Agreed. As much as we like to strive to be above it, war typically brings out the worst in people. We know that in W2 and today frontline soldiers often do unsavoury things, so it almost certainly took place back in allied countries too. I just hope Mark is right and that it wasn’t sanctioned high up
Britain invented the concentration camp. They used them in England during and after WW2 and the main one was run by the Polish govt. in exile who used it to torture prisoners of war and Polish nationals who were terrorists. They also used them in the "colonies" until at least 1954 officially and until the early 60's unofficially.
The allies attempted to make a Truth serum using a cannabis/ Hashish derivative but apparently the subjects kept bursting into uncontrollable fits of hysterical laughter. Needles to say it was abandoned.
@@riskinhos by that logic, we should have tortured more communists too. Only an inexperienced person lacking nuanced thought would advocate torturing and dehumanizing people, even if you disagree with their beliefs. Sounds a bit like an SS Nazi to me!
@@lord4067 I'm sure, then, he wouldn't mind looking into the same material that Ariel Toaff did, and doing a thorough deep-dive into documents and its related material. Happy Purim and Passover.
Don't forget such classics as "NAZI MEGA STRUCTURES" or that show where a group of guys believe Hitler is alive are literally hunting him, in the 21st century...
The irony is, that in modern times, the country most reviled for human rights, namely South Africa had a humane army. The Police force was notorious for violent interrogation, but the military fighting in Angola used a more subtle method to glean information. Alcohol!!! Make an African drunk, then tell him he is not important because he knows nothing........ and he will start bragging about how important he really is, and he'll tell you all you need to know.
My father was a US Marine during World War. He was in the 3/5 Marines. On Peleliu, He told me the minute they got a Japanese prisoner they abused them to the edge of death, brought them back started the questioning, kept the pressure on regardless of what it took. My father never shed a tear over this, had no remorse because he had seen a young private that was all but skined alive with his genitals in his mouth in one of the caves. This had a profound effect on my father and his Squad. They never took prisoners after that. And that was a very common policy, not an official policy mind you, but a policy none the less of taking no Japanese prisoners. Because the Japanese did not adhere to the Geneva Convention I'm not surprised that in the Pacific we did not either. I can't say I blame the Marines for their actions. What would any of us do in a similar situation is the question?
They were the torturers, rapists and mutilators in whatever places the Japanese Imperial Army went, be it Nanjing China, the Philippines, the Batan Peninsula, etc, which likely contributed to why they were nuked.
Yeah you can imagine this would impact you, the Japanese supposedly used to call the enemy long pig because they’d try to eat them if captured and other worse fates, so you can imagine the soldiers wouldn’t have too much heart for what to them where savages
Born in an army hospital, grew up here with Army vets, WW II, Vietnam vets, Afghanistan vets ect... The “good guys” did a lot of things that will never be included in the history books.
@@sonnyburnett8725 Given what the Germans were doing in the occupied countries and to even their own citizens, I can completely understand the impetus to use whatever methods got you the information you need. I would only argue against bad treatment because I think 1) it’s actually counterproductive and 2) the long term damage it does to the interrogator. But if torture got me the information needed to prevent the Nazis taking over my country and killing my family I sadly think I’d do more than I would ever do otherwise. Not a pretty thing is war and “rules of war” is a cruel joke.
@@Whitpusmc: Hitler "exterminated" over 1 million German citizens who had physical or mental anomalies and were not, in his view, good for the future Aryan race. This is how demented the Nazis were. These were German citizens. What could someone who was not a German expect? The Nazis/Germans were monsters.
Lately, I've been playing the War Stories episodes audibly in my wife's presence. Normally, she cares little for my WW2 historical interest and finds other things to do, but recently I've actually caught her listening.
" I say old chap! Would please tell us what we need to know? Jolly good!" "No? "I say old boy something needs to be done about that! Here, have some tea while I nail your foot to the floor, jolly good!"
@@jamesbinns8528 is hypocrisy nobody real respect Haga Convention . Sometime the only difference between hero and war criminal is the war criminal lose the war
@@silverangelism This is still NOTHING compared to what the Nazis had done even before they started WWII. Actual innocent people had suffered far worse in Germany for years at the hands of the people being interrogated in these "cages." The real hypocrisy is ignoring that clear distinction.
I have always been against roughing up prisoners BUT. As a 19 year old police officer in da yookay, I picked up a guy who was round the back of a factory at 1am. I interrogated him for 5 hours but he denied doing anything. At 6am the Sergeant came on duty and asked about the detainee. I told him.. He picked the detainee up by the neck with one hand, banged his head on the wall and threw him back into the chair and shouted "What have you been up to !"...The guy said "I broke into a factory and took all the money from the office and hid it outside"... So much for my 5 hours doing it properly. None of that appeared in my report.
True, but rather rather an over simplification. There's institutionalised behaviour, behaviour which is known about and a blind eye is turned, behaviour which is hidden because if it was found out action would most certainly be taken by the institution they belong to.
My grandfather (ex-RASC, fought in N.Africa & Burma, died in 1986) told me of a stand-off he witnessed between a British officer and an Australian officer, while he was helping to guard a POW pen in N.Africa. Two days in a row some Australian troops had shown up, signed out a German prisoner for interrogation and driven away with him, but then sent a message to say that the prisoner had been killed while trying to escape. The third time, the British officer refused to hand over a prisoner, and was threatened with being "topped" by the Australian officer. But eventually the Australians drove away and didn't return (to that POW pen at least).
@John Citizen . Well mate I’m an Aussie and well your right, The majority of people here are perfectly fine human beings but our elected leaders have gone mad with power during covid. They’ve allied with Murdoch who owns 80% of the media here and bias it towards the liberals. Scomo he might look like a nice old man but he’s got some real sinister intentions. He allowed a act to pass through parliament without a judges approval. allowing police to now hack in manipulate impersonate and remove or add stuff to your social media accounts. As well as using a taxpayer funded flight to ship Brian Houston to Mexico City when set to appear in court for not reporting his pedo dad 16 years ago after a deathbed confession. Dan andrews is a complete tyrant using rubber pellets and injuring dozens during the protests which the media called riots and stopped helicopters from flying over to not make the coppers look bad. Their forcing ridiculous mandates even with my town of Mackay. The health minister threatened to lock the town down if we didn’t reach 80% jabbed in 2 weeks and most of the businesses have been forced to make vaccine mandates. And they hideously outplaying the severity of covid calling it long covid that hangs around for 18 months. Our country’s sick and most people have been manipulated to the point that more have committed suicide then died from covid as of afew months ago. 0 Emissions by 2050 with coal being our only proper industry anymore with no more cars no more trucks nothing, Australia the idea and the peoples hope are dying with it. Don’t be surprised if in a few months you start seeing Australian immigrants. now our tyrannical leader scomo the one who went to Hawaii during enormous bushfires caused partially by him cutting funding afew months prior. Is now proposing identification needed for voting. We started as a dry shithole we still are a dry shithole and now we’re a depressed self hating communist shithole. God help us all. P.S Dan Andrews also threatened segregation for non and vaxxed people and the states have been closed for months my phycologist was upset the other day because he hadn’t seen his daughter for 18 months. We can’t even fight back if we wanted to, they took all our guns or lives you can’t even smoke 5 metres from a bus stop anymore and they were even considering making smoking illegal. GHA
@@uncle7162 I've never taken such an in-depth look at the situation, but I agree, we're fu**ed. I might move to the Netherlands where my father came from if it gets any worse.
When I was stationed in Germany (63) , I got to talk to an old German vet who was held by Australian forces . They gave him food according to pow guide lines . 15 minutes to eat . So they boiled the food so it burned the mouth and caused severe damage. Sometimes you become what you hate.
@@uncle7162 that is crazy Uncle ! It sounds like you writing about my home country Canada ! I'm working on a huge construction site in Vancouver ! On this project no one is allowed to smoke or wape , not even on the roof or outside, where the wind would blow away the smoke...... I'm not vaccinated , so the only way they allow me to enter the job site, if I'm willing to take a rapid Covid test twice a week ! A pack of cigarettes cost us in Vancouver roughly $20 ! That's highway robbery ! How much are you guys have to pay in Australia ?
I once had root canal treatment by a skilled dentist, a person who did everything not to cause me pain. One part of the root could not be fully anaesthesised. That was one tough hour. It gives one perspective on what will happen if people actually try to hurt you.
I knew a dentist who had an ex royal marine in his chair , he hurt the guy let out a bit of a yelp told him not to be such a baby , he jumped out of the chair telling him he was injured in the Falklands and never felt pain like it went for him chased him down the stairs into the street !
That old chestnut...info obtained by torture can be verified. EG, when British Yardie gangs in London torture victims to obtain info on where drug caches are hidden (typically, they nail them to the floor and place a hot iron on their chest to burn through their ribs) they will know if the information they extract is accurate by whether or not it locates the drugs. The fake answer meme is spurious. Torture inevitably works.
I know a dentist in Sweden who is a confesssed Sadiist, she admits using her patients to inflict pain for her pleasure. She scares the hell out of me. Havent seen her since covid stopped travel.
As a Flight Cadet at RAFC Cranwell I was in 1968, caught by the SAS on Exercise King Rock. This took place in West Germany. We were subjected to "battlefield interrogation." This included being dragged barefoot over broken blue metal road stones until our feet bled. (We had another several days of foot slogging ahead) and suspended from the bow of a tree with barbed wire under our bare feet. The consensus was that the training was to encourage anyone in danger of capture by our Cold War Adversaries, would know the purpose for which pistols were issued. As Kipling wrote long ago, "... Go to your God like a soldier."
Indeed Ross - I have read some quite verifiable books about the training of British special forces that included capture and field interrogation; many of the methods seem familiar to what was alleged against M19 in this video. On the other hand it's also interesting to note how prisoners like Hess never claimed theiy were tortured (AFAIK) and how ultimately the biggest source of intelligence came from hidden mikes and good old fashioned police work.
It seems that Nazi, Imperial Japanese, and Soviet torture and mistreatment of POWs is fairly well known, but it is interesting to hear about others. Perhaps another, similar, video covering the American mishandlings and another for the Italians could be interesting as well. It seems inevitable that every major power must have had at least some problems, even if such things were not officially sanctioned.
American mishandling of japanese American citizens is widely known, but about pows Mark Falton made a great video about the Rhine camps where German pows were located by Americans
Victor's justice is never the subject of scrutiny. Mind you, there is something rather humerous about the Gestapo and SS complaining about interrogation techniques of the British.
Actually, the perception that victor's justice is never the subject of scrutiny often makes criticisms of it much harsher and more sensitive. The failure of Soviet-dominated East Germany to face up to the responsibility for its Nazi past and instead view themselves as victims of both the Nazis and the western Allies is the reason why so many far-right movements have sprung up in the former East German territories over the past few decades.
"Never the subject of scrutiny" is quite the overstatement. If the victor is a somewhat transparent system as democracies are (even the monarchical UK), truth is bound to come out, due to investigative pressure.
It's a really bizarre comment when you are watching a video about it made by a person from the country concerned, based on extensive freely published historical research by people from that same country. You are literally watching some of that scrutiny you don't think exists right now.
Mark, as an Angloid, is naturally inclined to controlled narration after having been selectively bred for hundreds of years by Hasbaras and Anglo Zionists.
During my 23 years in Brit Army I served with and was on good terms with a SAS Sgt Maj. He once told me that you must never mistreat any captured enemy. Treat them with kindness, almost all captured where wounded, sort out the wounds then talk to them gently. It didn’t matter if neither spoke the others language, by talking, pointing you got a message across, that they where safe and he was of the opinion that they would realizing they would not be harmed they would gradually come across with names and places. Slowly slowly catches monkey, he was of the opinion this worked. John
I was in the Australian Army for nine years. During this time I was on guard duty when several prisoners were brought in to the guard house-I was on a long duty weekend, my rank Pte. Sig. Military prisoners under military guard-therefore they were not under civilian criminal convictions and we were not at war, unless you count the cold war-but they would have been in a Federal prison, not a regional gaol. The were treated so poorly, so roughly, and so badly that I decided on the spot that I would serve my time and then leave. I made mistakes, and learnt, as part of growing up to take it on the chin, fairly and like a man, but to be treated as poorly as these soldiers were was irresponsible and unusually cruel. I have no doubt whatsoever that captured soldiers in all the wars, including Vietnam, were subject to inhuman torture. As trainee soldiers I expected ritual brutalisation-we were off to war, after all, but power corrupts......
For your average soldier, that's good advice, you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. But, when dealing with enemy intelligence operatives who are trained to dissemble and obfuscate, torture can work wonders.
Would you do that for a Nazi specially an SS knowing what they were doing today POWs and innocent civilians or if you knew about the concentration camps
Apart perhaps books like Dr Helen Fry's "The London Cage: The Secret History of Britain's WWII Interrogation Centre" (Yale University Press, 2017) and "MI9: A History of the Secret Service for Escape and Evasion in World War (Yale University Press, 2020)". Almost all of the topics Dr Felton covers can be researched in other places.
Fish & chips? Shepherd’s pie?? AN ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? For Pete’s sake man, I only lived in London for a summer during law school, but even I was able to find all the yummy food England had to offer! It’s not all bangers and mash ☺️
Mark should cover the "Operation Keelhaul" Operation Keelhaul was a forced repatriation of former Soviet Armed Forces POWs of Germany to the Soviet Union, carried out in Northern Italy by British and American forces between 14 August 1946 and 9 May 1947. Anti-communist Yugoslavs and Hungarians were also forcibly repatriated to their respective governments. Nearly all of these men were shot or hanged!
Theres a lot of stuff we would like him to look into for us and the sake of history, but unless we can offer Patreon its not fair to ask, I would but at the present I am on "straightened" times.
I understand that the problem was that the Soviets were holding British and American PoWs who had been liberated from camps ineastern Europe. There was some "suggestion" that if we didn't send the Russian and other prisoners back Stalin would not release the western allied prisoners that he was holding. I don't think that Operation Keelhaul was quite as unthinkingly callous as it appears at first glance.
I'm very sorry but this is an irrational point of view. Conflict, physical or otherwise, is the normal state of human affairs. This is how we decide who gets to make what decisions. The only true sin here is to be powerless. As the saying goes, do unto others before they have a chance to do unto you.
The BEST method of all was found to treat prisoners very well, and at the SAME time have hidden microphones listen in to their conversations with other prisoners!!! They did this in a German Officer POW camp in England, and got great information!!!
That came to light some years ago when one of the mansions used was found to have a network of old wiring and hidden microphones. I think there is a book based on those overheard conversations. Not all of the officers opened up, however; some only spoke freely when out of doors.
Gosh. Thank you, Mark. If you want something done so much that you don’t mind how it’s done, appoint the right person and look away. Hence to prevent war crimes, don’t delegate your own responsibility, and never ever look away.
and I still can't get over what those Japanese Military and Doctors did to the US Bomber Pilots and Crews in the final days of WW II 📚 they ate that Mans liver.... and got away scott free
Yeah the more I learn about WW2 the more I come to the realization that the imperialist Japanese were worse than the nazis. Probably explains why we have pretty much occupied Japan ever since but Japan never really paid for what they did and it causes problems to this day. It's still a huge factor of the tension between China and America and I can't be mad at China for being pissed that the Japanese don't even acknowledge their atrocities
I'm sure this wasn't new for British intelligence. I'm guessing similar things happened to anti-empire dissidents in colonies, mandates, and even the dominions.
@@gr-s2143 Uhh no. The CIA are an international gestapo that literally destroy nations. The gestapo is not even comparable to the brutality of the CIA. Not to mention, the many CIA torture experiments.
An interesting link you have appeared to have missed: As you mentioned, Scotland was enlisted in the German Army in South West Africa (Namibia), in the timeframe 1904-1907, which is the exact period in which the Germans were perpetrating the, very recently recognised, Namaqua and Herrero genocide. I'm wondering if he participated in any atrocities, report about it to his masters in British intelligence, or maybe it influenced his later actions against German POW's ?
Interesting. Though since this was a recent admission by the German govt. Are other sources about this massacre available? If not it might not have been available to mark to discuss. But yes good point.
@@alexspareone3872 andrew's original comment references a Monty Python sketch. The character couldn't pronounce the letter "C" because he'd been frightened by a bat as a child. "Ah, you were frightened by a Cat". "No, a bat". Other parts of the sketch involve escaped Nazis such as Himmler and Hitler living under the assumed names Mr. Bimmler and Mr. Hilter, and seeking election in the Minehead byelection. "I gave Mr. Hilter my baby to kiss and he bit it". The sketch concludes with the line, "What a stupid bunt". I would continue my explanation, but I only signed up for the five minute argument, not the full half hour.
Human nature is immutable. If the situation calls for it, we are all monsters. Hardly surprising to hear these stories when you think about it for more than a moment.
It is not true that human nature is immutable, which means it is unable to be changed. There are countless examples of people living "above themselves", such as making great sacrifices including but not limited to making the ultimate sacrifice.
As a young man in the 1980s I had a Dutch school friend whose father told us a story that after the war he saw German soldiers being forced to walk in a line along their beaches to clear them of land mines. He said it was to the delight of those onlooking, and there were many he said that watch these proceedings, that great cheers would go up when one poor unfortunate soul was blown to pieces and killed. Now again, I was young but the story stuck with me as I had not heard of any 'allies and their atrocities' events mentioned to me ever growing up. World War II seemed to me in a sense a very 'good guy versus the bad guy type of event'. Now, I must say that I believed my friend's father but again I had no sense or understanding that these type of things went on or occurred. Years passed and much later in 2015 I had the fortune to see the Danish film 'Land of Mine". The film is inspired by real events tells the story of German prisoners of war forced to clear land mines in Denmark after World War II. It is estimated that over two thousand German soldiers, including numerous teenagers, under the command of German officers but against the Geneva Conventions, removed mines, nearly half of them being either killed or wounded. The removal was part of a controversial agreement between the German Commander General Georg Lindemann, the Danish Government and the British Armed Forces. May they Rest in Peace.
They were the ones that put the mines down that really only ever ended up killing civilians. It’s their responsibility to clear the mine fields they planted
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things. Terry Pratchett, Jingo
Yes. Books that talk about it; The London Cage: The Secret History of Britain's World War II Interrogation Centre by Dr Helen Fry. Manstein: His Campaign and His Trial by Baron Paget. Legions of Death by Rupert Butler. There was also a book written by a Sergeant that carried some torture out in the London cages that I can't remember right now.
He steals his stuff from others. He was my favorite ww2 historian, so learning this sucked. It’s a shame that it’s stills possible to work like this, it’s easy enough to check. Hopefully it’s just a matter of time until this becomes well known. I have no idea what is stolen and what is not
@@Meowface. Hmm, very good point. You don't create the world's largest empire by being nice guys or a bunch of wussies, and considering English history you may have a good point.
And he will sometimes tell the truth not obtainable by other means. You are naive. You are “virtue signaling “ .... shameful. You don’t understand how to fight evil. Stern methods sometimes necessary. Too bad your brain is infected with politically correct propaganda.
Effective torturers believe nothing that comes out of the mouths of subjects. They're not stupid. Interrogation is a psychological and intellectual game. Information that cannot be verified is worthless. And verified lies tells a torturer plenty about a subject.
Franz Werra was a BF109 pilot who escaped from Canada following a failed escape in UK (in which he persuaded the RAF to convey him to an airfield (pretending to be a Dutch Wellington pilot) where he nearly stole a Hurricane!) He wrote a book upon his return to Germany about his adventure. It was considered pro-British and not published as he described fair treatment - he did not experience mistreatment in the Cage. He gave lectures to aircrew on how to resist interrogation, principally by not, under any circumstances, conversing with the enemy or anyone personally unknown to the prisoner himself. It was noted that Luftwaffe personnel were much more interrogation resistant following Werra’s return to Germany.
Good stuff instead of being subject to the Victor's version of history. Now waiting for the Rudolf Hess papers to be released. He was like a vegetable at Nuremberg. Why?
@@1000cleverboy humor is tough over the internet, right? Pertwee was number one for me, and always will be. He was The Doctor when I were but a lad. We named our cat "Aggedor" after the monster of Peladon.
@@Fractal_blip oh yeah I've seen those videos and they were good. But I meant as in the public doesn't talk about it, like it's only germany that gets the attention in the standard view of the war. Then again it's almost too dark to talk about lol
Interesting and informative. Excellent photography Job enabling viewers to better understand what/whom the orator was describing. Class A research project!!!
In Human Game: Hunting the Great Escape Murderers, Simon Read mentions the London cage and the complaints by its neighbours about the screams coming from it day and night.
Imagine the Germans having a land dispute with their neighbors, and here comes Britain picking a fight with them. Then when the Germans kick England's ass, they cry to America for rescue.
Whilst I understand that espionage and war is brutal and that some would argue that the ends justify the means, my main takeaway is that two wrongs don't make it right. Man's inhumanity to man.
I agree but neither Japan or the Soviets ever signed the Geneva Convention. And because the Soviets never signed it the Germans used that as an excuse to do what they did.
@@bigblue6917 and then the Soviets returned with 100 times the brutality, one of the reasons the Soviet advance was so terrifying: the Germans knew what they had done and that they would get worse back
@@bigblue6917 if an energy officer had information on their truth deployments which could save thousands of your soldiers or civilians but refuse to give it information after being asked kindly, what would you do?
Thank you Mark, another excellent episode. I'd like to see the counter-balance to this - I understand that RAF intelligence extracted a lot of information out of downed German pilots by treating them like colleagues, who can't leave the house. I only want the Felton treatment.
It’s easy to judge when one is sitting comfortably studying history from the comfort of an armchair sipping tea or coffee. It was said by those who fought in the dessert campaign that there was more of a ‘fairness’ in the conflict where as in Europe it was, at times dirty. Could the reason have been that there were no SS and even fewer fanatical Nazis involved in North Africa.
Yes they did ! My mothers brother out of bleachy park was flown by the air force to interrogate downed German pilots and others from 1941 till the end of the war
My father was a Pioneer Corps 'Silent Listener' in various camps sitting in on interrogations. He spoke fluent Garman as he was a British orphan who was brought up in German age 3 in 1907. He came back to the UK in 1936. I only learned this after he died when I did some research after receiving his MOD records.
What a surprise. Who would have thought that during the war to deal with bastards you need your own bastard. I'm pretty sure what happened at The Cage in London was nothing that the SS or the Gestapo wouldn't and didn't do at places like The "House Prison" in Berlin. Very interesting topic you have provided as usual. Love the topics you cover.
"They did it, so we must do it as well!" - Yeah...and many were "just following orders" (which is no defense - unless not following them would have gotten you killed, then you can argue like that, but I doubt the Brits killed their interrogators if they didn't threaten prisoners and abuse them!)...frankly those involved should have been strung up as a warning to others, that this was tolerated and more or less swept under the rug? That is god awful!
One of the most unfortunate aspects of war is that it tends to allow some of the most reprehensible elements in society to, float to the surface. Scotland was almost certainly one such individual; a nasty, sadistic little tin-pot tyrant.
Good work, Marc. As a German I still feel ashamed by the Nazi barbarism, but I think it´s only fair to put a light on all sides of that awful period of time.
The way the British have died on the battlefield either on land or sea all throughout history before and after the war is self evident of equal severity.
There is no doubt that if Germany had won the war, the tactics used in the " London Cage " would not only have been amplified, but mass produced on a greater scale by the SS and Gestapo. The citizens of the U.S. never had to endure the horrors of The Blitz and London bombings by the Luftwaffe. The Brits not only did, but made sure some of those " connected " to the Nazi hierarchy pay severely. We can take a moral high ground 76 years later. But there are still some left on the planet that were alive back then that say " Serves'em right." Horrible " payback " for horrible actions. Thanks for posting Mark Felton.
Important to our understanding of history, and most likely present day events, that allied torture and governmental cover-ups are exposed in this way. Thanks.
That goes with everyone not just the allies, it seems a lot of information has come out in different ways. Anyone that surprised with this information is a buffoon. As well as anyone being surprised that we tortured back then and today. They had their reasons it's not for me to judge. That's nothing to the corrupt misinformation that we are getting nowadays. Hell nowadays they're changing history and making it up as they go along.
I livid In Germany for 15 years , I’m English. I knew a man who was a soldier high rank , end of the war they thought , better to be captured by the Gentle man Brits than the Soviets. Worst mistake of there lives he said, we where very very Bradley treated and beaten , breaking both his forearms with clubs .
