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The strongest argument for choice in my opinion is human autonomy. You can't force anybody to keep another human alive if it harms them in any way. You don't have to donate blood and you don't have to donate a kidney. Even when you are dead you don't have to donate vital organs if you wouldn't have wanted it in your lifetime. This should also be applied to pregnant people, because embryos are dependent on their mothers. And pregnancies are a heath risk and something that changes ones whole body for life. You can literally die and have your body ripped open. It is unacceptable that women have less control over their body than dead people.
Here are some better analogies, introducing the often crucial ingredient that determines the morality of an action: consent. The good thing about thought experiments is that if they are too different to be convincing, you can always alter them to where they are similar enough to reality. A better analogy would be that you agree to be paid money (~you choose to have sex) to be on a list volunteering to donate a kidney to someone, where the donor is chosen lottery-style (~risking pregnancy). You take the money, sign the contract. Your name is drawn (~you get pregnant). The child is near death and needs an immediate replacement (~gestation and birth are essential to survival). Partway through the surgery, you decide not to go through with it, ensuring the child's death (~you pay for an abortion). Here's a real-life analogy: slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/09/why-drivers-in-china-intentionally-kill-the-pedestrians-they-hit-chinas-laws-have-encouraged-the-hit-to-kill-phenomenon.html There are Chinese drivers who will murder pedestrians to avoid the full costs of the drivers' mistakes.
@@matthewkunzler3941 Government mandated vaccinations would be mandated in order to keep EVERYONE in society alive, not mandated in order to keep one single being inside you alive (as an anti-abortion law would). Forcing people to have babies is not saving lives of the majority of society, whereas a mandated vaccine would.
I'd never considered this until watching the Atheist Experience, but an abortion isn't killing anyone. It's simply separating two people and one of them can't survive without the other. At no other point in your life would we grant you the right to survive off of another person's body, so why would we grant this special right to people based simply on age. Not to mention that you're not obligated to be a mother and provide for any of the needs of your child at any point except before birth.
@@anarchisttutor7423 by that logic we shouldn't be treating car crash survivors in the hospital because they consented to the risk of getting in a crash when they got in their car
Sam, you did great advocating for women and all people affected by unwanted pregnancies. Your thoughts were concise and articulate. Tanner, you're great too ❤️
More efforts are made to protect the unborn then to provide clean air, water, nutritious food, housing, and a livable planet for future generations. Give women autonomy over their own body and start actually solving the real problems in this world that impact all of us.
You're covering a lot of things here. I want to point out that the economic cost of pregnancy is high. I have four children, so I've been through this a few times. If you assume that a woman becomes pregnant and doesn't want to be a mother and chooses adoption - which some people seem to think is an easy answer and I'm not even going to get into the social and emotional toll here - she will still have serious physical and economical impacts. Prenatal appointments disrupt work. Appointments are critical to a healthy pregnancy for both the woman and the baby. These appointments are during the workday and employers, especially for low income workers, are not understanding of that. Also, your OB may be delivering a baby, so you may spend a lot of time in the waiting room and you're time away from the job may be unpredictable. Many women can't work throughout their pregnancy. Many are put on bed rest or partial bedrest. Morning sickness is a very real thing for many women. This is more problematic for low income workers who tend to have jobs that require more physical activity. Who pays the bills when you're put on bedrest? Maternity clothing is expensive. Healthcare? Who is paying for that? Post-natal - best case you can go back to work in 6 weeks. Who pays the bills through that time? And guess what - there are very real impacts to carrying and birthing children. We do not talk about the physical problems caused by pregnancy and childbirth enough - which is odd because women love to talk about their pregnancy/childbirth issues. Women suffer permanent physical damage due to pregnancy and childbirth that impact quality of life. I'm so livid that people pretend (because they have put no thought into the matter) that adoption is the obvious answer for pregnant women who don't want to be parents.
Thank you for laying out all this. Low income women, especially, are expected to make the decision to carry a baby to term and people don't think about all these hurdles to make it work, even if they want to have the babies.
Yeah, medical treatment and pre and post natal treatment is expensive as hell in this country. Even just giving birth costs upwards to 30 to 50 grand and that is IF something doesn't go horribly wrong/bab need to stay in the NICU for a while (which is also really expensive). The monetary cost of carrying and birthing here is insane. If these pro birthers cared about the unborn, wouldn't they be just as passionate about making pre and post natal care more accessible to expectant mothers who are around the poverty line? I know i dont see as many right to lifers making posts and calling on elected officials to make that so quite as much as i see picketers harassing scared 13 year olds outside of Planned Parenthoods
In a free society (which we don't have), willing parents would likely and non-willing parents could work out some of this. Adopting a baby in the US can cost tens of thousands of dollars. That money would be better spent on prenatal care. Also, in a free society, medical costs would tend to be lower. (All technology goes through a process of being expensive at first, but you wouldn't have the added burdens the state adds on at all stages.) Listen to the Tom Woods episodes on health care to learn more. You seem to be stripping women of agency and accountability. What if we give a pass to everyone who consensually takes risks? Eat too much sugar? Get your diabetes care paid for by somebody else. Your business startup fails? Get your debts repaid by somebody else. Etc.
Forcing a woman to term is so horrific especially for women who's baby is dead or dying in the womb and won't make it to term. It puts the woman in so much danger
Entrepreneurship Drive Nothing that justifies murdering them. And embryos have done neither bad nor good. They have the full potential to become sweet angels but also to have a horrible life and of committing crimes in the future. Especially when born unwanted to parents that despise them (as this video explains in detail). Also, have you even listened to the video? If you think abortion is immoral that's fine. Don't get one. But don't bring your subjective beliefs into the legal system. Banning abortions increases not only the amount of abortions taking place overall (as abortion bans go hand in hand with horrible sex ed almost always) but also the amount of women dying in the process. You pro-lifers are not saving lives. You are literally ending them.
People like Prager U even said that some innocent life killed under capital punishment is acceptable. But even 1 "baby" that's aborted is too much for them.
@@Beanmachine2 lol. But on your previous comment on adoption, it would be good if adoption was easier. Too much suffering and loss of resources occurs in the system. It likely needs to be completely revamped to fix those issues. All in all all posible solutions will take leg work, that this is what many politicians and people aren't down with.
I think that fact further supports my hypothesis that they aren't pro-life, they're pro-punishment and pro-oppresion. Pro punishing women (in their mind, whores) for having sex. Pro oppressing the impoverished for "being irresponsible"...having a baby is arguably the most expensive financial obligation a person can take on. Pro-lifers are really just "pro-how I think people should live their lives and if I don't like it, *destroy* them physically, financially, etc...make them *pay* for their 'sins'!"
I left mormonism in the past year and while I am progressive in most ways, abortion is something that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around. I appreciate your point of view and you definitely helped me to look at things differently.
I’m in the same boat. Hard time wrapping my head around it. I think the world would be better with abortion but it scares the living daylights out of me for ethics. But soooooo funny/true if guys were the ones having babies this would already be a done deal
A thought I had when you were discussing how forcing women to carry to term ("she should've closed her legs!") is at it's foundation a way to punish women who have sex, is that the other side of that coin should be that men are punished for having sex... but they aren't. It's just continued legal subjugation of women. Great video, guys.
Men have to pay child support (assuming they don't get custody-courts usually favor the women) and have no legal say in whether or not the woman has the child. They are held accountable for their actions (ostensibly-I don't know the statistics of CS avoidance). Women often can legally avoid accountability for their actions. Your implication is that there is sexism going on. Maybe there is some of what you say (though I've never actually seen it expressed in real life), but it seems the sexism against men is pretty apparent. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-3WMuzhQXJoY.html
@@anarchisttutor7423 Wow we can see you’re a true intellectual from all you wide leaps of logic. Keep replying to ever comment! Your arguments are just gonna get more reasonable with all this pactrice. 😂 Just cause you’ve not seen what you think as “sexism” with your own eyes doesn’t mean a dam thing. I’ve not seen people get stabbed but I still know it goes on. Having to go through the courts (which most people don’t do) is your best argument for men being punish for getting someone pregnant. The garbage system “child support” where dudes will simple move states and never pay it again (yes I know real people this happened to) that is your comparison to having to carry, birth and raise a baby that an individual did not want. I can laugh at your ignorance of real sexism and social issues. 👏 👏 keep up the hard work of replying to everyone in this comment section with your very best leaps in logic for any issue that haven’t personally affected you in anyway.
@@Just-in-Spenc I acknowledged that sexism against women can happen--the kind where people want to punish women and not men for the same behavior. So why are you acting like I didn't? The fact that I've never seen it suggests it's rare or socially unacceptable, just like the fact that you've never seen a stabbing.
@@Just-in-Spenc You didn't address my pointing out the double standard. You said the implementation of the punishment isn't always effective, which is not an argument that there isn't a double standard.
@@anarchisttutor7423 “maybe there is some of what you say (though I’ve never actually seen it expressed in real life).” Right there your implication you don’t see it happening so a big “maybe” is your answer to a real debate. And your double standard is completely dependent on another issue. Of divorce and child care that can happen and often happens outside of this conversation of women being mocked either way for having sex or having children. When your double standers for men is court debates on custody and finically support (which can have its own problems). Men are instead praised for having sex and sexual partners and even them causing a pregnancy is a oops should have worn a condom. But I mean what can I expect from a conversation with someone who compared women’s rights to abortions with bad chinese driving law and drunk drivers. 😵
What I don’t understand is how a prolife person can also support the practice of putting another human being with a “soul”, to death. Yes they committed a crime, but does that mean that the sanctity of life argument only applies to the people we like? Prolife (but only the lives I care about).
The pollution thing in Utah always bothered me. The Brethren could send their lobbyists just up the hill to talk to the Governor and to the LDS-majority legislators and put in regulations to stop air pollution. But they won’t. Their priority is stopping legal weed
I'm also glad you brought up the issue of embryos created through in vitro fertilization, then frozen. The 'pro-life' movement have fought tooth and nail to see to it that these embryos are never used for research, but embryos that are never implanted eventually are thawed out an thrown away. This seems to not bother the pro-life community, at least not enough for them to demand that all these embryos be kept frozen forever. So they are more comfortable with them being thrown away (and how is that not the same as abortion?) than with the idea that using them could have given my father a cure for his Parkinson's or my brother a cure for his ALS. How is that a moral stand?
Exactly!!! It's almost like it has more to do with the type of demographics that frequent these types of places (or the image these people have in their heads about people seeking abortion or IVF treatment)... when this idea about all of the embryos being discarded at IVF centers is brought up, the anti-choicer logic is completely dismantled. It isn't about the embryos, the fetuses, the "babies" at all...
I live in New Zealand and Abortion is completely legal here. I can't believe that women still don't have rights over their own bodies. It hurts my heart.
Birth control is extremely effective if used properly before and after sex. Women have control over their bodies to prevent this entirely but those women don't and as a result they have to go to the third option. "I thought it was your body though cuz u could have prevented pregnancy before and after but now you want an abortion? Really? So your choice was to have unprotected sex knowing that there's a strong possibility of pregnancy and now you want to terminate a life?" Wow
I'm a pro-choice Christian and had a friend ask me after I miscarried whether that has changed my mind. I was so shocked that someone would say/think that. I told them 100% not, I'm still pro-choice, in fact the medical assistance I needed when I miscarried was made so much easier to access because abortion was legal (also the privilege of not being investigated or even arrested for having a miscarriage).
Thank you for making this video and being a great example of the power of vulnerability. I can't imagine the pressure anxiety involved in sharing personal beliefs on an online platform like RU-vid so thank you for what you do.
SAM, YOU ARE DOING AMAZING. I watched this last night. I wanted to leave a comment but it is just so much to process. Instead of sharing my beliefs, which was very much pro-choice, here's what I am re-living since this news broke: I kept getting dizzy & passing out. My period was late by a month. I have Lupus & epilepsy and a whole medical book of issues. This wasn't unusual. At the time I was a hardcore Jesus freak pro-life Christian girl. I did take a pregnancy test well over 6 weeks AFTER my missed period. It was negative. I went to the ER because I kept passing out and throwing up. Pregnancy test was negative. He insisted I must have a UTI even though nothing indicated that I did. I got even sicker. Went in another week later to the ER. I was pregnant. This meant I had to stop my seizure medication, my mental health meds, and Lupus treatments. I was scared and I felt bad for being scared because in the eyes of religion its selfish to choose my life over "my baby". My neurologist told me I was equivalent to a murderer by getting pregnant because of all the trauma the fetus would have to endure. My OBGYN told me to get an abortion. My biggest fear was (and is) dying and I was positive God would hate me if I did that. A lot of circumstances the following month landed me in a psych unit, where I was forced scary strong meds when I was safe albeit depressed (Cali state hospitals are scary af). When I got out, amidst all the family drama and health drama, I had an appointment at the high risk obgyn department of Loma Linda. When I went in for my ultrasound the fetus didn't have a heartbeat. I spent about 6 months bleeding so bad I'd end up in the ER over a dozen times. I was confined to my be in an adult diaper. And I believed so much that it was my fault - as so many women experiencing miscarriages do - but I also thought God was punishing me. Because I really had considered abortion. To help expel the fetus I even had to use a pill that is prescribed for abortions and inducing labor. And event though I knew the fetus didn't have a heartbeat, bc of this deep rooted religious belief that abortion is bad, I felt like I was "killing it". This was about 11 years ago. Jump to 2019 pre-Covid I watched my mom's eyes glaze over after she made her way to out blue sofa. Her brain aneurysm was rupturing, She had the most godawful groan and was gasping for breath. I held her hand while the EMTs came. They kept telling me it was going to be okay and I shook my head and said "I know you have too say that, but she's not." Because I could feel her spirit leaving - which might make me sound crazy, but I knew she was already gone. The trauma doctor said they could do surgery but even if she survived it, she would have so much brain damage she wouldn't understand anything, be able to talk, or move. The last few months my mom told me to just let her die if the aneurysm bled again. I felt similar to taking that pill to expel the fetus when I said no. My only comfort is I knew her spirit had left her body. I was instantly greeted by DonorConnect and continued that process of difficult decisions. She was declared brain dead on August 10th 2019 - which is the date on her death certificate, though they kept her body alive with machines until the donor recipients were ready. Posturing and "the Lazarus effect" in brain dead patients is horrific. My mom would squeeze my hand, which I knew was normal. I didn't expect her sitting upright countless times, though. And despite these movements (caused by the pressure on her spine) she wasn't alive. Letting her go was not even close to murder just like had I chosen to abort the fetus in me 11 years ago would not be murder. Quality of life is so much more important than quantity. And if there is a god or higher power, they can figure out these small details while we focus on the quality of the lives already born into this cruel world. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen 😅
The Book of Mormon has a bit where Jesus is talking to a prophet while his body is in Mary's womb and he says "On the morrow, come I into the world". So if Jesus's spirit hadn't entered his body while it was in the womb, wouldn't it be the same for everyone else?
It’s horrific to think that in Texas a man can rape his daughter and if she tries to abort the fetus, he can turn her in and get paid $10,000.00 and the girl would do time in prison. So horrifying. There are so many scenarios that will become real very soon. My heart aches for the women in Texas. 💔
Yes exactly, use contraceptives to prevent pregnancy before you have sex or use emergency contraceptives after sex. "Oh you didn't do neither? So most likely you deliberately had unprotected sex and now you want to get rid of it? Okay well you have 6 weeks since you weren't responsible enough from the start."
@@haveueverwondered9749 "deliberately had unprotected sex" that's very bold to say, when it's usually not the case. . . Men for some reason can't unload outside. I've never understood why not. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. If men can let go of the embryo, women should be able to as well. And as stated: a woman should have autonomy over her own body.
I'm glad you mentioned the question of the soul. There is a certain illogic to the anti-abortion stand based on the soul. What do you suppose happens to the soul of a fetus that dies in the womb? In fact, enormous numbers of embryos never implant or implant briefly and then simply stop. Most of the time the woman never knows it happened.
Loved this video because it’s not talked about enough. Miscarriages happen all the time and if abortion is a scary word then simply this woman wants a miscarriage and less trauma and the freedom to choose. I hate that this topic is even a debate!!
I am completely pro-choice. A woman's right to her body is absolute, period. If someone is anti-choice, that is fine for them.. but they have zero right to force anyone else to their point of view. I'd have less of an issue with the pro-life movement if they really were pro-life, however their support ends at birth and not at supporting a child from birth until independence. The pro-life argument is just so disingenuous. Samantha, you did a great job advocating for women and pointing out the hypocrisy of the pro-birth movement. And last time I checked it takes a man and a woman to become pregnant, so let's lay of the comments about women keeping their legs closed and spend some of that energy on telling men to keep their bits in their pants!
this is btw the only reason why I can at least take the german pro-lifers serious... they do not only harrass doctors that provide abortions, most of their work and money goes into providing pregnant women and young mothers with the support that could convince them to actually want the child, from homes for young mothers to financial support. And still, I think they are just wrong in their opinion, that a fetus has some special right that allows them to use their mothers body without consent.
Your argument could easily be flipped. Those who support providing for children are disingenuous because they are okay with murdering them in the womb. If you disagree, then you can tell it's a false equivalency and you shouldn't be making it.
When it comes to animals, people actively play down how smart or impressive many are. Sentience is actively denied, too. At some points it mirrors Voltaire's views on animals and pain, or rather the denial of their pain during his experiments.
Thanks for sharing the point that pro life is hypocritical, and that things like sex ed are really how we can reduce abortions. Made me think of Gov Abbott's recent comment about eliminating all rapists so abortions don't need to happen, without addressing better sex ed, resources, etc... And also that rape isn't the only reason for abortion. Not to mention, how WILL he eliminate all rapists?
His comment about "getting rapists off the streets" is one of those bogeyman type statements. Most rapists are in our homes, schools, churches, and other "safe" spaces.
If he had the power to eliminate all rapists, why didn't he do that the first day he took office? If he had that power and didn't do it than he is responsible for every rape that happened in Texas since he became governor. But of course he does not have that power and neither does anyone else.
The story of Andrea Yates makes a pretty good counter-argument. She and her husband had made a decision to have as many children as God cost to send them. Unfortunately, she developed postpartum depression and schizophrenia, and after giving birth to five children in less than seven years, she drowned then all in the bathtub when the youngest was about five months old. In addition to not believing in the use of contraception, it seems that her husband Rusty didn't believe in the existence of depression, and that all the depressed people needed was a good swift kick in the pants, according to Wikipedia. She was first convicted of murder, but later found not guilty due to inanity.
It's funny to me how quickly pro lifers change their tune when it's someone the love who had the abortion. My dad is a mormon and when I finally told him that I had an abortion and not a tubal pregnancy, he cried and told me I made the right choice because of the relationship I was in at the time. I don't understand why that sake courtesy can't be extended to every person who has an abortion. It makes no sense.
I think it's an empathy issue. Some people aren't good at empathy in the abstract. I noticed something similar in my personal life with gay rights. My parents and extended family were always vaguely disparaging of the concept of homosexuality, although not outright hateful - but once people they already knew and cared about came out, they were way more understanding. They've still a ways to go, but when it came to voting on gay marriage, they were mostly saying 'why not, it's none of my business'.
Thank you for touching on this despite the amount of distress and work that went into it. So often, the focus is on physical ability to carry to term or trauma around the cause of the pregnancy, which does a huge disservice to the experiences of uterus owner/operators. The impact of a pregnancy, especially given the horomonal havoc, on mental health and physical ability is not an insignificant concern, and so often the focus on everything else thoroughly eclipses the enormity of pregnancy. I really appreciate the lack of demonization of abortion in this video. For anyone who wants, there's a great philosophy tube video on this using a thought experiment of forced sustenance of adult life, aimed at conveying the severity to non-uterus having folks.
I think this was a very important video for me. I am pro life. I was also raised Mormon, and know that basically all of my beliefs are a result of cult indoctrination. Having only recently realized the church isn't true (it's been about a year), I am still trying to figure out what I really do believe. No, you didn't change my mind on this particular issue (yet), but I find all of your videos have helped me find stability, and this one in particular has been very educational. I appreciate the rationality with which you approach the issue, as well as the respect you offer those who may still be pro life. This channel continues to help me become less judgemental and more tolerant of others and their decisions. Thank you for the good work you two are doing!
I hope you find the Truth, and that you continue to support both mothers and babies at every stage of life. Look in to both sides of the argument and you will see who has the most love to give :)
As someone who is personally pro-life but against government regulation of abortion I really appreciate this video. My main problem with the enforcement of pro-life laws is the fact that it by definition would require the government to make medical decisions on behalf of someone else, which is an idea I fundamentally disagree with. The idea that a woman who was assaulted would somehow have to prove that fact to a complete stranger in government without any sort of medical background in order to deal with an extremely traumatizing situation is insane and not something I could ever support. Also your point about forcing ones morals onto other people using the government (which has separation of church and state for a very good reason) is something I could not agree with more, setting that kind of precedent is a road that can lead to a cornucopia of far worse problems. Really appreciate your insightful discussion as always!
If you guys cook vegan/vegitarian food, how would you feel about doing a cooking series? I've wanted to eat more meat free meals, but It can be really difficult to work 40 hours a week and also cook recipes youve never tried before. Not to mention trying to eat lunch or dinner out is not easy either.
My 99 year old grandmother told the family about 10 years ago that she had had an abortion. She had already had 4 kids in less than 8 years. When she told my grandfather that she was pregnant with the fifth, he took her into the big city to get an abortion. When she told us about this, she told us that she was so grateful for it that she has donated to abortion services to make them available for others. Abortion isn't about the naive teen who "can't keep their legs closed". It's especially about the struggling family that already has kids and can't take care of another.
Being married and resisting the urge to have sex is like having a food addiction. You're around the temptation all the time. But if you were told if you ate too much in a day, somebody might die (similar to that movie The Box), would you do everything you could to ensure that would never happen, or would you say, "Tell me about the person so I can decide if they matter or not"?
Mama Dr Jones posted a really good video addressing how only allowing abortions when a women's health is "at risk" is extremely vague and subjective. The state of being pregnant by default increases risk of death. So how sick is "sick enough" to determine an abortion can or can't be justified? On their death bed? Might suffer long term medical issues if they carry to term but otherwise will most likely survive? How about when an abortion is preformed and the husband says "see! I told you she didn't need an abortion! She's perfectly fine!!"? I know this video focused on the morals because it really shouldn't matter if you medically "need one" or not. What happened to letting God be the final judge? And how could a politician know what's best for every individual person more than a personal doctor? This is an objective hot mess morals aside.
Yes!! ❤️🔥 I actually wrote my college english papers on this subject. I argued that abstinence only sex ed. doesn’t work based on statistics. If we really want to limit the amount of abortions taking place, that as a society we need to focus on sex education and actually educating our youth. We should know our bodies, have options and be able to choose what situation is best for us. If abortion laws are getting so convoluted and basically made illegal. I question what is being done to support low income families, improve our foster care and adoption systems. Educate our youth on taking care of their body as they become sexually active, not shame them.
I’m all for vasectomies. Like heavily pushing for them. They’re cheaper, safer to perform, cheaper, safer to undo. Men can save sperm at a sperm bank beforehand just in case anything happens. They should be made available to all males. Why is this not a thing?
@@TuathaTuna I would agree that it should be an option that is discussed more. It is an option, unfortunately there is a lot of stigma around it though. This operation is typically covered by insurance and a few days to recover. It’s important to have all options discussed. To help promote anyone to make an educated choice based on their given situation. I think it’s great that you’re willing to talk about this option as well. However it’s not a one size fits all and doesn’t protect from STDs or other things that youth are also undereducated on. Better education and more options would help meet people where they are.
That idea of punishment seems to be the central theme in my mind. People often say things like "you should have thought of that before having sex" or similar ideas (what I call the "hindsight fallacy"). All I can say is that having a baby should never be thought of as a punishment for having sex. Having a child is a huge step and requires a deep commitment and planning, etc. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent. And children shouldn't be forced to be born into an environment like that. Abortion is about giving people (women especially) the power to prepare and plan.
Thanks for tackling this, I know it's not easy. I struggled to talk about it when it was being voted on in my country, to a degree that surprised me, because I was afraid of people's reactions. So fair play for putting it out there publicly. I always appreciate your ability to stay nuanced and empathetic, and avoid painting people who disagree with you as monsters by default. ❤ I was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic school. My parents never mentioned abortion one way or the other, but our sex ed at school, which was otherwise reasonably comprehensive (for the late 90s), went for a 'life begins at implantation' approach. There was no mention of souls or religion, it was a biology discussion, but the narrative approach they used led us to a particular conclusion. Of course, abortion was illegal here then so they didn't have to dwell on it. It did result in a weird conversation with my mother because they told us the morning after pill *could* be abortive because implantation could have occurred. This mustn't have sat right with me because I asked my mum about it and she had a small existential crisis because she had used it once. I was 13, I was not ready to hear that story 😂😂
I cannot morally be pro-life. Even when I WAS Mormon, I couldn't be. The empathy I feel for women is way too strong to believe that forcing them to carry to term when they don't want to is the right thing. I do not believe that life begins at conception. A heartbeat means nothing. Even some dead people have a heartbeat still. Life scientifically and legally begins when the fetus is out of the womb and takes its first independent breath. LEGALLY it is now alive. So, I don't believe that abortion is murder at all. I have never allowed my religious standing to cloud my judgment on anything. Maybe that means I have been a bad Mormon from the start... It doesn't surprise me at all though that religious fanatics would be pro-force. I mean, every belief is forced on them.
Maybe this makes me a horrible asshole, but I don't really care if anti-choice people sincerely believe abortion is murder, souls are real, etc. I also don't care if they're personally nice. At the end of the day, they don't think those of us who can become pregnant should have full bodily autonomy. They prize the potential over the actual. They are just fine with making forced birth the law of the land. I don't want anything to do with them.
I don't think you're horrible--I think you're right on the money. If abortion is murder, then every time a guy whacks off, he's guilty of killing some potential babies. Every time a girl has a period, she's guilty of killing eggs that could've become babies. Therefore, we're all constantly guilty of murder, so that argument is flawed. If souls are real (which they have yet to have been scientifically proven to be), then a just God can take that soul out of that body and put it somebody else's just as easily as he put it there to begin with--Right? And my final argument is that if I was in the womb of a mother who was even considering aborting me, I'd say to go ahead and do it because I don't want to be born to a mother who never wanted me in the first place. Can I get an amen LittleMissLounge?
I am so glad that you shared how your thoughts were changed. I'm so glad I was born and raised in California. I am a woman who had 2 very, very difficult births and then got pregnant 2 more times while on birth control. My Dr told me if I carried these children that I would die during birth. As a mother, I am not going to die and leave my 2 babies that are already born. Women should have control over their bodies. Thank you again.
You can take it further than 'why aren't you vegan then?' Arguably PLANTS are just as or are more alive than a foetus, so you should just be a breath-arian if you're so pro life.
One does not necessarily have to kill plants to eat parts of them. But there is an issue i have with the argument that some vegans make, the argument that boils down "to the closer an organism is to a human the more important it is, if a living organism isn't experiencing the world in a way I understand and empathize with I do not have to vaule and respect its life"
@@willowtree7326 Yes, the “ethical vegan” argument is definitely a fundamental misunderstanding of nature. Basically it makes an arbitrary line at which a certain organism is “sentient” and therefore immoral to kill, while also ignoring the mass genocide being perpetrated by all carnivorous animals (because of another arbitrary line of sentience - “only humans are responsible for their actions”). Then they ignore the millions of lives intentionally killed by plows, pesticides, etc. in plant agriculture. It’s very possible that eating beef kills fewer “sentient” creatures than eating most plants (as we cultivate them).
The animal rights/veganism position is such a strong case against abortion IMO. It’s crazy that you can think killing a single-cell zygote from the moment of fertilization is murder. But if I were to torture and kill a chimpanzee, that’s perfectly fine, simply because it’s not a human. Sentient life is what matters. Reducing actual suffering should be our primary concern if we want to be serious about ethics.
See my framework for morality in my long post. Besides suffering, "loss" and "connection" are also important elements of a moral framework. Nonetheless, even if you only look at suffering, look at the whole picture. My former housemate's girlfriend murdered their child and he fell off the wagon regarding his alcoholism from the pain it caused him.
What I dont hear often enough is the religious argument AGAINST the idea that the soul exists at conception. It literally says in the Talmud that Adams life begins and depends on the breath of God entering his body. Which means that makes the argument for us. Then, in Luke, Gabriel gives Mary the choice to carry Gods child. He asks for her consent and she says, "Let it be well, with me." So if even God has to ask for permission to use a womans body to create life, then what right do we have to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term? I'm actually an agnostic so the Bible doesn't hold weight for me, the way it might for someone else but I can find examples in multiple places that could help a religious person look at this from a different angle. Thank you for making this video. It's an important topic and I was glad to hear your opinions. 😘
I also have Nexplanon and a very, very real fear of becoming pregnant. The idea is horrifying to me and if I could get my tubes tied, I would get it done tomorrow. Arizona is trying to push abortion bans too (in a much more masked and sinister way imo) and I honestly don't know what to do if that happens.
What you address = reasons why fetal life is not equal to human life in Judaism. Therapeutic abortion is recommended, if not mandated, if mother’s life/health is threatened. Texas law, among other things, is entirely based on religious belief - in violation of the first as well as 14th amendment, Roe.
To translate something renowned cardiac surgeon René Favaloro said in an interview in 1997 that made the rounds online in 2015 when pressure to legalize abortion in Argentina was still building: "With divorce [only legalized in 1987] they told us it would be the end of the family but it was only the end of shame for those separated illegally. With legal abortion there won't be more nor less abortions, there will be fewer dead mothers. The rest is education, not legislation."
Great video! I’d like to add because I haven’t seen it mentioned before: yes, 6 weeks pregnant is well before most people know they’re pregnant. But on top of that, 6 weeks pregnant is typically only 4 weeks after conception. The way we measure gestation is based off first day of last period. So the first week of pregnancy is when they’re having their period.
@@katesanders2219 yes and even more so if your on some sort of birth control. You may expect not to have one as well. 6 weeks is literally a number they pulled from their ass without out any understanding of ¡pregnant women!
I changed my mind on this because I realized that a life is not a gift unless it is presented as one. So if you are not emotionally, financially, or mentally stable enough to have a child, don’t have one. Just because you’re happy and you enjoy the life you live, it does not mean that others will have the same experience. And if a mother doesn’t want a child, that child will know.
I've undergone IVF. My husband and I even know the genders of our embryos and call them our "embabies"... However, I am a billion percent pro choice. "Murdering babies" is such an emotionally charged statement that has no weight when you realize that there is no heartbeat at this stage. No nervous system. Likely zero subconscious let alone any sort of awareness... pro choice means believing everyone has the right to determine for themselves when life starts and what they will do with this "life". Great discussion, you guys. Well done! Its hard to remain level headed when talking about things like this.
We even had to sign a paper when we genetically tested the embryos stating that any results that are incompatible with life in any way would be discarded. They weren't destroyed, they were just left to stop growing rather then being frozen. After our egg retrieval we had 14 eggs. After the fertilization process, we ended up with 6. We transferred one and tested the rest. 3 were dang near perfect and two would have resulted in miscarriage (which abortion would be the medical term used, even when happening spontaneously). We see the potential of the life they could have but wouldn't have been happy to transfer an embryo that would abort... the emotional trauma of infertility on top of miscarriage is a lot. We were glad to have the chance to minimize the risk of miscarriage through this process.
Sorry I'm going to be nosey, but I'm wondering, when or if you decide to use one of these embabies to procreate, do you think the fact that you've taken steps and learned things about these embryos years in advance could change your relationship with the resulting child? As in, would you get attached to the fetus quicker because you've known about it for a long time, compared to people who typically find out they're pregnant weeks/months after the fact? Sorry if this is inappropriate
The thing that bothers me about abortion is not the pro-choice and pro-life debate, but rather the laws surrounded it. I personally will likely never get an abortion, and I find it a disheartening solution, but I do no believe it's moral to prevent all women from the option of an abortion just because of my views. Like Sam said, we can't dictate laws based on a single worldview when they are religiously based. If religion and government are supposed to be different, then pro-lifers should focus on regulating themselves.
I found out at exactly 6 weeks. But also in the middle of a faith crisis and still pro-life, because; salvation. And threats of disownment from family. I wish I'd been more informed. I do love my child, but this is a personal choice between a woman and her doctor. And the doctors should respect that. Because the conversation leaned toward disapproval and difficulty then and there. Plus congratulations was his first word getting back with my urinalysis results. I became very concerned for the little soul and all the things I'd deprive them of if I decided on abortion. I was adamant on that much. If I wasn't afraid of pregnancy before. I am now. It was miserable, I was sick, my body would reject whatever I tried. Migraines triggered more morning sickness. I was getting thinner as I was getting bigger. The taste and smell of things become nauseating and intolerable. 6 hours and I needed an epidural. btw I only found out the details of babies and sex. As I was going through it.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. Every little bit helps~ Hopefully there's a way to prevent too many more states from becoming a hell hole and maybe even revert the damage
I stumbled on this old video and wanted to leave a comment anyways. Thank you both for bringing this conversation to your audience. I’ll share in case any of your followers need to hear this story. I had an abortion 8 years ago. It was 100% my choice, not a medical need. I cried at the end- not because of “losing a baby” but because those doctors SAVED MY LIFE. I got overwhelmed by sadness that so many women do not get what I just got to have. I want to have kids SO badly, but it was not the right time or partner to have a kid. I will forever be grateful for the doctors who made it possible for me to live my life to its fullest. There are tens of thousands of women like me who made that choice and feel zero remorse or regret or loss. We made a choice for our own bodies and lives. I LOVE MY ABORTION. Period.
You did great!! Honestly, I didn’t even think about how God won’t punish a aborted fetus and how using their logic, the fetus would just go straight to heaven, seeing as it is without sin. So honestly, what harm is it doing? Robbing the child of a life it could live? If it is in gods Almighty plan for this child to live a life then he would just send the child to a different family. Otherwise it’s not within God’s plan, because nothing happens. That is not within God’s plan.
Kindly, the pro-life position is not typically based on religious views. Many pro-lifers are not religious, but are pro-life because the science is quite clear, if we are honest when tracing our lives all the way back to the very beginning, it started at conception. It's a growing, living human life, yes, moms life is just as important, but when given the option, should we not take every possible effort to protect both lives?
former mormon as well. but i have become pro-life from womb to natural death. and have donated money to wonderful organisations that help pregnant mothers find housing, get supplies, pay bills, etc.... not that anybody cares. but i figured i'd be the dissenting former mormon voice here. lolol. anyway.
I also hate that it’s often all on the women to prevent pregnancy when some women can’t do birth control because it’s harmful for them and men can pull out and wear condoms, but they don’t want to sometimes so then it’s the woman’s fault when it’s not. It takes two, yes, but he shouldn’t come inside her if he doesn’t want to risk it all. Personally I tried birth control and it hurt me and messed me up physically, hormonally and mentally. I had so many bad symptoms, constant cramping, bleeding and just a lot of excruciating pain (differing amount depending on type of birth control). We as women should not have to be fully responsible for putting our bodies through unnecessary and unnatural pain. I think people should make whatever choice is best for them (but men should help more) whether that is to be safe, use birth control, condoms, abortion, or give birth. There should be choice
Great video! You both approach it from a really thoughtful perspective. I have always found the Mormon policies for family sealings very contradictory with their abortion stance. On one hand, the LDS Church is adamantly against abortion. On the other, the Church's general policy is that a miscarried child (a.k.a. the child cannot survive outside the mother's womb) will not be sealed to families or on their family records. So if these ordinances and eternal families are core to personhood, God's plan, and eternal salvation, then they basically seem to affirm that a fetus is conferred its humanity and soul ONLY when it is viable outside the womb. This policy kinda undercuts their whole anti-abortion stance.
I'm trying to wrap my brain around not killing cows because they have a heartbeat, but how about the heartbeats of babies? I'm for women's rights. Please someone explain the difference to me. I never had this dilemma until this episode.
I would say that the problem is that a heartbeat is not what indicates that a being is alive and thinking. In development, the heartbeat starts long before the fetus has a functioning brain, so it's like the heartbeat of a braindead person. Meanwhile the cow is a fully developped animal that you could easily consider conscious because they can demonstrably show emotions and take decisions. People who use the heartbeat as a threshold of what counts as "a baby" are using sentimental reasoning, just because the heart has this mysticism and symbolism of emotion around it. But it doesn't have any more meaning than kidney function in regards to consciousness.
Whether or not this specific video “changes someone’s mind” I don’t think is that important. What IS important is continuing to have these conversations and providing rational well thought out arguments against an abortion ban (which OF COURSE was done well in this video). Although I do think people on the fence or who haven’t thought of it much will find this video beneficial and it’s important to provide this a as a resource so they don’t only see one side. But unfortunately I think you’re right when you mentioned an echo chamber (was it this video where this was said or another one of yours lol) where what you watch you see more of and it sends you down a specific rabbit hole. Regardless, these were some excellent points and I think as was stated in the beginning some of these points are ones that aren’t spoken of as regularly in the debate. While I’m not a Mormon or an ex Mormon I do come from a religious background a little similar and for some reason watching ex Mormon content is really relatable to me. Thanks for running this channel Samantha and Tanner!
You guys made some really good points in this video and I enjoyed hearing your perspectives. The percentage of lower income women having abortions should not be ignored. If people are pro life they should also be concerned about the quality of life after birth. Therefore you would expect them to be in favor of things like Medicare for all. I think a lot of pro life people are really only pro birth because there rarely is an honest discussion about the quality of a life after birth and the effects on the child, mother and society. You guys made some excellent points and I think you guys should do a follow on video.
I love how you brought veganism into it. It's a very relevant comparison between the value placed on humans of all levels of sentience and non-human animals who are sentient and killed en mass. Add to that the suffering caused by an unwanted pregnancy and ill-prepared parent(s) and the scales are weighted very heavily in favour of 'pro choice'.
This is such a difficult topic to talk about. I'm Christian and pro-life, and I want to let you guys know I appreciate the thoughtful way you shared your thoughts and opinions. You helped me see this issue from some angles I hadn't considered, and I thank you for that. I think it's important to seek to understand where people are coming from so we can have empathy for one another. 💗
Pro-life liberal here. First off, though I am religious, I don't claim to know exactly when the soul enters the body, I find that kind of irrelevant. I believe that life begins at conception because that's when unique human DNA is formed. I've heard the pro-choice argument that abortion is the same as getting anything else removed from the body, like the appendix or wisdom teeth. I got my wisdom teeth out this summer with no moral qualms because my wisdom teeth were just a part of me, with only my DNA. A child, on the other hand, no matter their developmental stage, is a unique human being. And, as far as being dependent on the mother for survival, so are newborns. In fact, plenty of disabled adults, including myself, are dependent on others for survival. Without personal assistants, I wouldn't be able to take myself to the bathroom, so I would shit myself and then slowly die from sepsis. And yet my life has worth (mostly). Furthermore, I agree that we need better sex education, access to birth control, and financial support for low-income mothers. And the foster care system needs some serious reform, but I feel like we're not going to get that so long as we have abortion as a seemingly easy fix for all those problems. I wish people would stop stereotyping all pro-lifers as fanatical old men who just want to control women. It's kind of insulting.
I’m really not on board with this implication that the existence of legal and accessible pregnancy termination is somehow responsible for poor sex education and underfunded foster care systems, and that criminalising abortion will fix those problems. If anything, pro-choice groups are the huge advocates for these things. Anti-choice, however, goes hand in hand with abstinence-only sex education and negligence of social and childcare services. And as for the verbiage of calling abortion an “easy way out”? It is not easy. Rethink that one please.
I don’t believe that they painted the anti-choice crowd as old white men, both Tanner and Samantha shared they previously held those beliefs. Abortion is absolutely not an easy decision or “quick fix” just as adoption is not. Your opinion is valid for your body-but you don’t have a right to tell me what to do with mine.
I am will ya! I believe the best way to minimize abortion is to continue to improve sex ed and make sure there are resources to help women! We don't have a family-friendly society in the U.S, so many changes need to take place for women to feel they can handle bringing a baby into the world. I also think it's important to note that people who don't believe in souls can also find abortion morally wrong. It can have zero affiliation with religion. I also find it weird to compare human embryos to animals. I love animals...but if I had to choose between any animal and a human, I would pick a human. It's weird that people just assume all people who lean towards pro-life are also in alignment with a list of conservative values. I don't believe in capital punishment, I believe in quality sex ed, I believe in women should get resources if they aren't prepared for a child... I also don't see getting pregnant after having consensual sex as a punishment. It's just a natural consequence.
I respect your perspective, even though I do not agree with you. I see your point. However, I do have to point out that all of the items you listed that we need-sex ed, access to birth control, financial support, etc. are opposed by most in the pro-life community and are high on the legislative agenda of the pro-choice community. I think we can both agree that if we had these programs the number of abortions would decrease, and that would be a good thing.
I'm just curious as to why whose DNA is involved is even a problem. By that logic, you could not kill bacteria because they have their own unique DNA and it's not for you to decide if a being that doesn't have your DNA should die. Maybe looking into how DNA works would help you deconstruct the myths around DNA and how people kind of ascribe woo woo magic properties to it. DNA is really not that big of a deal once you learn about it more. It is really interesting don't get me wrong, it's just not this sacred magic thing people seem to think it is.
Different cultures throughout history have decided to define what a human being is in different ways. I don't want to make the same error that other cultures have of defining human life too narrowly and slaughtering innocent people for the sake of convenience. It has nothing to do with religion. It is about not wanting to repeat the horrors that religious and non religious people have participated in.
I think it’s much more sensible and compassionate to value the life and wellbeing of a woman over an embryo or a fetus that is literally a part of her body and requires her to grow and birth it in order to become a living human being. Fetuses develop nerve endings around the start of the third trimester, and abortions only take place after that if there’s a medical reason. “Convenience” is a reductive way of talking about a person not being forced to grow and birth a new human they don’t want to grow and birth. Pregnancy is one of the biggest risk factors for death for women of child-rearing age and the trauma of being forced to do it when you don’t want to…I can’t even imagine. Plus the trauma of poverty (extremely big deal in the US, where the average baby costs more to have than the royal baby did), unprepared parents, etc. It’s forcing people to begin or continue a cycle of intergenerational trauma that could last indefinitely. If I got pregnant right now and abortion was illegal, you can bet I’d do whatever it took to terminate it. As many women do-hence why making abortion illegal just means more unsafe abortions. It makes sense to have a professional do it safely for me.
@@ZelphOntheShelf and I respect that perspective. People talk past each other because they think one perspective comes from a desire to harm when in fact I think the majority on both sides come from a place of wanting to minimize harm. The only signiificant difference is that one group sees a person as being human before birth, and another sees a person as being human after birth. If a person wants to be consistent with their ethics, and they see an unborn child as being human the only way to be consistent is to advocate for the child to have the same rights any other human has. This doesn't mean though that abortion is never ethically justified for one who sees an unborn child as a person. In the US we have a general ethical belief in the right to self defense. if a man or woman reasonably feels their life is threatened by another person of any age they have the right to use lethal force to preserve their own life. Intentional killing for any reason is tragic even if it is from one person defending themselves against another but I see how the right to self defense is important to uphold as long as we don't pretend that a person wasn't killed in the act when in a fact they were. There is another real problem with abortion culture right now though too that gets ignored and that is the pressure young mothers are under to abort their pregnancies by men and other authority figures in their lives in the US. My wife was a pregnant teen before I met her. She was encouraged by adults she respected to kill her developing daughter over economic concerns and because they thought she wasnt ready. She is an unusually strong person who doesn't bend to the will of respected adults when she thinks they are wrong so she said no to their advice. None of this has anything to do with religion. People encouraging the abortion were religious, my wife wasn't and isnt. My beautiful step daughter just graduated high school and every day I admire how strong my wife was in the face of that sort of pressure and fearmongering from people around her. Unwanted pregnancy is a hard situation no matter what but the pressure these women are under to abort their pregnancies adds to the trauma and anxiety and is especially horrifying when it comes from the men who caused the pregnancies and just want an easy way out for themselves. The pro choice movement can by accident cause more pain to women and I hope would be willing to self reflect and adjust accordingly.
Adoption is often promoted as the alternative to abortion. But this is not the "perfect solution" that the proponents suggest. Many adoptees have serious trauma issues because of being adopted. The toll on a child to know that their own biological mother did not want them is a major burden for adoptees. Getting adopted into a loving family that wants you does not erase the trauma of having been unwanted by your birth family. Many adoptees with very loving adoptive families have a lot of emotional pain that they have to work through.
Not to mention the physical and emotional toll on the pregnant person who gives up the baby. There are a ton of medical complications that can happen, even with a young healthy woman. Also the immense finance burden of the pregnancy and giving birth. Someone who is low income likely works in a job that won't be understanding about missing work for doctors appointments, etc. Plus a lot of these lower pay hourly jobs dont even offer health insurance! Ugh it's just so frustrating how little these people think through all of these potential consequences. It is not, and never will be, as simple as adoption or "just close your legs"
its taking me a while to abandon the premortal life belief. i dont believe it anymore but the emotions from believing it still pop up, especially with the abortion argument
From reading these comments, it is clear to me that most people here have not actually spoken to a pro-life person. If anyone wants to, or has a question, I'm available :) Here is my statement: I believe that human life begins at conception and is precious until natural death. I base all other positions on that belief.
@@ZelphOntheShelf no I'm not. I love animals, but the love I have for them is not the same as the love I have for other humans. Humans are meant to be stewards over animals, while treating humans as equals.
@@pizzadohpaz You can be Pro-Life and Pro-Choice at the same time. I agree with your statement, but I still want people to be able to make those tough decisions on their own, without a government forcing them against their will. Let me put it this way... If I was in the womb of a woman who was even considering aborting me, I'd say to go ahead and do it because why would I want to be dependent on someone who never wanted me in the first place? And if you believe in the concept of souls, then a just God could take me out of the aborted baby and put me in a baby of a mother who really wanted to have me just as easily as he put me there in the first place. And if you feel there needs to be a punishment, I'm sure God can take care of that in the after-life. So there's really nothing for Pro-Lifers to worry about. It's all about shame and control, and it needs to stop.
Why don’t they consider women who are in danger during a pregnancy and could potentially lead to the women’s and babies death? It seems like they care more about a baby being born, then they do about the safety abs well-being of people men & women alike who exist now.
Actually, most Catholics are fine with birth control. Vatican II gave freedom of conscience, and while some individual priests, bishops, individuals might not agree with it, we can clearly see that most Catholic women are using birth control because the birth rate per family has significantly dropped. My Catholic grandmother was told that she had freedom of conscience and nothing to confess regarding her use of birth control in the '60s. Also, the Bible doesn't suggest that the soul enters the body or that life begins until after birth when the baby takes a breath.
Nope! I would disagree that "most" Catholics use birth control and that it is fine. According to Catholic documents (such as the Catechism) birth control is NOT accepted. What we are good with is called Natural Family Planning, which is 97-99% effective if used correctly. Look into it and you won't have to use uncomfortable condoms or put foreign chemicals/objects into your body! It's an all natural solution :)
@@pizzadohpaz My grandmother was told in the '60s that Vatican II (which occurred in January 1959) gave freedom of conscience. My grandmother was a devout Catholic. That said, it really depends on how conservative your diocese and your Bishop are. Natural family planning doesn't work that well, because no one gets it perfect, so the reliability just isn't there. That's why most Catholic families had 5-7 children when my parents were growing up. Nowadays, that number is much lower.
@@actingqween when your parents were growing up we didn't understand science (and especially the female body) as well as we do now. I know for a fact that my parents AND my brother and sister-in-law used NFP and it was very effective. Put some CURRENT research into NFP and what the Church teaches these days. The sixties were a long time ago...
@@pizzadohpaz I am well aware that a lot has changed since then, but again, since most people don't do it perfectly, the reliability is lacking. It only works, if it is done perfectly. And, you probably won't like this, but I'm going to cite Planned Parenthood's website as my source. They do say that a person can do natural family planning, however, they explain that it is not very reliable because people often make mistakes.
i appreciate all of your guy’s addition to the discussion. you guys make things so articulate and i’m sure change people’s minds all the time. you guys do so much good for the world and i love you tons!❤️also thank you tanner for advocating for women cause it’s not often that we see men be so understanding and go out of their way to make women’s lives easier. love you both! wish for the best for both of you!❤️❤️❤️
As a Christian, I don’t believe the prolife argument is based on belief in souls. I’ve actually never heard of that before. We consider unborn babies just as valuable as the pregnant mother, and just want them to have the same right to life. If you don’t believe people have souls, do you think it is acceptable to kill a born, innocent person? It seems to be all the same to me.
Of course it's not acceptable to kill a born person. And of course we don't want to see babies killed in the womb either. But that's not for us to enforce on every pregnant woman--That's for them to decide, and for us to stay the hell out of.
@@mandylape927 I already said "No", but I see the point that you're trying to make (which is a good one) is at what point do we step in? And I say once the baby is born. But if you insist it should be earlier than that, then I'm willing to compromise and say how about at the 3-month or 6-month stage? It definitely should NOT be at 6 weeks because often times people don't even know if they're pregnant at that point. And yes, we are all animals, so if you fight for every baby in the womb to be born, you should definitely become vegan and fight for every animal to never be killed as well, which is not a bad idea Mandy!
just as you can make the same argument about people who are pro-life that don’t care about the life of animals, why is it that you care for the animals but not the life of a human being? no matter the size of the fetus, it is still living.
I'm vegan but not an extremist. I have to kill rats, mice, ants and cockroaches. I hate doing it but if I don't they will take over my house. I don't like the thought of killing a fetus. Most women would hate to have an abortion but sometimes it's the right thing to do. I was always pro choice but said I could never go through an abortion myself. But then I became disabled. If I got pregnant now I would probably have to have an abortion. I already have three kids, I'm broke now and I'm too sick to take care of myself let alone a baby then toddler and then another child for the next 18 years.
It's only dependent on a soul insofar as the souls existence is needed to establish the value of human life. Many who don't believe in souls still assert the value of human life.
Why would someone who doesn’t believe in a soul believe that a fertilized egg is more valuable than sperm and eggs individually? Every time you use birth control you stop the potential for new humans to be born.
@@ZelphOntheShelf to avoid being arbitrary, or inconsistent in how you value human life. At the point of conception you have a unique living human organism. Before that you have half a human genetics code. Anywhere you draw the line after conception becomes either arbitrary ex surely a baby 1 minute before birth is no less a person than a baby 1 minute after. Or you are inconsistent a developing Embryo may have no ability to feel pain (the Utilitarian requirement for human worth) but neither does a person in a coma they will likely come out of. To be consistent we would have to deny personhood to both.
I think seeing it as a part of a woman’s body for as long as it’s dependent on a woman’s body is the least arbitrary road to go down, as it is the one that involves the least suffering. A woman has a whole ass life and family and friends and the potential to be really traumatized if she’s forced to grow and birth a human she doesn’t want to grow and birth. And that affects society in horrible ways. We keep people in comas on life support because we believe there’s a reasonable chance they’ll recover, and THEY have a whole ass life and family and friends. And when it becomes less likely that they’ll recover, we allow the family of the person to decide whether to let them go or not-because they are the ones who will be most affected by the decision. I think it’s disingenuous to act like there’s not a giant difference between an embryo/fetus and a living (especially adult) human being. It’s like how I’m vegan but I will kill flies sometimes if I need to-because the suffering of a fly is markedly different from the suffering of a cow. That being said, I try not to kill flies, and I think we should try to prevent abortions through the most effective, non-traumatizing ways we can: access to contraception and comprehensive sex ed. I prefer to ask “what causes the least amount of suffering?” than “when does life begin?”, whatever that question means given that life is everything everywhere always.
@@ZelphOntheShelf because I try to be consistent I'm against IVF. There are several problems with determining personhood based on dependence. One is that it makes personhood dependent on avaliable medical technology. Imagine medicine tomorrow makes a fetus "viable" at six weeks does that make her then a person? And if the technology is lost for some reason she then becomes not a person? I think your also in danger of making personhood dependent on relationships. An unwanted man or woman is still a person. As far as acting like there isn't a difference between a fetus and adult. What precisely is that difference and why is it morally significant? You sited suffering but neither the man in a coma, nor the fetus suffers. Why is one a person and the other not?
Thanks for sharing your video. I’m vegan and agree with a lot of your points. I’m also pro choice but I do not like abortion and I do understand how it is m”rder and horrible. I was s a’d and made pregnant with my first. I kept the baby and was in a horrible situation and single mom. Now I’m married and we have a second and it’s been a long time but there is a lot to deal with still. Nobody can prepare for it. And it doesn’t go away. But I think getting termination could make things worse. And my point is I made my choice to keep mine but I know how hard it was for me and know people have it better or worse but still I don’t want to force someone else to make the choice I did. ❤️ I commented on pal and Morgan’s recent one about it, from another account, to try to explain to them why the choice is important even when it is not r”p e. I believe in s e x Ed in kindergarten. Education and support will lower the amount of them and Christians don’t want that. So while I do think there should be a voice to represent the unborn, I still believe in the choice to be pregnant or not or carry a baby or not etc. I don’t think it’s all about souls though. I was just taught murder is against the ten commands and that it’s murder bc that baby is being k”lled. And I can agree and see where they are coming from. Sometimes the lesser of two evils really is the best option. I appreciate you two so much and love listening to your channel. I loved the points about animals too, they ignore that stuff.
I think many pro-lifers see some of the damages that can be done through abortion and consider the whole thing evil. When in reality I think having more support for the pregnant women and an honest thorough education on the types and risks of abortion is what's needed. Many stories I've read from prolife women about their traumatic abortion is a tragic result of having no friend or family support, emotional turmoil from hormonal change, lower quality medical procedure due to secrecy, and guilt. There is a TED talk by Josiah Friedman that talks about that.
I hear so many people say "I don't care if anyone else does it, but I think abortion is wrong so I'm pro-life," and it upsets me. So many people calling themselves "Pro-life" have been tricked into thinking the argument is for or against abortion. IT'S NOT. The argument is weather or not we allow other people to do this thing, REGARDLESS of how we feel personally. If you hate abortions, and you would never want to have one yourself/see a loved one have one, but you don't give two shits about what other people are doing, YOU'RE PRO-CHOICE. Stop fighting against a movement that is giving people their rights. We're on the same side, my dude
As serious as this topic is, did anyone else think of Monty Python when they started discussing Sperm? "Every Sperm is Sacred, Every Sperm is Good". My thoughts are with those impacted by this in the US.
My view is simply that at fertilization the cell has its own DNA and therefore is a separate entity to have rights, however it can also be considered a trespasser or parasite at that point so you have to consider the rights of the host. The problem is at what point does a government get to side with one entity over another. And even worse at what point does the government get to do something on behalf of someone because the government doesn't respect that someone's ability to decide for his or her own self( basically you don't get to say anything for yourself till a certain age,18 in the US). Is it better to be unwanted than dead? Similar to the idea if one has a terminal illness that causes lots of pain might "assisted suicide" be an allowed murder? I'm of the opinion that I will always try to persuade against abortion but like with many things I don't necessarily feel any government has a right to interfere especially when it can't be certain what is best for either party. The truth is death isn't the worst possible outcome in life. It's the same dilemma as always trying to decide at what point does one need to get involved in other people's affairs. Death must happen for life to continue, even plants make use of old dead material for nutrients, certain animals can only be carnivores. Plant or animal must die for me to live, and one day I'll die, unless I've been taught wrong and can live off minerals. Focus more on incentives to promote your beliefs rather than on force. Work harder to make it easier and possibly even beneficial to see pregnancies through and promote finding better ways to avoid unwanted pregnancies.
If the air pollution is causing miscarriages... It's the planet defending it's self from more over population. The air pollution has been very sickening for a lot of people this last summer.
