in situations where it is relevant
LOVE your vids ❤ Tough Question: Can I play an echoing deeps that copies vesuva in a graveyard to then gain vesuva's ability and as it enters copy a valakut on the board? Vesuva in graveyard Valakut in board Echoing deeps in hand Can echoing deeps enter as a valakut?
Giving them a new timestamp when they become attached is probably mostly to minimize bookkeeping hassle when it comes to things like this. It makes sense that an equipment would "start to apply" to what it's attached to when it becomes attached. Otherwise, your Colossus Hammer couldn't remove flying from creatures that entered the battlefield after it, since it would have an older time stamp than their flying and would lose out.
I had a question with Jolted Awake. It says to choose a creature or artifact in your graveyard, you get energy, then can pay energy equal to it's mana value to return it to the battlefield. Would this work with 0 cost artifact/creatures?
@@JasonOshinkoyou can in fact pay 0 life. 118.3b: Paying life is done by subtracting the indicated amount of life from a player's life total. (Players can always pay 0 life.)
I didn't realize that Colossus Hammer resets its timestamp upon equipping. Is there an easy way to tell between equipment that does and doesn't modify its timestamp?
All Equipment gets a new timestamp when attached, no exceptions. 613.7e An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp each time it becomes attached to an object or player.
A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, *_or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later_* You glossed over this part. Apparently it's somehow doesn't change the answer, but I wish you addressed it. P.S. What's the difference between an effect creating an ability and an ability creating an effect?
An effect is something that happens as a result of a spell or ability. They can be one shot, or continuous. 609.1: An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect. So for example, if you cast mighty leap to give a creature flying, that would be an effect creating an ability, so it would have a timestamp set at the resolution of mighty leap. The +1/+1 given by Glorious Anthem is a continuous effect that is generated by a static ability. It's timestamp is the same as Glorious Anthem's.
OK, so... a continuous effect (Obstinate Gargoyle has flying) generated by a static ability (Obstinate Gargoyle has flying as long as it's modified) has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on (Obstinate Gargoyle). But not... a continuous effect (Obstinate Gargoyle has flying because it's modified) generated by a static ability (Obstinate Gargoyle has flying as long as it's modified) has the same timestamp as the timestamp of the effect (becoming modified) that created the ability. I accept that the first one is the way the rules work. But at first, the second one seemed like a perfectly reasonable way to read the way the rule is worded. However, there's a catch: if you want to read it that way, becoming modified didn't create the ability, it created the other effect, and the rule talks about creating the ability. (Maybe "create" is also a technical term with a very specific meaning, I don't know.)
Yeah. That second one would apply if something said that some creature gets "as long as it's modified it has flying", in which case it would have the timestamp of the effect that gave it that whole ability.
I understand and respect what you're saying, but I need help to work out the error in my logic, written below. Scenario 1: - Hammer and OG are both on the battlefield. Time Stamps are currently irrelevant. - Ability to equip Hammer to OG resolves. Commence timestamps. - Hammer checks for all abilities on OG as it applies its abilities, anti-abilities, and P/T changes. - OG sees that Hammer has been applied as an equipment, and sees itself as "Modified". - OG gains flying as per its ability. Scenario 2: - OG and Hammer are both on the field. OG possesses a -1/-1 counter and currently declares itself as "Modified". It has flying. - Ability to equip Hammer to OG resolves. - Hammer checks for all abilities on OG as it applies its abilities, anti-abilities, and P/T changes. - OG *continues* to see itself as modified, and its status as flying or not flying does not change, resulting in Not Flying.
I think I had a similar initial reaction to your Scenario 1. So let me write out what convinced me that it didn't work that way. I believe you're relying on the "or" case in the rule that's on screen at 2:08 (at least that's how I was thinking about it). The "whichever is later" would definitely put the gains-flying effect later than the existence of the Gargoyle, if it worked that way. But I think that reading of the rule goes like this: a continuous effect (Obstinate Gargoyle has flying due to being modified) generated by a static ability (Obstinate Gargoyle has flying as long as it's modified) has the same timestamp as the timestamp of the effect (becoming modified) that created the ability. However, if you read it this way, the becoming-modified effect didn't create the ability. It generated the continuous effect (having flying due to being modified), not the entire ability (Obstinate Gargoyle has flying as long as it's modified). So the way the rule is worded, I don't think you can use it that way.
I have to disagree. The problem is that the word "loses" is on Colossus hammer. "lose" is in the same category as the word "gain" they denote a singular change that happens once as the effect of the card triggers. Any creature you attach the hammer to, you could also attach Guilded Pinions on afterwards and then it would gain flying as the changes made by the hammer being equipped have already happened, and the changes made by equipping Gilded Pinions would not make the hammer trigger again. Obstinate Gargoyle's effect on the other hand is a static ability, as it does not say "gains" flying when it is modified, it says "has flying as long as," denoting a constant effect predicated on gargoyle being modified, and that is checked every time a state based check would occur. I believe the way this would work is that equipping the hammer puts it's effect on the stack, the check for flying would happen, however the state based check for Gargoyle's ability hasn't happened yet, so it does not have flying, thus it cannot lose flying. Immediately after that resolves, the state based check occurs and the Gargoyle then has flying.
Hammer making the creature lose flying doesn't use the stack. It is on effect as long as it is equipped which is also what causes a creature to be modified. Regardless of that, the problem is that it becoming or no longer being modified doesn't change the time stamp of the static ability that grants flying. Therefore even if some strange rules shenanigans cause it to become modified after Colossus Hammer was equipped, it would still check to see the timestamp of the "has flying as long as it's modified", which is the same as the Obstinate Gargoyle itself meaning "loses flying" happens after "gains flying". In contrast, the Gilded Pinions and Colossus Hammer both receive new timestamps each time you equip them to something new. 613.7a: A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later. If the effect that created the ability has the later timestamp and the object the ability is on receives a new timestamp, each continuous effect generated by static abilities of that object receives a new timestamp as well, but the relative order of those timestamps remains the same.
With regards to the lands like Luxury Suite that say they enter tapped unless you have two or more opponents. If Nick says he is playing Luxury Suite in a commander game, can two of his opponents concede and cause his land to enter tapped?
If Nick sais that he is now playing a Luxury Suite and puts in onto the battlefield then that happens instantly. The land just lands (pun intended) on the filed. If two of his opponents decide to concede at this time then the land is already on the field. They can't force the land to enter tapped this way, because if they are REACTING to the land being played that means the land is already on the field. The situation would be different if Nick proposed some shortcut. Then his opponents could agree with Nick to do some part of the proposed actions up to some point after which they'd like to concede instead of doing what Nick proposed (probably nothing). This is the standard procedure for proposing a shortcut just involving an unorthodox game action - conceding. Note that in most casual games conceding at instant speed to have some effect on the game is frowned upon. Always talk to your playgroup if you want to do something like that
Playing a land doesn't create a chance to respond until it's already in play. Casting a spell or moving to a new step or phase of the turn creates such a chance. For example: I was in a commander game where opponent A attacked me with a lifelink creature. I knew I was going to lose on opponent B's turn, so I conceded before combat damage. He didn't get his life gain, and lost to opponent B because of that.
Conceding is Faster Than Instant Speed. The game rules specifically state that a player may concede at any time. Not when they have priority, not when state based actions are checked, not before and after every specific game action. At _any_ time. So this is a rare case in which Magic's thorough priority and timing rules won't help you. You have to decide at what moment the land is played, and whether the other players conceded before or after that. If the timing is ambiguous, then the game state is ambiguous.
@@fdkugb Conceding the game is something that doesn't require a "chance to respond" the way most game actions do, as it does not require priority, does not use the stack, and has no timing restrictions whatsoever.
