Infinite food storage changed, time to revisit our designs. Also a few tips on how to make food storage easier. Large live map Save drive.google.c... / francisjohn Credits song - Aaron Kenny - Happy Haunts
Highly recommended the Thermal Tooltips mod to see the conductivity and thermal mass information in the build menu as well as lots of other thermal info.
Coming back to this to refresh my memory on something while working out an early game cooling loop, something that maybe wasn't available to be a consideration back in the day; Thermo Regulator cooling loop using Hydrogen, and Uranium Ore. For whatever reason, Uranium Ore has a TC of 40! It's still not as good as Steel (54?) but since there's typically a pocket of Uranium ore nearby the starting biom, an early game kitchen loop can easily make use of the ore for Radiant Gas Pipes, and, if you're me, a Uranium Ore Mechanised Airlock for a little bit of germ killing radiation (not to mention a decent boost in SHC over metal tiles and no need to refine anything)
Simpler solution is to put your food storage in the back of your mess hall. Dupes will pick up the dropped food before grabbing more out of storage. Dupes grab the 1st object they can pass by.
Or placing the kitchen so that all dupes must pass the great hall in order to reach any stored food. It's a nice "hidden" mechanic (just tried it in a test-map), and this is something I'll be doing in the future. Thanks ❤
For everyone asking, ONI considers carbon dioxide, chlorine, hydrogen, and vacumes as sterile atmospheres and nothing else. When determining whether food is in deep freeze or not the temperature of the actual food is only considered when it's in a vacuum, else it uses the temperature of the atmosphere it's in. To my knowledge the presence or lack thereof of anything else (radiation, germs, etc) are ignored for determining food spoil rates.
This appears to have changed in one of the recent patches. I just built a similar food freezer and the food didn't changes its storage state (refrigerated, deep freeze) until the object's own temperature dropped to the requisite temperature. I observed this in both a vacuum and in chlorine. I decided to stick with -25 in chlorine.
@@markdescalzo9404 if freshly cooked food loses freshness (great phrazing there ^^) in a -18°C sterile environment, then it's a bug. Haven't been any changes to this since the vacuum update.
@@salemprompthous3820 I didn't mean to say it lost freshness. I meant that the preservation state appears to now be governed by the internal temperature of the food regardless of whether it is in a vacuum or not. Put another way, in the freezer I just built the state did not change until the food's temperature did not change to refrigerated and then deep freeze until the food item's temperature dropped. I observed this in both a vacuum and in chlorine gas. This is different than previous observed behavior. I will validate when next I fire up the game.
there's another way to solve the food left behind by the dupes after eating. place your food storage at the deep end of your mess hall. every time they want to grab a bite, they go past the food on the floor and, in my experience at least, they grab it every time. if your food can last a cycle on the floor, you're sorted
I just build my infinite food storage based on your playthrough design and also wish I would have put the metal tile under the food. Oh well...I guess I can try to fix it if I really want to. Thanks for the concise tutorial!
Can't you build an insulated tile underneath the storage's 'floor', and diagonally replace the tile? Then scoop the debris with dupes or Auto-sweeper, depending on the model.
@@deltastudios6632 yes, this is very much a viable solution. It's what I did when I noticed the error in FJ's playthrough design, and fixed it using your tip. Deconstruct any buildings underneath the storage spot, build ladders so dupes can reach, and no scooping required afterwards, as the metal tile will push the food back up to it's designated spot.
I spent a HOT second trying to realize my own versions of a deep freezer... Turns out I was overcomplicating, I forgot specific heat capacity was a thing. You're a life saver Francis! Thank you for posting such helpful content, I always come to your channel for help if I need it. And I need it a lot. ♥
One mistake I made while making my own version was that I froze my hydrogen all the way down to -70 going into the chill box. This froze the chlorine inside, and liquid chlorine actually doesn't count as a sterile environment. If you're using chlorine as the intermediary gas, don't cool it down below -34C
This is one of the finnicky things about the infinite storage, especially if storing in chlorine. Safest I've found, is to set the thermal/aquatuner automation to activate "if above -20°C", which will make the lowest temp possible be -34°C, 2°C above liquification temp of chlorine, aswell as 2°C lower than deep frozen requirements. Served me beautifully in hundreds of cycles, never failed once the -20°C temperature has been achieved.
@@leviben7394 as someone else posted in this thread, the only environments that are considered "Sterile", are Chlorine gas, Hydrogen gas, CO2 gas and Vacuum. Nothing else is considered sterile in regards of food storage in ONI. Edit: for storage in vacuum, the food itself needs to be at -18°C to be considered deep frozen, but here there are some instances where the food can go bad even so (on game load, there are some calculation errors where food in vacuum might be mistreated and lose some freshness. If done frequent enough, that food will turn into a rot pile eventually. This is less of a problem early-game, as there aren't really that much for the game to calculate, but I've found this to be a huge factor late-game when there are a lot of calculations to be done on game loading)
@@salemprompthous3820 technically no liquids will ever be sterile "atmosphere" but if I remember right wheat grains for example arent going bad in oxygen environment for example due to cold in the biome as they fall off the plant. Even if its not considered as sterile atmosphere does it actually go bad if the food itself is cooled to deep freeze temp? I haven't seen anyone try to preserve food in liquid with expectation of it not to rot but i guess liquid chlorine did not work. Have you tried liquid co2?
@@leviben7394 in ONI, no liquids are considered a sterile environment, simple as that. And, the sleet wheat is the only exception to any of the deep freeze rules, as they are considered deep frozen at a much higher temperature (don't remember off the top, but I do know it's not even close to the -18°C most other foods require) can be found in the in-game info-section on the sleet wheats
maybe a bit of a noob question, but how do i get 1 tile of chlorine to start with? you cant build conveyor chutes diagonally anymore, so how do i go about putting chlorine/a vaccuum in 1 tile for the storage?
Tricky to explain, easier to show. Below is the last method I used, but there are many ways to achieve the same goal. Do remember that if you just make it a vacuum first you can use the drop off to put in bleach stone and it will off gas chlorine. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2B-62y4Tiwo.html
For reference, a radiant gas pipe made of steel has 108 TC. The only decent alternatives are aluminum ore (41) and wolframite(30). Everything else is below 10. Given that you don't have to transfer too much and that you can go really low temp (the greater the difference, the faster the transfer) aluminum ore and wolframite are ok even for large scale operation. Copper ore (9) isn't bad for smaller storages.
Was thinking the same thing. As long as the colony has the time to wait, ores can be used. Steel is more effective, but with time, alu and wolfr can be used as decent placeholders. This is for the gas pipes, though, as liquid pipes arent hampered in the same way, capable of being built with all the same materials as the metal tiles and doors
I heavily recommend you use weight plates (i know) instead of metal tiles at the bottom. The lag having 36million calories in one spot when you mouse over isn't worth the big numbers of spare calories and you can automate the grills to keep only a couple hundred thousand extra instead and it's much healthier for your computer/playthrough.
I feel so smart. I made that little 1x1 chlorine food chamber by putting in water and using my hydrogen cooling loop to freeze it, then fed in some bleach stone to fill up the vacuum =D
I was searching how people get that gas into one enclosed tile with conveyor chute already stuffing it. Thanks! Now my only issue is that how do i build the Chute, since it looks like it cannot be built diagonally like tiles
@@Cenon2_ Crazy timing on your rely i'm actually about to build this again right now on a new save. Build the chute, and then splash a small amount of water on the tile and build the roof so it's enclosed (the water will displace the gas.) Then run your hydrogen loop which will freeze the water creating a vacuum. Then toss in the bleach stone and it should off gas immediately turning the vacuum into chlorine.
tried doing this 6/5/23 and the dupes cannot access the food in the closed off square with corners missing anymore. says it's unreachable. can't even get it from the angles either, yet they can still build through corner angles.
Been waiting for the right time to get back into the game, and my first question going in was "what's the best way to store food now?" thanks for the vids as always. You're the best.
Would it had been easier to place a drop of water in there. Build your metal plates and the conveyor belt. Use the themoregulator to snap freeze the water in ice, which falls toward the top side. Essentually leaving a vaccum. Would have saved a whole headache involving the gas pump and redoing it all,
I just use a wheeze wort in a hydrogen container and use an autosweeper to feed it hydrogen and put food into a fridge right in my great hall. Works really really well since the weezewort gets down to -71c. It would take a huge mass of hot food to bring that above -17c.
I created my sterile food chute using this tutorial, with one ceramic tile built above the conveyer chute. For anyone reading in Jan 2022 or past: It seems due to an update, or (maybe personal error) that gasses are able to escape diagonally from the chute. I set a temporary loader to load some bleach stone into the chute area in an attempt to make a small chlorine pocket, but the stone was able to off gas into the surrounding area diagnolly. Bleach stone was completely consumed by off-gassing after a few cycles. However, it appears carbon is able to become trapped in the small area overtime, so the method still works.
gases always could move diagonally, they just don't do it much. A gas can move diagonally if it is in the confined area, and another gas spawn on top of the prior gas, this is a principle that extremely efficient electrolyzes designs use.
From what I've seen on my most recently playthrough, things inside your cooking stations seems to never go off. It's not perfect as an infinite storage solution, but it's a nice interim storage solution when your temporary refrigerator is full.
Yeah, that does seem to be the case. I was worried about things going off in the grill in my single dupe colony and I've seen 1% bristle berries get thrown in without any issues
Something tells me that they will eventually nerf diagonal auto-sweeper access the same way they did it to dupes. That's why I build my deep freezers with auto-grabber separated by liquid lock in a locked room, just to avoid any troubles after eventual update.
@@pairot01 Yeah, but it's unlikely. Why would they leave access through doors for so long then? Auto sweeper sucking items through doors seems much more unrealistic.
May I suggest something I’ve seen everyone do but escapes me… the evolution chambers I build don’t have a door on top.. you can just seal it off completely in obsidian tiles (shove vole permitting) this way you don’t have something like a door in the way.. also egg shells drop out of the evolution chamber by themselves.
The evo-chamber shown here can be Vole-permitting too: door made from refined metals (most, if not all, of which stops the voles), and tiles made from obsidian. This drowns the voles just as easily as it does other critters, aswell as being easy to set up (as long as one has access to the materials needed, ofc) without any complicated automation or background systems (rails, pipes and such)
In early days I used AOTN for this, recently I only produced 100k so it would get consumed quick. I might start to do berry sludge farms, I am such a lazy oni player, everytime I put half the effort to just rush the end game and then I am unhappy because everything is a mess.
12:10 I recommend mod "refined metals can be used as ores as well" refined alu gas pipe are nice as well. Best solution if possible is chlorine, as its killing germs as well, and getting any sickness takes 5-25% of your dupe day, not dramatic loss, but annoying one. I drop liquid chlorine or solid one (not bleach stone) if I have some, so tile after it gets to gasseus state will be under 500 KG of gas, if possible. this gives it a little bit of inertia, so it is not fluctuating as much.
There has been a mod that allows construction of radiant pipes (and a few other things, perhaps) from refined materials - not sure if it got a DLC update.
Great vid, personally I don't bother early game.. thermo regular inside the base with 2 to 4 weezwort and it is perfectly fine at least for my last 600 cycles ^^'
Another option I did with a micro colony was installing a brick of metal tiles with a conveyor system set to send my food through it to a vacuum chamber and got my food down low enough it was deep frozen, resource intensive but worth every bit
Remember to keep an eye on this setup, as game-loading calculations has a tendency to stagger. By this, I mean that even if the food is at a deep frozen temperature, the game doesn't always see that and looks at the surroundings instead, letting vacuum stored -50°C food still lose some freshness (eventually, turning that 1mill stack of food into a rot pile). Safest bet is to store it in a sterile gas, then this never happens
I find that putting an ambient thermo sensor inside the food storage is a much tighter way of regulating the temperature than a gas pipe thermo sensor somewhere on the loop. I tried the gas pipe sensor but my food kept going off bcus hot food would come in and it would take a while for the thermo regulator to kick in bcus the hydrogen was still cold.
Good point in automation, really. Aka: "TAKE YOUR MEASUREMENTS IN THE PLACE YOU REGULATE, NOT SOMEWHERE ELSE" But it's also good to just cool 3 tiles of space to the -51C and be done with it.
I found an issue with this. In particular my Thermo regulator was getting damaged. I found out that because the thermo sensor is more than 1 away from it, it was sending the wrong packet of air in, while the hot air was being let to pass. So each time around it make that one packet colder and colder and colder until it started breaking the regulator. I fixed it by moving the thermo sensor to be inside of the steam chamber and right by the intake... just something to consider. ( I was using your first design from the spaced out playthrough)
better always set up a steam engine above tuners,even if they produce very little heat. in the late game you just don´t have the nerve to micro-manage those things (in my humble oppion :)
I've been using a two square top access storage locker that holds food/ingredients with the kitchen right underneath. It's cooled by aquatuner with naphtha as coolant. Copied it from a Chinese oni player and have been tinkering with it. The biggest issue so far is the chill. That whole area is around 11c outside the locker but It's pretty neat so far.
None of this is necessary any more, lol, I'm trying to deal with endlessly stacking barbecue using just the spice grinder right now. The preserving spice from the spice grinder gives a +13% freshness, so all the bbq in my CO2 fridges has 100% freshness. It only uses salt and mealwood seeds and I always start with pickled mealwood as my starter food So I always have lots of seeds. I'm up to 300k calories of bbq at cycle 200. So here I am with food that doesn't spoil and I'm running out of space for other food. I'm going to build a deep freeze just to have a place to put it all.
I found that fridges in vaccum overheat over time cause it is not exchanging heat with atmosphere..... the same reason robominers in space overheat without that blob of petroleum
Not mentioned is the terrible thermal conductivity of CO2, nor the 25x multiplier for heat transfer between solid tiles and gasses. So terrible in fact you can have a 3 tile deep open co2 pit cooled to -25, and a single thermoregulator is still enough to keep it cooled. Add in some metal tiles for that nice 25x multiplier and you'll want to run your radiant pipes through the tiles rather than the co2 itself.
Make a circle of insulated tiles. With the bottom tiles in-line with the floor of your mess hall. Remove the bottom right and the middle left. Add a oil/ethanol/naptha airlock to the middle left spot and put your kitchen in the room below. As in the video, a single steel radiant pipe, drop-off chute & CO2 atmosphere (high pressure, resistant to change). Add one sweep to be in range of the chilled spot and another outside that, so you can load food back into loaders, to drop-off into your chiller. Minimal dupe travel time for cooking and eating!
For thermal mass, as well as ease of vacuuming out the food storage pit since you can't build the conveyor chutes through corners anymore, I like to build my pipes, rails, and chute and then dump just over 1000kg of water into it before sealing it off with the final insulated tile. The top tile will just freeze into ice debris as long as you don't put too much in too much water (less than 800kg, so it's hard to put in that much on accident lol) and I've found that a lot easier than messing with liquid droplets or however else you'd want to build your chute in a vacuum. It gives you quite the initial spin-up time but you have over twenty times the thermal mass of an aluminum tile. Once you have the vacuum you just finish it off by dropping in some bleach stone. The conductivity isn't great at around 2 (vs aluminum's 205) but it certainly beats out sitting on an insulated tile which is usually fine on its own and I haven't had any spoilage after about 1200 cycles. If you wanted to have the best of both worlds you could always make the pit three deep with a water tile, an aluminum or diamond tile on top of that, and then a drop of water for the vacuum once it freezes, and you could run your conveyors from the bottom through the ice and tile to give it that much more pre-chill before being dropped off in your deep-freeze box. Just like the radiant pipes, you'd want to make sure to make those rails out of steel as well for the massive conductivity bonus
Couldn't get this to work for the life of me! Changed the tiles in the imideate freezer to steel, still stayed at about 6°C. Boxed those steel tiles in with insulated tiles, hey presto! -20° and deep frozen food. Thanks man! :)
You should not need to so long are you are using a gas atmosphere. If a food is chilled to -18 or the gas the food is in is chilled to -18 it counts itself as deep frozen. So even if the food is 20C so long as the surrounding atmosphere is --18 or less then it's already classified as deep frozen.
In my attempt to build this, for some reason I cannot build the conveyor chute diagonally anymore. I built the cross of tiles and then demolished the middle tile to create the vacuum, but my dupes won't build the chute. They seem to have no issue building wires, vents, or conveyor rails, just not the chute. Trying to build it with a mini pump now
A 6x6 ceramic -38°C CO2 fridge box (3000 cycle proof), you just need two wheezewort, 0 watt (except for the conveyor loader) One wheezewort wasn't enough, when 80°C food is constantly added by the conveyor chute (you need low conductivity gas co2 is perfect, avoid hydrogen) It stored 28000000 kCal at some point Access from the top with plastic ladders (plastic has low conductivity, mafic can probably do the job too)
good to put drywall made from ign rock in storage chamber. It have high mass (800kg) and Ok'ish STC (1.000), and work as massive thermal buffer. And I prefer hydrogen and ethanol as liquid lock.
2:39 "So long as you keep it in a sterile atmosphere and have it deep frozen" *looks at the tooltip* "Get 'em while they're hot!" Ok then.. :D Edit: We hope your holiday is going well too
If your food is below -18 C, you can put it into void and it won't decay because If there is no gas in the tile that food stays, the game uses food's own temperature to calculate whether it should decay or not. The only problem is you need to cool it down really much because in conveyor belts it gets hot very quickly. What I did was cool down the food below -200 C by cycling it in metal tiles that cool by super coolant and transport it to mess hall (food heats up to -40 C in the transporting process) and throw on top of an insulated tile. This is a really expensive way but it works very well.
Third option for deep freezing: Wheezeworts. Using the vacuum storage (at 2:25) as an example, just change the two insulated tiles to the right of the food with metal tiles, and plant a wheezewort on the other side. It'll take 20-30 cycles to get down to deep freeze territory, but it'll get there. Bonus points: plant several wheezeworts in the area, put down a radbolt generator a material science lab. Chilling your food and doing some science
It might benefit you to have berry sludge either refrigerated or in chlorine. If it isn’t then food poisoning germs will grow practically endlessly on it if the tiniest amount gets contaminated.
Chlorine can easily bounce into liquid, has low HC and takes stuff like frostbun forever to cooldown itself. I find hydrogen gas to be a better option at cooling the actual food and not liquefying. and at temps like -100 it kills germs superfast and freezes your food very fast. (stays deepfrozen all the way to 52B ) I use that with ethanol liquid lock which also is an excellent isolator.
If using a Thermal Regulator / Aquatuner, setting the pipe thermal sensor to "above -20°C" negates the finnicky chlorine state-changes (as this will only cool it to -34°C, where chlorine liquifies at ~-36°C), and foods stay below the deep frozen -18°C. Served me flawlessly hundreds of cycles
@@salemprompthous3820think my food comes in large batches, no matter how much metal plate i put inside every now and then the temp goes above -20 when alot of food comes or it turns liquid. so i just did hydrogen and the food stays superfozen even if there is a power outage and during delivery . I just dont see the advantage of chlorine. Lol the germs even die on food OUTSIDE the fridge because its so cold :D
@@fortheregm1249 ofc, if you don't mind that extra chill spreading, then that works great. My comment was more for those who don't want that to happen. The only reason (as you implied) to use chlorine, is to keep germs off the food, and if chlorine gasses are too much of a hassle to keep stable (which my previous comment makes it, atleast for the infinite storage solution), then using "super-chilled" hydrogen works just as well, though without a vacuum seal to that hydrogen, that'll also cool down the base and give hypothermia to the dupes.
@@salemprompthous3820 ethanol is a horrible conductor, i just logged in and had a look now. the hydrogen is at -100c & base is at 20 c. the one oxygen tile next to ethanol is 12c and the one next to that at 18c. if anything you can place your grill close to it so that it wont get too hot. no atmo suits in this base btw. the chill WOULD be a problem with polluted water or petroleum, not ethanol . there probably is a better liquid but i havent looked at them all, i just had some ethanol close by. btw you can push it all the way to -200c and the ethanol itself wont get to -100c and so wont freeze . but that's just insanity .
the auto-sweepers can, you have the auto-sweepers pick up a small amount of food diagonally and transfer it into a fridge set to 1kg, it's shown in the video
@@FrancisJohnYT You have what looks like an automurderer there is what I mean. I had a good design that worked well, but with updates I'm running into issues with liquid deletion when the water is pushed up. You seem to be doing it with trapping them under a door in liquid, which I haven't been able to suss on my own. I have a feeling you might have already explained it to us but I can't find it, sorry if so.
@@Davini994 Ah an evolution chamber. It's fairly handy I stole it from a reddit post. Got the video linked below, go to 11:53 Note you can also put the Convery chute above the door as eggs fall through it. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BUD71i3fvOA.html
That is one thing I have always had problems with. Over making food. If you have so much food you could play for 2000 cycles without running out, why would you waste any more time cooking?
Fridges consume 120w when the food stored is at another temperature than 4°C (which is what the fridges heat up / cool down the food to), but once the food reaches that temperature, the fridges stop their "high-power workload", and drop down to using only 20w in order to keep the food at 4°C. There's probably some way of cheesing this, but I don't see any reason to do so, considering all the other systems that can be used to achieve heat deletion cheesiness.
@@salemprompthous3820 It will be at least amusing to see cooling system based on conveyors of berry sludge rotated around the base and it will even more bizarre if it will delete the heat :D
@@rogo7330 lol 🤣🤣🤣 A hillarious idea, that's for sure, and now I'm picturing FJ using berry sludge instead of diamond in his magma-cooler 🤣 Wouldn't be nearly as effective, unless effective is measured in laughs and giggles
Hey John. I could be wrong, but I think this is the wrong approach. Infinite food storage is satisfying, but you’ll use less dupe labor if you use a reorder point system. Turn food production off at, say, 6 days worth of calories, and back on at 4 days worth of calories. Or, the approximate equivalent mass. Just letting food production run unchecked results in millions of calories which are never eaten. I guess there’s no reason you can’t do both to minimize labor and keep your food fresh, but a reorder point system should “naturally” keep food moving through the system so it doesn’t go stale.
Silly question perhaps, but: why would you need infinite food storage? You need to produce enough anyway to feed the dupes long term? I produce too much, so always have say 50% extra for emergencies and growing pains, but I would not know what to do with more extra food?
A reasonable question. Different people likely want it for different reasons such as: 1. The idea of any food going to waste bugs them 2. Looking at ridiculously high calorie numbers stimulates the release of dopamine in some persons 3. Because they can 4. Infinite storage systems are immune to the problems that arise due to backup and can streamline the whole food making process (my reason) 5. Spoiled food turns to rot which turns to polluted oxygen if not fed to pokeshells or a composter which is another chore eating up duplicant time 6. It's fancy and/or cool 7. It's perhaps the most noob-friendly temperature regulation system in the game and provides good practice for bigger projects
Actually i tried farming not wild wheat once i go horrible (at my first 100 cycle game) i never tried before it. But i never known that berrys sludge never spoil i think i will give them a try
So the make rockets so easy it just silly. Then make food storage a pain in the butt. Why? Was Storing food so broken they had to change it? No. So many head scratching things done in this DLC. Nothing seems thought out. Nothing much fits together. Just change it to change it. With no reason to change it. The whole DLC is a mess. I stopped watching this series because none of it looks fun in any way shape or form. To have to jump through this many hoops just to store food is beyond stupid game design. Then make rockets so easy the other way it's stupid game design. I popped in to see how he'd handle storing food. Doesn't look fun or interesting at all. Isn't that the point of game design. Fun and interesting. At least this saves me money. I won't buy it. I would play it if it was free. It looks so poorly designed.
