I read all comments, but I cannot respond to all. So, let me say these three things: 1. A very common post is one that argues for one of the three different interpretations of Hell - eternal conscious torment, annihilation, or universalism. Yes, there are biblical grounds for each. But my point is that those three interpretations are contradictory; they are mutually exclusive. So, to me the only logical conclusion is that the Bible is not a trustworthy book. 2. Many Christians are completely unaware that their arguments are based on the presupposition that the Bible is true in the first place, and they tend to preach rather than debate. If a Christian says “every knee will bow,” that means nothing to us non-Christians, because we don’t share your presupposition, and you’re just making an assertion rather than an argument. 3. I cover virtually every issue on my website www.confrontingbelievers.com/ (including conversations with top apologists, like William Lane Craig, Hugh Ross, Hank Hanegraaff, and Peter Kreeft). The video “Why I Cannot Accept Jesus” ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Mq1o70FKoyo.html is a succinct 23-minute presentation of all the reasons why I, and most other ex-Christians, have left the faith.
The most frightening aspect of religion is that a human can be indoctrinated to believe that all of their fellow beings deserve an eternity of torture based on an innate 'sinful' nature that was allocated to them, through no choice of their own, at birth. This perception of humans can affect how we treat one another. Apparently, few will escape this eternal torture, and only if they conform to a given theology. One's bravery, sacrifice, generosity, and kindness are completely irrelevant to their "afterlife" status since theology requires a dogmatic adherence, first and foremost. Most Christians shy away from a description of Hell as a torture chamber and I respect the sugar coating that many Christians ascribe Hell due to their empathy. But let us be honest, if Hell is at least as bad as a root canal. What could be worse than a constant root canal which never ends? Year after year of never-ending root canals with no breaks; How could Hell be defined as anything other than torture? Infinite suffering for finite sins that you were unlucky enough to be born with. We know that sometimes suffering teaches us lessons but there are no lessons to be learned in Hell and there is no escape or forgiveness. There is so much I don't know and freely admit as much. There certainly could be something supernatural or a spiritual world outside our own typical perceptions. I don't dismiss personal experience, only man written doctrine as a need to explain that experience. The Bible seems driven by men using tremendous fear(Hell) and great rewards(Heaven) to spread their message. And, the scaffolding of a billion-dollar industry called "apologetics," used as a way to maintain belief. A true message needs none of these things. If there is a God, maybe he would be horrified at the idea that all of Buddhist monks in Tibet or all the Native Americans before European colonization, somehow deserving of an eternity of torture. If there is a God, why is biblical inerrancy virtuous. It seems to me that humans are wired for a rigid attachment to certainty. Given our bias which seems to require a rigid attachment to certainty for the big questions of meaning and purpose; Any religion, cult, or belief system using extreme fear-driven tactics to garner adherents should be carefully questioned for evidence of their claims. If humans were born with anything, it is an inmate narcissism that will not allow them to even consider the possibility that they may, one day, cease to exist.
Here is the part you missed: We don't know all of where Grace is but we do know where it can be found. You think "Believe in Jesus or go to hell." but that isn't the case. In clearly states in the bible that Christ is the way to the enternal kingdom where only few will enter but we don't know about what will happen with other people. We simply do not know. It is a mystery that only God knows. It's like this - I know there is a path to heaven but I can't say how God will judge others who will choose a different path or don't know about the path. So nobody is saying all Native Americans or Monks will get eternal torture. God knows us from our hearts not some total binary rationale that you are explaining here. Here's the other rational piece. This universe is created and is finite. We know that everything is dying and that we are in a cycle of a chain of events. Logic tells us that whatever created this world must be outside the causal chain of events, outside of space and time. You're spirit will go to that place outside of this space/time universe that we are in to a place of eternity. So there isn't another time based finite realm available to us. We will go to where the creator is, outside space/time, therefore whatever happens next must be infinite.
@@ayoitstony Nobody is saying all Native American and Monks will get eternal torture? John 3:18 says so: ”He who does not BELIEVE is condemned already, because he has not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Bottom line for me is that the Bible is a contradictory mess on the afterlife. So I believe in a God of my own perception, much better than the Christian God.
You are not being placed in hell for a finite crime. In fact, God provides you with the means to wipe any and every crime off the books, no matter how serious, through confession and absolution. You are going to hell for hating him, pushing him away, and telling him you don't want him in the face of all his appeals for your love. He's respecting your decision.
@@jimnewl hey stoopid wicked christian have you been to hell or you just read it in your wretched evil bible of your murderous bloodthirsty genocidal maniac of a god? oh and a god who loves to torture and feed his ego by creating evil/ darkness right?
@@jimnewl I'm not being placed in Hell for anything. You don't know your own Bible. Romans 5:13 states, "Where there is no (Old Covenant) law, sin is not taken into account." This of course means that salvation was only needed by those who had sin taken into account, which was only ancient Israelites cursed with the Old Covenant law of sin and death, which is no one alive today. Also, Hebrews 9:15 states, "Redemption was only for those who sinned under the first covenant." Don't forget Galatians 4:5, "Jesus came only to redeem those under the (Old Covenant) law." Then there are the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 15:24, "I only came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel", which is no one alive today. Finally, Romans 9:4 codifies it all..."The adoption in Sonship, the glory, the covenants (both Old & New), the giving of the law, the worship and the promises only belonged to (ancient) Israelites." You've been hoodwinked into hijacking and inserting yourself into ancient Israel's exclusive and fulfilled redemptive narrative, the Bible. The Bible: It's Not About Us Today!
Hell is the result of the rejection of God. If a person rejects God and his son and the holy Spirit, they choose to be separated from God for all of eternity. Knowing full well that God is the source of all goodness. It is by their choice that they are condemned
If God is the source of all good and a person possessing a perfectly free will refuses God and his mercy, what is the injustice in God giving that person what he has asked for, which is necessarily void of any goodness? You seem to think that justice would be God forcing his goodness upon you, who have insisted that you don't want it. The important point, which I don't think you understand, is that all goodness has God as its source, and all evil is the absence or privation of good. Thus, after the judgment, by logical necessity, you can only have the one or the other which you have chosen.
What is wrong with you? You are asking what is the injustice of torturing people endlessly. Isn’t it obvious!? And you’re trying to obfuscate this moral failure on your part by spouting nonsensical theology to justify the horrible idea of hell. I refuse Allah and his mercy, because I do not think He is the true God. Likewise, I refuse the Christian God. I believe in the probability of my own perception of God, which is far better than the perception of the barbarians who wrote the Bible. Your God condones slavery (Lev 25:44-46), orders genocides, etc., etc. I’d compare the reasonableness of my God to your God any day, point by point. Your God has heaven or hell; my God has everyone gets what they deserve, proportionately.
@@2994485 😂 obviously you haven't read single word of Sanskrit the vedas the Uspandite or anything on Buddhism nor bothered to read anything on the different indiginous cultures around the world like the aboriginals of Australia or the Maori of new Zealand or the Celtic people of the West.. Everyone of them has a hell and many of them have multiple levels of destruction an torment. They also all have a Crown that is the Ancient Of Gate to the Throne Room. The Morning Star you will be given.
@@brentmathie7345 First of all, I have studied other religions and cultures. I think it is arrogant of you to assume I haven’t. For what it is worth, I think Buddhism is the best of the major religions. But the issue is the concept of hell and if it makes sense. Just because other cultures have some form of hell, that does not make the Christian idea of eternal conscious torment a sound idea. I wonder if you even watched the video and thought about the ideas presented. I studied for three years under the Dalai Lama’s lesser known brother… Kenny Lama. [No, I didn’t. That’s a David Letterman joke.]
@@jamescarrington5521 People who think like me? What is that? I’m open to reason. You mean there is no point in debating non-Christians if you, as a Christian, are committed to being a Christian no matter what, which is what I think you mean. A valid religion should hold up to honest scrutiny. I, and millions of others, cannot countenance a cruel, unjust concept like Hell.
The most interesting fact about hell is that it predates Christianity by a mile. It isn't inherently a Christian idea at all, Buddhism for example which is thousands of years older taught their own version of Hell, along side ideas like Hades in Greek mythology. Even Zoroastrianism taught about a similar idea to the Christian hell, hell seems to be inspired and borrowed by other religions that Christianity unfortunately picked up. So if Christians commonly deny all other religions deeming them as false, why do they believe in hell if if it does not come from Christianity in its original form at all.
Interesting video! I've given this a lot of thought as a follower of Christ, and I've gone through the gamut of emotions and logical problems concerning this. It's definitely a difficult problem emotionally and logically, second only to the problem of evil, I'd say. The problem is necessarily logically complex, so I will hope you bear with a length of explanation. I like that you immediately dismiss a lot of nonsense concerning the issue that "waters down" the concept of hell. Even long time Christians and so-called "apologists" feel the weight of hell so much they water it down terribly beyond Scripture, making all kinds of forms of "easier to swallow" punishment, such as annihilationism where you just stop existing, univeralism, where hell is just a temporary refining, and other (surprisingly common) forms of watering down the description of hell into just "feeling a bit lonely" or "not having God around" or "being trapped with your own selfish thoughts" or other such nonsense that sadly and shockingly many, many Christians have compromised into. And I respect that you are forthright, I do not expect nor ask you to "respect" the position. So the first thing I want to say is, I appreciate your respect and honesty concerning the Biblical description of hell, that supersedes even many of my own faith who have compromised such clearly written truths. Clearly, hell in the Bible is the active wrath of God displayed in the utmost terms of severity that includes torment, torture, and the height of suffering and pain, for an infinitely long during, under the depiction of fire and consuming worms. I can only wish so many of my fellow Christians had the integrity to just read the Bible for what it says, and I applaud you for showing them up as compromisers. Hell is not just symbolic. Christ made a very big point of saying hell is worse than anything humans can even potentially do to you-however bad you think it is, it's worse. Now that I got all your praises out of the way, I do think you make some severe logical errors here, and they are easy and common to make. Most importantly is the issue of moral determination and the standard of right and wrong. You have to consider, seriously and deeply, that when we theoretically object to the Deity's morality that we are in fact setting ourselves up as a "deity" in its place. You might think this is an overstatement, but consider. We are very used to getting our inherent "rights" in a civilized world based on a principle of mutual governing, but this does not somehow prove it's moral authority. God, being the unique Entity that created all things and upholds them each second by his power, has a unique place of Authority and Importance by virtue of him (pronouns don't matter here), being the Source of it. He has a logical right to do whatever he wants, because he's the one that made it. And you say "Does that mean might makes right?" There is indeed a sense in which that is absolutely true. Then you might argue, "But does that make any bully or monster right simply for being more powerful?" If that evil creature was the most powerful thing, it would indeed logically equate to that, but we can simply say there is nothing more powerful than God, so the buck stops there, and no other creatures power is enough to rival it. Now logically if we take another path to the establishment of moral values we run into two problems. We find we have an external "thing" outside of God that he must serve and adhere to, something greater than God himself. And secondly, we have another problem. When we create this external morality God must adhere to, we center the source of value away from God and into the creation-the creature becomes the locus and determiner of value, its desires become the "god" that all things must bow down to, even God himself. Because we get to a place, where one can be so displeased and angry at the theoretical Biblical God, that one would think we would condemn God himself to hell for making it! So this leads to some logical conclusions. To object to the Deity's right to establish morality, one must look to some other source for the authority of dictating it, and this means one looks to one's own "feelings," ones own intuitive moral determinations, what we "think" should be right and wrong and happen to those who morally transgress. And that logically means (I'm not just spamming the word logical to sound smart, I've had this silly accusation-the point is to emphasize every point I make flows from the other, and is reasonably connected)-that logically means we have established our own arbitrary preference as the Ultimate Determiner of right and wrong over the place of the Being whose Substance and Actions logically entitles it to that place. We have really and essentially enthroned ourselves in the place of God himself. And by extension, that means we have to place lower value on God-we have to belittle God, shrink down God's value to very, very, very small-almost worthless. God is "just one of the boys" now. And one more error you make here, is that the Bible does not at all indicate we will naturally embrace or like God's ways, and we expect to "not like" hell as the rebellious sinners we naturally are. No Christian who understands the Bible will expect anyone to naturally "like" hell, that's just against the entire teaching of Scripture. The Bible clearly and forcefully teaches that all fallen sinners will naturally dislike God's fundamental standard of morality. And here, towards the end, you make this grave error in logic. Even under human morality, whether right or wrong, civilizations often distinguish the severity of a crime by the importance and authority of the person transgressed. Violations against Presidents or police officers, do carry a heavier weight most often. And that is not to use it as a "proof," but an example. There is nothing at all illogical about the logic of it. If God has infinite worth and importance, it does transfer to the crimes against him, there's no way around that. To simply dismiss it with a wave of the hand is to be intellectually dishonest. So why does the crime of hell seem to severe to us as morally corrupt and idolatrous creatures, born into rebellion and perversion? The reason is quite simple actually-we don't think "evil" is all that bad. I mean, if I just steal some candy, why should I have my hand chopped off, right? But where is the source of the objection coming from here? It's just this, the idea that "stealing some candy is no big deal!" See, necessarily, you have to devalue the crime, you have to lessen how evil that evil really is, you have to say sin is no big deal, and this all extends from devaluing God in the first place, since God really doesn't matter and has no real value at all. And this also ties in with the logic that you used that you shouldn't be forced to have to expend any effort to seek God to find him, God should just plop everything on a plate while you sit on your spiritual behind in your spiritual lazy boy doing absolutely nothing, because God "owes" you just for forcing you to exist. But God has a moral right to expect more from you than laziness and apathy, and because of his worth he can consider himself worthwhile of any effort to find him. to be continued...
Part 2: Now consider quite literally the worst thing you think a human being is possible of doing. I mean way, way past Hitler or the stand cliches. This human being is pure evil and literally does the worst things a human is capable of, let's say this human somehow gets into a place of power and rapes every child in existence, and tortures them all to death, or something. Whatever is the very worst evil you can possibly imagine at all in any scenario. What do you think this person is worthy of? What should happen to them? What is their just punishment? Can they just stop and say "Aw shucks, I shouldn't have raped those 40 million kids and tortured them to death, sorry about that," and then all is okay? All is forgiven? No big deal? Perhaps you think they should suffer for what they did? Maybe a little? Maybe a lot? But how much? One year in torment for every child they raped? Would infinity be too long? Would after about 10 million years, you look at their suffering and start to feel sorry for them? "Shucks, I know you literally raped a child to death while they were screaming for mercy, and tortured them in the worst ways possible, but man, this really is a bit much. You've learned your lesson and it's all good now. Go and sin no more." See, you have to just... even "consider," mentally allow the possibility for the existence of an action, that is so morally depraved and corrupt, that literally nothing for all eternity could somehow "make it better" and "make it right" again. Now that's an important step I can't underestimate-just consider this hypothetical action, because it opens the door to understanding why a punishment might be severe. But here, we again revert back to our own "feelings" of morality, and once again enthrone the creature above Creator, giving our arbitrary whims the all-powerful scepter of authority and dominion to establish moral rights and wrongs, and there accompanying rewards and punishments. Even if you eliminate morality, or remove all consequences for actions, you still are establishing a system of morality by abolishing it-either way, you are decreeing a value to certain actions. And this is the fundamental problem with the objection. It is based in a logical standard that originates from devaluing God. And that-morally that equals direct rebellion against God's authority. It is equivalent to pride, arrogance, self-entitled narcissism, to establish one's own feelings of morality as the ultimate arbiter of all right and wrong. It is rebellion against God and pride in own's own importance and position of merely existing, and along with that comes a connection to and union with the originator of rebellion himself, the king of pride, the first "guy" to ever say "no" to God, the devil himself. And this is the disposition and default we are all born with, these attitudes towards God that devalue him and revolt against him, and this is why it literally takes a miracle to see and appreciate all of the logic I wrote above-it does not ever come naturally, it is not our natural disposition, but it comes as a gift of mercy from God from his goodwill and desire to restore his creation he made for his own glory and pleasure, that was lost through delegated authority. And authority is something we are all born with a problem with, and don't see and appreciate how it reflects the character and worth of God. All the natural evils you can think of-babies born with tumors, the holocaust, every sickness, every abuse of fellow humans, every natural disaster, every oppression and negative feeling, every suffering and every hurt, every bad feeling any creature ever experienced, all the billions of animals suffering, the ocean, nay, the literal tsunami of creaturely suffering from the fall-it all is so great because of one reason, and one reason alone. Not the silly "soul building" theodicy that we all know so intuitively fails to explain unreasonable and unnecessary suffering that builds no ones character at all. No. It is so great a suffering because it expresses the true and real worth of God-and how indescribably and unfathomably and immeasurably evil and corrupt and bad it is to rebel against God, and belittle God, and treat God like trash. And that-that is a truth no sinner ever will appreciate or has appreciated, because God is just never "worth it." So when we sweep away the board, we are left with just a few pieces. We are left with, just like the book of Job, our solitary self and the Infinite Being that made it. And this is everyone's story in the end, the determiner of their fate. How they treat God. How they respond to God. How they decide to either put God first, or sacrifice God for some other value-whether making the suffering of creation an idol they will sacrifice their own well-being to in some kind of sick and twisted false virtue campaign of enshrining their pride as the ultimate righteousness-or some other desire of sin, to give them the feeling of grandeur and pleasure from their own self-exaltation in one way or another. Will we rebel and stick our finger at God and say "funk you, God!" Or will we realize the stupidity and pointlessness and immorality of all our objections for the extreme grotesque act of narcissism it really is? And the reason we all hate pride is, in the end, our own standard of value-we think the person is giving them "more value than they deserve." But for God, this literally can never logically be, and that is why his own glorification is never narcissistic-because he has the substance to actually match the claim, because he really is "all that," because he is the pinnacle of infinite beauty and power and worth by virtue of his substance and actions. Which will it be? Will you be your own god in the end, and sacrifice all your well being to make yourself feel better? Or will realize the incredible worth of God.
Can’t afford the time to engage in long debates with many people. But I will make a few comments here. I appreciate your agreeing that many Christians are not being honest when they adopt some watered down version of Hell instead of the severe concept the Bible presents. Strongly disagree that rejecting Christianity is ”setting ourselves up as a "deity" in its place. You are assuming the Christian God is the true God in the first place. I am not making myself God; I am choosing a more rational God. When you reject Allah, you are NOT rejecting God and making yourself God, but are choosing a different, more rational God. Religions suffer from the same issue of subjectivity that you claim secularists are plagued with. Because WHICH God are you going to follow? Allah, Jesus, the Jehovah's Witnesses God, David Koresh’s God? I think most people’s “own intuitive moral determinations” come from God. “The rebellious sinners we naturally are.” “Born into rebellion and perversion.” I’m not a big fan of the human race, but this Christian concept of all humans being naturally evil, is, I think, horribly misguided. And, as my brother once said to me, “It’s damaging. That belief tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.” Yeah, good point, that the importance and authority of the person transgressed does make a difference. Yet, as others have mentioned, INFINITE punishment for only one lifetime of evil, is not just. "Stealing some candy is no big deal!" I agree with you. It IS a big deal. I think you are to some extent demonizing non-Christians. Most atheists I know strongly object to stealing anything. “Shouldn't be forced to have to expend any effort to seek God to find him.” “God should just plop everything on a plate.” No one is saying that. Only that WITH effort we should be able to get some at least better evidence. Like I said, I can’t afford the time to have an ongoing debate. But all the reasons I reject Christianity are on my website. (www.confrontingbelievers.com/) And I have talked to some very smart apologists. Probably a 23-minute video called “Why I Cannot Accept Jesus” (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Mq1o70FKoyo.html) is the best summary of my position against Christianity.
@@2994485 Wow, that was a very respectful and cordial answer, one of the nicest answers I've gotten from an skeptic. Kudos. Yo, I understand not wanting to debate. I gave a witness to the truth, not for the sake of debate. And I appreciate your honest answer and attention, so I will keep this reply short out of respect for you time. And the truth is, you will understand from my position, most people have already "decided" in the light of some measure of truth to rebel against God-you cannot out-argue a decision to rebel, that's not logically possible. You said "I am choosing a more rational God." You also made a logical error about me rejecting Allah. The truth is I am 100% willing to accept Allah or ANY God who is the real God-I do not COME to God DICTATING the TERMS upon which I ALLOW him to be God-that's the wrong approach and the wrong moral foundation. The truth is, you ARE picking your God by your own preferences and your own moral values because you assume you are morally perfect. And THAT is, in fact, picking a God based upon the ultimate standard of what YOU want to be the true. I do not accept nor support the arguments of Christian "apologists." I don't hate them, but I don't believe they are correct. Truth only comes by revelation, and this should be obvious really, as whatever is God is so far above us. So the only thing I would encourage is continued sincere and fervent prayer-none of this "I already prayed" business. If you don't seek God until your last breath, you are in no wise serious about Him. Thanks again for your response.
Hell is not just a place but a state of being eternally separated from God, the ultimate source of goodness and love. This separation is described not in terms of physical pain but as a profound spiritual suffering, akin to a soul's "burning" without God's presence. The metaphorical "fires of Hell" signify the intense anguish of being disconnected from divine love, emphasizing that rejecting this connection has dire spiritual consequences. This concept highlights the significance of free will and the eternal impact of our choices on our souls. If you're questioning or even challenging beliefs about God and Jesus, it makes one wonder, why aspire to Heaven-a place defined by unity with that very essence you doubt? This seems to imply a gap in understanding the foundational elements of Christian faith and what Heaven truly represents. It's about more than just an afterlife destination; it's about the relationship and alignment with divine love and truth. Neither you nor your Christian friends have an idea of what they are talking about.
Hey, Mr. Jako wanted to let you know that I replied to you on Thursday night. I put much prayer, thought, and time into the reply and yesterday when I checked to see if you had replied it was gone, just vanished! If RU-vid is filtering out comments (which they have admitted to) then it seems like that would prove the truth and effectivness of the Bible even more. I really appreciate your willingness to discuss these things and it really disappoints me that they are suppressing open dialogue, if in fact they did delete my response. I would like to continue the back and forth dialogue but I don’t trust RU-vid comments any longer! I have heard of this happening to others as well.
Yeah, I don’t know what happened. I got this comment fine, but I did not get anything last Thursday. Maybe try again. Oddly, I get most comments directly in the comments section but yours I get in my email (???) Hopefully you’ve saved a copy of what you wrote Thursday and can send it again.
@@2994485 Okay RU-vid police, I'm making a copy of this one! Hi again Mr. Jako, I have no idea why my comments were emailed to you. I'm going to try to remember what I can from the post that vanished. In it I wrote about a miracle that my daughter and I had witnessed and how greater miracles happen today than walking on the water. Missionaries talk about these things but you would never hear about them on CNN (or Fox or MSNBC or virtually any news outlet). And I'm definitely not talking about the "miracles" that televangelists talk about in order to get people's money. If you wanted to read some cool miracles, even cooler than walking on water, you could read Tramp for the Lord by Corrie Ten Boom, Evidence not Seen by Darlene Rose, or the story of Prince Kaboo who was rescued by a "flash of light" that told him to run that made his ropes fall off while being beaten almost to death in Liberia. He came to America to learn more about Jesus but became more like a missionary here. (www.taylor.edu/about/samuel-morris) I made the point that Jesus never said anything about starting a religion called Christianity and He really didn't get along with the religious people. He did weep over them the week before they killed Him and He also forgave them as they were killing Him. I said that there is a silly but true quote "Never read a Bible verse" and that we Christians make a big mistake by not understanding the context. The passage in Matthew about that generation not passing makes a lot more sense when you read the verses above it. There is another quote "Seventy-five percent of what we see is behind our own eyes" (Chinese Proverb). I acknowledge that my worldview affects the way I perceive things, however in realizing this I always try to stay teachable with an open mind. I know that a lot of what is said in the name of Christ is not good (or true) but I'm also careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So, my point here is this: If some people took all of your words, selected the highlights, and put them into a book (The Book of Mr Jako), and then even after 2000 years of analyzing your words, I don't think it would be fair for someone to take a few of the comments that you made (remember, completely different culture) and made subjective beliefs about you based on that. If someone made a book about you or me it would be better if the people in a different time and culture stood back and understood the full message of our words as a whole. (Another good book is Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes by Kenneth Bailey.) And if the Bible made perfect sense all the time it would be harder to believe because that wouldn't be normal. Also, I've read some of your comments about the Old Testament. People had completely messed up everything back then, mostly forgetting about God. He was graciously making way for Messiah to come. We as people have been given a lot more influence than we realize. We have a tendency to really screw things up, but He always has a path to redemption. I had made the point that in watching some of your videos it seems like you really want to know the truth and you mentioned the "hiddeness of God". (Please allow me one more quote!) The Red Sea didn't part until they stepped into the water. I'm afraid that you may be "zoomed in" so closely on certain passages that you are missing the overall context. I agree that there are bad things in Christianity (just like when Jesus was on Earth there were bad things happening in Judaism as well). But again, Jesus didn't come to start a religion. There are too many unexplainable unique things about Jesus to simply write Him off as a religious extremist. And, even though you don't know me and it means very little, I can confirm that He is very present when we ask Him for things. You said something about asking Him for whatever we want and He'd give it to us ("will have anything we pray for granted"). He was talking about it being in the context of being in His Father's will, not like a magic genie. (I'm pretty sure you already knew that though!) The Bible wasn't designed like a standard operating procedure from the police department. I would try being completely honest with Him and tell Him that you would be willing to believe in Jesus but you are having a difficult time with some of the things in the Bible. He is faithful to give us a nudge. Like I mentioned in another post, it's like untying a knot, you have to give it a little slack to start with. God is not affected by what we think He should do or be like, but He does care enough to respond to us when we are willing to open the door for Him. I honestly believe that you would have a huge impact if you were a believer. I've never been so compelled to respond to a RU-vid video! I think that this one ended up being a lot longer than the one they deleted.
Miklos, I agree with you. I think the idea of an everlasting hell (eternally burning hell where evil people are tortured) makes God a monster not a loving compassionate Creator of the Universe. One day I went to the office where I worked and one of my co-workers, Thalia told me, "I rejected the idea of God years ago when I learned that Christians believe God tortures people in Hell for eternity for the wrong things they do in this life!" I told my friend, "This is not what the Bible teaches!" I had read the Bible myself and as most Christians know, the English Bible is a translation from Hebrew and Greek. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and the New Testament is translated from Greek. In both the Old and New Testament (original languages) the concept of "hell" is very different from our English idea. I like ancient languages, and although I don't speak Hebrew or Greek, I do have an interlinear Greek and Hebrew Bible on my bookcase. This allows me to go to specific verses in the Bible and read the original wording used in both Hebrew and Greek and it helps me understand the original meaning of the verses in question. What an eye-opener! After studying this subject of "hell" in the original Hebrew and Greek languages using my interlinear Bible, I found something very startling. First, most Christians have never done a study about what the Bible teaches about "hell" and instead of taking a Biblical view of this topic have adopted "pagan" ideas. I will explain what I mean in a minute. In Matthew Chapter 5, Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Jewish people who had gathered to hear him speak. This was at the beginning of his ministry and Matthew Chapter 5 is known as the "Sermon on the Mount!" It is widely known as one of the most important speeches given by Jesus by most Christians. Jesus is describing the 10 Commandments in this sermon and explains to the people gather there, what sin is (doing wrong toward others or toward God). In this sermon Jesus states that those who harm others will be thrown out of eternal life like the trash was thrown out into the local dump called Gehenna. Gehenna during the time of Jesus Christ was an area outside Jerusalem used as a dump. Some of the local authorities continually saw to it that this dump was "burning" so that the trash would not pile up at the dump but instead was constantly being incinerated. When I read and studied this original description of "hell" (Gehenna = a burning dump) I started realizing that the idea of an eternally burning hell where there were "conscious" people being tortured throughout eternity, was inaccurate. Here is what I also found during my Bible study of the original Hebrew and Greek languages. 1) We as humans do not have souls inside of us, we are souls (soul is an Old English word that means "being") Genesis 2:7 2) At death the Bible teaches that our being (soul) ceases to exist and our thoughts (conscious awareness) ends. Psalms 146:4, Psalm 6:5 3) The concept of an eternally burning hell is a pagan idea. The pagans believe that at death a conscious part of the human goes to a place of reward or a place of punishment. The Bible teaches that there is a judgment at the end of the world but that "hell" is not currently existing or burning. Psalm 37:37-38. According to Matthew 25:1-46 the judgment happens at the end of the world. In Matthew 25:46 it describes an eternal punishment of the wicked (those who harm others). The consequences of this punishment last forever, but this verse does not describe the punishment as "eternally" occurring. There is a difference between an "eternal" punishment and a punishment that is eternally occurring. 4) Romans 2:7-8 states that only the righteous receive eternal life. The wicked (those who harm others) will not be given eternal life. In fact there is no conscious thought in death (Psalms 146:4) so the concept of a conscious being suffering in hell throughout eternity is not Biblical. 5) Jesus describes death as a "sleep!" (John 11:11-14). Actually 54 times the Bible describes death as a "sleep!" This fact should startle Christians who somehow believe that we become spirits that float around as ghosts when we die. The idea that we are conscious beings at death is not Biblical. At death the Bible teaches that our thoughts die with our bodies (Psalm 146:4, Psalm 6:5). 6) Those who believe in Jesus Christ and accept his atoning sacrifice will be resurrected (our bodies and minds revived) when Jesus comes again. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 After I discovered some of these truths in the Bible it started dawning on me that most Christians don't know what the Bible teaches about death and "hell." If they did then none of them would tolerate preachers who try to scare Christians into good behavior by scaring them with the idea of eternal torment of souls in hell. This "hell" ideas is all nonsense and the Bible does not teach that humans are tortured by God in hell for all eternity. If there is still any question about what the Bible teaches on this subject, then it is important to ask what happens to the eternally burning wicked when death is destroyed? Yes, the Bible teaches that death is finally destroyed at the judgment. Revelation 20:13-14 If you plan on doing a study of this topic for yourself make sure you get an interlinear Bible (Greek or Hebrew) and actually read the words that are often translated as "hell" in the English Bible translations. This is important because many "pagan" beliefs have been included in our modern American Bibles. If we could go back 2000 years ago it would be much clearer that the original Jewish people did not have the theology of an eternally burning hell that never ends and tortures the wicked endlessly. My question is "How can the average Christian really believe God is good when they believe He will torture people forever?" I can't believe that and fortunately I don't have to because the Bible doesn't teach that!
My route is different. I think the Bible DOES teach eternal conscious torment: Revelation 20:10 “And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” I think it teaches three contradictory, mutually exclusive ideas about the afterlife - eternal conscious torment, annihilation, and universalism. So I conclude the Bible is not trustworthy, and go with my own perception of a general God not tied to any particular religion. So much of biblical exegesis is based on the assumption that Christianity is true in the first place. Whereas I don’t have that assumption.
@@2994485 I don't think anyone should take the Bible at face value without testing each part of it! ...Some Christians think that you can trust and believe in the Bible without testing it! -Somehow I think that isn't a good idea without doing a little investigation to see if it holds water. You are correct that the Bible states in Revelation 20:10 "And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." To be honest, I believe this is a faulty translation of the original Greek text. If you are interested in what the original Greek says then it might interest you to know that the John who wrote Revelation did not believe in eternally burning hell. An interlinear Greek Bible clears this up. That is why I reference it over and over again when I study specific topics. Revelation 14:11 also sounds similar to the verse you quoted above "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” But the key to understanding both of these texts is to understand that the concept of "forever and ever" in the Hebrew mind is very different than in the Western American mind. This really surprised me when I first learned the cultural difference in their understanding. This is why these texts have been mistranslated when the original languages were being translated into English. In the Hebrew mindset the term "forever and ever" does not mean "eternity!" Usually this phrase means "until its natural end!" How can this be? Here's an example of what I mean. In the story of Jonah and the whale. Jonah is tossed overboard and he starts sinking into the water during the storm. He declares that the "gates of the water" are locking him in forever. (Jonah 2:6). Yet this "forever" ends up being 3 days. Perhaps he felt like it would be longer. Here are some other Bible texts that use the term "forever" for time frames that are not "eternity!" In Exodus 21:6 a servant who will become a life-long servant (slave) to his master is given a certain ear ring to signify that he will serve his master "forever!" In 1 Samuel 1:22 Hannah decides to take her son Samuel to the temple so that he will serve the Lord "forever!" In the Hebrew mindset there were limits to "forever" and this term was used to signify "until its natural end." Because this term "forever" can seem ambiguous in the Bible (not having a specific time-frame) it is important to study what the Bible actually teaches about death and hell! Specific Bible texts that teach about hell can clear up this confusion rather nicely. Here are some Bible texts that address the concept of judgement and "hell" and explain what hell actually is, and how long it lasts! Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul (human being) who sins will die!" John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life!" (The unbelievers perish, the believers are given eternal life). Malachi 4:1-3 The day is coming when the wicked will become stubble. They will be burned up. Ezekiel 28:18 At the end of the world Satan will be destroyed and become ash. Psalm 37:10 In a little while the wicked will be "no more!" Psalm 37:20 The wicked will be consumed Psalm 68:2 The wicked perish There are many more Bible texts like this that explain over and over again that those who are lost are not tortured endlessly. Instead there is an end to the wicked. Eventually death itself is destroyed at the very end of the world. (Revelation 20:14). Unfortunately many people have rejected God and the Bible because they believe the Bible teaches that the wicked will be tormented and punished endlessly throughout eternity. This is not what the Bible teaches at all. There is a really good website that goes into mistranslations and human misunderstandings very well. It is HellTruth.com. One final thought. It is easy to disprove an eternally burning hell from the Bible. Most Christians who believe that hell exists with torture that lasts forever, think hell is somehow existing right now. They believe that the wicked are already in hell and somehow being tortured even now. When you ask them "Where is hell?" They don't know. They think it is some metaphysical reality separate from our physical existence. Yet the Bible teaches that the judgment happens at the end of the world and only after that is there a reward for the righteous and a punishment of the wicked. The Bible teaches that the punishment (natural consequence) of the wicked is eternal death not eternal dying. The reason the wicked die is not because God doesn't want to save them, but because the wicked have rejected the life-giver (God). Death is a natural consequence of rejecting God who gives life. Satan (Lucifer) does not have the ability to give life. He is not the Creator God that can give life. By default, if we choose Satan (Lucifer) we are choosing death. Most people don't know the Bible teaches this! In the Garden of Eden, the serpent tempts Eve to eat the fruit. God has already warned Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit because when they eat it they will die. The serpent tells Eve that she won't die as God has said but will become like God knowing good and evil. This seems appealing to her and she eats the fruit. (Genesis Ch. 3) Some people think this Adam and Eve story is an allegory and not to be taken literally. Later verses in the Bible explain this incident however. In Revelation 12:9 we find out that Satan is the dragon (serpent) that deceived Eve in the Garden of Eden at the very beginning. 2 Cor. 11:14 tells us that Satan can change himself and appear as an "angel of light" and yet he is the deceiver of the whole world. Satan according to the Bible can "appear" to humans in whatever form he wants. We as humans don't understand this, but somehow he was able to convince Eve that she saw a serpent (snake) and that this snake "talked" to her. -Sounds like Lucifer was a good ventriloquist. The fact that the snake in the tree could "talk" convinced Eve that he must be right. If a snake can eat the fruit in the tree and start talking then what might happen if she were to eat the fruit? The deception worked. The original story of Adam and Eve in the garden is a literal story. There was nothing "magical" about the fruit. Instead a test was given to Adam and Eve to see if they would trust and follow God who is the life giver, or follow Satan (Lucifer) who is responsible for every death that has occurred. It is not God in the Bible that claims that humans will be tortured forever and ever. It is a lie that Satan has told from the very beginning ("you will not die") that has resulted in millions of Christians believing that God tortures people endlessly throughout eternity. God says in the Bible that the wages of sin is death, but Satan has deceived people into thinking that death is not really death! Satan tells people God is a liar! I wish everyone could study this topic for themselves. Even many preachers and evangelists don't seem to know what the Bible teaches. Why is that?
Incorrect. Jesus spoke of Hell (Gehenna) more than anyone else. (Luke 12:5 / Luke 10:15 / Mark 9:43-48) And your reference to Psalm 146:4 being the soul is not right...."His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;" (Ps. 146:4) the word is "spirit" and not "soul" a big difference. And Psalm 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?" is speaking of the mortal body which is corrupted and dies because of sin. There is lots of evidence for Hell. And to not see it is to live in denial. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 The rich man was conscious and had feelings and sensations in Hell. The real man... "the soul" experienced the torments of flame in Hell. And you are not understanding Revelation 20:11-15. The second death happens to the ungodly dead who are resurrected for judgment..."those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:29b) They die physically a second time (this is the 2nd. death) and their souls are cast into the Lake of Fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)
@@christophergibson7155 Apparently, you have (correctly in my opinion) concluded there is biblical ground for interpreting Hell as eternal conscious torment. But apparently also you have chosen to continue to believe in Christian theology. I think, like so many Christians, you have traded out your heart for irrational religious dogma. You think endless torture is somehow, loving and just.
@@2994485No, rather I take God at His Word. And false sentimentality will never do. The reason it is false sentimentality is because it is based on human intellect. And the un-regenerate mind is an enemy and rebel against God." the mind of the flesh [with its sinful pursuits] is actively hostile to God. It does not submit itself to God’s law, since it cannot, (Romans 8:7 Amp.) No one likes the thought of Hell, the Lake of Fire, and eternal separation from God. It is just an awful place. So very many want nothing to do with The Lord Jesus Christ and the gospel of the kingdom of God. And we see those who are cast into outer darkness who are "gnashing their teeth". To gnash one's teeth is to be very angry and full of hatred toward someone. In this case God Himself.
"extra ecclesium nulla sanctus" was the supposed dogmatic infallible catholic view for centuries and would mean that billions are guaranteed to already be in ect. I couldn't accept this which led to the rest of the faith collapsing .
Hello’s NOT a Christian idea. It is in fact of Pagan origin and specifically can be found reflected in the Grecoroman and Norse traditions. The use of the word Hell in English translations of the Bible is a poor adaptation . The three original words are Sheol ( The grave pit) Hades ( the abode of the dead ) and Gehenna ( a place of destruction of refuse). None of these terms carries with it an idea that a person is aware beyond death. Ecclesiastes 9:5 . So yes, the false doctrine of Hell is a manipulation to control people. But it is a NoN Biblical and God dishonoring manipulation. The totality of the Biblical tradition works much better without the idea of Hell, or an intrinsically immortal soul.
Christianity consigns people to hell, Man reinvents hell to put Christianity in. The Old Man cast out demons, the New Man shall debunk them. "God is dead... What sacred games must we invent?" [Nietzsche]
Hi again! I just want to offer a couple of thoughts really quick. The New Testament teaches how much worse believers' punishment will be than unbelievers because God disciplines us (believers) as sons. My views about hell lean toward the 10-minute video that Mark Corbett sent you that you watched. (Not that what I think is perfect, I'm just offering some things to consider as I have considered your arguments.) There is only one person in the Bible that it makes this comment about: "It would have been better for him if he had never been born" and that was Judas in Matthew 26:24. What about all the other people that reject him? Jesus purposefully makes this point about Judas. Maybe hell's punishment is more like a continuum? Possibly, some people's quick destruction in hell would be a dream for someone like Judas or Hitler who would suffer a lot worse. Of course, this is speculation and worth very little. It's just some things I think are possibilities. Back to the part about believers having it worse than unbelievers at times, I have been through some things as a Christian that made me beg for death, but in the end, my faith was stronger and I was a better person for it. Mark 9:49 says that everyone will be seasoned with fire. (I'm not saying that unbelievers hurt any less in tragedy, I'm actually running late right now and going a lot longer than i intended and doing a terrible job trying to make these points. I've been wanting to respond to you for a couple weeks and want finish now that I've started, please look over any mistakes! Let me say it this way When we have experienced God's peace the feeling of separation from Him is HORRIBLE, just like when you feel like you hurt someone you love... ). Last thing real quick- as far as "contradictions" I don't read the Bible like a textbook (if/then/else). Rather, I look at how my faith is rewarded with evidence.
If the punishment of hell is like a continuum, then the bible should have made that clear. The God that I believe in the probability of, has a continuum; reward and punishment are proportional to the level of good or evil the person has lived. I think you are basically saying that you believe in Christianity because it works for you emotionally in a profound way. I can’t do that. I want to know what is the actual objective truth about religion. And my conclusion is that a general God not tied to any particular religion (and all the baggage that comes with it), makes more sense. Too many profound immoralities in Christianity. I never feel separation from God in the sense that He is angry with me, but I do feel His hiddenness. Wish it were different, more evidence of God, but I figure that is reality. God only gives us soft evidence. I think that if I am a good person, and if there is a God, He loves me. But, I cannot be sure God exists, and that’s the way it is. I guess I’m more stoic, and individualistic, than you. Jesus says we can walk on water, will have anything we pray for granted, that the world would end in his generation. All not true. He was a religious extremist in my opinion.
@@2994485 Hey Mr. Jako, thank you for your response. There is a saying that the Red Sea didn't part until the Israelites stepped into the water. I have seen plenty of material evidence in my life that I could share but please allow me to share just one instance. When my oldest daughter was a little girl she got impetigo on her feet and legs and it got out of control. She was at risk of terrible scarring and medicine was not helping. It was bad. One Saturday I knew that I had to pray and I did sincerely pray and gave this situation over to God. Long story short, in about an hour it was a lot better and by the end of the day, it was gone without any scars. I write incidents like this down and could go on and on about them but simply wanted to share one example with you of how there are times of closeness to God and evidence of His hand in our lives. And it doesn't take a miracle to know He is near, it just takes an openness and willingness to hear from Him. That hiddenness that you mentioned, I sense that too and it drives me to search for Him. (By watching your videos it seems that you are searching as well, just try asking Him to reveal Himself to you and then give Him a chance.) As far as your last paragraph, missionaries see greater miracles than walking on water on a regular basis but you won't see them on CNN! When Jesus said ask for whatever you want He said "In my name". He didn't mean like magic, He meant in the context of God's will. About the Matthew passage, there is another saying "Never read a Bible verse". Please read at least back to verse 32 and it will make a lot more sense. You said in the first sentence that "The bible should have made that clear". There is an old Chinese proverb that says "Two-thirds of what we see is behind our eyes." Try reading it without inserting what you think. (Not trying to be disrespectful here!) I openly admit that my worldview affects how I read the Bible as well, but I try very hard to see from that 1/3 and be completely open to letting go of any personal preconceptions. Lastly, I don't think that it is soft evidence as you mentioned, I think that there is a constant, constant, constant, heart desire to come back to Him. This is how we are made, and there is no real satisfaction in life until we come to the One who gave His life for us. As you already know, there are some unique things about Jesus compared to the leaders of religions. (Notice that nowhere in the Bible did Jesus say that He was starting a religion called Christianity.)You said He was a religious extremist, but the religious people in Jerusalem would have said that He was not religious at all. I don't care what any Christian says, Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant, Jesus was more concerned about loving God, loving one another, (sacrificial love), grace, mercy, and forgiveness than he was about religion. (I am a Christian but the religious aspects mean little in comparison to a relationship with Him.) He said a lot against the religious people but He also wept over them before they killed Him. Then while He was dying He forgave them. Wishing you the best sir! And, please at least let me know if you read this (I'm worried that you won't see it because it's been about 3 days and I'm just now responding.) -Robbie
@2994485 Okay RU-vid police, I'm making a copy of this one! Hi again Mr. Jako, I have no idea why my comments were emailed to you. I'm going to try to remember what I can from the post that vanished. In it I wrote about a miracle that my daughter and I had witnessed and how greater miracles happen today than walking on the water. Missionaries talk about these things but you would never hear about them on CNN (or Fox or MSNBC or virtually any news outlet). And I'm definitely not talking about the "miracles" that televangelists talk about in order to get people's money. If you wanted to read some cool miracles, even cooler than walking on water, you could read Tramp for the Lord by Corrie Ten Boom, Evidence not Seen by Darlene Rose, or the story of Prince Kaboo who was rescued by a "flash of light" that told him to run that made his ropes fall off while being beaten almost to death in Liberia. He came to America to learn more about Jesus but became more like a missionary here. (www.taylor.edu/about/samuel-morris) I made the point that Jesus never said anything about starting a religion called Christianity and He really didn't get along with the religious people. He did weep over them the week before they killed Him and He also forgave them as they were killing Him. I said that there is a silly but true quote "Never read a Bible verse" and that we Christians make a big mistake by not understanding the context. The passage in Matthew about that generation not passing makes a lot more sense when you read the verses above it. There is another quote "Seventy-five percent of what we see is behind our own eyes" (Chinese Proverb). I acknowledge that my worldview affects the way I perceive things, however in realizing this I always try to stay teachable with an open mind. I know that a lot of what is said in the name of Christ is not good (or true) but I'm also careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So, my point here is this: If some people took all of your words, selected the highlights, and put them into a book (The Book of Mr Jako), and then even after 2000 years of analyzing your words, I don't think it would be fair for someone to take a few of the comments that you made (remember, completely different culture) and made subjective beliefs about you based on that (by reading one verse over here and another verse over there). If someone made a book about you or me it would be better if the people in a different time and culture stood back and understood the full message of our words as a whole by reading the whole thing. And if the Bible made perfect sense all the time it would be harder to believe because that wouldn't be normal. Also, I've read some of your comments about the Old Testament. People had completely messed up everything back then, mostly forgetting about God. He was graciously making way for Messiah to come. We as people have been given a lot more influence than we realize. We have a tendency to really screw things up, but He always has a path to redemption. I had made the point that in watching some of your videos it seems like you really want to know the truth and you mentioned the "hiddeness of God". (Please allow me one more quote!) The Red Sea didn't part until they stepped into the water. I'm afraid that you may be "zoomed in" so closely on certain passages that you are missing the overall context. I agree that there are bad things in Christianity (just like when Jesus was on Earth there were bad things happening in Judaism as well). But again, Jesus didn't come to start a religion. There are too many unexplainable unique things about Jesus to simply write Him off as a religious extremist. And, even though you don't know me and it means very little, I can confirm that He is very present when we ask Him for things. You said something about asking Him for whatever we want and He'd give it to us ("will have anything we pray for granted"). He was talking about it being in the context of being in His Father's will, not like a magic genie. (I'm pretty sure you already knew that though!) The Bible wasn't designed like a standard operating procedure from the police department. I would try being completely honest with Him and tell Him that you would be willing to believe in Jesus but you are having a difficult time with some of the things in the Bible. He is faithful to give us a nudge. Like I mentioned in another post, it's like untying a knot, you have to give it a little slack to start with. God is not affected by what we think He should do or be like, but He does care enough to respond to us when we are willing to open the door for Him. I honestly believe that you would have a huge impact if you were a believer. I've never been so compelled to respond to a RU-vid video!
The 'endless eternal never ending' hell,heaven etc is because only this material life has the illusion of time. In heaven,hell and most other dimensions are in the eternal ever present moment,timeless,without time so is in the eternal ever present. People do come back from hell so not all are damned forever and going to hell or heaven has very little to do with what you believe.Hell is not a punishment but a re absorption of pain,only what you have put in life .
I think you’re making up your own theology instead of following what the Bible clearly says in John 3:18 “he who does not BELIEVE is condemned already, because he has not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Biblically, going to heaven or hell had everything to do with what you believe. The damn thief on the cross goes to heaven, the good atheist goes to hell. I think any religion that emphasizes belief over behavior is a false religion.
So who determines what is “merciful, good, and true”? Putting aside Christianity, it seems like the justification you have is “my own reasoning and what I determine compassion is”.
Greetings friends! "Hell" is just a modern word for "the grave." Jesus of Nazareth was there himself after his execution by crucifixion. Thus He preached to and freed those improsoned there. Anyway..... True death, spiritual death, or the second death is the end of the man who rejects God. We are not eternal by nature. We live only through God. This was made plain early in the telling of creation. The lake of fire you imagine is reserved for Lucifer and his angels. This burns forever, and the smoke of it ascends forever. Those who are cast in with the Devil, his angels, and the false prophet will suffer the 2nd death, which is annihilation. That means you cease to exist........ forever. 😢 ... God will not force you into His Kingdom. If you have an ear to hear, please hear. Peace my Friends!!!!
Revelation 20:10 says, “And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” You cannot be “tormented forever and ever” if you cease to exist. As mentioned in the video, the Bible presents three contradictory, mutually exclusive ideas of hell - eternal conscious torment, annihilation, and universalism. I think to say hell is just a modern word for “the grave” is not honest. It is typical Christian soft-pedaling of hell. Because you know in your heart, that hell is a horrible idea, so you have to soft-pedal it.
@@2994485 Greetings, friend! Per adventure, in Rev 20:10, who will be tormented forever????? Three will be tormented forever. 1. Lucifer... 2.the beast. 3. The false prophet. If you have an ear to hear, please hear. Peace friend! Enjoy the Sabbath.
Yes hell is the grave, in the old covenant. In the New covenant God has revealed more, including his triune nature, and some of the details surrounding judgment in the afterlife which were shrouded from the Jews
@@2994485you are right. This is the revealed and true and accurate representation of hell. Before what was known as the grave was revealed to the Jews in shadows and typography. Jesus Christ came and fulfilled the law. Jesus Christ himself said that there's a great chasm between the two dwelling places, between Abraham's bosom and between hell
@@2994485 You have done a lot of research on this it seems. I agree with you, if you take this verse literally, then it does say that the devil, the beast the false prophet are tormented forever (I'm not completely convinced that is really what is being said, but I won't expand on that in an online chat forum). However, this is not a verse talking about people. In the previous verse, the people were devoured by fire and the object of this 'forever torment' is actually the devil, the beast and the false prophet. The people, however, "are thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." (Revelation 20:14,Revelation 21:7). The first world was judged by water (the flood - where the unredeemed were completely destroyed) and this world will be judged by fire in the same way. The entire Bible teaches a contrast of life vs. death (think about verses like John 3:16 or Romans 6:23). There is a contrast between being given the gift of life/immortality or receiving the punishment of death. This is why the Bible is book-ended by the Tree of Life (in the beginning access is denied because of sin and then when the ultimate covering for sin enters into the picture, access to immortality/Tree of life is given again (Revelation 22:2).
I'm thankful that you, Miklos, at least mention annihilationism. As you probably know, this doctrine is also called Conditional Immortality. You are correct that annihilationism, eternal conscious torment, and universalism cannot all be true. But annihilationism can be true and if annihilationism is taught by the Bible this can address your concern. People do not live such good lives that they deserve to live forever in a perfect world. So without some type of salvation, they won't. The alternative to eternal life is to perish (John 3:16). That's not unfair. You raise the problem of God allowing most Christians to wrongly believe in eternal torment. It seems to me that God often provides enough evidence of the truth to allow those who seek it and who are willing to go against the tide to find it and believe it, but not so much evidence as to essentially force people into believing. Perhaps He is looking for more than mere intellectual agreement with facts. In the case of the doctrine of conditional immortality, there is a wealth of evidence to support it. I give an overview of this evidence in this 10-minute video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-yZpjs74uQ0s.html
Mark, I watched your video. Yes, you make an excellent case for biblical evidence for annihilationism, but as you say, all three concepts cannot all be true. They are mutually exclusive ideas. The Bible is an unclear mess on the afterlife. My solution is to give up Christianity, not pick out the sections I like. (“Why I Cannot Accept Jesus”) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Mq1o70FKoyo.html
@@2994485 , wow, thanks for taking time not only to read my comment but to watch the video and reply. I wouldn't want you to "pick out the sections I like." While I do like annihilationism way more than eternal torment, that is not why I believe in annihilationism. I believe it because the biblical data very strongly supports it. I realize that the biblical data supporting annihilationism instead of eternal torment does not eliminate all your reasons for giving up on Christianity. But hopefully it helps with the biggest reason. Also, while we shouldn't just pick out the parts of Christianity and the Bible we like, it is reasonable to focus on those parts that are most central to the Christian faith. There is good evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is central. May God bless you!
@@MarkWCorbett1 We both think annihilationism is the most reasonable fate for evil people. But you base your conclusion on biblical passages, whereas I base mine on just common sense fairness. It may be a workable approach to focus on those parts “most central to the Christian faith,” but I think that as a matter of principle, focusing on only the good parts of an ideology and ignoring the bad parts, is not a valid approach. I cannot do that. The bad parts are there. As noted, I give all my reasons for rejecting Christianity in this 23-minute video - “Why I Cannot Accept Jesus.”
@@MarkWCorbett1 We both think annihilationism is the most reasonable fate for evil people. But you base your conclusion on biblical passages, whereas I base mine on just common sense fairness. It may be a workable approach to focus on those parts “most central to the Christian faith,” but I think that as a matter of principle, focusing on only the good parts of an ideology and ignoring the bad parts, is not a valid approach. I cannot do that. The bad parts are there. As noted, I give all my reasons for rejecting Christianity in this 23-minute video - “Why I Cannot Accept Jesus.” ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Mq1o70FKoyo.html
@@MarkWCorbett1 We both think annihilationism is the most reasonable fate for evil people. But you base your conclusion on biblical passages, whereas I base mine on just common sense fairness. It may be a workable approach to focus on those parts “most central to the Christian faith,” but I think that as a matter of principle, focusing on only the good parts of an ideology and ignoring the bad parts, is not a valid approach. I cannot do that. The bad parts are there. As noted, I give all my reasons for rejecting Christianity in this 23-minute video - “Why I Cannot Accept Jesus.” ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Mq1o70FKoyo.html
Saying if you do not believe in Christianity you are going to hell is false. You do not go to hell simply by being an Atheist. You do not go to hell simply by not believing in God. The main punishment of Hell is the state of self-exclusion from God.God will not force a person to be with him, if that person wants nothing to do with God. So , God gives that person what he wants, eternal separation. Who has been giving you this nonsense about Hell ?
Who? The Bible. John 3:18 “he who does not BELIEVE is condemned already, because he has not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Mark 16:16 “He who BELIEVES and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not BELIEVE will be condemned.” Who? Jesus, who used imagery of flames, fire, and furnace.
There is no life apart from God. The wicked will understand that and remain fixed in their choice and will give God permission to finally and ultimately depart from them and at this point they will cease to exist. It will be hell coming to this point, make no mistake about that. Jer. 8:3 And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts.
@Chris White Yeah, the world is full of people who believe irrational things, and believe what they want to believe for emotional or coping reasons. And the current wars are heart-rending. But, at the same time, there are also a lot of good people doing good things, and things are better today than during the Middle Ages. And I keep an attitude that finds life, nonetheless, full of good things also, whether sports, music, relationships. Thanks for your thoughts.
Enoch 62:15 Afterwards, their countenances shall be filled with darkness and confusion before the Son of man; from whose presence they shall be expelled, and before whom the sword shall remain to expel them
Enoch 62:16 Thus saith the Lord of spirits, This is the decree and the judgment against the princes, the kings, the exalted, and those who possess the earth, in the presence of the Lord of spirits
@@2994485 the book of Enoch is not the Bible, it is apocryphal. The Catholics include it in their Bible. Catholicism is not true Christianity, it is referred to in prophecy as the "great whore that sits on many waters," "Babylon," "the Mother of Harlots," "the man of sin," "the beast," etc. Catholicism is branded in the Bible as the antithesis of Christ/God, and the earthly seat of her power, Rome, is the seat of Satan in the earth. Modern Christianity, in Protestantism, is called "the false prophet," and is of the many daughters of the harlot, all connected to her through the pagan sabbath which they call the Christian sabbath, Sunday. The fourth commandment says to keep the 7th day holy. So much for that... Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [I speak to this passage in my previous post of today.] 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. The eschatological teachings of modern Protestantism (also fallen Babylon) are based upon the subversion of true Biblical interpretation as it was written and understood by the apostles, the persecuted church under Rome (pagan Rome and then under papal Rome of the Dark Ages), and by the great protestant reformers. The protestants were true at first but fell away again. Only a small remnant have pushed through, the true reformers numbering very few by the mid-nineteenth century. That subversion of Biblical hermeneutics was undertaken at the behest of the Catholic church, to take the heat off the papacy as so clearly delineated in the Scriptures. Modern theology is actually counter-reformationism. Jesuits were raised up to undo the reformation and have been quite successful. They were commissioned to come up with alternative schemes. Luis del Alcazar came up with preterism, which has fallen into obscurity. Francisco Ribera came up with futurism, which obtained a secure foothold and is today the underlying backbone of the mainstream Christianity with its plethora of aberrant doctrines, popularized by the likes of the Plymouth Brethren, Scofield, Lindsay, LaHaye, Jenkins, and many others. You can look up those two Jesuit deconstructionists and see for yourself that I am giving you true history. I encourage you, friend, to realize that your exploration of this subject is far from over. I respect what you have said in this presentation, but you are not done, by any means.
I think Islam is the worst of the major religions, because it condones violence. I read the Koran from cover to cover and I was not impressed. Full of lofty words and generalities. Full of threats of Hell. I asked an educated Muslim woman once if she is not bothered by all the threats of hell in the Koran. And she answered no, because there is more mention of heaven than hell. A wonderfully wise spiritual answer? Not to me. Not at all. Muslims do the same thing Christians do. They focus on the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff. I have a cousin who was married for a time to a Muslim, and her experience confirmed one of the major disproofs of Islam for me. It is indeed very male chauvinistic. She was a very educated woman but was reduced to staying in the house and serving tea.
Here is the part you missed: We don't know all of where Grace is but we do know where it can be found. You think "Believe in Jesus or go to hell." but that isn't the case. In clearly states in the bible that Christ is the way to the enternal kingdom where only few will enter but we don't know about what will happen with other people. We simply do not know. It is a mystery that only God knows. It's like this - I know there is a path to heaven but I can't say how God will judge others who will choose a different path or don't know about the path. So nobody is saying all Native Americans or Monks will get eternal torture. God knows us from our hearts not some total binary rationale that you are explaining here. Here's the other rational piece. This universe is created and is finite. We know that everything is dying and that we are in a cycle of a chain of events. Logic tells us that whatever created this world must be outside the causal chain of events, outside of space and time. Your spirit will go to that place outside of this space/time universe that we are in to a place of eternity. So there isn't another time based finite realm available to us. We will go to where the creator is, outside space/time, therefore whatever happens next must be infinite.
No one can go outside of space, time and matter, where Yah is. Christ Himself does not go back there anymore, for the incarnation brought Him into the brotherhood of humanity for eternity and He is fixed here, with us. Immanuel="God with us." Hell is the default state of anything or anyone that is outside of God's power and sustenance. It is "the grave," "the abode of the dead," in a metaphoric sense, for there is really no place like that--it is a state of non-existence. What virtually everyone misses is that we do not possess an eternal breath, spirit, soul, or anything of the sort. When we die we do not exist except as a memory file in God's mind, which will be brought back again, in one of two resurrections: John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. The grave, or death, is depicted as a sleep. This is what Jesus taught. Once we have this clearly fixed in our minds, we are in a good position to go on and examine other truths. Until then, we cannot arrive at harmony.
This comment would not show up in the normal place, so I am just entering it here: *DiscipleMaker* Torment and torture are not the same thing. You're issue is that you want God to lower His moral code down to your level. Also you start to end the discussion with a comment about how the conversation was cordial and then you end with attacking the person. Yeah, you came off as smug and not open to a discussion. @DiscipleMaker Torment and torture are listed as synonyms, not much difference. So you think it’s OK to torment someone endlessly? My moral code is much higher than your God’s, who condones slavery, orders genocides, and torments people without end. He was one the one who made the remark about cordiality and respect, and I corrected him. Cordiality OK, but respect for the idea of hell and people who believe in it, no. What’s smugness got to do with it? Nothing. Except you Christians think anyone who disagrees with you is, per se, smug.
It is not deranged, in fact Christians tend to play it down because the message is love, not threats. In the original universe all that existed was a single consciousness. We call that "God". God is a person like us, and being like us got lonely. "He" therefore created other independent consciousnesses he gave free will, (these are "people"). For there is no consciousness without free will and no free will without consciousness. In the real world there is only information, thought, consciousness, action and thought are one. A violent thought is equal to a violent action. About a third of these people misused their free will. They were restless and would not accept the rule of God and hated his world. They rebelled against him and there was a terrible thought war. As in the material world not all personalities are the same, they have different characters and strengths. A very powerful personality who was loyal to God defeated the rebels ("Michael" in English). God imprisoned the rebels in what we perceive as the material world. The purpose was not to punish but to put on trial. Our lives in the material world are our trials. Those who pass the trial of this temporary, fake, material world will be allowed back in to the "Kingdom Of God", as that life is called on Earth. When each person dies and leaves this theatre play, if they are seen as safe they will return to where they were. If they are seen as harmful, God will not or cannot, destroy a person once "He" has created it. To protect everyone else they will be wrapped up in a kind of bubble by themself, in which all their harmful thoughts are reflected back on themselves so that they do not harm others. This is what is called "Hell". Each person creates their own "Hell" with their own evil. The universe is only made of information, everything else is an illusion. Satan and the rebels have become very powerful now and built a kind of "Tower of Babel" in the world. The globalised economy. It has thus been necessary for God to send Michael 'down here', much as Emmanuel (Jesus) volunteered to 'come down here'. He has been sent to smash this globalised power and will destroy the system. A quarter of the world's population is to die in this war which will destroy a third of the world. This is a continuation 'on Earth' of the war that started in heaven. It cannot be long now.
Explain to me (succinctly) how torturing a sentient being severely, without end, is not morally and spiritually deranged. And by the way, of the millions of people throughout history, not 99%, but exactly fully 100%, have been wrong about the world being on the verge of ending. Yet, somehow you think you’re right.
@@2994485 Hey I'll post the scripture and the explanation... You will need to go into your settings to uncover it.. I've already tried to post but your settings wont allow them to be seen. Sometimes the plateform its self censors what is written and admin most of the time is ignorant of the comments being posted.. 😅😮😊 presently I've posted six or seven com 🎉ments that are being removed by yourself or the platform we are using
I think a lot of people would benefit from learning up on the Eastern Orthodox views on this. It is kinda painful to watch people talk about this if you are orthodox.
If you would scroll down you could see he even restored the comments removed by RU-vid. If you didn’t know, certain words on RU-vid are not allowed, and it will delete your comment automatically.
"those three interpretations are contradictory; they are mutually exclusive. So, to me the only logical conclusion is that the Bible is not a trustworthy book." So because there are 3 main ideas of a concept that disagree with one another, that automatically means all 3 are wrong? It couldn't possibly mean that 1 of the 3 is the correct view, and the "Biblical grounds" for the other 2 aren't actually legitimate? Strange conclusion, friend.
You’re making the logical argument that just because three opinions on a topic are contradictory, that does not mean ONE of them could not be right. Well, yeah, right, but you are ignoring context. We’re not talking about random opinions. We’re talking about the Bible which is allegedly inerrant according to conservative Christians. Therefore, it is not supposed to have ANY incorrect claims, especially for an issue so important. I did NOT say therefore all three are wrong; I said therefore all three cannot be right at the same time. And that the source for those contradictory claims is therefore not trustworthy. Say you bought a book on poison berries, and it says in the book in different places that berry X is fatally poisonous, AND it harmless, AND it is mildly toxic. What are you doing to do, cheerfully say, well, one could be right? Or are you going to say, geez, I don’t trust this book. Regardless of whether one of those claims might be true. Logically, the Bible cannot be inerrant if it says in one place “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Rev 20:10), yet in another place it says “into smoke they shall… vanish away.” (Ps 37:20). I am not arguing what the afterlife actually is; I am arguing that the “eternal conscious torment” interpretation is obscenely cruel, and that the Bible can’t be trusted. You didn’t even watch the video, did you?
@@2994485 lol no I didn’t finish your video because it’s a waste of time. You are clearly ignorant of how to read the Bible in context, just like many Christians. If you spent more than 5 seconds reading revelation, you would understand that it uses symbolic apocalyptic imagery in a vision to represent reality, and trying to read it as if it is entirely literal is error. Psalms uses poetic language because it is a collection of songs/poems, it’s not a scientific textbook. The fact that you are comparing poetic imagery in songs with hyperbolic symbolic imagery and are surprised that they don’t completely line up shows just how poor your academic understanding of the Bible is. So like *I* was pointing out, if you read the Bible correctly in context, the Biblical grounds of 2 of the positions fail to hold water. Calling the Bible untrustworthy just because you don’t understand it is not a valid argument
@@2994485 Lol no I didn’t finish your video because it’s clearly a waste of time. When I commented, I mistakenly gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you actually understood how to properly interpret the Bible in context, but clearly I was wrong. If you spent more than 5 seconds reading Revelation, you would understand that it is recounting symbolic apocalyptic imagery from a vision to represent reality, and trying to read it as if it is entirely literal is error. Psalms uses poetic language because it’s a collection of songs/poems, it’s not a scientific textbook. The fact that you’re comparing poetic imagery in songs with hyperbolic symbolic imagery and are surprised that they don’t completely line up with each other is evidence of just how poor your academic understanding of the Bible is. So like *I* was pointing out, if you read the Bible correctly in context, the “Biblical grounds” of 2 of the positions fail to hold water. Even if you don’t believe it is true, calling the Bible untrustworthy just because you’re too lazy to understand it is not a valid position.
@@socalkook370 The Christian ministers I talked to were very smart and well-educated, yet you think hearing their responses would be a waste of time. The issues I bring up with them are the same issues that have caused so many Christians, like myself, to become ex-Christians, yet you think it’s not worth knowing what their responses were. I’ve spent many hours studying Revelation, not “five seconds.” Why in the world would you think I do not understand it is predominantly symbolic? Of course, it is, but symbols point to an underlying reality. When Rev 20:10 says, “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever,” what is that symbolic of? It’s symbolic of conscious beings being tormented endlessly. “Eternal conscious torment” is historically the predominant interpretation of Hell by Christianity. If that interpretation is wrong, why did the Holy Spirit misguide Christianity so badly all these years? Me too lazy? I spend over 30 hours every week studying the Bible. Just because I come to different conclusions than you, that does not make me lazy. But I guess that’s standard operating procedure for many Christians: If someone disagrees with you, claim they are superficial, and feel free to gratuitously insult them. Do you have an idea of how “unchristian” that makes you when you do that? First Peter 3:15 says to engage with non-Christians “with meekness”; it does not say be sure to include “lol” so that you establish the fact that you do not respect anyone else’s opinion or sincerity. Why did William Lane Craig, Peter Kreeft, Hugh Ross, and Hank Hanegraaff think it was worth their time to talk to me for many hours (well over 20 hours total, and, invited back by two of those guys), if I am such a lazy, superficial skeptic? I’d take you more seriously if you treated me with more respect. Bottom line, you did what so many Christians do. You talked all around the subject, with strawman arguments, but avoided the relevant issue. Note my poison berry book analogy. If a book makes contradictory claims, it is not trustworthy. That is a solid argument for ANY book, regardless of whether I am lazy or not, or have read the Bible or not, or if Revelation is a symbolic book or a treatise on science. That’s the point that you are avoiding.
@@2994485 I came to the conclusion that you did not spend much time studying the Bible because of how weak your understanding of Revelation is and how inappropriate your comparison was in your response. If you spent many hours and still can't see the possibility that those two passages can be harmonious with one another, I don't know what to tell you. If you want me to address the subject directly, I will. I watched your video in full and it was exactly as I expected. Based on how you almost exclusively speak of the ECT view of hell, it sounds like you don't have much exposure with conditional immortality. CI is the other side of the coin of annihilationism stemming from the belief that man is not innately immortal (1 Cor 15:53-55) and as such will not live eternally in hell, nor be tormented forever. If you read the Bible with the (incorrect) underlying assumption that humans have an eternal soul or something of that sort, of course you come to the faulty conclusion of ECT. I agree that the ECT view of hell is inhumane, silly, and unbiblical and it astounds me how it has been the more popular view for so long. Fortunately, knowing which view of hell is correct is not a prerequisite to be a Christian. Revelation is highly symbolic, and yet you are still attempting to read it literally despite acknowledging that it is symbolic. Rev 20:10,14: "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever... Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." Earlier in Revelation, The devil is a 7 headed dragon, the beast is a leopard-lion-bear creature, and death and hades are actual horsemen. I don't know a single pastor, let alone christian that believes these symbols are literal, yet you (and many christians) seem to take the "tormented day and night" part of this passage full of symbols at face value as if it must be literal. Could this part mean something else? Fortunately we don't have to speculate what it means because we are told that "The lake of fire is the second death." The vision is interpreted for us, the wild imagery that John saw, in reality, *symbolizes* death. The imagery of eternal torment is no more a description of hell than the cows in Pharaoh's dream are a description of the 7 years in Genesis 41. Another common argument is that "eternal punishment" requires that the damned live forever in torment. In reality, the eternal punishment that the damned face is a death that is eternal, and will not be reversed (the wages of sin is death). Jesus *died* on the cross as atonement for sin, so that man did not have to *die* . There are many more arguments for ECT, all of which are better explained by conditional immortality. If you have specific questions, I don't mind trying to answer them for you. If I'm not meek enough for you, feel free to ignore me. But make no mistake, you aren't asking me to give the reason for the hope I have like 1 Peter 3:15, you are openly mocking the Bible. Let's not forget how Elijah insulted the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel and was still considered righteous, so don't try to play victim like you're some open-minded agnostic when you were the one that put out an inflammatory video telling christians they should be ashamed of themselves and haven't given their positions a fair shake. If you actually want to do your due diligence and listen to someone else who is even more knowledgeable than me, Chris Date has done extensive research and has his own website (rethinkinghell). Your poison berry book analogy is great, and I agree with the premise. I don't need to avoid it, I just disagree that the passages you showcased are contradictory because I understand them in their context, and you haven't given a good argument to the contrary
It has been said that forgiveness by God was not extended for Lucifer cause there was no ignorance nor imperfection.. There is hell but it's only for those who knew their eternal consequences when they still chose to go against God...and it eats em up.
Hi Miklos, In one of your comments here you said, "...hell; my God has everyone gets what they deserve, proportionately." Let's imagine that there is a criminal who has raped and killed ten of your beloved children. For the sake of justice, please explain what you think might be a proportionate sentence or punishment for such an individual. (I would like to know what you think a fair sentence would be. Please keep in mind that some human judges have and do sentence men to hundreds or thousands of years in prison, although the convicts are unable to serve such sentences due to their short lifespans. Please Google "longest prison sentences" before you answer. Thanks.) I look forward to your reply!
You are not at all understanding the reason for Hell and the Lake of Fire. First of all, there are no "good" people. Mankind's standard of good is very low. "I haven't raped or killed anyone, so I believe I am a pretty good person." But God's standard of good is very high....perfection. And since we have a sinful nature passed down to us through Adam and Eve it is impossible for anyone to be "good". That is why the holy scriptures tell us..."As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” (Romans 3:10-12) Mankind tends to downplay "sin", which is the breaking of the moral law of God, the 10 commandments. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...(perfection). Guilty as charged. God is Love, but God hates sin. It is so contrary to His nature and attributes. For God is Holy, Righteous, and Just. You need to see the gravity of your sin. And God is so serious about sin that He is paying you in death for it. For the wages of sin is death. Hell is a literal place made for the Devil and his angels. Many sinners will end up in Hell because they died in their sins. And Jesus made that clear..."Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24) The un-regenerate mind tries to justify the unfairness of Hell. And yet those who go want nothing to do with the love of God that is in Christ Jesus the Lord. The "gnashing of teeth" there are those who are angry and curse God for sending them there. And all along they could have repented, and totally trusted Jesus to save them.
You think there are no “good” people? I think that is a horribly negative worldview. I’m not a big fan of the human race, but there ARE some good people. If your God hates sin, why is He condoning slavery in Leviticus 25:44-46?
@@2994485There are lots of people who do good deeds. But that does not make them good. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"...perfection. "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) And of course this is impossible for anyone. And that is why YOU so desperately need the Savior Jesus Christ to save and rescue you from all your sin. When you are born again by the Spirit of God you are given a new nature. You are a new creation "in Christ". The dominion, enslavement and curse of sin is then broken over your life. And then and only then are you able to live a victorious life over sin. Jesus said, "If you love Me you will keep my commandments." Again, only possible with the regenerated life that Jesus Christ alone can give you. The slavery of the Bible can not where be compared to the Trans1 Atlantic slave trade of the 1800's. Slavery within Israel was "indebted servitude". A person could pay off their debt to someone else if they became a bond servant in their household. Other slavery taken on by Israel over other conquered nations was a great benefit to those who were devastated by war and the loss of a man who was over a household. There were no social security programs available. Without support of a master the results could be destitution, sickness, and death.
There seems to be biblical support for reincarnation which first century Christians AND 'ethnic Judeans' both seemed to believe in, suggestive not only that the mind survives corporeal death, but that we don various fleshly clothes, thru a series of earthly incarnations, down thru the centuries... That said, the bible also describes, in the book of Revelation and elsewhere, 'the 2nd death' , wherein the seemingly incorrigibly wicked are given one final choice, presumably adoration of the divinity within all things (also involving repentance for sin) OR self-annihilation, aka 'THE DEATH OF THE SOUL' ... If memory serves, the bible describes a realm of eternal or outer darkness, reminiscent of a black hole wherein the mind, presumably devoid of sensory input, IMPLODES... A permanent cessation of consciousness could indeed be viewed as a kind of everlasting punishment, akin to some conceptualizations of HELL
Revelation 20:10 would disprove the idea of a permanent cessation of consciousness. “And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Bottom line for me is that the Bible is a contradictory mess about the afterlife for evil people or unbelievers. And so, I choose to reject Christianity.
No Revelation 20: 10 would not necessarily negate the idea of a cessation of consciousness. Let's suppose that the 2nd death, aka the death of the soul, an idea also supported elsewhere in scripture, is ONLY for the incorrigibly wicked ... and , even then, this is something the soul must chose for itself... rather than being forced to empathically experience all the suffering one has subjected others to... Let's suppose you repent of your sins, but still retain the knowledge, plus the stigma of what you have done, whether as a result of action or inaction, that resulted in the suffering and death of multitudes of innocent children... So long as you retain this awareness, this knowledge, this could indeed be seen as a kind of eternal punishment... a kind of never-ending torment... Could it not? @2994485 @@2994485
"And so, I choose to reject Christianity' Hmmm... Let's not throw out baby with the bathwater... The bible wouldn't be the work of human hands if it was perfect... If it was 'the literal and inerrant word of God'... Presumably, it contains many misconceptions, evidence of bias, misogyny, etcetera... But the bible is also a supernatural book imo, showing evidence of divine influence, of clairvoyance, of 'declaring the end from the beginning' which is why we're told to 'rightly divide the word of God'... Something which may be well beyond our ken, but at least we can try... The bible is the best selling book of all time... The cross the most powerful symbol of all time... The whole world keeps time, marking the passage of the years, however imprecisely, from Anno Domini... Jesus is credited with saying, 'heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will not pass away'... Rather astute for an itinerant preacher whose movement, by rights, should have died with him ... but didn't? And we could say something similar, hindsight being 2020, about the suffering messiah depicted in Isaiah 53... if that was no accident , but part of divine plan, we need to take HIS Story seriously... Unless you can 'explain away' the otherworldly image on the Shroud of Turin, or why billions are still so influenced by an individual who never wrote a single word insofar as we know... I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the apparent signs of omniscience, of an otherworldly influence, in scripture... Maybe you're just expecting the bible to deliver more than it was meant to??? PEACE OUT @@2994485
"And so, I choose to reject Christianity' Hmmm... Let's not throw out baby with the bathwater... The bible wouldn't be the work of human hands if it was perfect... If it was 'the literal and inerrant word of God'... Presumably, it contains many misconceptions, evidence of bias, misogyny, etcetera... But the bible is also a supernatural book imo, showing evidence of divine influence, of clairvoyance, of 'declaring the end from the beginning' which is why we're told to 'rightly divide the word of God'... Something which may be well beyond our ken, but at least we can try... The bible is the best selling book of all time... The cross the most powerful symbol of all time... The whole world keeps time, marking the passage of the years, however imprecisely, from Anno Domini... Jesus is credited with saying, 'heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will not pass away'... Rather astute for an itinerant preacher whose movement, by rights, should have died with him ... but didn't? And we could say something similar, hindsight being 2020, about the suffering messiah depicted in Isaiah 53... if that was no accident , but part of divine plan, we need to take HIS Story seriously... Unless you can 'explain away' the otherworldly image on the Shroud of Turin, or why billions are still so influenced by an individual who never wrote a single word insofar as we know... I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the apparent signs of omniscience, of an otherworldly influence, in scripture... Maybe you're just expecting the bible to deliver more than it was meant to??? PEACE OUT @@2994485
If one is not going to believe in Hell, or the God of the Bible, why on earth would one believe in any kind of afterlife, or any religion? I think it’s pretty clear, to me anyway, it’s all nonsense.
It isn't nonsense, but to make sense of it requires honest determination, effort and time. This man has not yet found the way to make sense of it and I understand why. There are very few Christians that understand it. Only a tiny remnant of the reformation understand.
@@MrKevinStraub It’s not that I don’t understand it. I understand it and reject it. See my video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Mq1o70FKoyo.html for my reasons. I compare the Christian God to my God, point by point, and the God that I believe in is so much more plausible than the Christian God.
@@2994485 "A true faith finds its place in the man's heart, not in his mind. Antichrist will be disclosed by the believers having their faith in their hearts; those with their faith in their mind follow him." St. Gabriel Urgebadze of Georgia
@@2994485 “Live simply and without thinking too much, like a child with his father. Faith without too much thinking works wonders. The logical mind hinders the Grace of God and miracles. Practice patience without judging with the logical mind.” - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Hel is actually not Biblical. It is a completely pagan concept. Hel was a Norse goddess who ruled the underworld, Helheim. When you died, you would kneel before the throne of Hel and she would judge your life and determine which layer of Helheim you would spend eternity in. The top layer was like Christian heaven and the bottom layer was freezing cold, which is where the term 'cold as hell' comes. Hell is not in the original Hebrew or Greek of the Bible, which is why so many Bible translations have come out without the word Hell at all. It was erroneously translated from death, grave and Gehenna. The teaching of hell is primarily and erroneously based on the rich man and Lazarus and the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is figurative language (like the baker and cupbearer who had dreams when they were thrown into prison with Joseph in the Old Testament) which requires an interpretation in order for it to make sense. The interpretation is in Revelation 21:8 - The lake of fire "IS" the second death. Ordinal numbers (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.) denote similarity. If the first death means 'cessation of life', the most logical conclusion is that the 2nd death also means cessation of life. Most preachers dishonestly claim that death means 'eternal torture'. It does not. Three things are thrown into the lake of fire: Death, Satan and the unredeemed. Death is completely destroyed and is no more (1 Corinthians 15: 24-26, Revelation 21:4). Satan knows that his time is short (Revelation 12:12) until he is also completely destroyed (Ezekiel 28:11-19, Hebrews 2:14). The unredeemed are also destroyed as immortality is a gift only given to those who have faith in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:53-55). Thankfully (as it is a horrible teaching), the unredeemed cannot be punished on an ongoing basis because they do not have immortality (which would be a requirement for ongoing punishment). The Bible teaches a contrast of life vs. death from cover to cover (not life vs eternal torture) - think John 3:16, Romans 6:23 for example. The Lake of fire is the second and FINAL death. Smoke rises forever and ever is very strong and definitive language that means a destruction is complete, final and irreversible. What has been destroyed will NEVER exist again. It is used in the Old Testament to show complete and final destruction (Isaiah 34:10). Torment in this passage of the Lake of Fire is related to the torment of knowing they have lost out on life. There is nothing about the word torment that requires it to be an ongoing or long-suffering experience. Jesus NEVER talked about hell. He talked about 'fiery Gehenna'. He was speaking to a Jewish audience and referencing the Old Testament. The specific reference is related to evil King Manasseh who was engaging in child sacrifices (through fire) to Molech in the valley of Hinnom (2 Chronicles 28:3). This valley was re-named the Valley of Slaughter (Jeremiah 19). The Jewish mind understood this to mean a reference to death/destruction, not eternal torture. Gnashing of teeth is a Hebrew idiom which means 'one enemy getting ready to destroy another. It is used several places in the Bible to show this (Lamentations 2:16, Psalm 35:16, Psalm 37:12, Acts 7:54). If a person wants to take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus literally and build a major doctrine on it (which would be deplorable exegesis), they would come up with the doctrine of purgatory, not hell.....but again, that would be horrible exegesis. Simply put, it is impossible to find a preacher who can teach the doctrine of eternal torment in hell using scripture alone WITHOUT changing the definition of 'death' to mean 'eternal torture' AND without unbiblically assigning immortality to everyone (1 Corinthians 15:53-55). Most preachers actually know this and lie about it - trust me - I've fought them and they are a horribly dishonest pit of vipers. They are the reason this atrocious doctrine continues to be believed by so many.
Lots of good info. I’m glad you agree that eternal conscious torment is a horrible doctrine. But, isn’t the bottom line that the Bible is a contradictory mess about the afterlife? And did not Jesus fail in his responsibility to make sure this cruel doctrine did not get propagated? And where is the alleged Holy Spirit to properly guide Christianity in all this? My resolution is to reject Christianity and believe in a more rational God of my own understanding.
@@2994485 Yes, lots of great questions presented here that I think we have all pondered at some point. I think you should absolutely do what is best for you and am confident that you are seeking out information that will help you make the best decision for yourself. Best of luck as you move forward.
I just put up a lengthy comment like yours. I see we are on pretty much the exact same page. Few hold the doctrine of annihilationism in a correct dimension of understanding, i.e., that it comes from the wicked quitting God finally and decisively, not by any act of divine power. God does not destroy anyone in a literal sense. He allows them to destroy themselves. It is rather an honoring of free will, in the end, and a complete withdrawal of divine power at the request of the wicked, after a fearsome period of processing the ramifications of their lifetime of choice and the final conclusion of the matter. This takes place at the end of a one thousand year period after the second advent of Christ and the destruction of the planet. You likely know what I am talking about, here, I would imagine, as a reader of "The Great Controversy." The wicked, at the time of judgment, the battle of Gog and Magog, will not choose life. They will realize they had their time for that and it is past and THEY WOULD NOT CHANGE IT NOW EVEN IF THEY COULD. The final judgment is executed only because this is what they and all the living remainder in the universe need to see it. Only after this will the universe be eternally secure from rebellion ever arising again. Jer. 8:3 And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts.
Wrong. This is what the National Museum of Denmark have to say about Odin, Tor and the other Norse Gods: " Today, most agree that the stories are to be dated from about 1000 AD"
I’m guessing you mean I am talking to conservative Christians who believe in Hell. And that I’d get a different response from liberal Christians, who don’t particularly believe in Hell. Yeah, that’s a different conversation. I focus on conservative Christians because I think they are the ones who cause harm. But here are my interactions with liberal Christians: "Arguing with Liberal Ministers" ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-njfTKYUm7uw.html
@@2994485 No, I mean experts on the dogma. For instance there are various debates on RU-vid, among people who could answer you better, more articulately and able to explain it so it could be understood. Much of the disconnect is misunderstanding IMO, which is naturally destructive to ideas.
@@wendys390 Oh, OK. But most of the people I talked to were smart, well-educated ministers. Plus, if you check my website, I’ve talked to William Lane Craig, Hugh Ross, Hank Hanegraaff, and Peter Kreeft. You won’t find smarter, more educated people than these guys. (Probably 100 books written among them.) And, I concluded that they did not have good answers to my questions. Believing in a general God, not tied to any particular religion, is the way to go, in my opinion. www.confrontingbelievers.com/
No, it is NOT. As mentioned in the video, it is ALSO eternal conscious torment. You are soft-pedaling Hell by willfully ignoring Jesus’s imagery of fire, flames, and furnace.
@@skipe94 What!? When did I ever say that being separated from God would be fun and dandy? As usual, that’s not the point, as well as being untrue. The point is that the concept of Hell is horribly cruel. And you need to explain to me how Hell is a fair and just idea, otherwise you are just blowing smoke to avoid the issue.
@2994485 it's not cruel lol. You literally can choose to live a life that brings you closer to God or you can choose to deny God but there's natural consequences to it. It's like saying it's cruel that smokers have a higher chance of cancer or obese people have a higher chance of having cancer. Is God supposed to just deliver you from your own sin when you choose to sin and not repent? You're mad that God gave you a free choice to sin, and you're mad it has a consequence.
I don’t understand your comment. What does “this” refer to? Are you making light of the idea of Hell, and that only crybabies are bothered by it? Are you a Christian or a non-Christian? Please explain.
@@WeLiveInside7 11 : 💫 🌏 King James Bible Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the Circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: GOD'S WORD Translation Isaiah 40:22 God is enthroned above the earth, and those who live on it are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the sky like a canopy and spreads it out like a tent to live in. Good News Translation Isaiah 40:22 It was made by the one who sits on his Throne above the earth and ( beyond the sky;) the people below look as tiny as ants. He stretched out the sky like a curtain, like a tent in which to live. Genesis 1 verse 2 the earth was without form and void . “darkness was on the face of the deep” ✍️🎵👇🏻🕳 1 Samuel 2:9 “He keeps the feet of His godly ones, But the wicked ones are silenced in darkness; For not by might shall a man prevail 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits 🕳 of darkness, reserved for judgment 2 Peter 2:17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. Job 10:22 The land of utter gloom as darkness itself, Of deep shadow without order, And which shines as the darkness. Matthew 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth 😬😭😢😓😥😰😱😨 KJV Revelation7:17 (For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne ) shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. 💫✍️🐑🎵😃 And those not written in the book 📖 of life, lost to death and sin 😔😞😟😕🙁☹️😣😖🥺😢😭😬😧😮🤧🥵😨😱😰😳 🔥 KJV Revelation 14:10 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be (tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in 🗣The Presence Of The Lamb) Jeremiah 30:24 24 The Lord shall not turn away the ire of (his) indignation, till he do, and ((ful]fill the thought of his heart;))❤️ in the last days ye shall understand those things 🙏 🔥😇🌪❤️ 🔥🌪🌬💨✝️🎵🌧🌧🌨🌨🌨🌨🌨🎵🌨🌨🌨🌨🎵 God bless 🎵 🔥💫🌀 🎵 👇 🎵 🎵 💍 🎵 🌀😇🔥 ☝🏼 ❤️🚪👈👀🎵💍✝️
You are loved The THRONE Of The KING, the holy Lamb of God "Christ Jesus The Bright Morning Star" 💫 🌏 💫 ⬇️ 🕳 🎵 🎵 🎵 🎵🔥😇🌪🎵 ❤️ 🚪 🎵 🎵 🎵 The Morning Star is the Circle inscribe upon the face of the deep, his throne he prepare upon the winds of his spirit. 💫✍️🎵 The circle above the earth, beyond the sky 💫 🌏 The Ancient of Gate Jesus The Bright Morning Star lifts up with the Ruach Ha-Kodesh ..The Holy Spirit . Your CROWN your told not to let anyone steal from you because of ignorance The Morning Star you will be given.. 💥 Tic tic boom 🔥💫🌀 🎵 👇 🎵 🎵 💍 🎵 🌀😇🔥 ☝🏼 ❤️🚪👈👀🎵💍 The Throne you will be set down in with Jesus for over coming 😎 you were chosen to be holy and blameless in him, in love (Before the foundation of the world)😀 💫✍️🎵 Behold I stand at the door🎵🚪💫🔥and knock🎵✊🎵, any man open the door🚪♥️👀 I will lift the Ancient Gate none can open, no man can shut. 🔥😇💍🎵📯 and come in an sup with. On that day the Morning Star 💫will rise in your hearts ❤🚪 when entering the narrow pathway, few find 👀 🔥😇🌀
1: The SOUND Of The Ruach Ha-Kodesh🎵 “that moves Upon the face of the deep” The breath the wind 🌬 💨 of the Spirit of God that moved upon the face of the deep.. Sheol NKJV . Proverbs 8:27 I was there when He established the heavens, when “He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,” 💫✍️🎵 Brenton Septuagint Translation Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heaven, I was present with him and when he prepared his throne upon the winds Isaiah 28:5.6 5On that day the LORD of Hosts will be a CROWN OF GLORY a diadem of splendor to the remnant of His people, 6a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment, and a strength to those who repel the onslaught at the “Gate” 💥 Tic tic boom 🔥💫🌀 🎵 👇 🎵 🎵 💍 🎵 🌀😇🔥 ☝🏼 ❤️🚪👈👀🎵💍 New King James Version Joel 2:11 The LORD gives 🎵voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; Who can endure it🎵? Isaiah 30:30-31 🎵 And Jehovah shall cause His glorious voice to be heard 🎵, and the bringing down of His arm shall be seen with raging anger and flame of a devouring fire, cloudburst and storm and hailstones. 31) For through the voice 🎵 of Jehovah, the Assyrian shall be beaten down, who struck with a rod. Deuteronomy 28 KJV And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: 🎵 😱😣🙁😟😳😨😥😓 Gods Presence was The Mountain of Fear for most of the Jew Have you forgotten what happened to the people at the foot of the mountain 🏔 🎵 Crying begging pleading dying locked out of the proposal 🎵 No Crown, no Throne no Ancient Gate🎵to the Temple of the Lord Trembling in fear rejecting the presence and SOUND of God Almighty🎵 🔥🌪🌬💨🎵🏔🎵 The Mountain of fear🎵 🎵 😨🙄😢😰😭😱😳 And 🎵 the Mountain of Joy 🔥😇🌪 🎵 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice 🎵speaking words that those who heard😳 it begged, that no further word be spoken to them, 🎵 20 because they could not bear 😱what was commanded 🎵 26 At that time his voice shook the earth,🎵 🎵 but now he has 🎵promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens” 🎵 Jeremiah 30:23 🎵 23 Lo! the whirlwind of the Lord, a strong vengeance going out, a tempest falling down, shall rest in the head of wicked men (shall rest upon the heads of the wicked).🎵 🎵 😱 King James Bible Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me (in) my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father (in) his throne 🔥💫🌪🌬💨🎵 Fear and terror trembling await the enemy and the servants there of The title Ruach Ha-Kodesh is given to the leader who intends to join us, to clear boundaries which will allow the least of us to be set apart and invited to pass through a doorway into a place where God will identify Himself to us. This leader first appears in Genesis Chapter 1 verse 2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. This leader, here called the Spirit of God, is literally (the wind of God or the breath of God) and was instrumental in the creation account. In the ancient world soul and spirit are both frequently denoted by wind or breath and we can see that this Spirit was indeed God The Bible says there was a sound like wind. Suddenly a SOUND like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. ESV, KJV, NLT-refer to the SOUND that accompanied the Spirit🎵 Scripture tells us the noise of the Spirit was so loud that people outside the Upper Room heard it, too. A SOUND of Violence Roaring, with “A Rushing, Mighty Wind.” But when they arrived they found no tables blown over, no destruction-only the disciples, carried on the inner wind of God 🔥🌪🌬💨🎵 Ezekiel 3:13 And I heard the sound of the wings of the living beings touching one another and the sound of the wheels beside them, 🎵 (even a great rumbling sound.)🎵 Ezekiel 10:5 Moreover, the sound of the wings of the cherubim was heard as far as the outer court (like the voice of God Almighty when He speaks).🎵 Ezekiel 3:12🎵 Then the Spirit 🎵lifted me 🎵up, and I heard a Great Rumbling Sound behind me, “Blessed be the Glory Of The Lord in His Place.🎵, 🎵 To the Servant Friend of The King if you can’t find 👀the open door 🚪❤️to your CROWN which is also a Gate then one will never find the Morning Star 💫 🙌 heads up ⬆️ you need to be able to hear 👂 the Voice the SOUND 🎵of the one calling you, heard with the ear 👂 of a KING . To find the Throne Room Of God 💫 ⬇️ 🕳 🎵 🎵 🎵 🎵🔥😇🌪🎵 ❤️ 🚪 🎵 🎵 🎵 Philips NT Romans 12:20.21 ... these are God’s words: ‘Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him; if he thirsts, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head’. Don’t allow yourself to be overpowered with evil. Take the offensive-overpower evil by good See you at the Wedding repent before Job 19:8-9 8 He has blocked my way so I cannot pass; he has shrouded my paths in darkness. 9 He has stripped me of my honour and 🔥😇🌪 (removed the CROWN from my head) 🥵 🔥 Accompanying the KING 👀 through the Open Door 🚪❤️of the heart with Spirits Eyes 👀 Ascend the hidden inner pathway to the Crown 🔥😇🌪Gate to the Throne Room Throne Room of God the Eternal Morning Star That the Almighty give each of us for not allowing someone to take YOUR Crown from you. ..🔥✝️🌪 because he with his Authority is coming Through the Word Lead by Spirit taught by many about The Holy Lamb Jesus Christ of Nazareth 1st an only Son of The Father prophecy to come 600 years before born My understanding he is the One ☝🏼 who walk in the garden 🚶♂️ the 1st and only Son of God that provided the blue print for Adams manifest flesh, for all of us. The One who sit on The Throne in Daniel with hair like wool and white as snow The One known as The First ☝🏼 One of his names title “The Ancient Of Days “ The father sent him the 1st and only Son Jesus Christ born of virgin a through the Spirit Of God, and died for our sin, Resurrected Risen Triumphant Raised from out of death and hades, because the father love us.
2 Isaiah 22: 21-25 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 🎵 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder;🎵 so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.🎵📯💍😇 23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house.😇 🅾️✍🔥 24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons. 25 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, 🎵and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the Lord hath spoken it Revelation 9:11, Abaddon many equate this angel to an agent of Satan, The Interpreter’s Bible says: “Abaddon, is an angel not of Satan but of God, performing his work of destruction at God’s bidding.” Revelation 1:18 Christ Jesus states: “I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” Christ’s power to destroy, including the destruction of Satan, is shown in Hebrews 2:14, which says; “through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil.” he is clearly identified as God’s appointed Destroyer, Executioner. Revelation 19:11-16 NW I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are “many” diadems (Crowns) He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name, The Word of God 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, KING of kings and LORD of Lords
So you believe in life prison sentence and consider yourself a compasionate person! Fool yourself thanks! As if you define the existence of the criteria of compasssion God bless you!
Well, I never gave my opinion about life prison sentences. But I am not against them. I certainly think the general public needs to be protected from serial murderers. What would you do? Let them go free? I have compassion for victims and families, not murderers. Then, you make an argument that I often hear, that I am making myself God, or the arbiter of everything. No, I’m giving my opinion. It is a very false argument that you make, that I am making myself God, because, per se, I am disagreeing with your perception of God. Are you making yourself God by disagreeing with Allah and the Koran? Of course not. Are you a giant ego, because you think you’re wiser than Allah and the Koran? No. You are disagreeing with the Muslim perception of God, which you have every right to do. (Islam, by the way, condemns you to Hell for believing Jesus is God, which is blasphemy.) I am not regarding myself wiser than God. I am regarding my perception of God to be more plausible than the perception of barbarians from 2,000 years ago. Like I say in the video, I will never submit to a God who approves of slavery, orders genocides, or has a Hell. I think my God is much better than yours. His only theology is to be a good person. He accepts good atheists and people of other religions. Yours, does not.
HELLO! more reasonable to accept the words of "barbarians" who observed with their own eyes Jesus from the dead@@2994485and by the way, you are free to submit or not to God, He will not force you, God is SOVEREIGN! You are not focusing,, (Joh 17:3) Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent. (Jas 1:13) Don't blame God when you are tempted! God cannot be tempted by evil, and he doesn't use evil to tempt others. The is a GOD-GIVEN solution to hell! Stop complaining God bless you!
What am I ignorant about? Tell me, specifically, because I do not know what you are talking about. Make a valid argument for Hell. Otherwise, you are making an ad hominem attack and simply saying I am necessarily ignorant solely because I disagree with you. Like so many Christians, you are not making an argument at all, but just spouting empty generalizations. I won’t mention the arrogance your comment is dripping with.
Catholics didn't believe that invincible ignorance could get a non-Catholic into heaven until at least the 19th century, probably the 20th century (except for a very few early church fathers like Justin Martyr or Gregory of Nyssa). As for perfect contrition, if I harm someone and later apologize and make it up to him, how is that not good enough? Why do I have to be sorry because I offended God and not because I harmed the person himself?
From commenter josephkrohl, I see that I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were labeling ME invincibly ignorant and incapable of contrition. But it seems you are citing the Catholic doctrine of “invincible ignorance” (that a person is not culpable if there is no way he could have known Christianity is the truth). And the idea of “perfect contrition” (that one is sincerely sorry for offending God, not sorry just because of fear of punishment). However, how does that make Hell an acceptable idea? Decent atheists are still going to Hell. And decent people who knew about Christianity but still rejected it are still going to Hell. Gandhi comes to mind. What makes Hell a reasonable idea to you, instead of an obscenely cruel one?
No, I’m not. I think you are. If there is a real God, I’m sure He is not happy with the cruel, unloving, unjust concept of Hell that you embrace. What is wrong with you? You think torturing people forever is a loving thing to do?
@@2994485 you’re far too intelligent for me to argue with. But I will tell you that I know more about you, than you do about me. I would recommend you acquire a large amount of psychedelics and put your theories to the test.
@@UnpopularOpinion42 I don’t follow your argument at all, other than you think I’m going to be surprised to find that Christianity is true, and hell is real. I don’t think so at all, for all the reasons I give on my website.
@@2994485 you must be dense. I just told you I’m not arguing with you. Go take psychedelics and fend for yourself self smarty pants. Nothing to be scared of, it’s not addictive.
Hell is the grave i imagine you know what a grave is so now you know what hell is BUT Yeshua holds the keys of death and hell so it's imperative to come to the knowledge of that.... God sent his Son into the world to defeat death by his death and giving his life and blood and through HIM who knows LIFE God in mercy and grace will bestow LIFE true LIFE! now this probably doesn't sound rational but it is what it is. 😊
I mean he really did present a good case for the problem of hell. Hell can’t at the same time be annihilation, eternal torment, and universalism. If the Holy Spirit has guided historical Christian’s in the right direction, then eternal torment is the hell we ought to assume is true. The speaker argues that such an interpretation is immoral.
Biblically, Hell is NOT just a grave. Rev. 20:10. You are soft-pedaling Hell. Also, if I were to simply assert that Allah holds the keys of death and hell, that would not convince you at all. Yet, you think a simple assertion is enough. You have to provide an argument, not just make an assertion.
@@phillip-englandannihilationism is where the correct path is found and all other interpretations must be subject to that one and brought into harmony with it. Which is quite possible if one is willing to put in the time to see it.
