Destiny 2 Lore -The Implications of Transcendence for The Final Shape & The Universe of Destiny! 

I remember that some time ago, you theorized that the Final Shape would be us, the Guardians, wielding both Light and Dark, overcoming the logic of our current universe. If you are right, then past Byf is vindicated once more.

Love the way you've been reading dialogue in loretexts, Byf. There's a lot more emotion and intent behind it, which really fits the characters saying it.

I am here once again to express my appreciation for the beautiful Byf.

the rainbow subclass is gonna go crazy

I feel like the Final Shape can only be properly realized, so long as there's only one individual that is unchallenged in its interpretation of how the universe should be. It would explain why the Darkness/Winnower is obsessed with it because it's the catalyst for and is the reward for ultimate competition, shaping reality as you think it should be. It would also be why the Traveler/ Gardener never wished to make it for itself, or even directly speaks for that matter, because it desires complex life with their own perspectives, generating complexity. The Final Shape (as it was, at least) is incompatible with its goals at a fundamental level, and so doesn't desire perfection. In many ways, then, Transcendance really is the Gardener's best argument against the Final Shape, and it seems fitting it would condone and encourage the Darkness to be used alongside Light.

If you remember from the final Parting the Veil quest, Nimbus and Osiris theorized that at one point the Traveler and the Veil and subsequently the Light and Darkness at one point, were actually one and the same, one singular power. Transcendence could be that very power.

A guardian using darkness for life and complexity is exactly that- a defiance of the pattern, of stagnation, of a predetermined end.

The concept of Light and Dark in Destiny will always be the coolest thing in media for me

Pink is an S-tier color and I like that we got a pink subclass instead of the red one. Change my mind

The Warlock pose always makes me think, "You fool, Thunder Cross Split attack"!

The Gardner to the Guardians (those dead in the Traveler/afterlife, and alive): “There must be meaning in our roar. A transcendence of light and dark. This, is our destiny”.

The bit in The First Knife where the winnower was angry...you ever considered voice acting? Because damn

I love when I can actually watch as soon as the notification comes through

This. This is THE Byf lore video. This is the one. That's it. I agree with absolutely everything here. And I've ALWAYS took a more literal approach to Unveiling. That the Gardener and the Winnower were actual beings. And hearing the Gardener's voice in the new trailer just proved for me what I've been saying for YEARS at this point.

Transcendance sounds and looks cool but my need for symmetry wishes there was a third Darkness subclass before this fusion was introduced. Like, it low key annoys me that there are not an equal number of Light and Darkness subclasses. ...this may be the start of my villain arc.

The thing to remember is that the Gardener as an entity has existed since Destiny 1 Grimoire cards, it predates Unveiling in terms of our readings.

“The First Knife” would be an EPIC raid sword drop!

14:28 This is like the force in Star Wars, people who purely watch the movies think using the dark side automatically make you a sith, and light a jedi. Sith is purely an ideology, just like being a jedi is. You can use either aspects of the force without ever being aligned to either ideology. It's just that being a part of either order helps you gain more knowledge. So if you're primarily light side user or even a jedi and use something like force lightning and you're still beholden to your principles, it doesn't automatically make you bad unless you want to be. As byf said, they're simple a creature using one kind of energy.

You could say that the final shap for bomb logic is the final shape that will never come to pass... For we must always change, always adapt, and always be open for more growth.

The way byf read that “the first knife” passage was something else. I felt it in my bones.

There better be an Exotic Glaive named First Knife that you get from the Raid.

Been seeing fanart of stuff similar to transcendence for years. Glad its finally a thing.

Man, the Winnower got mad that it wasn't allowed to win all the time.

Bro will never fall off

If the witnesses final shape is the triangle, then the Traveller's is the destiny tricorn. The title screen symbol thats been with us since the very beginning. Its rounded like a sphere, but angled like an upside down triangle. It is representative of an inversed hierarchy. Implying a reversal of the Witnesses ideals. Its white too, signifying that it is indeed the traveller's final shape and it furthermore reflects infinite complexity given its rounded nature. I have also seen some on reddit note that previously the symbol represented the consensus between the speaker, the factions, and vanguard with the Traveller in the middle. This would line up squarely with the issue facing the Witness currently. Namely that despite pursuing the Traveller for aeons, the precursors had not achieved full consensus before being merged into one singular being. In other words, the witness has yet to achieve a concensus whilst the Traveller has. The Travellers final shape is a fidget spinner.

When Byf discussed the perception of the final shape from the travellers point of view, that is something I have not heard from anyone else.

So glad to hear you have some spark back in your voice and be excited about destiny again.

Been hooked on the content lately, keep it up man

I like that idea that Nezarac was sooooo close, when you look at the designs for his Wipe VFX it literally looks like he’s trying too fuse/use light and dark all at once but since he doesn’t have true Prismatic Transcendence he can only try, but with us in the Final Shape we are able too mix them perfectly! It’s almost like mixing Carbonated Water and Soda Syrup (weird way too go but it’s how I envision it) if you have too much of one or the other it’s just wrong, but…..when you have the perfect mixture….it hits just right! Maybe just maybe this is what the Traveler ment for the guardians/ghosts all this time too act as a “Prism” in which too focus not just the light but also the dark too finally defeat the Witness. (Reason why we didn’t have darkness from the start is obvious in a few ways)

Transcendence perhaps lends into the core meaning of this entire game, Destiny. Guardians make their own fate and with Prismatic we now wield both Light and Dark together and thus we shape Destiny.

Game theory collab when? I wanna see 2 british people talk about how Taniks is actually Spamton G. Spamton.

chills Byf your lore videos always give me chills

Legit brought this up on my podcast reacting to TFS gameplay showcase. Love when we line up in those rare times Byf!! Our final shape (us) versus the witness’s calcification of the universe! Ideology v ideology! The best kind of RPG ending! !!

Literally agree with everything you said within closing to this video it certainly makes complete sense and i feel this has to be the answers we are all wanting thank you for all your hard work and appreciate all you do.

This reminds of Kingdom Hearts 3. The chess game between the two kids at the beginning, about there always being the same outcome. Until light or dark chose to change what they were for. The game went on until dark had almost snuffed out all light, then the agents of light rose up, more powerful than before (transcendence). Always a good story troupe.

Absolutely criminal byf has only got a mil subs now very few youtubers put as much work and effort into the quality of their videos... either way congrats

I also love how the sword logic vs bomb logic analogy also applies to a lot of the gameplay design. We've long since moved away from passive perks and subclass trees, and into complex buildcrafting and perk combos that chain into weapon rotations.

Man watching this and thinking back to playing VoG in D1, first time fighting Atheon and seeing the message Guardians make their own fate is something else. Never would have thought id spend the next 10 years with this story and it finally coming to a head.

Yesssss this is exactly what came to mind seeing the Prismatic subclass, especially within the traveller. We are going to become some aspect of the Final Shape, or an answer to it. What I'm really excited about seeing though is if that surprises the Witness at all, or if we're somehow part of their plan as well. I have a running theory that the Witness' goal is to become the Winnower's Final Shape, and we'll be the Gardener's, and it's possible there's either a precursor or some other kind of being inside the Traveller that's going to be making us their champion. Once we win, because of course we will, it might happen to herald some new form of Golden Age.

I love the part around16:00 but especially at like 16:35 when you make the perfect call back to Vog with the "make our own fate" line

O mighty Byf, Oracle, Seer, Keeper of Knowledge, Kell of Logs. I had a crazy thought about Cayde in Final Shape and thought the Traveller has "resurrected" him as its new Speaker, acting as an intermediary with us. Or am I just medicating too much.

Congrats on 1 mil btw

Pretty clear to me though the designs that the veil is the winnower and the traveler is the gardener. They are made to connect to each other.

Great stuff! Love the videos Huge issue with the theroy of transcendence being the power that overcomes the Final shape. I didn't see the option to choose Well of Radiance as a super...

Bomb logic and transcendence was what I was thinking since you had been speaking of Sword Logic

This is the transcendence video I’ve been waiting for

This video rocked. Well done Byf. I always thought the witness’ phrase “you have no purpose” was interesting. Makes even more sense now.

The one thing that stands out to me is Eido’s conclusion on The Witness and its goal: how it needs the light to actualize its universal ideas. We now have both abilities and powers now.

Great thoughts and videos. There’s a lot to think about in this.

I totally agree with your point of view,especially since it match how the final shape was marketed and how something New will start,outside of the obvious marketing talk,it make sense to end a light and dark saga and start a New one knowing we avoided the planned end due to our difference and capacity to wield dark and light

so how im thinking of it. this always bring me back to the statues. the darkness statues. a woman covered by a "veil" hiding the truth. i think the womans voice is the gardener but the gardener is actually inside the traveller. Brings back to what the witness said during the invention of the portal

Gardeners were first mentioned in the grimoire card for the black garden but the light and darkness sagas are pretty full explained in lore cards for Lumina Mk. 44 Stand-Asides T = 0 The Cambrian Explosion

holy f**k byf, the voice acting on this one is stellar, truly

thank you for addressing the Voice! I was trying to figure out who it was when watching the stream, but then immediately got distracted by everything, & forgot about it. very interesting, to say the least... 🤔

great video! thanks for this!

Our lore daddy with another great video

A transcription in game “ Pilgrimage: Garden of Esila, Dead Tree” mentions two gardeners. A female gardener who loses to the winnower, the gardener from the first knife group of lore, and the traveler. The traveler speaks of itself as a gardener and the last of his kind in the grimoire “ghost fragment: Mysteries”

I have finally finished the chronological playlist!!!

Voice acting Byf 🥳 great video!

This is going to be a big one! I have so many questions I hope get answered 😊

Maybe the real finals shape was the friends we met along the way (quite literally). No seriously, this is actually likely to be how the light and darkness saga ends, and it makes sense with the lore. The traveler is literally said to be complexity personified as it's a sphere. The traveler's bomb logic is stated to be all acting as one, individual, independent and likely unknown to one another components triggering a mutually beneficial effect for all. Given the darkness runs on emotions, it's entirely possible for the red subclass to be The Power of Friendship as an element.

Byf can you talk about possibly seeing the gardener or the winnoner in the final shape? I would like to see your take on that

Love it. I think we’ve known the gardener/traveler’s “final shape” all along. From d1 we know that in opposition to the sword logic (which has really been evolved/retconned and co-opted from the hive’s philosophy to that of the Witness) that the traveler bets that when given control over physics (read: paracausality as a combined fundamental force as theorized by Osiris in the Veil missions) that its chosen will create a gentle place ringed in spears. The gardener’s chosen will use the extra power it and the winnower created when they joined the game (paracausality) to protect a place of life and complexity, even as the philosophy of the winnower exists in the universe in the form of the Witness also trying to master the full spectrum of paracausality to instead end/finalize reality. Transcendence and the ability to use light and dark to become “the light of hope” aligns perfectly with the original “bet” of the traveler from d1, and it’s really kind of a beautiful full circle moment. I think they just might pull off an incredible narrative conclusion to this 10 year epic, it seems like they’re definitely going to nail it from a gameplay perspective. Exciting times for sure, I’m excited to listen to you and the lore community as it unfolds.

My favorite disciple of The Witness so far has to be Calus. He doesn’t know what the Final Shape is and he doesn’t care. He knows that whatever else is is meant to be it’s functionally the end of the universe as we know it and all he wants is to exist and experience as much of that ending as he possibly can. Almost like the Cenobites from Hellraiser, he just craves experience.

Epic reading of unveiling! The voice in trailer could just be Ikora through a radio though - sounds similar enough to me

Final shape drip color pallet looks like it’s gonna be immaculate, you already know the shaders are about to go mf CRAZY.

Love seeing Byf's Big Bonk Build. Amuses me to no end. And great video, man. I've been thinking back to Unveiling a lot since Into the Light dropped, and we heard that voice in the cutscene. I thought it was a distorted Ikora Rey, at first. Now, I'm not so sure. I reckon they're gonna bring back in the woman with the veiled face as the Gardener, or some cosmic force above the Traveler. Guardians make their own fate. And I don't think that's gonna stop because of the Witness. I do believe the Traveler's conception of the final shape to be something where power comes from complexity, not simply from strength; and that protecting those who can't protect themselves is the ultimate power.

The destiny app icon looks so good now

Prismatic might be the reason stasis and strand were put in the kinetic slots so we could use a light and a dark weapon at the same time for builds

When I think of light vs. dark or complexity vs. perfection (which seems to be what Destiny speaks of), an alternate version of this conflict in the real world that is much more ancient is words vs. silence, or female vs. male. I don't play Destiny anymore, but I find its greater themes in the story line to be incredibly deep and fascinating. Your videos are a story by themselves, Byf. Keep up the great work. ❤️

i loved when the Traveler got up and said "This is my Final Shape" and then shaped all over the place

Would be nice to get prismatic and unlock our final darkness subclass through it via fragment unlocks slowly over time. I still think Resonance should be the 3rd darkness subclass.

In my case, I like to think that the Gardener's Final Shape is the simple act of protecting today so tomorrow can come. There is no need for purpose or meaning. All that matters is life can exist again today, and they can experience more tomorrows. It's ironic cause this is where I somewhat agree with Savathun. I can't remember which lorebook it was from, but didn't Savathun questioned why she's following the Sword Logic before? She said that what she wants is to see more of the universe. To roam its vastness, and yet she's following a logic that destroys everything. I think that's exactly what the Gardener wish to protect. That chance to see and experience more things. There's no need for purpose nor meaning in such a world-for to have a purpose is to be tied to it-and the Traveler promised freedom. To put it into perspective, it's like hoping for the next Destiny 2 expansion to come. You hope that today will be safe and tomorrow will come, so you can experience the next expansion for a game you like to play.

Content: *exists* Byf: "MORE VIDEOS! MORE MORE MORE" 😂

Bungie should give you a character that's voiced by you. Something fitting for you and what your channel is all about.

I think your theory is spot on. Would be interesting to hear other perspectives.

I've always intended to be on the side of the gardener, I'm also trying to cause a perfect Paradox to where the witness is trapped in the vex network it is also what would explain why we've seen what we've seen in the vex Network.

The horseshoe crab is my final shape

I want to say that voice is Ikora, strained and through coms. She's said the line before: "Be brave in dark places."

I just remembered, the flower game lore might be directly referenced by the Witness in the witch queen ending cutscene! "Enough. Enough death. Enough life. You have no pieces left to place. The GAME is over" Not sure what this entails, but it's an interesting connection I realized. Perhaps this is what truly proves that the winnower and gardener are real? I mean, the identity of the character voiced in TFS trailer is debatable, but I think this is what the gardener is, and the Witness, the Winnower.

The cut scene that showed the history of The Witness changed how I thought about the Unveiling lore book. When the Witness' people find the Traveler buried on their planet, it put things in a whole new context. Now I consider Unveiling to be closer to folk lore of the Witness' people. A way for them to explain something for which they have a very limited understanding. Even though the Witness knows about the functionality of the Traveler and the Veil, both of those cosmic entities predate the Witness. Thus we get a vague and whimsical story about a gardener and a winnower rather than a detailed history.

"Are you ready for your paracasuality lessons?" Pujari gulped Osiris blinked nervously Toland sighed Aunor shuddered "Yes Ulan-Tan." They said in unison.

I’m sure they do and we just didn’t see them, but I hope the Prismatic classes have names like our other subclasses. Battlemaster immediately came to me for Titan.

The new skittles class is gonna be fun 😂

The Gardener was mentioned in D1 lore about the black garden.

Every time something with their idea of the Final Shape arrived, we would always play a part in their end, we are proving the Gardener's point, we are providing a way beyond the end of all things. A way past the Final Shape. This is why the Traveler came to be, so the Gardener could gift something the power to fight back the Final Shape.

Howdy, so I have a thought on this subject. As you said, unveiling is unreliable. But taking a moment to read into it, I think it implies something interesting. The gardener states that they want for there to be a new rule to promote complexity, to reward those who choose to build and create more complex patterns. They also state that a rule like this must be implemented in parallel to the other rules, so as to not have them interfere with each other. And the gardener also says that it will make itself into this rule of the universe. This makes me think, first, that the traveler is the gardener's implementation of this rule, being that it repeated uplifted civilizations, rewarding them for building and creating complexity. Second, it makes me wonder if the veil represents the original rules of the game. It represents fundamental aspects of the universe, unless I am mistaken. And this could be cause for the traveler fleeing from the veil. The rule that the traveler represents cannot be linked to the veil without ruining the game that the gardener wants. It must exist separately for it to be carried out properly. I also see this dichotomy in the way that the light and dark elements work. Light seems to be of the physical, allowing for the breaking of the conventional laws of physics. Whereas the dark is about control and collective consciousness, end goals for the traditional final shape that the gardener grew bored of. That's about where I'm gonna stop my thoughts. I may think more on this when I'm not burnt out from work. I think it's interesting if nothing else. Also, and I have to say this every time I comment, thank you, Byf, for continuing to be my inspiration for getting excited about lore and world building. Keep up the great work.

I feel like there is a reason why transcendence will only give us a new grenade(bomb logic), it is because the Gardener is blessing us to achieve that, maybe once the Winnower does that too we will unlock a new mele(sword logic).

Remembering the dialogue from Calus in the Duality dungeon. "I understand now what true paracausality is. The Light and the Dark are threads on a loom, woven into the tapestry of the universe by those who wield it. The Witness would see things differently, the gaps between those threads. Freedom from the greater design. Freedom... for all." I wonder how much of that is true. Think also of Nokris in the Season of Arrivals: "The Sky is vast, but shallow. The Deep is boundless, but suffocating. There is another way." Might the Final Shape, and the future of Destiny, be powers beyond the Light and Dark?

Pretty interesting to be dual-wielding two different Darkness subclasses.

I wonder if Conditional Finality was the teaser to what is to come in the final shape. An ending that is conditioned by us which is the fusion of both dark and loght. Just like the exoctic shotgun combining both stasis and solar.

So if I'm getting this right, the traveler is the Gardener manifested as the rule that it wanted to create to add chaos to the game (existence) so it doesn't always have the same outcome. The witness has said that while the traveler brings life, it also brings chaos, and that's why he hates it as the witness is presumably the Winnower manifested to see that the final shape comes about despite the rule implemented by the Gardener.

YOOO BYF AS THE VOICE FOR THE WINNOWER WOULD BE DO FIRE

Please! I really hope they implement one last subclass of darkness. One power that we create through the darkness shaped by pain, rage and sadness. I think we are gonna lose a lot of people in the Final Shape and from those loses, we will drift further in wanting and gaining power. Which we will cleave and take and shape it into our own nightmares against our foes. One last subclass to balance it all. And if you think about it, having 7 subclasses would also represent the 7 Chakra points in human nature, and to understand each Chakra is to find true balance within ourselves.

I find it interesting that if the guardians are technically on the Gardener's side, an important job of guardian's seems to be performing the work of the Winower. 🤔

The combination and usage of both light and dark go beyond what’s detailed in unveiling, as the speakers only speak from the usage of their own respective powers to shape the universe. There very well may be a final shape for light as there is for dark but with the combination of them both into a single being or species, you subvert both of them. You essentially become both the Gardner and winnower in one and are able to dictate the flow of the universe forever with both growth and death as you see fit.

Light 3 Dark 2 Light & Dark 1 We been counting down

Great video

I think that mysterious voice may be The Traveler, though we won’t know for sure until we actually encounter whatever is speaking. I’m pretty sure that the Traveler IS the Gardener. The Witness isn’t the Winnower, at least not yet. I think the Witness’s goal is essentially to become the Winnower; able to shape “the garden” and bring about the final pattern.

I am wondering if the Unveiling Lore book did happen at least in some form where the Gardner (what would become the Traveller) and Veil (The True Winnower). Did exist in some higher dimension and as some creational forces, but to become one with the game itself they lowered themselves into beings that could exist physically inside the simulation. I have been thinking that maybe the new rule added to the game was introducing "Paracausality" into the worlds themselves. It could make sense that in a perfect simulation that was created by the Winnower and the Gardener, without some way of overruling basic statistics eventually you would endup with a output inline with gaussian statistics (The Final Shape). Where if large amounts of pseudo random events occur in simulation the average of the simulation would be predictable acrosss all simulations. By adding in Paracausality as the new rule proposed by the Gardener, that would allow species that definitely shouldn't to flourish. This also alligns with the idea that the Gardener and Winnower would have to become one with the rules themselves as the True sources of Paracausality and therefore go from observers of the game to the players. I don't think merging the Veil and Traveller is what causes the Final Shape (if Paracausality is the additional rule). My guess is that its a byproduct of the new rule because we now have incarnations of the creators themselves merging the two powers lets you "Trancend" the Rules of the simulation. In our case it will be like we can trigger parcausal effects with the wrong element like triggering Gunpower Gamble With Stasis Shurikens, and truly blur the line between light and dark. The Witness wants to use the power to either expedite The Final Shape and/or destroy this simulation and go back to the ones pre the rules change (kinda like Thanos with the with the snap) I am wondering if the first knife refers to the Penitent themselves, the first species that the Traveller has visited. And by showing them the reality of the Gardener's chaos would be enough to make them abandon the Gardner. This puts the Gardener on the back foot and causes the cyclic notion of: Find Gardener, Golden Age, Black Fleet, Collapse, Gardner Run Away.