Destiny 2 Lore - The Sword Logic & whether we empower it in the Crucible? Also Immaru talks to Shaxx 

Head to keeps.com/byf to get a special offer for hair loss treatment.

Immaru: “Don’t be suspicious. Don’t be suspicious…”

And now I have the image in my head of a hive guardian watching a crucible match and equating a post-kill emote to that invocation from the hexed shell lore tab.

You forget that the Crucible was founded to CONTAIN the violence of Guardians, AND to distract them from ambitions to be a Warlord. That it also trains new lights in what it means to be a Guardian is an added plus. It is also true that a Guardian can and does increase both their power and understanding of their power in partaking of the Crucible.

Immaru in the monocle sunglass shell is basically "How do you do, fellow Tower Ghosts?"

Immaru: “No one will suspect the sunglasses-wearing, floating trench coat and fedora”! Shaxx: “I know it’s you, and you and your Lucent Hive wouldn’t last a second in the Crucible. Your entire brood would be slaughtered in a few matches”.

Shaxx teaches is bomb logic, that we are strongest when we work together and refuse to back down even an inch.

Immaru's hijinks in the Tales of the Forgotten this Festival of the Lost is another fun read. To see his reaction to how we celebrate a holiday. Makes it worth playing the Haunted Sectors. 🤣

I’ll admit, we may have, for a long time, been unknowingly enacting the Sword Logic. But, recently, since aiding the Reef in the Taken War, we have been enacting the Bomb Logic: defeating foes by working alongside common allies, making a greater whole than the sum of its parts. The Coalition is all of us working together, as we are stronger united than apart and divided. None of us could have faced the threats we have the last ten years, alone. This is most evident in the constant seen in the Dark Future timelines: Elsie witnesses humanity and the City fall, due to us taking on the Taken, Black Garden, and other threats, alone. We, humanity, the Cuty, and the Guardians could not have defeated the Black Heart, Oryx, Ghaul, and other threats, alone. The Bomb Logic, though theorized by the Nine and Mara, just so happens to involve defeating threats that would not join us. A sword can be strong, but there is more versatility when paired with a shield, and greater, when a bomb can be stronger than any blade. It’s hard to say if Savathun will be able to put her ego aside and join the Coalition, embracing the bomb Logic, but we may have to end her later. Much later. There are still yet, many stories to tell with the Witch Queen.

It’s pretty cool the hive guardians say that mantra after killing each other. It’s like they’re doing penance. They know that the light is, in some hive’s opinion, contra to the sword logic. So they’re reaffirming that they still believe in the hive way of life, despite being guardians now.

I actually think Immaru missed the point Shaxx was trying to make in thinking the Guardians would eventually "come around" to the Sword Logic, and I do agree that intention makes a huge distinction between the Sword Logic and Crucible. Part of that intention is the presumption of life's inherent value. The thing about the Sword Logic demanding that life needs to prove its worthiness to exist comes with the presumption that life is inherently unworthy to exist unless it proves itself, hence why those that fail to prove their worthiness must die according to the Hive. But the Crucible was built as a sport with the understanding that all competitors involved are equally worthy of taking the stage, and will be equally worthy when the dust settles, hence why the virtues of the Crucible involve honor, fair play and strengthening each other instead of advancing individual survival at the expense of others. While the Sword Logic only values life that proves its worthiness, the Crucible values all life, and all Guardians are equally worthy to participate in the sport regardless of skill, and the sport serves to rally the community. It is this same spirit that underscores the Olympics and other international competitions, while the only game that the Hive would ever consider playing would be a battle royale, and participation is considered mandatory to prove one's worth. It's cute that Immaru put on a blatantly terrible disguise to walk among humanity, but I find it more funny just how little Immaru understood what Shaxx was really saying and how humanity's Crucible is starkly different from the Hive's Sword Logic. It makes me think that Immaru only sees what he wants to see, and these gaps in understanding will ultimately lead to him deceiving himself as to the way things really are.

Update to Immaru's horrible disguise: Ikora found out and she took the Shaded Shell from Immaru AND placed a Hidden agent outside of the room he's in to make sure he never leaves unauthorized again. He still ended up escaping the room again from hacking a sweeper bot and making it bring him a Constricting Shell instead, so if you need to know why he's part of FOTL that's why. Btw that's all in some of the chapters from the FOTL lore book for this year. It's actually pretty amusing to see him talk to other Ghosts.

Craziest thing about immaru's infiltration plan is just how well it could work

Pretty sure actual Sword Logic requires rituals and connection to Hive or Worm Gods. Otherwise I'm guessing many a species would have happened upon it long ago. It seems to be a special trait related to the Worm Gods and their dedication to the Darkness. That Wizard/Knight fight in the lore always felt mostly like Savathun's way gradually weaning the Lucient Brood off of Sword Logic. That does remind me of Scorn seemingly evolving to have their own version of Crucible in the Ascendant Realm during Season the of the Lost.

Byf, we already have an instance where a Guardian’s intentions grew their status in the Sword Logic. TOLAND. He died with the knowledge of/inclination to the Sword Logic and the yearning to see the Hive’s Deathsong. As we learned from out Strand escapades, all you need is the right mindset.

"How did you get past security?!" "I pretended I was a bar of soap." (quote from dr. Eggman)

my take on the guardians and the sword logic is that, when one intentionally kills another being of equal or greater might than their own then the killers power increases unilaterally, but only if done with the intention of killing. Because if just by slaying a powerful being you gained power without any real input, our guardian would be the singular most powerful being in existence by now, and as we saw with Eris she didn't automatically gain power from us killing things, we needed to intentionally tithe that power to her so in conclusion the sword logic and hive magic are completely separate things, the hive just use it to power their magic's as in the sword logic is a belief/idea. Which brings me to my new theory that the sword logic was born of the precursor civilisation where the witness came from. Afterall they had complete mastery over the darkness and its power over the mind and consciousness so I don't think it would be too big of a stretch to say they used the power of thought/intent the darkness has, to make it a binding logic that could be literally anything. That the witness just used to create the sword logic the hive believe in, so that when you think/believe you gain power by right of conquest therefore you shall. So long story short, the sword logic is a form of belief/intent, not a tangible object or power.

My take is that we both do and do not participate in the sword logic. We participate in the core chain of events of the sword logic (if X is killed by Y then Y is stronger than X) but we don’t participate in its philosophy and thus we cannot take full advantage of that power

Hive guardians participating in the crucible or gambit would be awesome. Imagine sending Hive guardians to the other side with the old Taken ultra blockers!

[Broadswords have always had two honed edges. The katana, however, cuts with only one.] ]]]Edge of Intent, Edge of Action, Edge of Concurrence[[[

Also, Glint is known to have explicitly changed his shell back when he was still Pulled Pork.

I think if you look at it, Dredgen Yor once ruled the Crucible right before he started killing guardians for good, if you remember the books of unmaking her his writings the Shadows of yor translated. He talks about his change, his points of view and his transformations of letting the bone take hold…….. as a champion of the crucible i wonder if he began to have this changing point of view as he became Yor more and more.

It's actually hilarious that he just swapped to one of the summer shades shells. The only thing different other than the shell is the core-eye, which can't exactly be swapped out.

You kinda forgot, we *do* need the help of a worm to tap into the sword logic though. We needed to use the staff, which used a worm, in order to tithe. At the beginning of the season we were told that it was crucial to the process. In order to gain power through the sword logic we needed the worm to tithe, and Eris needed a connection to Ahsa in order to properly take in those tithes. Intent isnt enough, that deeper connection to The Deep is needed, too.

Love you Byf❤️

Ghosts switching shells is mentioned in The culling chapter of the Nothing Ends lore book, Callem's Ghost changes shells so they can fool everyone

You just described what happened to Dredgen Yor. That shift in intention was indeed all it took.

Fun fact in the new festival of the lost lor, caydes chicken colonel, attackes, kidnaps, and traumatised him

Crazy to me that byf made this video because literally the other day I tried looking up an explanation to this. You a real one byf ✊

In the new lore for festival of the lost eris takes his disguise and he has to get a new one and it’s more of immaru outside in the last city

From some of the dialogue in the Haunted Sectors indicate that Immaru actually likes watching Crucible matches.

Ah, Byford and Martin, always a good time. Also been waiting for this video ever since I read the lore book, very fun little entry.

Do you think the "Wish" card from the deck of whispers is talking about the 15th wish in the Last Wish Raid. The 15th wish is called, "This one you shall cherish". What a long con this one must be if they are connected.

A thought occurred to me, and maybe this has been answered somewhere. When a ghost initially resurrects a hive, they also resurrect the worm inside? Does that make the worm a light worm?

Final Shape= Clarity= EGG SWORD LOGIC IS FOR BUMS RING OF SPEARS GANG WYA I LOVE THE LIGHT

Did you read the loretab for the Acosmic GL yet? It looks like Sloane did spot Immaru floating about duringthe Festival of the Lost - right before she meets Aisha and Shayura for a bowl of noodles.

I would love to see or rather hear you summarise and explain everything from the festival of the lost, with Immaru taking part and talking in the haunted sectors to us and all those lore pages we unlock in the event.

“It’s about uniting the city” Shaxx have you ever been on r/destiny. That’s not happening here hun

I'd say that Immaru is close, but he should be talking to Saladin about guardians who are close to embracing Sword Logic. Shaxx's crucible is a place to settle differences, and to make each other harder. Saladin's Iron Banner on the other hand? His philosophy is iron sharpening iron. His commentary is much more about proving yourself supreme over your opponents than having fun and having a way to practice with our powers. Shaxx's reaction to seeing Stasis for the first time is a prime example of how lighthearted and fun the crucible is meant to be. I'd love Immaru's take on Trials to be honest. The stories he could share with the Lucent Hive about what Guardians really get up to when they get truly competitive...

I know we're talking about the Sword Logic and Shaxx and stuff like that, but Immaru in a disguise like that reminds me of Superman and Clark Kent. Everytime Clark puts on the glasses people think he's Clark Kent, even though him and Superman are the same person. It's funny to me .

This one is up there with the “The helmet stayed on” lore haha

Even worse than a hive ghost freely scouting would be a hive lightbearer being destroyed, then their ghost floating over the walls and just resurrecting them within the walls to cause hayhem.

I think that it does draw upon the sword logic in some way, in an equal way it also draws upon something in the light. A harmonious two-tone note after all

Trying to differentiate the sword logic from the Crucible is an interesting thought exercise. I think we can agree that the Crucible is different because it is something done not only to increase an individual Guardian's power, but also to hone the skills of their peers, thus enabling all involved to defend the Last City and humanity more effectively. Yes, it has a selfish component--glory and fame on the battlefield, the expression of personal ability--but it's ultimately a communal activity meant to benefit all involved. I wonder, then, how different that is from what the Hive do. I'm not talking about the Lucent Brood, either. I mean the tithe system. Let's try to break it down. A Guardian in the Crucible and a Hive Thrall both A) kill their enemies, B) gain power (here, "power" represents the idea of skill for a Guardian and a more literal increase in strength and nourishment for a Thrall due to the paracausal nature of the sword logic), and C) give some amount of power to others; Guardians do it in an indirect way by sharpening the skills of their peers, whereas Hive give tribute. As they tithe up the chain, they improve the chances that their superiors and, ultimately, the Hive Gods survive... and thus, the Hive as a species. Guardians becoming stronger improves the odds that humanity survives. Perhaps greater Hive take power from lesser Hive; it's not something that lesser Hive choose to give. But we know Hive can change who they tribute to, as evidenced by defectors from one brood to another (such as Kelgorath). The more I think about it, the more I say... I know it was done out of necessity, but was Oryx a hypocrite when he created the tithe system?! Giving power is of the Sky, not of the Deep. The Deep takes. A subtle distinction may be that when a Hive pledges itself to one of the gods, they might need to deny their sense of self. Kelgorath describes himself as a weapon to be wielded by Xivu Arath. In this way, any killing that Kelgorath does is sort of done by Xivu Arath, and the tithe reflects that in a literal (but paracausal) sense. Anyways, it's interesting that even a seemingly basic differentiation--"I fight for the sake of myself" vs. "I fight for the sake of others"--can be distorted when looking at a large enough scale. Guardians (good ones, anyways) are mostly the latter, whereas Hive are mostly the former. But I doubt either is completely free of the other school of thought. As Byf said, it's about intention.

In the Festival of the Lost lore Immaru is back to swapping out his shell to go out into the city and him playing dress up is becoming one of my favourite bits

I think the truly gain power from sword logic you still need a connection to the worm. Thus, Erie’s connection to Ahsa.

a part of my hunters story/lore is that for a time she was invested in the sword logic to understand and defeat the ones who tortured her as a human, by using their own powers against them and rivalling any hive in her wake, this made her relationship with her ghost shakey and dysfunctional, ultimately leading to her ghost only ever reviving her and not fully healing her wounds, in a loadout i've made with arthys's embrace's ornament, the gauntlets arent something she is wearing but her actual arms now, she lost them by an oger grabbing her by the arms and ripping them off, later her exo brother (my warlock) created these gauntlets for her, when she got new arms her ghost was displeased. After all of this my hunter, Mia, abandoned her obsession with sword logic and took to fighting them with the light, however her ghost, Izi, still wont regenerate her arms back as a reminder that if she ever was to fall back into darkness much worse would happen, so much so her ghost would be willing to abandon its purpose. I fucking love hive lore so much and i love hearing new things from you that only further cement my characters lore into truth 🙏

and thanks to this years festival tales of the forgotten he does it again

Gotta love the lore 😌🔥

You can’t forget that “The Hidden” are always watching. Immaru was under supervision the whole time.

I love Immaru as his character

To be fair...Immaru does have a point. A lot of us, myself included, have dressed up our ghosts in some pretty silly looking shells.

"Your ligth will only grow if you feed him worthy opponents". Lord Saladin.

Because guardians started off so late in the game being played, it seems the traveler would HAVE to introduce its own logic within the chaos of the light by weaving a similar growth formula into our powers. The alternative would mean the light is so raw and volatile that 6 guardians with a fraction of the light killed a god who's been power leveling for potentially millions of years...if that's the case why couldn't the traveler just defend itself?

I’m just saying, I’ll gladly give up my Throne World if it becomes a good PvP map

i hope you cover the whole lore of this year's Festival of the Cost and Immaru's Wacky Misadventures while we bust Headless ones

Great video. I laughed too hard when Byf's inner Sean Connery came out: "Shpeshies" 😂

the hive are literally the meme of Villain: "we are more alike than you think" Hero: "how" Villain: "we both eat food" Hero: 😧

I love how this lore tab may unintentionally call back to the Lucky Pants lore tab. Shaxx is accusing Cayde of using an illegally modded holster, which is the name of the exotic's perk, to which Cayde replies that they aren't illegal, but are just really lucky. It reinforces the idea that the crucible is about fairness and forcing guardians to become better as a unit

In a sense you could argue that crucible and its various benefits and how it effects not only the guardians and their various factions within but also boosts the morale of the last city strengthens the vanguard as a whole Which I think could be classed as crucible being a method of bomb logic? Could be wrong tho

Immaru with a cyclops google is something we all want to see.

I feel like the idea of guardians following the sword logic (or something similar) has already been done: the Shadows of Yor. Following Dredgen Yor (who was also corrupted by Hive magic), they are obsessed with killing other guardians for the sake of it (even if they claim they aren’t corrupted yet).

Immaru was hitting that Clark Kent disguise with those sunglasses 😂.

Next video idea How Do Ghosts Swap Shells?

So according to Immaru, Sword Logic is kill mobs for XP and level up. Shaxx meanwhile follows Skyrim's system where everything gives XP, not just killing.

7.30 Its about fairplay? Hasnt Shaxx never seen a match with cheaters??

Pretty funny thought to think about

This is the Destiny version of when Michael, Dwight, and Jim went "undercover" in the Office.

Based on the Hexed Ghost shell one way to put it could be that when the Hive guardians are killing each other they're thinking, "By killing you I become more powerful." Whereas when guardians kill each other in the cruiclbe the thinking is, "By killing you YOU become more more powerful." Basically the difference could be that the sword logic is fundamentally selfish and self serving whereas guardians are doing things for more selfless and communal goals.

Shouts out to all the guardians in the colosseum of the last city all these years

I view activities like Gambit and Crucible as Sword Logic Light, or Sword Logic with a conscience. While yes just like in sword logic we fight and kill each other to gain strength, we use that strength to then help others, make friends and rivals, and just like so many fighters from our real lives and movies/video games/tv shows will say "you never truly know someone until you've fought them" thus we learn about our fellow guardians and how best to support them when working with them in future endeavors. I learned how most of the people that iv encountered in multiple modes (not a lot but enough) play the game in order to be a better teammate to them in the other game modes because i learned how they fight from the Crucible or Gambit.

Competition vs Conquest. The attitude of "Learn from the best" vs "Survival of the fittest"

I think it's be cool to see a what it takes to use make use of the sword logic, it'd be a bit more speculitive but intersting. Paracausality is an obvious pre-requisite but does it need the use of hive magic? Is there a reason only a few other than the hive have shown use of it? As much as I'd like to see it I don't know there's enough info to make a video on it.

I though I had whilst listening - the Sword Logic - when fully enacted, reduces the population down to 1, the final, strongest combatant. The guardians intent in contrast (as discribed) is the collective safety of many.

I think Shaxx reasoning is kinda a lame excuse but maybe right in spirit. The difference between the crucible and the Hive trials by combat is that the Crucible is a team sport. In this way you have a team of diverse combatants working towards a common goal and overcoming challenges. This is bomb logic. We go into strikes, dungeons, and raids as teams of guardians with different classes, traits, gear, and even motivations but work together to beat these challenges. For the Hive and their sword logic it is always zero sum.

I think another example of crucible not following the sword logic is the mercy rules they directly contradict the sword logic

Ours is a Shield Logic. We do not hone our blade to strike down our oponnents, we reinforce the plate with training and teamwork so that we can better protect the people of the Last City and our allies. The Sword Logic dictates that those unworthy must perish and only the strongest will remain. Our Logic dictates that said unworthy, people who cant defend themselves, must be protected so that in the end we all remain. As you said, it's the intention that matters. Both ideologies utilise violence in the pursuit of greater power but one does it to enforce it's own existence and the other to weather the oncoming storm.

I would like to give my theorie on it to 1. I also think its about believe and intention like Oryx once sayed. Power MUST be taken. By following a ruleset like in a competition or anything like that we set ourself under the rule. Its a idea of a rule. We see the rule as universal to anyone. Therefor we dont TAKE the win like the sword logic but we EARN the win following the fair rules. Therefor tge sword ligic cant apply to us. We dont win to prove to universe our edge but to prove others our place under the rules of competition. 2. I dont thing a guadian can iust follow the sword logic without losing there powers as a whole. We follow the bomb logic of the traveler. The swod logic gives power with decimation (kill one to make less in the universe to make you stronger) The bomb logic of tge traveler uses the power of addision (Learn more skills, become more than befor and therefor gain power) I dont think we can at the same time follow the power of addision and suptraction. One blockes the other.

I think the Hive light bearers killing themselves absolutely mirrors the crucible in its entirety.

The key difference between the crucible and the sword logic is whilst the sword logic prises itself on its Darwinian approach, the crucible strives to enhance us as a collective force. There is some overlap. For example, Xivu wages war on her sisters out of the hive’s concept of love. She wants to see them succeed and live so challenging them is seen as a means of expanding that wish. You could argue that we do similar. But the crucible is mora akin to sparring than ritualistic combat. There is an honour code and a more complex purpose. The Cabal and their society have similar concepts as we have seen with Lord Saladin.

Immaru really getting into the Halloween spirit

Actually i think amaru changing his shell to meet shax was a great idea. Id change my clothes if i was an enemy of shaxx. And i think the reason imaru put on the sunglasses is because it hides his green eye unlike tower ghosts who have blue eyes

The Hive "I Must get stronger alone" The Guardians "Guardians are stronger together"

Sword Logic is a belief and practice. If you don’t believe in it or practice it then you’re not living by the sword

It's the difference between destroying your opponent to prove yourself strong and add to your strength, versus defeating your opponent to improve the both of you. I mean, presumably. Not every human is guaranteed capable of taking a lesson from defeat that will make them stronger. (Edited wording, like this better.)

3:11 to bypass commercial

Immaru be pulling a Clark Kent disguise on the Last City.

Sword logic is a concept that can be empowered by anyone who fights to grow stronger, you dont have to be hive or commited to the sword logic to empower it

So if I could do something with immaru, I would introduce him to the drifter and make a gambit variant with hive guardians. Could even spark an alliance with Sav loyal lucent hive against xivus faction

Shax: The crucible is about honor and fair play! Meanwhile me watching the shotgun aping titan at the bottom of his teams leaderboard teabag me because he killed me when i was in a duel with his teammate

Would be interesting if you could be a hive light bearer in destiny. "It's about uniting people" after all. Be like old halo elite playable characters. Already got the 3 classes!

Sword Logic: I kill and become stronger. Bomb Logic: I kill or die and become stronger.

If you study the occult, pretty much all of our systems of magic are predicted or teo things (most of the time both): Material and Intent. Both natural and ritual magic require a tremendous amount of focus and intentional purpose behind them in order to work. For example, you could bless something, utilizing all the right methods and materials, but if you don't MEAN it nothing will happen. Hell, focusing on the expectation of results can screw you up and render everything poitnless as it means that, deep down, your focusing on results rather than the works purpose. Like praying for a miracle and ingoring the one you get because it wasn't accompanied by golden light and a choir of angels. The Hives Sword Logic seems very much patterned on this principle of meaningful and singular intent. If it didn't have such a restriction one could accidentally whoops themselves into possesing a throne world. One again in terms of magic, you can gather the materials for a spell, utter the words and enact the rituals exactly as they should be done, and have it all be a colossal waste of time due to not unerringly, unwaveringly believing in its purpose and solely focusing your intent behind it. Granted I do enjoy the idea of a Guardian experiencing such bad day that, in their anger and frustration, they kill a boss with such intent behind it that they end up ascending into Hivehood unknowingly. Toland would be hilariously pissed xD

All good points, but it misses, I think, the grander point of Destiny's history, and our history with the Hive. The Hive practice the sword logic as an absolute. It is to them the pinnacle of truth. They practice it in its purest form, and they practice *only* survival of the fittest. We do all that and more. We take from our kills and conquests strength and power, sure, but we also gain power through other means. we gain victory through more than just strength, we achieve our stratagems through more than simple cunning. Swords are only a part of our arsenal. We also employ Bombs.

I 100% believe Immaru was being watched, so no real danger. The Hidden are everywhere, and I bet they were keeping an eye on Immaru.

So basically what Im getting from this is that Destiny's universal laws work on semantics XD

You know what saddens me about this lore entry? How Shaxx responded to him, seemed almost happy. Of course I can still sense his prideful strong tone but I have often wondered many times in the past what goes on in his head. He is more than just black and white as a character and I'm sure he has many stories to tell, if only he was ever in the spolight for once

Hey Byf, is there gonna be a new TSLAYP soon? It's been quite a while since the final Cursed Halo vid.

Wouldn't Dredgen Yor's corruption and subsequent killing spree be an example of a Guardian participating in sword logic?

3:10 end of add