Watched it live. Could not believe how poorly White argued his position. Basically was “these unofficial Catholic sources say XYZ about Purgatory, and that’s ridiculous! Therefore, Purgatory is false.” It was essentially an argument from incredulity, and Trent was right to point out that “my opponent should be using official teachings, not some individual’s speculative theology.”
I feel that for several years he has been grasping at the wind trying to disprove the Catholic Church. God please take down his pride and bring him to the truth.
@@dandersen464 Idk how accurate this is so take it with a grain of salt. But from what I understand James’ whites father was a baptist pastor who had allegations of abuse; either sexual or that he was stealing (I’ve heard both from different sources, again take it with a grain of salt) And his sister left their church when she was an adult and became a catholic and she basically said whatever allegations against their father were true. This obviously would have caused a great deal of shame for White; but he has levied those negative feelings against the Catholic Church as a scapegoat.
individual’s speculative theology, literally, that's the entire basis of the five solaes and the framework of protestanstism, "evangelicalsim", reconstructionsim, bible societies, and all other made in-U.S fundamentalist cereal box "christianities".
Hmm, interesting. It is sad when things like that happen. I honestly don’t know if I would have been rooted enough in my faith as a young person to go through that and still pursue Christianity.
@@zacharynelson5731That’s what I heard, too, and I watched an interview with a woman who I assumed was his sister, and she mentioned her brother was a prominent Protestant speaker. Her name is Patty Bonds.
Every night I pray for both Trent Horn and James White, by name. I thank God for Mr Horn and ask God to bless him with continued success in his apologetics. I ask God every night to enlighten Mr White and to bring him into the Church.
@@ninamaelabiste5557I read the Bible every day. I am convinced that the teaching authority of the Church is in scripture. Likewise, I am convinced that the doctrine of purgatory is true.
I’m Protestant. Somebody needs to check on White, this was a really bad performance. I’m not the biggest fan of White, but the brother needs to actually attend to the topic instead of an almost ad hominem attack against Catholicism. The debate is about purgatory, not the Catholic belief of it. And then acts like Horn was the aggressor. Wow, I’m sorry but this is not a proper or reasonable method of debate.
Go ahead and check on him yourself!! What kind of words can you say for him to listen to? Why does he have to listen to you? What authority do you or anyone have for that matter? Protestants do not have any authority whatsoever Blind leading the blind!!!
@@perazdera2827 do you know what doctrine is? It’s teaching that is handed on. To know Christ is to know what he taught and by extension the Apostles and early Church fathers along with the Church. Lack of understanding scripture and the doctrines is a lack of understanding Christ
@@perazdera2827 Better to seek God than try to think you understand Scripture when you don't. You can quote anything you want but it's you who lacks discernment. Remove the log from your own eye before trying to remove the speck in others.
@@perazdera2827 Jesus didn’t begin a Church? Matthew 16:17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." The Church is the body of believers AND there is a physical structure of the Church with priests, bishops and deacons.
Yeah, idk. I'm not a catholic but I don't hate you guys. I hear james' bitter attitude, but I also hear that from plenty of catholics. I think that's a human problem, not a denominational one. Eyes on self, not on God.
@briggy4359 Catholicism is not a denomination!!! It is the essence of Christianity , here it is, a clue for you: Acts 2:5-13 Catholic means universal!!!!
A good friend of mine, evangelical for 26 years, recently became catholic after getting her masters in theology at a Baptist college. She was deeply disappointed in the shallow and contradictory theology she encountered there. She started her degree as a Protestant and graduated a catholic.
@@amysill3815 Maybe just maybe that was yet another of those liberal theological colleges that fails to deliver on the claims they make from the outset? As a former Irish RC (now evangelical) I feel sorry for your friend having crossed over to that side. You can have all of the religion you want in that camp but little of the real Christ and fulfilment that I found elsewhere. And for that, I am eternally grateful to my heavenly Father for my spiritual eyes having been opened.
@amysill3815 John Henry Newman, an anglican minister, vitriolic enemy of the Catholic church studied the catholic "falsehood" , converted to it, became a priest and cardinal an ended up a canonized Saint in 2019 by the church he had formerly hated with all his heart!!!!!
Sam shamoun said that if Trent wins this debate, he’s a rock star! He’s never seen anyone dismantle james white like trent did on the sola scrip debate! I have to agree with sam, excellent performance!
@@gideondavid30 Ok main take aways: Trent got white to admit, sola scriptura wasnt the rule for the church and wasnt possible until after the 4th century when scripture was complete. He refused to give a date for when the church started using it. Later in the q&a, hes asked: when did the traditions of the catholic church start as an authority for the church. He said “2nd century desert fathers!” What an admission! So in Dr. whites own view, catholic traditions are older than sola scriptura but at least 300 years! Again, he couldnt provide a date so that 300 years is as generous as he is being towards his own beliefs! White wanted trent to name some other infallible rule. He immediately said the canon and James had zero defense. James White is a bible scholar that refuses to credit any of the men that assembled the canon as if was an easy task. He refused to give dates, he got stumped on the canon, and tried to bait trent into defending the papacy over half a dozen times!
@@timboslice980 1. O.K. I need a time stamp for when James White admitted that sola scriptura wasn't the rule of faith for the early church. Please provide context to the admission as well. I am fairly certain that Jame's position is that scripture was in oral form first. That doesn't disprove sola scriptura though. This goes to the question of infallibility and what the early church relied on. 2. traditions of the Catholic Church. I need a time stamp. Provide it for me with context. James White's position on tradition is whether it can be proven to be traced to the 1st century or not. 3. How is the canon "some other infallible rule"? The formal of the canon has nothing to do with the debate between sola scriptura and sola ecclesia you do realize this right? 4. You're mistaken. James White does give credit to those who formed the canon, what he doesn't agree with is the notion of church infallibility. Of course the pope is going to be brought up because the entire Roman Catholic faith is built upon that office. All the unique Catholic doctrines found no where in scripture are ushered in through Papal infallibility.
Trent: "I will not be defending various theological opinions about purgatory." James: "Here's what Ludwig Ott wrote about purgatory, and he's wrong if you assume Calvinism."
@zacharynelson5731 you and James White are confuse with regards to an individual vs. the church, or you are too lazy to research how doctrines came to be.
Trent: “I will not be defending various theological opinions about purgatory” Trent: provides mostly his own (or Akin’s) theological opinion about purgatory. Trent’s supporters: Trent is teaching sound theology that has always been the belief of “the church”. Some future apologists: “I will not be defending various theological opinions about Purgatory (Trent’s opinions….Akin’s opinions) That future apologists supporters: This apologist is teaching sound theology that has always been believed by “the church”.
@@donhaddix3770 Your church is not even in the Bible. I don't need to tell u that Church came first before the Bible was even compiled by the undivided Catholic-Orthodox church. Question is, are u even a real Christian to claim such?
During James White’s “opening statement” me and my fiancé were commentating and were saying how that was just a bitter, poorly constructed rebuttal. Glad Trent pointed this out in his first rebuttal. Also ironic how White said Trent was being unpleasant, considering James is usually very arrogant and unpleasant to listen to.
I agree with all your points about James White. He’s a bitter calvinist. Trent’s arguments all boiled down to basically ‘God needs more time’ and ‘somehow your death + something = perfection’ It’s basically James White’s exact position just with a special non-Biblical made-up name.
@@G1stGBlessTrent never said not catholics believe God need more time. This is absolute falsehood. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
James reinterpreted Catholic teaching to mean what he believes it to mean, then criticises his interpretation. Just like Protestants do with the Bible.
@@aadschram5877There are fundamental differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. Anyone who doesn't understand the differences is just ignorant. White's sister doesn't know what she is talking about.
@@gideondavid30 Protestants claiming Catholics worship Mary and statues. Protestants claiming Catholics worship the Pope. There are plenty more strawman arguments like this which the Catholic church does not actually teach but pretended by Prots through misinterpreting Catholic positions based on their own confusion.
James White is not unprepared( double negative), he just cannot find a good argument against the topic. Plus James White's parrot-ish style, speaking without knowing what he talks about very apparent here. In this debate I see white as a fireworks display, while Trent a firing range.
@@echomike8591 I have a perfect argument. Purgatory is impossible if the resurrection of the Saints is true. If all past and present believers are to take part in the resurrection of the Saints " Which happens to everyone who belongs to Christ" , then in no fashion can purgatory be true. It's a logistical impossibility. What really nails the coffin lid shut on purgatory is what happens to those alive in Christ on that day. They are changed in a blink of an eye and gathered to the Lord with the rest of their brothers and sisters. Wait!? Were they not also supposed to go through a purgatory? Kinda strange that no one is serving any type of sentence in that situation isn't it? And it being taught that all purgatory sentences are different sure as heck makes this impossible. Just a thought I have never heard anyone bring up.
@bairfreedom modern day catholics acknowledge Purgatory can happen in a blink of an eye and is event rather than a place. So no it doesn't work plus there is lot of scripture not talked about here that points to purgatory
This is actually hilarious. Trent has spent the whole debate discussing Purgatory and James White has spent the whole debate talking about everything but Purgatory.
@@mattduin7144 like….the reasons he believes purgatory doesn’t exist…? I’m just confused how someone can make a positive argument about something they don’t believe in.
James white was awfully unprepared. Talking smack about Pope Francis, Catholic teaching “changing”, and mentioning other theologians opinions. Instead to address the topic using scripture or even admitting some of Trent Horns points might be true. He relies on “cmon folks , you know how Rome operates, you know they invented this” “I have the proper interpretation of the scriptures” “I am better than any past popes, church fathers, or any other theologian” ……yeah White you lost the debate the moment you started it. Good Job Trent for doing his homework and bring a strong and clear case for Purgatory. Even if there still are Protestants out there who won’t change their mind, at least now they can see where The Church is coming from to declare purgatory to be true with Biblical support.
He was even worse in the Sola Scriptura debate. Both his opening statements have been bad Faith attacks. If you watch the end of the last one, he refused to acknowledge Catholics as a Christian Denomination. I'd argue he was unprepared due to arrogance and bad Faith
@@kevinevans8892 I'm not arguing the doctrine, just the debate practices. I also called Trent out on several comments for being too pushy and interrupting.
@@kevinevans8892 I also don't need Rome to tell me it's true, C.S. Lewis came to the conclusion of purgatory with the Protestant Bible. If he can get that without 2 Maccabees, then it's a logical conclusion from Scripture. I have no reason to doubt him or the Church Fathers on the matter since we're going there.
Unprepared? There’s nothing to prepare for. Purgatory is no where in the Bible and in fact James White was actually being nice in not just coming out and destroying Trent with actual Biblical passages.
@@Garry_Combinetheir first debate was about if a Christian can lost their salvation. Their 2nd debate was about Sola Scriptura (Bible alone) and this video is their third debate about Purgatory.
@@corydittman4639 Cory, no Christian today is free of following tradition. We are all handed down the tradition we know. Every denomination is a "tradition" of interpretation and authoritative teaching. Protestantism did not solve this problem. The question is is the tradition a Sacred one passed down to us by Jesus. Here's a question - where is the commandment in the Bible that says that if you disagree with the Church you can start a new one? When the Bible clearly states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.
@@PatrickSteil There is no CHURCH as you are trying to use the word. Christ wrote to CHURCHES. Paul and Peter visited Churches. Church is the body of Christ. RCC is not part of it.
To be fair last June 2023 I had a “near death experience”.I have seen my soul infront of me in shape of blazing fire. When I was in that state, all I felt was regret and questioned myself “what I have done to myself” but at the same time I dont find any reason why I need to go back to this present world. In terms of purgatory, I was in this place that seems like I was lying on a glass and under it was fire. It wasnt painful at all but I am suffering because there was a light, like a tunnel’ infront of me and I know thats where I am supposed to be going but I couldnt go. I am suffering because of my desire to be there but I couldnt. Then I heard the voice of a female voice that I recognized to be Mary and she told me to PRAY! PRAY! PRAY! I was comforted.
Thank you for sharing this. Look into ‘Illumination of Conscience”, aka The Warning. I think it might happen soon. But you are blessed to already have a preview. Let us all PRAY PRAY PRAY as Mama Mary says.
That's crazy talk. You had a dream, that's all. Stop making stuff up. You need to get out more. Socialize, exercise and eat healthy. Sleep enough hours and most importantly seek mental health therapy.
One thing about most of these debates with informed interlocutors. I wish that the question would be asked "why do you think your opponent isn't seeing what you are seeing?" He has the same data as you. Also in the same vein. "You could be wrong what could be preventing you from seeing that?" It just seems like an interesting thought experiment.
Good questions, but somewhat hard to answer. I would guess Trent might identify presuppositions about sanctification and justification that James holds that Trent would argue are flawed, and James would say the same about Trent, perhaps adding that he doesn't believe that Trent honestly reached his presuppositions on his own but because "Rome told him he has to accept them."
No protestant is guided by the Holy Spirit, therefore the amount of data they have amounts to piles of vain information. Conversely, the Holy Spirit dwells in the catholic church since 33AD!!!
@@abiecader Your degrees and PhD. do not count before God! Peter a simple fisherman, was chosen by God as the first pope!!! Peter ordained Apostles, baptized pagans and dictated doctrine infallibly!!! God confirmed his decision!! No PhD needed!!!
@@davido3026 With respect. Your response has taken me by surprise? By the way, I agree with you 100%. I am Catholic, I will defend the faith. I made some comments, and was challenged by one or two protestants and atheist ask me to substantiate why I say what I said. As I said, if the doctrine of the Church is being challenged and I am asked to defend it, I will do so, which I did by offering a rebuttal. Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee.
@@abiecader PhD lmao, he's got one from Columbia Evangelical Seminary, an unaccredited online school. He's not a real Doctor of Theology (or Doctor of anything for that matter).
I find it Ironic that a calvinists keeps quoting," this is doctrine developed over time." Calvin was in the 1500's. 2000 years after the Crucifixion of Christ.
It's not that hard to understand the protestant position. Let's stop parroting around false narratives about fellow believers in Christ. The reformers purpose was to bring the Church back to the original teachings of the gospel. Remember Luther was excommunicated by the catholic church. Luther's goal was not to create a "new church".
As a protestant, there a lot of catholic doctrines that I can't quite accept but, judging by the comment section and by Trent's opening I think I can look forward to one of them getting knocked of the list today.
@@maciejpieczula631 I'm not sure. I've gone from previously scoffing at the idea to thinking that it could definitely be a thing. I don't think I'll ever believe in indulgences or even a temporal aspect but I've definitely broadened my perspective.
@@josepharballo601 For one thing, "today" might not be literal: some translations of Acts 2:31 seem to indicate that Jesus spent the three days in hell and it would defeat the purpose of such sacrifice for Him to also be in heaven with the thief on that specific day. For another, assuming what Trent said is correct about purgatory being simply a purification process between death and heaven (and necessarily a physical place), the process could take literally no time at all.
@@theskyisteal8346 "Jesus spent the three days in hell " Keep in mind, any part of the day was considered a "day." Peter is clear regarding Jesus and where he went. *18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,* 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Pet 3) Strongs Greek 3857 for reference paradeisos: a park, a garden, a paradise Original Word: παράδεισος, ου, ὁ Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: paradeisos Phonetic Spelling: (par-ad'-i-sos) Usage: Paradise. 3.*that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43, cf. 16:23f.* But some (e. g. Dillmann (as below, p. 379)) understand that passage of the heavenly paradise.
White can consistently interrupt Horn and Horn allows him to finish, but when Trent does that White won’t let horn finish and has to make a dig a horn lol. Trent you won!
Obviously in some sense we accept God..created black holes with docility. We won't demand evidence how it came to exist , evidence from God. But this is different. I reject purgatory. As I reject the rapture. Because there in my ignorance I cannot see evidence for both. But recently I've heard of "bi location" which I guess God allows souls from purgatory to manifest or God manifests them on earth in the human world. So yeah but they could come from hell or heaven. So I still reject purgatory. But if it's truth that Christ preached or his word preaches then I'll accept purgatory. Of course I want to know does this place exist regardless wether I personally view it or never view it? Yes it does as does God. But I certainly do yearn to accept it I just can't do so with docility. However Mr.wjife would definitely fail not "convincing me" only Providing evidence so I can pour time into believing it as to praying for God to show me it's true.
Is the Bible not the word of God? Is Jesus Chris is a liar? You are not a Christian if you believe in Catholic rituals and historical beliefs over the word of God. Luke 23:33-43 (LSB): The Crucifixion 33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” AND THEY CAST LOTS, DIVIDING UP HIS GARMENTS AMONG THEMSELVES. 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were scoffing at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.” 36 And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!” 38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.” 39 And one of the criminals hanging there was blaspheming Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for what we have done; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
I actually was very confused. I am a former Catholic. Always heard Purgatory the way White explained it, and was confused by Trents take. Also Matthew 5 has nothing about purgatory.
@chanano1689 as a recovering Catholic, I can confirm the Bible does not mention Purgatory or Catholics anywhere. Those were terms made by man, hundreds of years after Christ's death!
@@Sola_Scriptura_1.618I agree. I think the Scriptures that were used by Trent where extremely weak, and no where else in Scripture will we use the same mode of interpretation. I think they are just coping at this moment.
I've struggled previously with a defense for purgatory, perhaps because I did not comprehend fully myself. This is the clearest description and defense of purgatory that I've seen. Great job Trent!
Everyone sins even after becoming Christian. This problem needs addressing at the end of the day. Catholics came up with the concept of purgatory to have the final cleansing of imperfection of a person. Since, protestants rejects this idea, they have to come up with the concept with the doctrine of imputation of Christ's righteousness. This is simple, for protestants : Jesus Christ, you took upon yourself my sins on the cross and therefore we must exchange my sins with your righteousness by default.
This might be a clear presentation but it is a faulty one. He uses a brand new and unique theory of the interpretation of the Corinthian passage that is clearly not correct, neither Protestants nor Catholic scholars interpret that passage that way today or have so in the past. We would have never known that fact if not for the cross examination. I have watched Trent debate numerous times and he does this over and over. As a debater, Trent is one of the best I have seen, very smooth and convincing but he hides unique and one of a kind interpretations all the time.
The power of the confessional is for the priests authority over the laity. Catholics have a insufferable sense of guilt throughout their journey. Luther was so obsessive about his sins,he was without any insurance regarding his sins were forgiven.
So many Protestants (like me when I was one) are adamant that the Bible says nothing about purgatory. Trent does an amazing job in his first couple minutes laying out why that's not the case. Maybe the strongest point, which many didn't catch, is that the word "gehenna" was an actual Jewish image of something almost identical to purgatory. Your Bible probably just says "hell" to translate that word, and maybe it refers to a permanent state at times, but the word used was Gehenna. The book Trent cites is by Simcha Raphael, Jewish Views of the Afterlife, I believe. I spoke with Raphael, a very kind man, and he laid out this very issue for me 2 years ago. He said in Jesus' time, the view of the afterlife was that most went to Gehenna to be purged for a time before going to Gan Eden (heaven). He did say that some saw this as a destruction into ashes or as eternal torment, and, oddly, many of the sources used all three views together, like almost everybody gets out, but some are tormented forever, but as the others leave, the dust and ashes from those who were there permanently were on their sandles. Soon after Christ, the Jewish belief on Gehenna solidified into it being a maximum 12-month process of cleansing, so not even the most evil was there permanently or annihilated. This is why Jews consider it wrong to mourn your parents for more than 11 months, because you'd be dishonoring them by assuming they had the maximum amount of evil to be cleansed. All that to say, if the Bible says Gehenna, rather than just apply your modern understanding of the word, tainted by centuries of various theological opinion, it's important to consider what the word meant to Jesus' audience. They would have heard something much more like purgatory than hell, or maybe a place/state that had potential to be either. So saying "it's not in the Bible" is not true.
Now if you are catholic if you are not orthodox and roman.cathiloc than you are considered to be a heretic based on history. Orthodox real catholic church
1:23 James: "The term 'unpleasant' doesn't-isn't relevant" Trent: "okay, well, In Heb 12 it says 'for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant...'" James: '"If you want to use that term... I would never preach a sermon using that term.." Trent: "I'm sorry you won't preach what the Bible says." 🤣 A cheeky side of Trent rarely seen. White didn't like the taste of a classic Protestant polemic.
I thought it was interesting when James White said, "that's a cheap shot and you know it and everybody in the room knows it!" It's interesting because James does the same thing quite often, just watch any of his debates and you'll find this tactic being employed, I kinda feel like it would be hard to find a debate from anyone where this doesn't happen, it's in my opinion just a fun, lighthearted way of poking at your opponent. Maybe James White didn't like it because he read Mark Twain say, "There's more truth in jest!!" Great debate Trent I thought you're opening statement was awesome, thanks and God bless you
Trent was correct when he pointed out that White didn’t make an opening statement. A test for this is that if you edited the video and switched the order would it be coherent? In whites case no it wouldn’t. Also, what’s funny is I believe in both a debate with Bart Ehrman many years ago and another debate with a Muslim apologist Both Ehrman and the Muslim did the same thing; where they went second but gave a rebuttal instead of an opening statement. And White called them out on it both times.
I have never heard White bring up personal issues of someone's family, and then use it as a debate cheap shot. You should be ashamed for lying. Repent.
I love that White was the one that chose to debate purgatory (Trent wanted to debate Sola Scriptura) and yet White didn’t even prepare an opening statement.
I ask this seriously; Is James OK? He seems really frazzled and irritated. I thought Trent was very charitable, but James seemed ready to fight and his arguments were all over the place. I usually like listening to James White in these debates, but this felt like he was very off.
I think he decided long ago that he does not want purgatory to be true, so therefore he will not accept any argument for its reality. Therefore he was very unprepared for when he came into this debate.
I picked up the same that James is frazzled. Also check his ears turning red… Trent however is very composed. Holds good argument. We also have to accept if a Protestant accept that there is purgatory obliterates sola scriptura argument.
You apparently watched the wrong debate 😂... Trent was the one who was irritated and nasty. Trent even admitted this... Next time, lay off the booze before tou comment
So the other day, a Protestant preacher was talking about premarital sex. He was trying to tell the crowd not to worry or feel guilty if that was a sin they committed because they were forgiven if they asked Jesus to forgive them. But then he also went on to explain the emotional consequences of having premarital sex without commitment and the pain that comes after a breakup and the issues you have to deal with in future relationships due to your past sins. He was giving an argument for purgatory. Of course, you can be forgiven in Christ, but sin has temporal consequences.
@@johnnotrealname8168 We should definitely feel guilt to some degree, but we can be washed of that guilt because of Jesus; namely, through the sacrament of reconciliation AKA confession
James is a great entertainer thats why some people think he got the upper hand in this debate but he did not give any evidence for his beliefs. Thank you James for turning people into the True Church, The Catholic Church
So true. Thank you James White because of your attitude towards our Catholic Faith draw a lot of people to dig deep to find out the truth that Our Lord Jesus founded the Holy Catholic church. May The Holy Spirit softens your heart that you will truly love God and love people. Less arrogant and more friendly to respect our Catholic faith.
If James White can't be bothered to create slides presenting his own argument in a cogent manner, how much time and consideration do you really think he gave to his argument rather than being an anti-Catholic reactionary?
@@gideondavid30Then there's no excuse for not being prepared. If he's been doing it for years he would have everything he needs and instead looks like an unprepared high school student with no material.
@david30 it's not about "doing this for years"; because so has Trent Horn lol. And it's not about knowing his arguments, it's about presenting it with visualization for his audience. He just didn't show consideration like @p.doetsch6209 said.
How often do high level debates include slides? Just because Trent did something that you prefer doesn’t mean White was lazy. Slides are not common in formal debate.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303The slides are symbolic. His entire presentation was lacking in coherency and substance. The slides were the least of it but demonstrate his lack of understanding for theological and technological preparedness.
I wear the brown scapular and was surprised when White brought that up in his closing statement. The thing White said about the brown scapular and his assumption on the reasons why Catholic wearing are to me, almost identical to the way an atheist judge Christianity on things he completely misunderstood. Turns out, he is well informed with knowledge but completely lack the understanding of the essence. Seems like that exactly the case with our protestant friends.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 The scapulars (all, not just the brown) are small versions of a specific religious orders habit. The brown scapular is the small version of the Carmelite habit. The Carmelite order and spirituality were very popular during the middle ages so I believe this is the reason it is so popular. Not to mention its generally just seen as a great devotion to Mary. The origin of the Scapular is said to have been given to St. Simon Stock by the Virgin Mary, however I don't think this is true and seems to be mostly fabricated. Regardless the Sabbatine privilege is not true *in and of itself*. Wearing the scapular and saying the rosary every day won't save you. But it will definitely help us get closer to God, which brings us closer to Heaven.
White saying that theologians today use different words of phrasings to describe a particular doctrine than how a theologian 50, 100, or 1000 years ago, therefore the doctrine is “changing” and therefore false is a bad argument and pretty ironic. Because I doubt he would accept a Muslim apologist arguing that because the English used in a 1611 translation of the Bible is different than English in common usage today 400 years later is different, it means that the text of the Bible has been “changed” and is therefore false.
If people opened their eyes to see how much blessings God is giving to all of us, i would say especially Catholics, in confessions, eucharist adoration, and all in all in relationship with him.. they wouldn't dare to hate so strong
Trent even went out of his way to specify that he was arguing the basics of purgation that even some Protestants believe but James can't help but pull the "Catholic bad" card.
I noticed this pattern when I was becoming a catholic. If you filter out the ad hominem and genetic fallacies from Protestant arguments; what usually remains has very little actual substance
Opening remark recap: 1) Trent: CCC definition, Bible citations, deductive argumentation, parallels with Malachi 3, non Catholic scholars , cites Calvin himself, early church fathers all in a PowerPoint presentation 2) James: references he doesn't believe the Pope believes this, the dogma was clearer during the reformation, ~ 10mins on indulgences, rebuts the 1cor citation , a claim is made Catholics in their belief in purgatory cannot have peace. Reminder: The debate is on if the doctrine of purgatory is true
@@gideondavid30 no problem. Trent formulated an extensive positive argument for and James was mostly saying he disagreed and pointed to other things without addressing Trent's arguments. You could be atheist and at least acknowledge Trent was more prepared and James's arguments left you wanting . That's all
@@gideondavid30What’s the problem? Trent pointed out the problem at the beginning of his rebuttal. Instead of giving an opening statement to support his view, James just gave a very poor rebuttal.
You did hear a real debate. White undermined the essential doctrine of purgatory from the get go. Either you didn’t understand the argument or purgatory. White made him admit he was interpreting the Corinthian passage in a unique way (neither Protestant or Catholic scholars interpret the passage that way) in order to get biblical proof for his stance. The other passages cited by Horn didn’t support purgatory,.
@TJMcCarty 👆 Being a smooth-talker OR being a hostile, arrogant attacker-debater proves what ? Catechism is a poor, inaccurate replacement for Scripture. There’s no good reason at all for GOD’s Living to be replaced. None. Faulty source (catechism) leads to faulty belief (purgatory) of a faulty religion (catholicism). This debate isn’t a Sports competition. The only “winner” is anyone who “gets” GOD’s truth. The only “loser” is anyone who is lost without truth. Holy Spirit, spirit of truth & wisdom is needed to discern. Seek Truth. Truth = Christ. Seek Christ. ⚔️ Truth v Deception = Spiritual War⚔️ “Watch out no one deceives you. For many will come in my name claiming ‘I am the Christ’ and will deceive many.”
Purgatory was one of the easiest Church doctrines to accept because it lines up with the sense of justice we're given and particularly from a more OSAS evangelical environment, it makes sense of many passages. Like how can your sins be covered by doing good works if you're already saved, and how will you be punished for sin if you're already saved?
@@BlakeRatliff-h8b But what if you are no longer in Christ? Even ignoring the unforgiving servant pr the fact that you can be a part of the true vine and still be cut off, there are people who were in Christ who then fell away. Paul also uses language that leads to this conclusion where faith is like a race you must run to the end lest having been in Christ you falter at the end
@@BlakeRatliff-h8b And? We believe in that. Some _are_ predestined, and the faithlessness of man does not negate the faithfulness of Christ. He won't lose anyone through his own actions. People disqualify themselves through their own sin. You do realize John talks about mortal sin, right? That is sin that makes you lose salvation. You find the same language throughout the old testament where the point is despite the destiny of Israel as a whole, people could stray, but it was not God abandoning them it was the other way around
@@TheThreatenedSwanSo ultimately, God is not powerful enough to save me from my sin. It's ultimately up to my strength and my power to save myself. So I am equal to God then in power. Right?
Trent, great job! I was there both nights, with my Catholic convert friend and my Church of Christ preacher friend (I know, it sounds like the start of joke 😄). We all agreed you were the clear "winner" in this Purgatory debate. You got James White *thisclose* to admitting a postmortem purification; in fact, I'd say that he did admit it.
He was only a winner in your eyes, because you guys are still blinded, and still in your sin, because you have not been regenerated and born again you’re still blind, and a slave to sin🤷♀️😞
Not sure if you have any understanding however Trent only proved he follows a religions doctrine not scripture. 97% of his observation is from catholic doctrine.. following Jesus is the road to heaven. not the road to purgatory.
@@Pastor-BraulioFFL-NYit’s like you didn’t watch the debate. He quoted scripture. And the only claim he made about purgatory (what it is) was that it was a purification process. But what you fundamentally do not understand (because you like to straw man the Catholic position) is that there is no purgatory without the promise of Heaven. And no one cares to require purification in the next life. But you just assume Catholics look forward to purgatory. We do not.
42:36 “Purgatory” by Fr Schouppe does contain the doctrinal teachings on purgatory at the beginning of the book; but the vast majority of the book falls under what Trent was talking about at the beginning of the debate about “speculations” on purgatory; given that what Fr Schouppe uses as sources are stories from the saints which fall under private revelation.
I never can understand why so many Protestant preachers spend so much time studying and denying the Catholic Faith. Why if Catholics are wrong then why do they care!!!!! And in history how many Protestants have returned to the Catholic Church after studying the Church teaches.
They care for the same reason Catholics study Protestant positions: to help people come into the what they believe is the fullness of truth and God’s plan for their life. Especially if you’re a Protestant who thinks Catholicism has a false gospel and thus Catholics essentially need to convert for the first time
@@stormchaser9738 I am very studied Catholic and have never studied Protestant doctrine because I would rather spend my time learning more about my Faith to come to the fullness of truth then live that truth as an example to non-believers. Because as St Robert Bellarmine said and encourages us to say everyday. "I believe all the truths taught by the Catholic Church" An effective way to fight off the devil in times of temptation. I have never heard James White talk about what he believes just what is wrong with what the Catholic Church teaches. St John Henry Newman came to the Church by reading Catholic teachings to prove it was wrong and came to the realization that the Catholic Church was correct and is the one true catholic and apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ. Maybe in time James White and others will receive the same grace and return to the fold.
They care Because Protestantism only holds if Catholicism is false Problem For protestors is they now have over 40k different denominations protesting each other An absolute mess
this was very telling, james white argued everything but the actual statement being argued over James white never actually rebutted anything trent said, never proposed an argument all he did was dodge topics and hand wave
James Whites main strategy is to simply sound convincingly. Make it SOUND like his own position is so orthodox and Trent is just following some weird old traditions of men. But When looking at scripture, history and the argumentative strength itself without the rhetoric and Blabla, it’s clear that Trent doesn’t just win, he pulls the rug out from under James Whites feet . He’s got no foundation to stand on other than his Protestant man made traditions
Except that Trent admitted his interpretation was unique and one of a kind. James explained the passage to Trent several times and Trent just glibly talked over it.
YES. This debate was so troubling to hear. We have been saved by FAITH, and NOT BY WORKS, so that no one should boast! What Christ did on the cross was sufficient enough! The whole Old Testament was building up to this moment of His death! We were sacrificed by Christ, why would we need further sanctification! Why would God send His son, but only give us a portion of the sanctification, and expect us to do the rest? THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WAS ENOUGH! If we are rejecting this notion or twisting the idea, then we suddenly become like all of the other false religions out there that focus on works, and spend their whole life ‘working’ to get into Paradise, and then forget to have a relationship with the one true God at all! This is what happened with the poor Jewish people.. they became SO obsessed about all the Mosaic laws that they forgot to actually seek a relationship with YAHWEH. Our works are filthy rags, we will never be good enough. Even if we could lead a sinless life, we would still be stained with sin because of the fall. CHRIST YESHUA PAID IT ALL! Thank you God for making THE WAY for us, and giving us your Son. I bless everyone in the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. God bless everyone, and ask for God to protect your heart from false teachings and to allow His truth to always be made apparent to you. ✝️✝️✝️
@@carrie_k Hi Carrie Thanks for your answer. I belive that the sacrifice of Christ was enough to save us, I would even say that one drop of His blood would have been enough to save all of humanity. However I also belive that we are commanded to love Good and our neighbour and love requires works. For exmple would a wife belive her husband when he tells her, I love you, but then he never helps her in any way?
@@carrie_k Matthew 7:21-23 Text: • 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” • 22 “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’” • 23 “And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” So right here Jesus is saying unless you do the will of my father. What is the will? Is that works or belief? He also says depart from me you workers of lawlessness. What does lawlessness means? Someone who doesn’t obey laws. So you need to do the will of the father and obey the laws which are works.
I'm genuinely surprised at how bad James White is at debating. It's like he doesn't do any preparation at all and only has a surface level understanding of the topic.
Trent you rock! James likes to throw out little off topic side jabs at the Catholic faith... one liners delivered with malice. No evidence of charity in his version of Christ
I’m a recent convert to Catholicism from a reformed Baptist background, and as soon as I heard a Catholic explain purgatory I was like “Oh, well I’ve always believed that.” And it immediately stopped being a hinderance to my conversion.
The AoMin yt channel doesnt have open comments on most or any of its videos. Some RU-vidrs dont, who just choose not to devote time and attention to that.
Great job, Trent! After my heart attack (and as a practicing, devout, cradle Catholic), I decided to learn much more deeply about my faith. You have REALLY helped me in my depth of knowledge and this closer to God!
Really? He is using a one of kind interpretation of Corinthians in order to justify purgatory, and the only reason we found out is because James, after explaining three times what the passage means, finally went through the passage in detail and found out what Trent did. Note, this was a unique interpretation from both a catholic and protestant perspective.
Dear@@coloradodutch7480, using 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 as a reference to Purgatory is a common Biblical text in Catholic circles. It seems so clear. The "unique interpretation" was talking about a book that spoke of the "works" that are tested by fire, as the converts made by the pastors described in the first part of the chapter. And it was just an interesting proposition.
I can save you two hours; this idea of purgatory contradicts scripture. Not to mention you have to take scripture out on context to even come up with this idea in purgatory.
You know I would rather believe that there is a purgatory. Here's why, I have family members that had a drug addiction problem and ended up dying from drug abuse. They had been baptized and had a strong belief in God, but they just couldn't shake the addiction. One who is an addict will do just about anything to get drugs but not go to church or turn to God for help because of their shame. So I find comfort in believing they made it to purgatory and that they are being cleansed before entering heaven, rather than to believe they were damned. I would hope that any protestant that has dealt with this type of loss or even losing a loved one to suicide would also hope the same for their loved ones and not just think that they went to hell. That would be a pain I would not be able to easily move forward from. Praying for our hearts to willfully be evangelized by the traditions of the church and the word of God with one faith and one teaching. In Christ our Lord. Amen
It's not that White's presentation was bad - which it was - but it was more that his entire approach to the debate was utterly wrongheaded, in that he tried too hard to speak like a pastor. That is, I think he counted on his rhetorical skills to save him in this debate, which they clearly did not. Also concerning were the many times I feel "the real James White" burst out. Comments like, "fangs out," and, "that was a cheap shot and you know it and everyone in the audience knows it too," as though JW has never done any such thing. I couldn't help but notice, too, all the rude and immature little expressions on JW's face whenever Trent was speaking. Take note, and ask yourself if that's the behavior of someone "who understands who The Blessed Man is"?
@@TheJason909 What James White called a cheap shot. When Trent said “you don’t preach what the bible says” James called it a cheap shot. Then in James whites closing statement he said something along the lines of Biblical Christianity vs Catholicism
If Catholicism is wrong, then Christ’s promise went unfulfilled and his prophecy failed. If Catholicism is wrong, Christianity is false and we have no business bothering with any of this.
The message of GOD is not about religion. Comparing Catholicism to the promise of the messaiah is wrong. If you are considering Catholicism as the promise, then you completely ignore the other one, Judaism. If you cannot understand the way and concept of GOD then you will end up in a religious belief. And to go by your understanding, it seems like for you the promise of messaiah is only a religion called Catholicism. Then what about Judaism ? It all started in Judaism. What do you call such Jews from Judaism who have believed in the promise of the messaiah? God did not create a religion. God just has one thing, that is His only way. Then men changed that. Men begin to create religion out of the GOD way. This was done due to men's desire for their own wants and needs. They could not accept GOD's true way and begin to create their own way & doctrines. If you really want to get to know GOD, one must understand what Jesus said when He left this earth , He has sent the Helper. Most Christian has only the first part . I.e. the Helper is with them but not the second part. I.e. in them. Most Christian does not have the Holy Spirit in them but just with them. He is a stranger. So a Christian who does not know the Holy Spirit is nothing but the same as being a worldly person. Further, to understand GOD wisdom, we must enter the new way of Worshipping like the apostle Paul preached. We are to come to the new way of living in Spirit. Then you will understand between GOD wisdom and men's knowledge. Do what the apostle commanded in Romans 12:1-2. Otherwise we will only be a religious person rather than a godly man. These two are different. A religious man is a slave to his religion. But a godly man has freedom of grace and is free to truly listen to the Helper.
Christianity is not Catholicism, Roman Catholicism has Roman origins, some of which are pagan, Christianity is actually the love of God which was manifest to the world through his Son Jesus Christ, John 3:16
@@adammatemba1207nope most Protestants say that because they don't like second temple judiasm or like taking some verses literially they take metaphorically etc.
I think the best reason to believe in this doctrine is that the Jews did and still believe in praying for and to people who have passed on. And the fact that there is support for purgatory in Maccabees. "You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews." *[John 4:22]* Our Lord did not break away from Judaism; he fulfilled its prophesies and completed it. The line protestants often use to argue against purgatory is almost always reworded and misstated the same way they jumble around the straightforward message of The Epistle of James. They often say as White did in this debate, that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." But this is not what that passage says. 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. *[2 Corinthians 5:8-9]* The passage as reworded by White is not the same as it appears in the scriptures. He has changed the words around so that it fits with his beliefs. Also, if being absent from the body means one was present with the Lord, why then does the very next passage state that we must labour whether absent or present in the body? It wasn't until I started watching the How to Be Christian channel that I realized how often White and Durbin change scriptures like this. I'm glad Trent called White out on this, but I wish he would have pressed him a bit more.
Are you under the impression that the scripture you provided means we labour when we are absent from the body? Interesting. It says, “wherefore we labour”….this seems to be present tense. “That”….this seems to mean…so that, or so then “Whether present or absent”….this seems to say whatever state we will be in…future tense… “We may be accepted of Him”….again…in that future state. How, exactly, are YOU interpreting this? Better yet, has “the church” interpreted this? Or was your post your own private interpretation?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 You know... You are correct about that specific passage. It does not say what I thought it did. Or at least, I need to research [2 Corinthians 5:9] more. With that said, it does not change the fact that [2 Corinthians 5:8] - the previous passage - does not say that there is no purgatory. It does not say what James says it does, and protestants usually use that faulty interpretation against the teaching of purgatory. As an aside, [2 Corinthians 5:9] "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." is against faith alone.
Good job Trent. Trent brought many biblical texts to the table - many from the Old Testament James did 2 things. 1. Ridiculed the Catholic faith - (ridiculing is a Protestant thing since they have nothing constructive to say and deny what the bible says) 2. Would engage only in discussing one bible text, everything else was rubbished
Seems like White just says many words, speaking in circles, adding Greek for no reason. 👀 Horn, however, was clear and direct in his delivery and got right to the point.
45 minutes in and James White is completely outmatched, he’s rude and disrespectful, he is indeed offering scoffing as arguments but then has the gall to act like Horns criticism of his behavior is a shot across the bow and Horn is turning the debate to an uncivil tone. No Mr White it is you and your snide tone throughout the entire discussion. I am a Protestant that’s starting to lean towards Catholicism White is certainly helping me with my decision.
Were you even watching the video? Trent's snide response about White's opening statement said a great deal about his attitude being ungracious. It simply wasn't warranted on any level. I saw no disrespect from White but plenty from Horn and some quite weak debating methodology. A later response from Horn was full of deflections and lacking any scriptural weight including an irrelevant comment about Luther and the church they were in and its belief about baptism etc.
I do think that White has a point that we should not shy away from Ott and Denzinger. Simply saying they aren’t the Catechism doesn’t mean they aren’t two preeminent resources for Catholic teaching. We should be defending them in a debate and not retreating from them. That said, Trent did a good job in the debate and I think made a convincing argument.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 56:47 James White says “too be absent from the body is to be present with the lord” trying to quote 2 Corinthians 5:8-9 to prove his point, this is a lazy paraphrase at best and at worst it is making up his own scriptures to align with his beliefs and stating them as if he is quoting the Bible.
@@wezelofone ”we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.“ 2 Corinthians 5:8 2 locations are mentioned here….is there a 3rd that I’m missing?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 the question was about James misquoting scripture to better align with his personal beliefs. You asked for an example, I provided one, in this very video, that you are commenting on.
@@wezelofone right. I’m trying to ascertain how his paraphrase or rewording of that scripture is so far off base from its original meaning I’m trying to understand how the meaning would be significantly different had he quoted the scripture exactly, since that seems to be the issue at hand from your response.
James White nailed it with his opening. Purgatory is an extra-atonement. Jesus said it is "finished" and he didn't say to the criminal at his crucifixion, "today you will go to purgatory and I'll see you later".
It is indeed an ill-inteded nickname that started being used around the 16th century by protestants to belittle the universal authority of the Catholic Church [so they could "justify" their existence and their man-made churches]. But you stay strong and pray for them, brother. God Bless. The Catholic Church has many rites, all of them beautiful and legit.
All Catholics are Roman Catholics. Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”
I'm a Latin Rite/Roman Catholic too but hearing them generalize us all as roman catholics is just so cringy most especially I have other friends who are from different rites of the Catholic Church. Like dude there is a reason why we are THE Universal Church.
I’m very grateful for both James and Trent continuing the dialogue between Catholic and Protestant believers. This is so edifying for the entire global church! 😊
You should have pressed James on the issue of forgiveness of sins: Why would Jesus bestow on the Apostles this unique power, if all sins were "automatically" forgiven just by one's intellectual act of faith? How do you get your sins forgiven, mr James?
The key to understanding the meaning of John 20:23 lies in the previous two verses: “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them. As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36). Assuming you believe and are filled with The Holy Spirit, you have the authority to tell a person if they are under condemnation if they reject Christ. You also have the authority to tell a person they are saved based on their profession of faith and remind then that they are under no condemnation in Jesus Christ. The disciples represent us as a body... not just limited to a select priesthood. 1 Peter 2:9 says, "You are a royal priesthood and a priestly kingdom," and Revelation [5:10], "Through your blood you have made us into priests and kings." If a selected priesthood limited to only a handful of priests that forgive sins is true, these passages are incorrect. The disciples never desired to take the seat of Christ and priests who act as a mediator before God are anti-Christ. They take glory from The One who came to make a way and is THE ONLY way to The Father. Not a priest forgiving you. The levitical priesthood would point to Christ being our Great High Priest. The only one who can atone for your sins.
@@ElloSheerio Jesus didn't say "go and tell others whether they're free from sin or not", but "if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained", so he have them the power to forgive sins, not just to state a fact. He also gave them authority to teach, baptize, anoint and heal. And we know from Jesus himself that the miracle of forgiveness is greater than that of healing a leper. As to the priesthood - if Jesus is the High Priest, there should also be other priests (Cohens) and servers (Levites), and then the laity. Our universal priesthood relates to our ability and obligation to intercede for others before God, which also includes intercession of the saints in Heaven. But it's not the same thing as intercession of the priest who represents Christ himself. The laity have no authority to forgive sins or to celebrate the Eucharist. Even Saint Mary doesn't have it, though she's the greatest of all creation. Please don't try being wiser than the 1990 years old Church. Only Peter received the Keys of the Kingdom and the authority to guard it against error. Neither Luther nor Calvin, nor any other self-proclaimed pastor has any authority.
At about 1 hr and 14, Trent Horn literally makes his case on the assumption that Paul was mistaken about the Day of the Lord. Peter, the supposedly first pope and founder of the catholic church, said at the end of 2 Peter that Paul teaches things that are hard to understand, to which the UNEDUCATED and UNRULY twist to their own error, as they do the other scriptures. Meaning, Peter considered everything Paul wrote to be legit. Thus, to claim Paul got something wrong is to claim Peter got it wrong about Paul. No matter your feelings toward James White, Trent lost with that statement. The statement completely undermines the foundation of the Catholic church he is trying to defend.
It’s so refreshing to watch two intelligent individuals have a respectful debate (without interrupting one another like children)… This is truly edifying to my brain. Trent did a wonderful job representing a position which I wholeheartedly disagree with, while James did an excellent job representing a position which I do not wholeheartedly agree with. Brilliant- it’s great to see two individuals have a good dual with no hard feelings on a personal level.
That's what I was thinking because I know Mike is aware of the videos that Trent makes in response to his videos. There was once a time that I would watch Mike for hours back when I was Protestant. It was Mike's attitude that first made me see the anti-catholicism in myself (that was based on nothing but ignorance) Now when I hear Mike speak about Catholicism I hear nothing but anger and sarcasm. He tries to come across as extremely confident in his position but I think it speaks volumes if he isn't willing to debate. This is where I have to give James some credit for at least trying.
Had the joy of seeing this in person and meeting Trent. Suffice to say, he is extremely intellectual and introvertedly extroverted as well.😂 All jokes aside, Trent won in my book and it was a lot of fun.
I’m surprised to see so many saying Trent won. I’m Muslim and we have a similar belief to purgatory but I can say Mr. White won. I think many people’s decision was influenced by Trent’s strong opening statement which influenced their opinion for the rest of the debate
@@cantrait7311 good try, but that’s not how that works. I can acknowledge a persons IQ and quick wit without believing they hold the correct position. I do it all the time, because the world is full of people who are smart and believe wild things.
What parent is this that would let their child do evil and when confronted by their parent, the Child would say, "you can't punish me, because Christ died for my sins" So, they let him go unpunished? Or what judge, would let the criminal go unpunished, because the criminal said to the judge, "you cant punish me, because, Christ paid the price for my sins? Indeed, Christ did pay the price for their sins, nonetheless, there is still temporal punishment due to the sinner, though he may be saved. Why was King David punished for his sins of having Uriah murdered and Adultery with Bathsheba? Wasn't Christ's sacrifice enough? Why does Paul say, God is not mocked, you reap what you sow to the Christians? .
James White does not come across as someone who has peace in Jesus Christ. He comes across as bitter, angry, and condescending. It makes it hard for me to listen to him. I hope that he does find peace in Jesus Christ.
He’s probably so disgusted by professing christians who obliterate the text and don’t base their beliefs on the supreme authority of scripture. Still seemed fairly graceful in light of the ridiculous beliefs presented here.
@@danielwhite8168 So it’s OK to be rude and condescending to people you disagree with? Is that where Sola Scriptura leads? Is that the message of Jesus?
Trent, you killed it. Excellent composure, excellent citing of primary sources, and excellent calling out/illuminating James' constant refusal to answer the most basic questions and adherence to the format. You're a seasoned debater and it really shows. Not trying to insult James, but he came off insecure and constantly tried to appeal to emotion waving books around instead of using primary sources to substantiate his claims.
At some point, we have to stop taking James White as a serious apologist. These debates were completely embarrassing for him. Juvenile, stale intellect.
His debates from many years ago against people like Bart Ehrman or Muslim apologists or members of the LDS church were pretty good from what I remember. But you’re right. I mean this as charitably as possible but White is not a young man anymore and it seems like his mind is beginning to slip.
@@zacharynelson5731 His debate with Ehrman was terrible he just kept ranting about postmodernism, bringing up the Quran and saying that low error rates in medieval copying by trained copyists mean that the copying of the oldest manuscripts must be likewise even though it was done by amateurs.
I saw some of the debate on the channel of the church this was hosted in, but I could not find it later. I'm glad this video exists in case the original was taken off or privatized on RU-vid.
James did a great job trying to give a clear picture of what purgatory really means in the Catholic Church because Trent clearly presented a polished version of purgatory. Purgatory was d scariest thing growing up in the catholic faith, the church really teaches that a person has to be severely punished for their leftover venial sins and we have to keep praying for them so that God can reduce their punishment lest they be sent to hell.
