Jordan is correct. The idea that one's marriage is harmonious and safe can be so deep-seated that when evidence arrives that threatens this, one can avoid the concomitant anxiety (which is proportional to the depth of this belief) by "refusing" to transform this evidence into a factual threat. This is because responding to this threat does not necessarily take place in the domain of "knowledge" but in a fuzzy zone where knowledge happens only upon inferring a valid classification of "makeup on the shirt" as threatening - especially given the infinite possibilities (even if implausible) which can account for the makeup on the shirt. One can simply "refuse" to make that inferential step. So the "error" is functionally not so much the deep-seated belief (which is given priority) but the conflict to it presented by the evidence of the lipstick on the shirt. Jordan is also right that on a second-order level this may tap into fundamental beliefs such a moral values. For once the woman makes the inference that her husband is unfaithful this upends concepts of trust, loyalty, love etc. which are 2nd order in relation to the problem but 1st order in terms of the size of the threat it presents to the idea of a harmonious marriage
Despite comments about the cognitive decline of the interviewee I still feel much respect and admiration for that level of knowledge. This guy is still able to reflect on the topic at a proper level, and convey his thoughts in a clear manner. I'm being twice younger not always able to accomplish that. Bless you Mr. Trivers. I watched the whole interview and got some really cool insights. And thanks to Dr.Peterson for taking the lead and behaving in a delicate manner.
Mr Jordan, hello to you from Egypt. Am a muslim male 40 years old. You have been literally a life saver. Your message and approach transcends religion and geography. Your lectures and heart felt messages changed my life. I never thought that was possible. I have no idea how can i repay this. You have my warmest deepest prayers may you be blessed with a life full of meaning 🙏
@bethere5151 what the fuck...? i'm going to assume you had a very bad day, because your reaction makes absolutely no sense otherwise. i hope today will be better for you.
Hi Jordan, I have been getting so frustrated seeing other videos where people talk to you with the clear intention of putting you down without even listening. So, I just want to say (which many people have probably also said) that I am so grateful that you have a loving family and so much support from us around the world because I can’t imagine how much fortitude it takes to tolerate aggressive people who just want to stain your reputation. The fact you still keep having momentum with all these incredible conversations is truly a superpower on its own. Thank you for your time and thoughts as always. Sending all the love to you and your family!
@@JordanBPeterson You’re all the welcome. I am looking forward to attending your lecture in LA/Riverside this year with my brothers and cousins, for we always engage with your discussions and converse with each other from there. Truly, thank you again for your existence and passion for truth and others’ well-being. Take care! 🙏
Thanks Jordan, for all that you do. You’ve provided me with so many hours of listening material and a wealth of knowledge on a broad set of topics for free and I want to thank you for that. We met in person once when you were in The Netherlands for a speaking engagement and when I said “I’m just a forklift driver” you told me that there’s nothing wrong with that and I should take pride in what I do. That was great advice, it made my days a lot more enjoyable at that stage in my life. These days, I’m not just a forklift driver anymore and even though I’m not really changing the world either I’m happy with where I am and I feel content when I get home from work every day. I also got married and my wife and I had a beautiful daughter together. I’d be happy digging ditches if that’s what it takes to put food on the table for them.
If only Jordan had interviewed this individual 10 to 15 years ago. This man appears to have forgotten so much and to be able to piece together all those forgotten connective points between the knowledge he has retained would have made this conversation even better. Not to speak negatively of Prof. Trivers, I think he would quite agree. Very sharp old chap with great insight. Ageing is a bitch, but it does beat the alternative.
32:30 “Yeah, so what?”😂 This is why Bob Trivers is my favorite. He cuts right through the word salad that Jordan likes and gets right to the meat and potato’s of the legitimate point he’s making. I learned this conversational technique from watching Bob a few years ago and it has be sooooo useful for getting to the bottom of what someone is trying to say. Those who comment that he’s in mental decline ought to know that this is how we has always been. If he plays stupid and keeps asking clarifying questions, eventually you will have to make your point clearly and succinctly. A master educator at work. 👌🏻
Thumbs up for the commentary. Trivers is old alright - but his manner of speech is very effective and fine-tuned. I must say his ability to productively simplify is a talent to behold!
@@franksu3420 I think it’s a good example of self deception from the perspective of a psychologist. It doesn’t surprise me that Jordan would tend towards modern interpersonal examples because of his practice. I think it was a very winding road to the eventual point, but still a good point. An evolutionary biologist would probably be more likely to reference some more basil evolutionary trade off or some such.
Thank you, Dr. Trivers, for sharing with us through this conversation. Despite the effects of the passage of time, there was much to be gained from hearing the story of your life’s work! May God bless you and keep you, too, brother.
Thank you Jordan Peterson for making these unbelievably amazing interviews free again. Please do not make them available only through a paid (Dailywire) subscription again 🙏🙏🙏
The generational interaction here is so interesting with two such highly rational-minded individuals. Respect for Trivers to be able to flow with the argumentation. I was looking for wisdom in some propositional ideas in Trivers, but instead I see wisdom in the process. Also, appreciate this rare example of Jordan's agreeableness in contention with a very disagreeable person much higher in the hierarchy.
In a way I feel privileged to be capable, at some level of variance, and also willing to entertain such deep topics. But for-certain, many many others are not, and so I am both mildly delighted and greatly saddened at the same time. How many miss out on topics like this. How many lack the hunger for it. These thought-chains, these deep-dives are the foundation upon which societies are built, well, it used to be anyway. Dr. Peterson never fails to shine a light in the dark, and I am so grateful. Fascinating topic.
I’m halfway reading “the folly of fools” and feel kind of strange about how real that book is. I can’t decide if I’m upset at the reality or just upset that I didn’t know these things sooner.
Once again and always I will make this comment anytime I can. Jordan Peterson is a hero a legend and a absolute a fragment of the Divine masculine that has come forward at this moment in time to guide many many many young men and women
When I go to lie in order to gain some advantage, I used to hypnotize myself to believe my deception, so that I might not give off the physiological cues of my deception. And it always worked. So I find this an interesting conversation. But I would do this concerning rather trivial matters, rather than things like cheating on one's spouse. I can see that in the long run, the self hypnotic deception would cause bigger problems in the future.
Around 33 minutes I think Jordan is more right than Bob. When your spouse cheats it may not actually call into question absolutely everything about the relationship, but it temporarily makes you feel that way.
@@PaulMEdwards yes, and no. That is the excuse for the behavior, but his mission is about understanding. A truly smart person knows how to communicate precisely to laymen. I myself can follow, but good god its pompous.
Fascinating. Psychopaths and I've noticed even individuals on the Narcissistic side tend be very good at mimicry. It's subtle but its there if you know what to look for. Thank you for conducting this interview with Trivers. Currently enrolled in an Anthropology course and University and there's been considerable talk about Trivers and his work.
Excellent conversation Jordan. Good luck with the tour and I look forward to seeing your talks live this tour. Partisian politics is a form of deception and self-deception, where an individual attaches their identity to the success of a political party that matches their personality disposition. The consider attacks on their preferred party, as attacks on their beliefs as individuals, and instantly dismiss any evidence contrary to their party line, resulting in an echo chamber, or affective polarization. The deception being to ignore evidence that causes negative emotions contrary to their preconcieved beliefs. The self-deception being that their identity is inseparable from their affiliated party.
OMG yes yes yes!!! On the premise of self deception! Absolutely correct. Also if the trauma variants compound it could trigger a bigger depressive episode. Like an iceberg lurking under the water, as most patients with depression can attest to, the presented facade is only the tip. The sinking of the titanic could potentially be an unfortunate ultimate end. Shakespeare warned us of this but I forget the play. As far as mimicry is concerned when applying to the narcissistic model in humans. That is an extremely interesting take, more so if it can be confirmed that narcissism is a partially scaffolded aspect of particular parenting styles. Particularly one where altruism is only mimicked. Even more so if it can be traced back to psychopathy developed during wartime or childhood trauma from previous generations. I don't know if I fully understand my thought enough to articulate this concept. I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone, I'm simply attempting to elaborate on my thoughts. Trust me I'm not the world's best dad, but I wouldn't mind knowing what to look out for in my own parenting styles. My girls deserve the best. I'm very VERY hesitant to place my thoughts so publicly and I don't have enough training to understand how something like this might be tested. After all in the myriad of responses I cannot reasonably expect to be read. However, if my theory coincides with yours please post more on this subject. It is of intense interest I believe. Not only to myself but the broader implications it could have on society art large. I eagerly await your next video response. Very respectfully BA
From the N.I.M.H. Mouse/Rat experiments: This period between day 315 and day 600 saw a breakdown in social structure and in normal social behavior. Among the aberrations in behavior were the following: expulsion of young before weaning was complete, wounding of young, increase in homosexual behavior, inability of dominant males to maintain the defense of their territory and females, aggressive behavior of females, passivity of non-dominant males with increased attacks on each other which were not defended against.[2] Is this what we are now seeing in America?
I would be very careful with making these kinds of assumptions. You can definietel, infer some rat behavior to humans. But the part on homosexuality seems very of
I recently read an article about the Icelandic culture that stated that, sexually speaking, men and women there are on equal ground, and that it has had a profound effect on the governmental structure in that women occupy more positions within the government, percentage wise, than most other countries. Basically, it said that they often have sex before they date and that there are no negative repercussions on women, as far being judged by society, or psychologically speaking. Is there any correlation? I’m hoping you will Jordanize it and explain it all. Thank you
I love this 1/2 thru. I have needed to reconstruct my beliefs and have experienced first hand as Jordan describes the whole world perception shattered after a fundamental belief was shattered. My system now values forgiveness and mistakes higher than perfection and truth. I feel no matter how self realized most humans will continue to self and or other deceive and will never be “perfect” in the ego ideal sense of the term. Thank you for this interview. Cheers ❤
It is time for you to approach everything you do during the day consciously. You should constantly control your thoughts and feelings. Any negative thought in your consciousness must be nipped in the bud. Protect yourself from everything that contributes to the existence of negative thoughts and feelings in your consciousness.
I would suggest that absolute statements are rarely accurate. While you comment does make a meaningful and important point, I think it is at the wrong level of analysis. I point out the absolutes to suggest that maintaining that level of mental awareness is unrealistic and unnecessary. What I believe must be diligently and consistently evaluated are the underlying fundamental beliefs. This requires some pointed and intentional work, but greatly reduces the amount of mental energy required to maintain a healthy thought life. That's not to say that conscious awareness of thought patterns isn't good, but few, if any, are able to exert that level of self control and focus on a continual basis.
“If i am confused, help me. If i am right, aid me. If i am wrong stop me.” Is this how you view yourself with respect to others? Is it how you wish to act and be acted upon in the world by others? If it is not then you already know the point I’m making, if it is so, just as well. If you do not understand, then a little self reflection might do you some good, i think you will find in either case that eventually you will understand, it will not mean you can act as you wish you wanted, but its a good starting point within yourself, to recognize your own fallibility, and the possibility of being righteous even in doubt.
32:53 Thank you Dr Peterson and Prof Trivers for this part. Neuroticsm could be a harbor for pathological traits After 1 hour: So instead of saying men had been unfair to women throughout history therefore must pay the price, these "reparation" women should use the same logic and concluded that we might be responsible for selecting all these psychos and pseudo psychos and should take responsibility in hunting them down 1:17:15 For me what's plausible explanations could be, they knew and they don't want to be so they reacted strongly against it. But I lean towards not accepting something of merit, not having the proper acknowledgement path of it makes it kinky. If those homophobes weren't homophobes, they'd be either a gay guy, or like the other group 1:17:42 Thank you, what a refreshing conversation. This manner of discussion should appear more for the consumption of the masses
In the case of controlling myself to be able to direct my sexual urges, I'd lean towards painting it black, to make it bland. Not by overconsuming it, but like fasting you just acknowledge that it was food but its just not for you ever... so don't sensationalize (positively nor negatively). You'd also would want to avoid psychos who wants to trigger you to commit an affair or something like that based on that
From multiple exposures to narcissistic abuse I realized that I would trigger before they were done with whatever lie or set up they were saying. Something about how they were saying it I don't know if it was the tone or what but something would trigger me and I would almost disassociate and I would be thinking why are they telling me this. I realized that my brain had learned to pay attention to that before I even knew I was doing it.
Loved this. The strategy is to oppose dissipation and to encourage synergy. The masculine is the opposition to dissipation and the feminine is the encouragement of synergy. That’s the wise king and queen. The inverse leads to the tyrant and the evil queen. The opposition to synergy and the encouragement of dissipation. Reality is interactive because it is kept stable by opponent processes. Gravity and dark energy. Gravity pulls everything together and because the universe is expanding, everything breaks and dies. We don’t have an accurate description for the reason for the universe expanding but we call the force responsible for it dark energy. Be in Rythmus with reality. It’s alive and breathes light. Trust me on this
As much as I love Jordan's thoughts, I think he tends to talk too much, some times more than the interviewee. In this interview, for example, instead of letting Trivers explain his ideas, findings, and great contributions to understanding of social evolution, Jordan decided to get his own ideas evaluated. The interview then became more about Jordan's ideas than about the guest's. It became so tiring to listen to Jordan's for most of the interview. It's very disappointing when this happens interview after interview.
Reading this comments about mental decline is absurd. Trivers technique always was not to understand what everybody else was fast du accept. All his arguments are clear and he also is explicit on what blanks their are. This is how scientific progress works.
It's not necessary to be so attached to your thoughts that you cannot have any and every possible thought. The artificial blockage of thought may well be convenient (though, later, problematic), but it's not necessary, given the relevant skills.
This ofc has little to do with this video in particular, but do not forget who told the world to clean their room before pointing their fingers out of their windows through almost completely sealed curtains… do well not to forget what that really means in the grand scheme of things and thought
If sisters are 3/4 related and brother/sister is 1/4 related, what relation are brothers, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, whole or none? This is very interesting, I always thought birds of a feather, because you always see females, in all stages of life, grouping together. Males group together, but are separated, we only get close when the occasion calls for it. That is not to say we don't show affection, but certainly not as do females.
There is no absolute Trust or Certainty on Earth or the Universe. We all have to be risk taking Animals. We all have FUD, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. But I’m not suggesting nihilism due to subconscious self deception, etc. In a formulating One Tribe of Bonobo types, things should improve over time. Children would be taken care of and backs could be watched to better extent.
This is why I turn away from Peterson as a whole and only take bits and pieces of his fundamentals. Jim rhon says that while some people are studying the roots, others are picking the fruit. While peterson is dissecting the virtuous and principles, he talks nothing of the statutes that help us, the commandments that help us, the tithing, him and Jim weigh in two different aspects, Jim rhon extracted the fundamentals, on money, relationships and work, while Jordan extracts the consequences, the virtuous and the errors, only a few things I’ve ever got out of Jordan, be diciplined, be around the right people, address your problems and dont bottle them up, we all can truly appreciate his lectures. But he’s missing many good things from the Bible. And more centerfold of the politics. But to share some that would actually help some people, some fundamentals, principles and practices of the Bible on money. Psalms 112:3 Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. Proverbs 8:18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. Proverbs 11:16 A gracious woman retaineth honour: and strong men retain riches. Proverbs 13:7 There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches. Proverbs 13:8 The ransom of a man's life are his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke. Proverbs 14:24 The crown of the wise is their riches: but the foolishness of fools is folly. Do you see a man who excels in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before unknown men. Proverbs 22:29 Proverbs 24:4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches. Jeremiah 17:11 As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool. Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Working week to week put aside a sum of your money and saving up so you are dependent on no one. - Corinthians Proverbs 10:15 The rich man's wealth is his strong city: the destruction of the poor is their poverty. Ezekiel 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: Proverbs 10:16 The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin. Proverbs 11:24 There is that scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty. Proverbs 19:4 Wealth maketh many friends; but the poor is separated from his neighbour. Psalms 15:5 He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved. Ezekiel 18:8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man. Jesus the master teacher shows us in the parables of the talents (talents meaning gold) we should never squander our money, and we must use it or lose it. Make your money work for you, and not you work for your money.
It's said that in the beginning ,as we were few,that mother nature figuure out with some dimorphism ,(colors @ shapes)so we can identify from a certain distance our counterpart,....(survival).
Dr Peterson, you really should talk with Michael Behe (his books Darwin's Black Box and Darwin Devolves) and Stephen Meyer (His works include Signature in the cell and The Return of the God Hypothesis). The great evolutionary house of cards turns out to be built on rather less than most have been led to believe. You may find it a useful interpretive framework, but the scientific basis to underpin it's metaphysical and psychological utility is surprisingly lacking. Spend some time looking at what science itself is revealing that is pertinent to evolution, with Behe and Meyer, and you will be in for quite a ride!
No offense to Dr. Trivers, this whole podcast I heard the old hunting dog from Lady and the Tramp talking to Kermit. I had to switch to youtube to see his face while talking.
@@TheJakobandersen123 maybe he thinks we aren't free-minded enough to listen to someone saying that and maintain our own opinions about it at the same time. I'm a bit disappointed, that's the truth.
Nepotism as a psychopathic trait, imho, is just another tool for a means to an end. Narcissism branches from psychopathy. We are all naturally partial to family but psychopathy takes it to the extreme and in the wrong way, bc perhaps, that's the narcissistic quality of it. Anyone in a narcissist's bloodline, and the bloodline itself, is superior and exceptional. Even those family members that the narcissist considers degenerate and enfeebled will be lied about or hidden so the narcissist can keep up their facade and delusions of grandeur- that they come from impeccable good stock. It's also easier to manipulate and control family members once the narcissist has them on their team. Family members are more malleable minions.
@58:00 The proliferation of tattoos could be considered a type of mimicry in humans, where hipsters and other assorted weaklings are adopting the visual appearance of 'poisonous' individuals.
In that scenario, the woman that looks past the lipstick will in all likelihood be faced with another piece of evidence pointing to the error in her fantasy in the near future.
So, there are actually scientific evidences about homofobia being related with hidden homosexuality? This is a huge leap in understanding homophobia and how to solve it, big stuff
Wouldn't you say that binary homosexuality is now a modern, codified, accepted aspect of western society? Individuals may vary in their evaluation of it, but I think we can hold homosexuality as a non-problem--although culture pressures everything and can allow for change.
Your recent shinnanigans can be forgiven, but it is not so that being compasionate is for nothing, actions for good the great, but neutrality is also not an ill, which is what being compasionate in inaction is, it is a generous attitude to take and it forms your actions as well, even if on its own its just a way to treat yourself. Russia has no claim to Ukraine, Russia is a name on paperwork and in minds, whom of the Russians have a right to go to war in Ukraine over historical oddities? No such rights to demand submission exist according to several people i know, including yourself. Furthermore you must uphold your own principles when it comes to the rights of others to disagree with you, others get angry as well, others are fallible and confused, do not think that selling your persona to the highest bidder, or breeding hate is justified to any larger degree when you do it, as contrasted with people and trends you are resentful of. I do not mean to be harsh or judgmental here, I will simply state that nobody has ever avoided disappointing me, not even myself, although that is forgivable i do not see many walking this earth Willing to admit that about themselves, or their friends or partners whom they love. including you, and all others i have known. Just keep that in mind shall we, whatever it may turn out to mean to you.
Yes Mr. Trivers that's where people are in life, it's all hard nowadays so your husband cannot add to that for example...but applies across the board in life
Power, Competence and Status should be wielded judiciously. I feel I have to be MGTOW now because I’m an old Psychopath and all women can see through me. I can contribute through quiet social outlets and my intellect.
We’ve got Homosexuality in the population and accommodate it better in modern times with partnerships and Civil marriages. I have no Homophobia or homo arousal, take my word for it. All Sex is good if the parties agree and nobody is badly hurt. Perversion is a Grey Area - we’re all a bit strange when it comes to sex.
A Psychopaths Dark Triad tendencies trickle from the subconscious mind. He often thinks he’s being honest but he isn’t. Does the Oedipal mother create Narcissism or Lack of Self Love in the progeny?? Difficult Duality……..not to be reproduced, maybe……
😂I think It’s when your natural baseline voice goes even higher- so for you maybe out of range for human hearing ;) no you’re all good - keep your high voice. I sing and all the voices are beautiful
A description of male deception? , not so easily recognized in women and children as the voice is already higher pitched, and that elicits a reaction of more controlled expression of aggressive behavior in the male. but loud continuous high pitched voices aggravates the male as he has already responded to the stimulus and it is not being reciprocally responded to, at this point he is out of solutions and falls back on his aggression to find an immediate resolution, the male has much less ability than the female in this regard
