Degree a Camshaft Without a Wheel (and advance it a ton while you're there) : Mopar 5.9L Magnum #8 

Ya I don't understand why he didn't just jump the cam gear forward one tooth on the chain

I watched Uncle Tony do it with a feeler gauge and thought his method, while simple, was even more complex than it needed to be. All you need to find the center of overlap are the factory timing marks and a straight edge, and for most street/strip applications that's enough. Sure, if you're building top-fuel dragsters you probably want to invest in a degree wheel, but if you are building one then you don't need me telling you how to set up a cam either. LOL

@@YoshimoshiGarage ok next job is installing a posi in a c1500 1992 love a more simpler way . Thanks .

Should be able to, yes

I suspect they're the same engine. I don't know what this would so to the ECU - probably confuse it. This is going into a 1974 W100 with a carburetor so I didn't have to worry about an ECU in my application.

Sure, and I wouldn't say it's and less correct. You just have to figure out how many degrees one tooth is (360/total teeth)

@@YoshimoshiGarage Awesome, I just put together the rotating assembly and cam for my 5.9 mag and was gonna check the cam degree. its a regrind cam so I'm hoping its a little closer to TDC than yours was. Thanks again! this series has been a big help

@@YoshimoshiGarage 7.8 degrees per tooth

@@aldo6192 Hello. The larger cam sprocket. If it has 46 teeth that's 7.82 degrees per tooth.

I just went out in the garage and measured a magnum and an LA timing cover and they both seem to have the same depth for the timing set. The crank and cam I'm using are both Magnum so I can't see any reason that timing set wouldn't work with a Magnum and a newer cover/serpentine setup.

@@YoshimoshiGarage Thanks, you been a big help!

Yes, there's not a huge amount of force on it, just enough to push the lifters up.

Of the lifters aren't the same height it won't work, no, though I've never seen them vary. This method is not as accurate as a wheel, no. But it's accurate enough for most home garage and street guys and doesn't require a wheel or dial indicator. It's a cheap alternative.

The hyd lifter plunger makes the difference up don't it? What about the body of lifter u are laying straight edge on, have u ever checked machine height, I think this way is great, just asking if there is any big changes in degrees u ever found that would throw reading off real far. Thanks 4 sharing this way of degreeing.

Because you're looking at the overlap when both valves are nearly closed. Total lift is irrelevant

Great question, and all I can do is guess here. All fuel injection uses sensors fed into a computer to determine how much fuel to deliver and when. Newer FI systems are quite complex and likely "know" about the cam profile and timing to be able to best achieve ideal fuel/air mixture. Software changes (i.e. "tuning") can make changes to the desired output of the computer (how rich to make the mixture under specific conditions. Now older FI systems were dumber - the computer just wasn't as good, sensors were less accurate and slower, and the injectors themselves had limitations. I suspect that early FI computers didn't know about the cam curve or timing, they just did a real-time look at a few sensors (O2, TPS, MAP, and MAF) did a calculation of how much fuel is needed for the amount of air coming in, and squirted it. The one question there is that the "when" of the squirt is figured out by two things: a crank trigger (or distributor hall effect sensor) telling it when it's at TDC and, almost certainly, some sort of number in the software that says "squirt X milliseconds after the crank trigger fires." So the FI system would certainly be able to know "how much" fuel regardless of cam-to-crank timing, but I'm not sure it would know the "when to squirt." I also don't know if the difference would be big enough to make much difference. You would think that the factory engineers would have made it ideal to begin with, but they don't - well they try to make it ideal for low emissions, not ideal for maximum power. So if you made this change and kept the FI its near certain that emissions would get worse, but it's very possible that performance would get better, It's also possible that it would get worse. My git says it's like an 80/20 split in probability, so it's more likely to be better, but really it's something that I'd love to ask a camshaft engineer to explain to us. I don't know any, though. So, after all that rambling, if you got this far in my response then congrats, I've probably not helped you at all and maybe just made you more confused. What would *I* do? I'd put on the FI and see how it works, but be prepared to swap to a carb in the event the computer can't figure it out and perf goes to crap.

That timing set has different notches for the crank key that allow you to install it at up to 6 degrees advanced (the notch itself is cut at a position to offset it in relation to the cam gear). So I'm using the built-in notch for 6 degrees there, then I used the offset key in the cam to gain another 4 degrees of advance

You can. Just divide 360 by the number of teeth on the gear you're skipping a tooth with. I think the cam gear gives you 7.5 degrees per tooth, but you'd want to count to be sure.

I'd love to see a dyno on both, too! Way outside my budget, unfortunately.

Yes, this would work with nearly any cam.

@@YoshimoshiGarage thank you for your knowledge and help thank you

@@YoshimoshiGarage just do dot to dot I was able to get the keeper very nice got stuck doing advance timing like that engine very much it's a complete rebuilt 1999 thank you

Yes, it would be the same process

We're simply measuring that both intake and exhaust are open the same amount at TDC. This is called "split overlap." The timing cover already tells us angle so we don't have to use anything else to see where they actually pass. www.iskycams.com/cam-degreeing.html#:~:text=RELATING%20VALVE%20OVERLAP%20TO%20THE,cam's%20base%20circle%20at%20T.D.C.

he could have put the timing cover on, and it still would have been the same.

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There may well be some odd profiles that the rate is asymmetric but the range of overlap is small for most anything but the most radical of cams, assuming symmetric is likely within a half a degree or better. I was surprised the factory service manual didn't have better specs on the cam as well, but that's all they had. Skipping a tooth on a standard timing set probably would have worked to take a large amount of the difference out, but honestly I didn't think of it until after I ordered the set, and I thought showing an offset timing set might be more applicable to a wider range of applications where you don't need such a crazy amount of advance. Many guys swear by a degree wheel, and you can get more info with one, but this method is nice because it can quickly check to see if zero is where you think it actually is without any special tools.

Thanks for your quick reply, Yoshimoshi! Yes, after some searching I see that your split overlap check is legit. TYVM for teaching me this. Uncle Tony agrees at ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-AUJ_4csQuu8.html Fantastic work of yours, I'm a fan. Will check this on the Corvair motor I'm building right now.

You are right, sir! Just checked this today on my Corvair engine: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-pgdJjo5dg8k.html

The keyways in variable timing set are broached at locations that offset the teeth of the crank gear slightly from the cam gear. It changes where the teeth are relative to one another in the same way that the offset key does on the camshaft.

I'm still building it. No real rush since I have to wait for warmer weather to put it in, plus I'll be rebuilding the 727 behind it as well.

on the magnums, the stoc cams arent very high rpm oriented anyway, so might as well improve bottom and mid range.

No. You're measuring the split overlap when the valves are nearly closed. Total lift doesn't matter.

Yes, the balancer mark was within probably 1/2 a degree of the timing cover zero. Even the factory specs on the cam indicate it needs significant adjustment (I didn't even look them up until I saw just how far off this thing was)

How did it run? I don't believe you covered that. I'll be doing this with my magnum 5.2 soon as part of a refresh.

Excellent point.

Not trying to be nit picky. Just didn’t want your viewers to be confused trying to figure out which stroke the piston is on when it doesn’t matter. I just found your channel and subscribed.

Not same duration, just symmetric slopes. If they're not identical, this won't be exact, but the reality is that you're only looking at the small slice of overlap, so even if they aren't symmetric you're still likely to be within a degree

This would work on every camshaft. The duration is irrelevant. You're just looking at the one point of split-overlap which should be at TDC on the exhaust stroke on virtually every 4 stroke engine. A cam is considered advanced or retarded if the point of split-overlap is moved one way or the other from TDC.

I think you'd be surprised just how close you can get things using this method. Notice he's swinging back and forth and watching his piston at TDC and splitting the difference by eye. Remember, you wont know a degree or two either way without a dyno anyway to see exactly which direction would be a little bit more to your liking for street or track use, so anywhere in this ballpark will do. Even if you found true exact TDC you wont know if that's IDEAL placement anyway. All it does within a few degrees is just moves the power up or down the powerband ever so slightly. Is'nt like 2 degrees only moves the power by like 200 rpm or something? You're not even going to notice 2 degrees off one way or the other really, for street cruising, let's be honest so that small fraction you're on about, you're probably talking moving the power by 50 rpm or so anyway. This might matter at the drag strip in major high end tuning where everyone and their brother are looking for any fraction of a sliver or that quarter in blueprinted engines but a guy's engine on the street wont notice anything.

​@@Warrior_Resisting_Colonialism Critic critiqued. 😎👍

It will work on anything that has a symmetric overlap. It's measuring the point where one is closing and the other is opening, so different lift and duration is fine. It starts having error if the *rate* of lift/close (so the slope on the cam) is different. How much error would depend on just how different they are.

@@YoshimoshiGarage thanks for your reply. I’m struggling to figure out an issue I’m having with extremely low idle vacuum and I keep coming back to cam timing as the possible cause. But I didn’t build my engine and I have no idea what the cam specs are. Your video has been the best advise I can find.

Low vacuum at idle means that, for some reason, when the piston is moving down, air is getting pulled in from somewhere other than the intake. I assume you've done the usual looking for leaks. If there are none, then it has to be at the valve. Obvious worst case would be a burnt valve, but I also assume you've got good compression. So that leaves "the exhaust valve must be still open for part of the travel of the piston" so your theory on possible timing problems is solid. Does the distributor have vacuum advance? Is it hooked to manifold or ported vacuum (should be manifold)? Higher lift cams often have longer duration, and long duration cams tend to have a longer overlap. That overlap is when both valve are open. If you advance the cam, that overlap happens sooner, meaning more of the overlap will be in the exhaust stroke, and less in the intake, which usually increases vacuum (and *importantly* decreases valve/piston clearance!)

@@YoshimoshiGarage havnt had the vehicle very long but the amount of incorrect under the bonnet makes me worry. Piston to valve clearance is my biggest concern also. I havnt done a compression test yet but no obvious signs of ring wear, no blue smoke and the plugs read good. It pulls hard between 3000rpm and 6000. I’ve checked for vacuum leaks every which way. Disconnected ALL lines and sprayed flammable material all over the intake and carb while running with no change in idle speed. So as far as I can tell no external vacuum leaks. Other than maybe an internal/ valley side intake leak but can’t really check that. My next step is compression check, then remove intake and check gasket for leaks. It’ll that’s all good it would have to be valve related. Here’s fingers crossed it’s not a burnt valve lol. I think if it was it would need to be multiple because my vacuum is 6-8in at 1000rpm with 20deg ignition timing. At 3000rpm 20-21in. My distributor is a progression ignition unit, good bit of kit I have to say.

@@YoshimoshiGarage just in case anyone was chasing similar issues I’ve got an update. My engine has a solid roller cam so I was able to back off lash from 16/18thou to 22/24thou. Picked up considerable idle vacuum. Now sits at 10in at 800rpm. I also increase idle timing to 22deg and it seems to like it. I’d say my cam is just rather rad haha

That's a photo right from the factory service manual for a late 90's dodge truck.

A great question. This method does reply on them all being the same length. I've found them to be accurate enough over the decades for this to work, and I just checked several spares that I had from another 360 magnum and they are all within 0.001"

It's fairly simple. There's a point between the exhaust stroke and the intake stroke when both valves are slightly open. This happens on all 4-stroke engines, from lawn mowers to cars. Right before the exhaust fully closes and as the intake is opening. This method has them passing right at TDC, which is where it should happen for nearly any cam regardless of lift or duration. It's called split overlap.

Does this coincide with the cam settings recommended by the cam manufacturer for the the intake lobe ie 106 degrees?

This is a factory cam, so you can only guess at the recommendations, but it doesn't really matter. Generally speaking camshafts perform best when the overlap is equally split. In some cases (I'd say likely never for street use) you might want it to be a degree or two advanced. But retarded 10+ degrees like these appear to be can only be some effort to reduce emissions. It was so far off that I had to measure it several times and even then I didn't really believe it until I got confirmation from an engineer at Kelford Cams that yes, I needed to advance it probably 10-12 degrees.

There's some good information from Isky here - probably more than most people really need - but the last 2 sentences on the page basically summarize the same. Split overlap is likely the best for most applications, and the technique I use gets you there with nothing but a straight edge. www.iskycams.com/cam-degreeing.html

Very interesting. Next time I set one up I’ll try it both ways and see how it turns out. Thanks for the info.

With as far off as this is, one tooth on the cam gear might work. Count the teeth and divide 360 by that number to get the degrees per tooth.

Well, since I verified it with an actual cam manufacturer and their engineer came up with the same number I did just based on the cam card, yes, I do believe it is factory ground that way.

He put factory timing chain back on and came up with same thing, so he was right !

@@jeremyking5684 Jeremy, swapping the timing chain wouldn't make any difference if the "0" mark on the crankshaft gear located near the slot or anywhere else other than near the tooth was used. The "0" mark next to the crank gear TOOTH is what needs to be used.

You can't find the center of TDC easily with a dial indicator because the piston dwells at TDC for many degrees of crankshaft rotation as the crank pin "rolls over" before it begins to change the direction of piston travel, the dial will essentially stay still for many degrees of crank rotation while the piston dwells at the top of it's stroke before changing direction. You have to find the center of TDC, just because the piston is all the way up, doesn't mean it's in the center (of degrees of crank rotation) The piston stop, averaging method, is the preferred way to find true TDC. Additionally, unlike ignition timing, cam timing is ALWAYS done in reference to the exhaust stroke, (not the compression stroke) because that is where "split-overlap" occurs.

I didn't make one - I only thought I did but it turned out that it really was that far retarded, so I had to advance it a huge amount.

A new cam is $400, which is a lot more than a timing set which I planned to replace anyway. This is just a daily driver engine for an old truck.

@@YoshimoshiGarage i don't think you added in the cost of your time and all involved in your emails and calls i bet. i mean i think what you did was ingenious but if you are keeping the stock cam you are not gonna gain any hp. you are still going to have the same cam profile. stock cams are junk you can add the best aluminum heads money can buy and if you keep the same cam you will only get a minimal gain cause even if you upgrade everything else the cam will not be able to take advantage of any upgrades.unless your building a stock to factory spec for a restoration i don't see the point of using the stock cam. seems like a waste of energy don't

@@triggerhappycustoms8960 Oh I bet he will indeed pick up some ponies from advancing the cam that far, probably some mpg's too because it won't have to work as hard (less accelerator pedal for a given amount of torque)

the info he shared is invaluable imo

I'll let Summit know.

@@YoshimoshiGarage I wrote the comment before I see the new timing set. Sorry. Lol.

Have you priced out a Magnum cam and lifter kit lately?

@@YoshimoshiGarage Buy a summit cam and lifter kit .."mopar" brand name means someone else made it and mopar simply tripled the price .. chances are you can get a melling cam for less and they also make oem cams . mopar performance is where you pay 5 times the price for only half the performance .

Besides if you have a "roller" cam you do not need to buy new lifters just a cam .. the whole selling point of roller lifters is less friction less wear and more aggressive cam profiles and lift that is street able. only people that are not aware replace the roller lifters.

Totally! No one calls the power plant in a car a "motor!" Next he'll call it a "gas tank" when it clearly holds liquid! Kudos on your mastery of English!