Debating Therapy Culture & Gen Z - Abigail Shrier 

Hello you savages. Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - chriswillx.com/books/ Here's the timestamps: 00:00 The Modern Mental Health Crisis 05:21 Are Therapists the Problem? 08:53 Do We Just Need to Connect to Our Feelings More? 14:39 Does Therapy Make Mental Health Worse? 22:17 Gen-Z Are Learning to Be Avoidant 27:31 Finding a Sweet Spot With Therapy 33:27 The Paradox in Depression Treatment 37:47 Therapy Culture Vs Bad Therapy 43:19 Are Smartphones & Climate Change to Blame? 51:23 The Impact of Single-Parent Households 55:04 Schools Making Parents Into Enemies 1:01:28 Overuse of the Word ‘Trauma’ 1:05:57 Is Mindfulness a Better Way? 1:14:34 Kids Are Too Over-Medicated 1:19:31 A Better Way Forward 1:23:35 Where to Find Abigail

'Stop obsessing about their happiness. Start focusing on their strength.' And there it is.

I have been fully immersed in this therapeutic nightmare with my two very hyperactive boys. One boy was kicked out of a preschool, and I was told to get him play therapy. We tried it, and we also tried a few of the therapeutic like parents coaching intensives. Some of these ideas work, some don't, and most make parenting feel exhausting. We stopped all this. Removed every screen in our home that was accessible to them, told them to go outside, setup rules and boundaries we enforce for proper behavior at, for example, the dinner table. Sometimes, they are still energetic and crazy, but our lives are all much less stressful. The meltdowns are now infrequent, they can sit quietly at the dinner table to eat. They play with toys. After reading Abigail's book, I had my older boy (the one who was kicked out of pre-school) order from the meat counter and check out. We are planning to have him get some groceries this summer when we have a planned vacation. Expectations, no screens, and time outdoors playing mostly unsupervised in our yard has been a God send for our sanity.

I saw a psychologist for 2 years and she kept me a victim. I left her a found a new family counselor and was able to work through my trauma and issues within 6 months. She gave me tools to not dwell on my trauma. I am so thankful.

I believe Abigal is spot on when she says that everything is anxiety now. Younger adults and teens have been so pathologized and sheltered that many cannot deal with the basics of social interaction. Uncomfortable feelings like nervousness, embarrassment, etc. are very important to make you resilient.

I’m a social worker who works with children and adolescents and the most common thing that I see that is causing issues is fatherlessness. 90%+ of the kids that I see (if I were to guess) don’t have a father, or their father is abusive. They are labeled with oppositional defiant disorder and/or ADHD when in reality, they are not given the care, patience, attention, etc. that they need from a father. ODD is a dumb diagnosis, in my opinion, because it labels the kid as ‘bad kid’ when the truth is that they are a stressed/scared/attention-starved kid. I’ve never met a kid labeled with ODD that had a solid parental foundation.

Finally, a podcast that wasn't brought to me by Betterhelp

@ChrisWillX I love your pod, but today's episode illustrates pretty clearly you don't have a kid in the public school system. Imagine this: - You have a high school kid whose parents were divorced a decade ago when he was tiny - He's fine, the parents get along, custody is all worked out, and life is pretty normal - But at the start of every school year, a school therapist passes around a mandatory questionnaire - On it, kids are asked if they have divorce in their life, if a family member or pet has ever died, and so on - If the kid answers truthfully (yup, parents are divorced), he is placed in "trauma group" - "Trauma group" meets once a week on a mandatory basis to help kids to "integrate their feelings" - They are pulled out of the activities/classes the other kids get to do so that they can attend "trauma group" - Everyone else knows they are in "trauma group" - In weekly "trauma group," they are asked to reveal their feelings about their trauma (i.e. the divorce a decade ago) - Every week, they must emote about it - When our kid emotes, he leaves feeling worse, and it's really the only time he thinks about the divorce any longer, he'd just as soon move on - If our kid fails to emote in "trauma group," it's taken as repression / failure to integrate, and he's referred to individual therapy - If he finally says he's had it up to here and refuses to talk about the divorce week after week for a decade, he's referred to individual therapy for anger management - If at the start he lies on the questionnaire and says nope, no divorce, but staff know, it's seen as a reason to be referred for therapy (avoidance! denial!) The rest of the time the kid is fine. But "trauma group" forces him to re-live his parents divorce weekly, years after it happened, and to emote, even when it's fake and he doesn't feel like it, and marks him as a "trauma survivor," both to himself and to his peers, and at the same time *separates him* from his peers regularly to do this "trauma stuff." And all the kid wants is to move on. But as the school therapist has told his parents, it's important that he learn to "express and integrate his emotions" and "not repress things" and so on. Do you see the problem now? He didn't really mind when the kindergarten counselor talked to him when his parents got divorced all those years ago. But after 10 years of having to cry about it weekly and being labeled a "trauma survivor" in public over and over again about something he now feels is totally normal, he is frustrated beyond belief. This is child abuse, carried out by the same people, of the same mindset, who are driving a whole bunch of activism on a whole bunch of issues. It's a kind of middle-class, largely white, largely female "saviorism" that comes originally from a kind of nurturing instinct but long ago turned into devouring people whole as it's form of nurturing.

I've been saying this for 25 years! When I was a teenager they started advertising medications on tv, then all of a sudden all my friends and schoolmates were being diagnosed left and right with anxiety, depression, ADHD, you name it. I knew it wasn't them though, it was the doctors and medical establishment convincing people they were ill when they actually weren't. I'm glad this conversation is happening now. It sickens me to see the overmedicated population we've become

I have been a teacher for 17 years. The coddling and validating of emotional Dysregulation is wild. I have watched kids cry because of the high expectations (going to all their classes). It’s a sad waste of potential.

I work at a high school and I agree 1000% with Abigail. Kids these days can’t deal with normal life and normal developmental challenges.

My 9 year old son has very significant ADHD. He doesn't really have "behavior problems" but his executive functioning is very impacted. He can not stay still at all. It's like he's crawling out of his skin all the time. He can't focus on one thing for more than a minute or two. He has a lot of difficulty keeping himself and his thoughts organized, etc. Regular therapy doesn't work for him at all. He has to sit still, focus on the therapist and talk to her. He just doesn't have the ability to stay focused long enough for it to be productive. We are lucky to have access to adventure therapy in our area. They do all kinds of adventure activities out in the middle of a forested area. They have ziplining, rock climbing, high ropes courses, fishing, kayaking, fort building. The focus isn't on feelings, but being outside in the fresh air with other kids completing psychically and mentally challenging tasks, and learning to deal with what comes along with those challenges. It's been great at building social skills, confidence, self-esteem, agency, making friends, working in teams, etc. When she mentioned how kids should be outside, running around and socializing with other kids, it just brought to mind how great this switch away from talk therapy has been for him.

Chris, good to see you pushing back gently when you disagree with stuff... I know you have been working on this and I notice the progress over the years.

Abigail Shrier is a lioness. One of the few (seemingly) American public intellectuals willing to research, and tell the truth about, not only trans mania, but the "therapeutic industrial complex" that's been a nightmare for Gen X, Millennials, and now, Gen Z.

Teaching people they are sick, unwell, not enough, whatever is gaslighting. Teaching someone that he is less than he is or could be is wrong. We can`t even comprehend how much damage it causes to soul and consequently to body itself.

I love this woman!!! So refreshing.

It’s refreshing to hear someone say that lying is not nuance, without skipping a beat, or apologizing for it.

My dad died 2 weeks before my 17th birthday having been ill with lung and then brain cancer for 3 years. I was obviously sad about his death, but my grieving process started when I was told his brain tumour was inoperable, when I watched him loose his faculties and become something other than my dad in a hospital bed. On the day he died and in the weeks after I felt relief, relief for him, for my mum, for myself because the dying was so much harder to deal with than the death. I was sent to mandatory NHS grief counselling. The therapist told me I was struggling to come to terms with my dad’s death. Asked me to describe the hardest parts of my dad’s illness which I felt no benefit in talking about. I was in the middle of A levels, had a boyfriend who wasn’t very nice to me and was in the throws of teenage hormones, if anything my dads death was the thing I most clearly understood at that time. At no point then or in the 26 years since have a felt that I struggled to accept my dad’s death. But as a 16/17 year old I had a professional adult TELLING me that I had a problem and I wasn’t accepting it. I was strong minded enough to write it off as bad therapy. But I can 100% see how to a different child this kind of approach could have led to years of issues because our minds are so malleable as children and teenagers. So not all therapy is good, and too much intervention with the wrong motivation is definitely not good. Being a child is all about learning what you can withstand to make you a strong adult. I am a stronger adult because of the grief I suffered, but the grief counselling would have had me believe otherwise.

Dialectical behavior therapy does well with exploring if the emotions are appropriate. It has part of if it fits the facts or not. When it does not, it will not be useful. Sad that Abigail said she has not received much from people about this until Chris brought it up. I am a therapist. I try to use modalities like CBT, DBT, REBT, schema therapy, ART, etc. I confront clients a lot on distortions in thinking. And a lot of cognitive reframing. And teaching them to understand and work with their emotions. Teaching them to disrupt rumination cycles and shift into reflection. Disrupting worry cycles and shifting more into concern. I know some colleagues who do. I know many who do not. I have clients who tell me they have had therapists that were good listeners but they did not get much else. Sad state of the field.

I once worked as a manager on a team with a person in her late 20s who reported directly to me. I told my subordinate face-to-face that I was going on a business trip to Paris alone, since we didn't need both of us there, and I left her to handle the day-to-day operations and tasks in the office (this was more than a decade before Covid). She told me that she didn't know how to process her feelings of disappointment as I could see she was expecting to go on the business trip. The next day, while I was in the middle of a meeting with a business partner, my boss, the CEO in his early 30s, storms in and interrupts us saying, "Your staff came into my office crying," looking irritated. I thought, "Am I dealing with two supposedly professional adults with the emotional maturity of a 4-year-old?"

I was cornered at a pediatrician office because I had post partum depression and when I declined counseling they automatically assumed my partner told me to say no and asked if I’m being abused at home. I said no because I knew it was hormones and I moved through it fine. Now, they want my son in physical therapy because he’s not walking at 12 months (totally normal!!). I said no that’s not necessary and had to say no on three separate calls. When I call this same office about my son’s extreme constipation they offer no help and just asked if he’s in PT yet. The healthcare system and mental health system can’t survive if we’re all happy and healthy so they fish for issues it’s ridiculous.

I appreciate the distinction between recognizing an emotion and assessing appropriateness of the emotion for the situation. The phrase "all emotions are valid" is particularly problematic for this reason.

I think one of the main problem is that therapy often doesn’t give people a lot of practical solutions, at least the kind that I’ve encountered. It’s all about coping mechanisms. Venting can be great at first, but if no solution is offered, it’s pointless. There is also a tendency to blame the individual instead of society. Many people who are diagnosed with depression may not have clinical depression; they may just have terrible lives. If a man is lonely, dissatisfied with his job, and trapped, then of course he’s going to feel depressed. People who have every reason to be content with life but still feel like jumping off a bridge may have clinical depression. That’s not most people, however.

Lean into the problem, face it head-on. Take responsibility, avoid assigning blame. It’s not your situation giving you issues, it’s how you’re choosing to perceive it. Maybe it’s unfair, maybe it’s cruel, maybe it’s out of your control. None of that matters, because dwelling on all the factors that make you a victim will not help you one bit. Accept your plight, and focus only on ways(big or small)that you can learn to become a fully capable wall of resilience. Nobody can do this for you, only you. Never stop searching for answers, tools, motivations ECT. The more you grow, the more the problems shrink. Before you know it, you may find you’ve forgotten about them to a degree, and power they had over greatly diminished. I did it, you can too. I believe in you.

Social emotional learning in schools actually teaches and encourages emotional disregulation and ruminating thought patterns which creates mental illness

Thank you, Chris, for bring on such incredible people and for asking the hard questions.

This was a great conversation. I really like the pushback Chris gave because Abigail was able to further explain her points. What has been called social contagion I think is better understood to be a semantic contagion. I think the language we are steeped in has really lead young people to look at themselves in these pathological terms and has entrenched them in these ideas and ways of understanding themselves. I’m. It fully convinced young people now are any more distressed than previous generations, I think they have a lot more language to explain their feelings but the language itself ends up perpetuating all the negative feelings, which if focused on and fixated on less would probably pass or they’d make changes to feel better rather than identifying with a diagnosis and both finding a sense of self and self worth in the mental health labels they seem to be clinging to.

She's right. I spent many years in Asia, then came back to the West. I never even knew what anxiety was until everyone around me said they have it. I would've been better off not knowing it was a thing, sometimes not knowing or recognizing something allows for a easy dis- attachment.

She is spot on. My parents split at 3. My dad remarried at 6. My brother decided to go live with my mom when I was in grade 6. In grade 9 the school counselor came to me to ask me how I felt about it all. By that time, I was way over it and didn't actually care, I moved on and yet she wanted me to talk about my feelings and how I should be affected. I told her it didn't bother me and I didn't need therapy I worked through it myself with some family. She was shocked and didn't know what to say, I told her I didn't need to talk to her again. I talk with my son and when he has emotions that don't match the situation I explain why he doesn't need to feel that way because it isn't the emotion that matches the situation. He understands and has for years. He is 9 now and is an amazing kid.

In 5 years people will start saying that therapy gave them trauma.

Thank you both. Perfectly timed. You’ve verbalized what most everyone I know, including myself, are in some way going through.

Good therapy saved my life more than once, as did medication. There needs to be a balance. I agree that denying our children opportunities to build self-esteem or learn self-regulation is not responsible parenting. However, assuming that all parents are responsible is equally flawed. While she makes some excellent points, I hope her voice doesn’t swing the pendulum back to the other extreme.

A changelling conversation but so strengthening ❤ Thank you!

Great to hear a voice of reason out there. GenZ is full of “victims” of everything and encouraged to be such.

Chris, you did a fantastic job in this interview: you pushed back much more than normal (welcomed and to good effect) and it became apparent that you were actively listening and understanding on the fly, rather than rebutting or letting her give a TedTalk. I agree that revisiting and ruminating on the past events isn't helpful, the old-school way of just going to work can in some instances be the best method for your mental health. Lots more could be said on the subject, but if people listen openly and reflect on what she's saying and their own experiences they will find that there's a tremendous amount of truth in what you're both saying. The problem seems to lie with the culture (school/ society) around young people (the future).

I've started pushing back on students when they tell me they "have" anxiety, as though an emotion is something you have or don't have, rather than merely experience. I don't have happiness, I experience it. I don't have depression, I experience it. When we say we "have" something, we take it on and make it a core of our identity. To say "I experience X" is to say, "I am human and experience feelings, but all feelings are fleeting. They aren't the sum total of who I am. They areny my personality"

I found this episode because ive noticed the toxic talk of "everyone should try therapy". All while mental illness has been on the rise since the 90s and the normalization therapy and language around it. An adult film star asked, "how can someone become more numb to adult movies and have performance issues, when im the one actually doing the stuff multiple times a day for a living and dont have those same problems?". I can posit a few answers to that question, but its still a good point and something people should think about before blaming adult content for their dysfunction. Ive also noticed that people who are evangelist for therapy are not unlike born again christians in that they exhibit this toxic behavior that says "im better than you because i work on myself"

Incredible podcast, thanks for being a voice for us normal regular parents. I agree with Dr. Abigail 150%, I have raised my two kids in the way I was raised in Colombia, and also I made sure they learn to dance and express their feelings, now I have two healthy young men, that lead their friends to better choices.

Exceptional takes! Definitely need more people to speak out about these issues! Children are very susceptible; they need to be nurtured and guided in the right directions, but they need not direct intervention to solve the problems for them.

I enjoyed this conversation immensely! So many insights! Brilliant!

Abigail Shrier is brilliant…could listen to her speak all day long.

She’s excellent. Being an avid listener to your podcast, it was interesting to hear how your own biases crept in at different points. As you’re nerding out on your own discoveries in therapy (feeling the feelings), felt like you were pushing your current practices as something kids need. Kids live in there feels much too much these days.

Having your feelings validated all the time , it’s just short term gratification. It’s another dopamine hit, which we have far to many of.

Very solid interview from you Chris. You navigated the conversation well ✌🏽 Nice job

Counselling is still incredibly dependent on the counsellor. I didn't start counselling/psychology until my early 30s, but since then I've spent years with different counsellors where I consistently felt awful after every session, because they made me talk about unpleasant experiences and feelings without giving those things a place or drawing connections or anything. Now I've found a marvellous chap, and in the few months we've been talking I've gained so much understanding of 'themes' in my life experiences and how I responded to them. The chaos in my head has very noticeably diminished, and when I see myself falling into a habit of responding in an unhelpful way to a situation I can recognise it and try to respond differently. That's just one counsellor out of I can't remember how many I've seen in three countries, which on an anecdotal level suggests that only a small percentage of counsellors are actually any good.

Thank you for asking tough questions, as a listener it’s easy to take guests for their word because they’re an “expert” on such and such topic; as 28 y.o. female in therapy this conversation made me question Abigail’s points at times that you did too. However, given her ability to clarify it made her message even clearer to understand! So thank you!

@Chris I think you did well to help the conversation differentiate between “therapy culture” and psychological intervention which is acutely oriented towards supporting agency and deconstructing unhelpful personal and cultural narratives - including the victim story. Almost every psychotherapy modality is about supporting autonomy and responsibility.

As a qualified therapist and psychologist I can tell you... Abigail is absolutely on point. Very wise. She is a powerful compassionate woman! More women like her in society please!

therapy ruined my parents marriage. my mom believed my dad not engaging with it was him not caring and she just got vent validation but at least she didnt like that and stopped going but her belief in therapy made her believe my dad didnt care. when she was the one who went crazy over covid 33:30 how to win friends and influence people may not tell you anything about emotional regulation but it tells you what works with people and it condemns emotional outburst like crazy. 1:16:55 my pediatrician recommended I get reassessed and remove the diagnosis because I am better off without the meds I got side effects like crazy.

19:00 my experience was the polar opposite. while i was depressed, i wholeheartedly believed that killing myself would be for the greater good because i was so different and worthless that nobody would ever feel anything other than disgust towards me. i knew i was physically human, but i believed there was something so horrific and abominable about my soul that i was completely different from the rest of humanity and had to rid myself. getting diagnosed made me realize that those things weren’t actually true, that theres an actual tangible reason why i felt that way. saying MDD cant be overcome is also just the most ludicrous statement ive ever heard. it shocks me that you think you have some kind of authority on this issue when you believe a mental diagnosis means you’re in some permanent state.

Thank you for bringing clarity to this. Social contagion and suggestive counselling is destroying many children today. They are making decisions that they shouldnt be at their age (like transitioning) and will regret destroying their future lives

Top top notch and brilliant. My mind has totally shifted for the better. Thank you

Who would have thought that falling apparat family units would effect kids

So ready to hear this! Thank you, thank you.

One of the best, most informative and most needed conversations. It's so good to see, and listen to, two synchronised minds pouring out insight and wisdom. Excellent work 👍👍👍

Anxiety never hurt me. I barreled through and noticed the more I encountered it, the more I conquered it. Every single time I was uncomfortable. The next time in a simalur.experience, I was comfortable. Now, it is a guide to who is a bad person. I dont get uncomfortable about situations anymore, only certian people. It does not go away. It communicates something is wrong. Not what is wrong. You must find that out yourself.

Excellent podcast, my son is 18 and has severe social anxiety, he struggled with going to college etc and went on medication about 5 months ago, its got worse and worse and now even struggles to leave the house, hes coming off it now as it has made everything worse including his sexual function which just adds to his mental health problems.. The withdrawal effects of coming off the medication are terrible

Brilliant interview again Chris - love the in depth thinking.

Great guest, this needs to be heard. We are over diagnosing as well as using these diagnosis as crutches or excuses. Its ironic how this is the most study we have done for mental health, yet we struggle to understand why mental health is at an all time low for many age groups.

Unfortunately, because young people are triggered by everything and afraid of their own shadows therapy has become big business. Sadly, it has become fashionable as well. There are even adverts for therapists in the UK beginning to be seen online and on TV. It's a sad state of affairs.

My sister-in-law, a school social worker, has “diagnosed” her three daughters with multiple disorders, anxiety, depression, etc….and she talks about them openly, which means these kids have been marked by their “disorders.” I see a lot of parents who talk like this. We are creating kids with built-in excuses and causing mental disorders in the process.

Incredible insight - and absolutely spot on

This is fascinating, it makes the world slightly less baffling as an older person. It also goes some way to explaining the victim culture and willingness to self infantalise, that seems to pervade young people.

I can relate a bit from my own experiences. My school put me on the special needs list with no explanation. Some of my teachers treated me like I was delicate and they also ran this self esteem course. I was shy, but many people don't come out of their shell until after school. I got into self help books from a young age and continue to see myself as someone with low self esteem. I've wondered if school influenced the way that I feel about myself. Overcoming challenges and working with others would have naturally built up my confidence without encouraging me to over focus on it. On the other hand I've still learnt some useful things. I wouldn't use the word boundary directly with someone while resolving a disagreement, but I've been in some controlling relationships where having this understanding has helped.

Realllly reaaaaly love the topic and are fully on board with the idea that bad therapies are doing the opposite of healing people

This is exactly the problem. There are more bad therapists that there are good ones. THAT is the problem.

🚴 Great listen while cycling.🚴 Chris, thank you for your specific questions. I am very interested in what Abigail offers for evidence (and am aghast by what I learn) yet I need questions like the ones you have raised. Because I admire Abigail’s research I need someone like you to ask serious questions that counter. So many pocketable quotes. Thank you both!

Great podcast! Thank you

Never had therapy to learn how to manage my feelings… to answer his questions, I had friends, parents, hobbies, stoicism and my journal.

I’m actually really relieved about worries I had about my parenting by this talk. My child is a very imaginative person and a big fan of story drama… So as you can imagine, when she works with villains and dark dramas I sometimes wonder if it’s a symptom of unresolved trauma… But then again I also think it seems healthy she’s not negating expressing a knowing of this dark side of life. Many astrologers (whom I respect) suggest helping children with charts like hers with emotional regulation. But I don’t know if any fancy techniques and every time I try to interject when she’s upset (which is becoming more rare as she grows up), I would feel guilt for not successfully guiding her to do breath work or whatever. But after listening to this, I feel more secure that she’s honestly fine and just needs a bit more time outside playing and with friends when she’s not in school.

Kids aren't encouraged to run around like they used to! We have a modern version of "children should be seen and not heard". When was the last time you saw a group of kids organising themselves to play football for skip madly? Until they are exhausted and desperate for food? Instead we see mums and dads hovering over their little darlings, calling out "careful"...don't hurt yourself"... Btw...every child needs a good grandparent. :o)

Gold as always, Chris, thanks. Just an observation on the how, and why - we cannot overlook just blatant commercial opportunism. The same way schools have vending machines selling junk food, selling therapy to kids at an early age helps establish the customer base nice and early. (For the record, I am pro free markets and I have had therapy, but the discussion slightly overlooks the fact that a key driver here is orgs and individuals seeking to make bank).

Having someone to talk to when you feel sad, in a safe place, someone with patience and wisdom, who can give you attention: this is good. *Schools cannot provide this.* Public schools cannot be safe spaces, and the conceit of school administrators that they can is despicable. To talk to someone about your blues and be listened to with good attention needs time and genuine human concern for you as a person, not as a student to be ushered through a standardized rationalized process of lesson plans and curricula. School administrative culture refuses to acknowledge the fundamental stupidity of the program of "education" it takes for granted as the norm, so the more zeal it affects in trying to help the children under its care, the worse it will bungle.

I’m a therapist and I know what I look for in therapists. I’m still not super pro children being im therapy without specific cause. If this can be worked on relationally within the family, it should. Tons of us view diagnosis and medication as last ditch efforts and things to be avoided. It’s insurance companies that force most therapists into it. And lots of us a strengths focused, narrative focused, etc. You just have to pick judiciously and go to existing stable relationships first before you start paying someone. We’re also a last resort when the needed support isn’t there for whatever reason-not a replacement for it. My kids don’t see therapists. A lot of them do not share my views on how therapy should work and I would need cause beyond normal bumps and bruises if life. I have a kid who trends toward anxiety (and yes, I think anxiety is appropriate in his case). But at the moment, teaching him breathing techniques, ways to self-smooth and distract, are plenty. I often tell him to STOP focusing on his feelings. They’re there. They aren’t dangerous. We don’t hate his emotions and we can talk about them appropriately. But they shouldn’t be grown past what’s appropriate, focused on when it isn’t helpful, or used to accomplish jobs that need to be done.

In my mid 20s I was diagnosed a psychopath. I went into therapy, with an actual Doctor of Psychiatry, because I needed to understand two things; why my Mom treated me so differently than my siblings and why I needed to take such care in showing, well, care. My Mom had to teach me empathy. When I met my Beloved Wife, now of many decades, my Mom took her aside and explained all this to her. Mom could see that a great deal of my behavior was very puzzling for Her. My point is "therapy" works when it comes by way of actual qualifications, not some social worker that went to night school and got a certificate. Be careful where you lay trust. The world is full of morons...

THANK YOU ABIGAIL FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH 👏🏻

Getting beat on when youre young and helpless, getting removed from siblings you were raising, parenting your parent. Is this trauma? Or am i just being soft Sometimes i just feel tired of carrying this corpse along. My soul is not broken yet, i see light. But that cloud of darkness comes hard sometimes but i just think this too shall pass, and i realized im the one bringing up that past and that its not others fault they trigger the cloud. , ive been getting better at getting through it thanks to all these podcasts on youtube, and self reflection. Presence brings happiness !!

That is the most wisdom I have heard on a podcast yet.

Love her! Truly awesome guest ...

OMG! You can’t make this up… As I’m watching this interview an ad comes on for better help… A young man walks into the screen & sits down on a chair with a cat on his lap. This young man can’t be more than 20 years old and he goes onto to say not too long ago just the thought of going to the grocery store would fill him with crippling anxiety… But thanks to my therapist, Elizabeth I am now much better. Holy moly! If ever there was visual proof of everything Abigail is saying that ad is it! Imagine being a fully grown adult and going to the grocery store induces cripples anxiety? Good grief!

Such an important conversation!

At 61, I'm 20 years sober and a well managed bipolar patient. I consider my meds as a cast. My mental fitness is 90% dependant upon purposefully practicing stoic principles, practicing my Christian faith, staying accountable to others who live responsibly. Imo, to many children are diagnosed by their parents or care givers and not by psychiatrists. Social workers, teachers, and pediatricians are not trained to diagnose and dictate who needs meds. Jus sayin'. Btw, if the therapist, using the CBT approach, the patient must do the work prescribed. If not, they'll be in therapy forever.

I think a fundamental issue with therapy is that it is a language. If the patient does not know how to communicate his issues or feelings then its gonna be useless. You also actually need to understand what is wrong with you to fix it. Just randomly digging at childhood memories or traumatic experiences won't really fix something that has evolved into a whole pile of issues. At that point its often better to just develop ways you can actually be happy and have positive experiences than to gruelingly dig through the mud.

The food that we're allowed to eat dysregulates our emotions and makes things so much harder. A good diet is important in navigating our emotions as well as physical exercise. It may not eliminate issues but makes things easier to navigate.

Here's my two cents on Chris's point around 1:04:30. Whether discussion of trauma helps or harms a person depends on whether the topic of trauma entered the discussion because of A) a therapist opening with "tell me about all of your trauma", or B) the client realizing, in the midst a discussion about their current problems, that past trauma was the cause I suspect that (A) is typically harmful, whereas (B) is likely to be helpful.

Lifting heavy things in a sweaty warehouse is way better than dancing, in my opinion. 😀

Very interesting timing for this conversation giving your recent foray into therapy yourself.

I think Abigail has some good points. I wouldn't blame any "therapy culture" for the mental health crisis but instead look at the culture behind the kids. Maybe we and our parents have gone too far into the economic productivity ethos which emphasizes material wealth and status over communities and spending time with people. Can't really fix this with meds and therapy.

I would have rathered someone advocateing for me when i was a child undiagnosed with ADHD, living with a parent at war, bullied by my teacher (because I was apparently gay), walking around the playground repeating the mantra "Nobody Loves me Everybody hates me." Not to mention the constant change of a military family. Going to doctors in my twenties because i thought I had a health issue then being told I had a mental issue. (With no referral) Multiple therapist falling asleep during sessions. Working in compromised jobs because I didn't believe I had any skills. NEVER able to support myself because unable to maintain continuing education. Life-threatening illness and addiction due to untreated issues.. It's only now in my midfifties am I starting to pull myself out... I'd rather have the option of over treatment in my early education years than finally resolve basic issues 40 years later because no one was aware I was in trouble from the get go!

Psychotherapy intern here 👋 My interpretation of what Abigail is saying is that our modern world has been giving far too much weight to negative emotions, which are temporary. Ideally, we must encourage children to experience the adventure of life on their own accord and face natural consequences.

Good timing-right when Chris is in the process of becoming a therapy-bro. Good back and forth.

Rumination can be very very harmful. I have a "habit" of ruminating... staying in my head. I am much better now in my 60s. Add hobbies to the list of good behaviors. I paint little toy soldiers. What a gift it is to me.... haha... silly hobby... but it puts me in a flow state in my mind and keeps some goals in front of me. Also... my daughter tells me I am "autistic" partly because of my hobbies. My wife is also thinking in a similar way. They call me autistic because I am a successful engineer who plays table-top mini games. I push back very hard... I may have an odd personality.... BUT I AM NOT SICK. I call it medicalizing personality.

As with many behaviours and concepts, I think a significant factor is the thought of "some is good, so more must be better" at the root of decision making. Many people think in those linear progressions, while reality, more often than not, looks like a graph for hormesis, where too much of an intervention can bring the result into the negative below base line. This thought pattern then results in the ignoring or minimizing of side effects as mentioned in the episode, as well as 2nd order consequences, consequences of upscaling etc. Because why would you deny someone "help"? Same concept applies for example to charities stifling organic economical growth in the recipient community. All of that being exacerbated by massive marketing/lobbying campaigns, and like Abigail mentioned, the "experts" being incentivised to keep the process going instead of evaluating when it's enough.

Good conversation, disagreed with some points of it but overall learned some new things. I’m getting faster on my runs finishing them before the podcast ends 😂. Thank you for posting!

I (25F) spent years in therapy. Not once was it ever voluntary; I went because my mom said “this is what we’re doing today”. The end result is that I constantly second-guess myself and have next to no faith in my own intuition because I was taught that mine was broken. What’s worse, I had no trauma as a kid and my parents are amazing people, so they must’ve put me in therapy because _I_ was doing something wrong, because _I_ was making their lives worse.

My, oh my, I have never seen chris battle his own biases so hard yet so unsuccessfully as in this one. Our boy sure LOVES his therapy! 🤣

It would have been good to differentiate between the types of therapy she if referring to for example CBT is an umbrella term for cognitive and behavioural treatments. CBT DOES NOT encourage rumination - if fact there are a number of different approaches for example rumination-focussed CBT (Watkins), Metacognitive (Wells), and behavioural activation (Jacobson).

Interesting perspective, however it comes of as wanting to blame someone else for the problem rather than understand it, an easier way out than introspect oneself. Good work!

What I like about Jordan Peterson's Discussion with Abigail Shrier: The Production Quality. What I like about Chris Willamson's Video: Abigail gets to actually talk...

I got hammered at nineteen with so much Prozac I could barely function and was never told it could make my anxiety worse, just that I had a condition that needed medication for the rest of my life. No one asked me about my unstable home, being bullied or being beaten up so badly I needed facial surgery, It took twenty years for a new doctor to apologize for what happened to me and now I have to get off four more drugs I was put on to get off the Prozac. I wish every day I could relive that moment and not started down this path.