Did Cardinal Zen Just Refute Me on Papal Heresy? 

Thank you so much, Father!

Thanks!

Thanks!

Praise God…& God bless you!

I'm speechless at all the Lofton simping... Cardinal Zen was providing a right of reply to Lofton...

@@MickyboyHby using insults and ad hominem’s? Very unbefitting of a retired Cardinal.

@@andrewclarke3044 Lofton appeared to call to in question Cdl. Zen's credibility (ie. whether Cdl. Zen actually indeed have difficulty with FS), providing a typical, "I'm not buying it" response (like whether Lofton "buys" anything or not is the standard by which anything should be judged, or whether anyone should even care whether he "buys" anything or not), as well as questioning whether he's fit to be a Cardinal. Hopefully that provides a bit of context. Also, where was the actual "insult" from Cdl. Zen to Lofton? Is it actually an "insult" to state that Lofton is a big man? He made an observation (and Lofton often bangs on about stating facts). He didn't call him "fat boy", or anything like that. Is it actually an "insult" to state that he has a small beard? Did he actually "insult" him over his tattoos, or, rather, suggest that he cover them up, if he wants to speak as a Theologian??? Seems as though Lofton has ruffled Cdl. Zen's feathers (perhaps due at least in part to the examples I cited above) - I would suggest that if Lofton is any kind of a man, he would apologise for whatever he's said about Cdl. Zen, in his large public forum, and perhaps also invite him on to his program to discuss. Pax...

lol indeed.

Thank you so much!

To say the least. People are seeing how bankrupt they are at this point.

Ah, yes, back to the "good old days" of trad bashing and caricaturing all trads as somehow being dissenting and schismatic!

I agreed.

To be fair, it is pretty hard not to clown on this pompous ass.

@@ReasonandTheology I bet you do, lol. That's why so many bowed to MacCarrick.

So you have blind faith in the teaching of the Church priests, Bishops, Cardinals, Pope, etc

Didn't know Lofton was so precious. Cdl. Zen made a robust statement IN RESPONSE TO Lofton going after him! Did you get that?!

You too!

Thanks! God bless you too!

Thanks

The implication that Cardinal Zen is either demonic, or fulfilling demonic assignments, makes me extremely uncomfortable.

@@RebekahArmusik hi Rebekah, we are all attacked by the devil, that evil spirit sometimes puts in our minds thoughts or ideas and we sometimes go along and let it spill out of our mouth. At that moment I have just read the initial statements by Card Zen and it found it be ill-inspired. I was in my car driving so I wrote what I could at the moment during a red light. On the other hand, attacks to the pope are for sure not inspired by the Holy Spirit. I apologize if that offends you but I could further demonstrate this comment. Thank you.

Thank you

Gaslighting.

@@ReasonandTheology Your problem is that you have been addressed by one of the few Cardinals who would actually die for the Faith and has proven that with a life filled with suffering. You should take this as a sign that you should find another line of work. There are plenty of honorable ways of making a living. A presumptuous RU-vidr is not one of them.

You the gaslighter, Lofton!

Yes I unsubscribed because of this

Wow! Somehow, it’s OK to criticize magisterial authority of the body of Christ, but not of His princes. Michael appears to adequately reboot criticism of his apostolate.

Thank you!

Thanks!

Thank you!

I appreciate that

@@shepherddog1199 I'm no theologian, just a Catholic. However, I could share how I think when I light a candle? In the dessert when the Isrealites were led out of Egypt, God gave instructions, specific instruction on how to assemble physically His presense with them. Long and short, He had the Holy of Holies where the Ark containing the law & Aarons rod was stored, topped by the mercy seat. Just beyond, the Menorah, those candles, seven. Also, the 'Bread of the presense'. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. When Catholics light a candle it is akin to honouring the Holy Spirit who is the binding Spirit of Love that expresses Unity. Oneness. The 'Body of Christ' is unified... Lighting a candle is akin to saying, please pray for me you Saints who have been Sanctified and are alive in Christ & invoking the Holy Spirit. That's my take 🤷‍♀️ I hope it helps a bit :)

This channel has refuted the Vatican Garden statues before. Unless there is some missing evidence I am not aware of, there are no pagan deities represented in Vatican Gardens. As for candles, pop6997 has a good response but I'd like to add my two thoughts as a fellow Catholic. When we light a candle we bring our intentions that we bring into the Church or shrine. The lit candle remains burning even after we leave, a sign of our prayers and devotion and the fire of faith. It is reminiscent of the Easter Vigil when we all carry lit candles, representing each of our souls, and the flame of the Holy Spirit. A candle is a tangible symbol or gesture that is hopefully allowing us all to call to mind our Baptism, and the Theological Virtues we were imbued with. We ask our prayers in Faith that they can be granted, with Hope that they will be, and out of Love for our intentions (as Christ commended the faith and love of the friends of the paralytic) or with loving gratitude for the saints and their inspiring witness and the struggles they similarly endured. We pray with loving abandonment to God's will, and the candle burns usually for next several days, even during the masses that happen in the Church, where our intentions we bring to the altar or place before the altar are united to the perfect Sacrifice. I hope that helps?

If I may respond to your second question, I assume you're talking about the Pachamama incident. If indeed that's what you're referring to, it was centrally one object with two smaller pieces that caused the controversy. The long and short of it is that some folks who dislike Pope Francis claimed that the object was an idol to Aztec goddess Pachamama. However that's not true. The truth of the matter is that the Pope invited Native South Americans who hold the Faith to the Vatican to talk with the Pope about issues they face. As a gift, they gave him an icon of Mother Mary as she is depicted in their culture¹. At this point the controversy was minimal. What made it maximal was that days later the Pope referred to the controversy as a whole as the Pachamama controversy², which in the mind of the scandalized was confirmation that the icon was actually an idol. 1 And furthermore, even *if* it was originally an idol it's irrelevant because the faithful who venerated and gifted it understand it as the Virgin Mary, and the accepter of the gift understood it as the Virgin Mary. God commands us to destroy idols & we've always done such. Even the very Faith itself in its summit of the Eucharist is a proclamation by God that His offering triumphs over the pagan offerings to false gods by taking their own thing, sacrifices, and turning it into a good thing. 2 Which was a misstep and he should not have done it, but it is understandable as that's simply what everyone was calling it at that point (and still is to this day).

I might review it.

@@ReasonandTheology Awesome! 😎

Are you implying that Cardinal Zen is demonic?

Thanks!

Agreed. Absolutely a masterclass response.

I agree. Also, keep in mind, Zen exercises zero authority in the church today as a retired cardinal - so he is no longer a leader in that sense.

Maybe he is no longer able to intellectually engage in this level of debate at his age, and all he can do is mouth off like this. There are good reasons to retire, including you are no longer capable of the critical thinking required to do your job. We need to pray for him lest he falls in his last years on this earth. Hail Mary...

@@Catholiclady3Your criticism of (retired) Cardinal Zen, a very holy man, is over the top and out of line.

The comments Michael made sounded to me like he was mocking our cardinals/bishops & clergy. 🤷

CDL Zen has been through hell on earth. No one is perfect, but I find it offensive to attack a go after good & holy priests/bishops, yet remain silent on those surrounding our pope, like Fernandez & the rapist Rupnik.

I thought so too, it is weird! However, it apparently is his account and hours went by with folk highlighting and spreading it.....and we live in odd times. One way or the other, Michael was correct to respond & in a mature fashion. 👍

Agreed.

@@pop6997it is possible the result of old age. My father became impatient and judgmental which was followed by Alzheimer’s. His personality changed. I am inclined to have sympathy . However , those statements, regardless of of who made them are wrong

@seaside9670 I said this too and got attacked as if I called his character into question. It's a fact of life

Yes. But more importantly they are bashing the papal magisterium and creating division.

Thank you again for your, balanced and catholic response to Cardinal Zein’s disappointing remarks.

Thank you so much!

100%

Ok to support someone. Different when they're put on a pedestal and idolised, as though they can do no wrong. For better or worse, for whatever degree of merit there is in my putting this forth (if any) - and I lay myself out to be corrected if I'm wrong here - I'm just putting this out there, in case you (and so many Lofton fans) need to check yourself.

@@MickyboyHif you feel this strongly about him, why continue to watch his content & comment?

@@MickyboyH I don’t think anyone here idolizes Michael. We respect his knowledge, diligence, and honesty. If we did idolize him we’d certainly need to “check” ourselves, but an assumption that people are here doing that is not very charitable.

Thanks! Forgiveness is always available.

Stick around and you will understand this channel defends the magisterium and I am helping people gain confidence in the church. Cardinal zen insulted me and called on people to cancel me. That isn’t meant to lead me to Christ. This feels like gaslighting even if you don’t mean it that way.

@@ReasonandTheology Thank you for your response. Yeah, I’m not trying gaslight you, I don’t think I’m smart enough to know how to that, but who knows. I was just trying to help from an outsiders view. I think its important to take criticism with humility. From what you read from Cardinal Zen, it sounds like he enjoys listening to what you have to say. He mentioned that you would do well covering your tattoo, I thought the same. I’m not trying to be mean, I just don’t think it is a good look on someone trying to teach the faith, so I wouldn’t subscribe just seeing tattoos. I would love to give you the benefit of the doubt even though you have tattoos, as I would love for you to give Cardinal Zen the benefit of the doubt. What I do love about your video is that you defend the faith, but I have to say the two videos I watched of yours came across as arrogance. You completely rejected the Mission of Divine Mercy and called it protestant, while I believe it really comes from God. Anyways, I want you on this boat that is coming soon. I believe the Triumph of Blessed Mother is soon, we cant be wasting our time with pride. Pride does not come from God. And when we have opportunities for humility, embrace it as our Lord embraced His cross for us. God bless you buddy, and I promise I’m not trying to gas light you, I hear this phrase all the time and I’m like whats that again

I thought the same thing about folks like Mr. Lofton.

The fact that Lofton went in to over-drive in response to this, indicates he was rattled by Cdl. Zen "daring" to offer right-of-reply to Lofton's hit-piece. By that logic, is Cdl. Zen now winning???

Thanks!

Thank you!

Here's the rub - plenty of people "do" do their own research. What they come up with, often earns them the title of "dissenter", "protestant", "schismatic", etc., by Lofton and his cohorts. Believe it or not, there is room for concern and discussion, and we are allowed to bring that forth - within the Church's concessions to do so... "NOT" just under Lofton's own terms and conditions, and/or when he says so!

@@MickyboyH DONUM VERITATIS: “...13. "God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout the ages, and be transmitted to all generations"(8) He bestowed upon His Church, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, a participation in His own infallibility.(9) Thanks to the "supernatural sense of Faith", the People of God enjoys this privilege under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, which is the sole authentic interpreter of the Word of God, written or handed down, by virtue of the authority which it exercises in the name of Christ… 30. If, despite a loyal effort on the theologian's part, the difficulties persist, the theologian has the duty to make known to the Magisterial authorities the problems raised by the teaching in itself, in the arguments proposed to justify it, or even in the manner in which it is presented. He should do this in an evangelical spirit and with a profound desire to resolve the difficulties. His objections could then contribute to real progress and provide a stimulus to the Magisterium to propose the teaching of the Church in greater depth and with a clearer presentation of the arguments. In cases like these, the theologian should avoid turning to the "mass media", but have recourse to the responsible authority, for it is not by seeking to exert the pressure of public opinion that one contributes to the clarification of doctrinal issues and renders servite to the truth. 31. It can also happen that at the conclusion of a serious study, undertaken with the desire to heed the Magisterium's teaching without hesitation, the theologian's difficulty remains because the arguments to the contrary seem more persuasive to him. Faced with a proposition to which he feels he cannot give his intellectual assent, the theologian nevertheless has the duty to remain open to a deeper examination of the question. For a loyal spirit, animated by love for the Church, such a situation can certainly prove a difficult trial. It can be a call to suffer for the truth, in silence and prayer, but with the certainty, that if the truth really is at stake, it will ultimately prevail. B. The problem of dissent 32. The Magisterium has drawn attention several times to the serious harm done to the community of the Church by attitudes of general opposition to Church teaching which even come to expression in organized groups. In his apostolic exhortation Paterna cum benevolentia, Paul VI offered a diagnosis of this problem which is still apropos.(25) In particular, he addresses here that public opposition to the Magisterium of the Church also called "dissent", which must be distinguished from the situation of personal difficulties treated above. The phenomenon of dissent can have diverse forms. Its remote and proximate causes are multiple…. This Instruction was adopted at an Plenary Meeting of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and was approved at an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect by the Supreme Pontiff, Pope John Paul II, who ordered its publication. Given at Rome, at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on May 24, 1990, the Solemnity of the Ascension of the Lord. JOSEPH CARD. RATZINGER
Prefect”

@@Liliana_Cavz congratulations on getting out of sedevacantism! That is wonderful. As you no doubt experienced, uncharity is very present in certain places. I finally woke up and realized I didn’t want my kids “doing the math” with that kind of confusing hypocrisy that we experienced in a traditional parish.

@@jenniferrobertscreative Thank you! Congratulations to you! Yes there was some hypocrisy and uncharitable behavior.

I hope so too

He probably won’t respond.

@@ilonkastille2993 he might have to considering some in the Vatican know about Michael due to others sending his videos to them. It’s not a good look to have retired cardinals attacking laity with ad hominems when they are meant to be a prince of Christ

@@irishandscottish1829 I agree.

Can you share more on the Holy Spirit’s role in the OM?

True. They limit charisms to the charism of infallibility.

@@ReasonandTheology For the older generations - limiting the charism to infallibility might have to do with all those…dare I say it… 🥴…90’s debates with Dr. James White…🤢…🤮…Oh man, that was rough. I think Dr. White would be proud of me for bringing that up. 🥴 Keep it together…keep it together. 😮‍💨 😮‍💨 There…now I feel so much better for letting it out. 😅

​@@swoosh1mil😢 at least Jimmy Aikin wiped the floor with him during a recent debate.

Thank you so much!!!

@@ReasonandTheologyMichael is it possible he is having a Biden moment? He is quite old. I know my dad had issues with his ability to to completely comprehend situations and analyze accurately reading matter when he got to be over 80

The uncharitable way you refer to CARDINAL Zen, just emphasises how you appear to have missed the reason and context for Cdl. Zen's statement here.

@@seaside9670 Is it possible you're a Lofton simp, and/or can't (or refuse to?!) see the reason and context for Cdl. Zen making this statement IN REPLY TO Lofton going after him???

I am astounded! Somehow, it is uncharitable to answer and deny someone else’s inaccurate criticisms. On the contrary, it is charitable to clarify and illuminate the issues related to such criticisms on specific topics. Pointing out inaccuracies and misunderstandings is considered quite lovingly a charitable act when done in the faith. Can any viewer of R&T suggest that Michael’s motivation is not promoting the Catholic faith Using empirical evidence. Michael Lofton did use appropriately cited evidence to support his position. He is not alone. He is supported by the Catholic Church and us as members. I hope you will forgive him for your suggestion that he has been uncharitable to Cardinal Zen by his style of rebuttal, when all he has been doing is to support and build Christ’s Holy Catholic Church by defending the faith. Michael Lofton’s arguments are reasonable whereas Cardinal Zen’s criticisms appears to have flaws by not conforming his reasoning to Catholic Church teachings. Whether he’s old or has gone through considerable trials in his life C. Zen has shown doubt in the authority of the Catholic Church over the years, not just this one time. Even if he has full culpability of his beliefs or not, we should pray for his soul and help guide him back into the fold of the Church. There is nothing uncharitable in that.

Thanks!

Thanks!

Not only cracks, but crackpots too! Welcome home! 😜

Thanks. Don’t let the Pharisees make you feel bad.

Hey, welcome! Yes, we do dress modest at Mass, that's true as it is entirely 'Thanks giving' which is the very best way to live.. However, never ever think your tattoos are the worst thing ever, they aren't. We all have tattoos of sorts that might be wonderful to us or not so much anymore....they're just marks of were we came from...like wrinkles. It's about where we're headed that counts & to honor & respect the Holy, and care about our neighbour. Sounds like heaven? Well, it is...❤

@@pop6997 appreciate it! I do dress respectfully. Always dress pants/khakis and a nice shirt. Never shorts or a tshirt.

Please don't feel self-conscious or take it personally if people look at you. I think that at Mass some people like to look around at other people, without even imagining it might make people feel they are being stared at or silently criticized. I have a habit of looking at people, although I also smile a lot, which is not the case with everyone. I'm really sorry if I've ever made anyone feel uncomfortable. We feed the needy at my parish and sometimes we have homeless people or mentally ill people come to Mass. You'd be surprised but you can tell they're Catholic by the way they receive Holy Communion, yet oftentimes they don't look too good. My parish is near the beach in California, and while a lot of people dress nicely for Mass, we have some, even some who are very devout, who come in wearing jogging clothes, jeans, or even shorts. To some observers, it's inappropriate, but not everybody is in the same place spiritually. I'm the only Catholic in my family, and if one of my family came to church, whether they were tattooed or with pink hair or nose rings, in shorts, or whatever, I would be ecstatically happy. And you know what? I think Jesus would be too.

You would do well to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and learn from the Bishops who have the authority to teach, and priests of the Church rather than RU-vid content by laypersons. Avoid the politics of the Church and focus on your prayer life, Holy Scripture, learning the Faith. We answer to the Bishop of our diocese. The rest is just noise. May God bless you.

Honest Q: if others are disturbed and confused by claims such as those made by Zen, i.e., that the Magisterium taught heresy, what should Lofton do if not respond publicly to Zen's claims?

Thank you!

Thanks!

Thanks!

Thank you so much!

I'm glad I was able to help and God bless you!

He doesn’t have a diocese and I appreciate the support.

I have only been a Catholic for a few years, and when I first encountered rad trads/sedevacantists I didn't know how to address them really, and then watching Michael's channel for years made me realize (by actually engaging with them due to how much I've learned from this channel), that they for the most part rely on lies to make their points about Pope Francis. So Cardinal Zen is flat out wrong. Many confused Catholics have come to this channel and have been strengthened in defending the Magisterium, and regained confidence in the Holy Father, and the promises of Christ to His Church.

@@CatholicSaintsAndAngels this happened to me as well. Praise be to the Lord for sending such a knowledgeable servant and defender of the faith such as Michael ❤️

Don't mean Lofton should somehow be immune of constructive criticism...

for anyone whose has followed. Michael will know that he responds to criticism by addressing the issues. He has apologized to those who he’s offended when he has erred why make the claim that he doesn’t accept criticism(?). That’s a cheap shot.

@@marksteo6178 Cheap shot? Ummm... yeah, nah! Lofton appeared to call to in question Cdl. Zen's credibility (ie. whether Cdl. Zen actually indeed have difficulty with FS), providing a typical, "I'm not buying it" response (like whether Lofton "buys" anything or not is the standard by which anything should be judged, or whether anyone should even care whether he "buys" anything or not), as well as questioning whether he's fit to be a Cardinal. Did I get this right? If so, then hopefully that provides a bit of context. Seems as though Lofton has ruffled Cdl. Zen's feathers (perhaps due at least in part to the examples I cited above) - I would suggest that if Lofton is any kind of a man, he would apologise for whatever he's said about Cdl. Zen, in his large public forum, and perhaps also invite him on to his program to discuss. Pax...

Thank you so much!

Thanks!

Agreed. Wild.

That’s what I immediately thought. Doesn’t sound like Cardinal Zen.

@@charlottelauzon3147 was this transliterarted from Cantonese?

He gets flack because he eats with prostitutes and tax collectors, being a shepherd to all kinds of sinners, hanging around with poor and ordinary people. He used to take the bus and go to visit poor neighborhoods. He's very "down to earth." Things like that, that don't seem dignified enough for a holy person. You know, stuff like what Jesus did.

I think all of the above in both your comments are true.

Thanks!

Indeed.

I appreciate it!

Thanks!

I appreciate that

So, you believe Cardinal Zen over the Successor of Peter, is that right? And would you like to explain how Michael is a "clown" and how your statement, which sounds rude, is consistent with Christian charity (which, of course, is not rude, per St. Paul, 1 Cor. 13:2).

@@AMDG_JMJ Always worth a chuckle when Lofton and his acolytes infer the lack of charity on the part of others, lol!

Curious, is Cardinal Zen your Bishop? If so, and you’re in his diocese, I can understand you suggesting that you would follow his opinions of descent on Catholic Church teachings. However, I’m sure you have a conscience and can see clearly the Cardinals doctrinal errors. This isn’t a personality contest. Although, I respect him greatly for his service to the faith, I have great concerns over his inability to hold his dissenting opinions of the magisterium to himself. He doesn’t appear to be building up the Catholic Church

@@MickyboyH So, there is no lack of charity in calling Lofton a clown? Was Lofton guilty of any lack of charity in this response to Zen? He seemed to take the mature, charitable high road to me. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

Submitting in humble obedience to the Holy Father is part of the faith. You cannot refuse obedience and "have the faith" / be "holy" at the same time. Here is what Pope Saint Pius X says: "And how must the Pope be loved? Non verbo neque lingua, sed opere et veritate. [Not in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth - 1 Jn iii, 18] When one loves a person, one tries to adhere in everything to his thoughts, to fulfill his will, to perform his wishes. And if Our Lord Jesus Christ said of Himself, "si quis diligit me, sermonem meum servabit," [if any one love me, he will keep my word - Jn xiv, 23] therefore, in order to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him. Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey - that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope." - Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union November 18, 1912

Thanks!

Thank you so much!

Thanks

Don't forget Lofton's latest reply, was in response to Cdl. Zen's response to Lofton's hit-job on him. I'd also suggest that Lofton's ongoing misapplication of Cdl. Zen's response - in his new and smug "About" section on this RU-vid channel - wouldn't fit the the definition of "humble OR respectful".

@@MickyboyH Notice, this issue is both very important and very simple, but the Trad psyche throws out this, "I think I detect some hubris in Michael's character" argument as if fixes anything for them. It doesn't. In fact, when your psyche reflexively protects you with that much force and that much insufficiency you should already know you're wrong.

Thanks

Geaux Tigers

Thanks!

Thanks!

Thanks

Looks like it.

@@shouldhavedonebetter No. I’m saying we should not make judgements of the competence or capabilities or knowledge or even actual state of grace simply on appearance or the past we knew or just found out about someone

​@@exercisethemind you're right, I should have more charity, so I deleted my replies - which I regret were peppered with vitriol and cynicism. I respect Michael's intellect, his debating abilities, and I learn from him. To be clear - Michael went too far in his refutation of Zen. He took the tat thing personally, and his final points regarding Cardinal Zen were the epitome of un-charitability and judgementalism. The man is 92 years old. Michael could have chalked up the tat and beard comment to being born in 1932 - a generational thing - but he didn't. Cardinal Zen had one of the most difficult posts in the Catholic Church, went thru Vat II and for many elderly Catholics the Synodal Church is now just a bridge too far. But we don't understand that, nor do we care to try. Read a little about Zen's life. The man has been thru it all. Michael descended into the very thing eating away at our Church - men implying Divine damnation against other men. I'm guilty of it too at times - and it's a sin. I was OK with Michael's refutation until the 29:23 mark - then it went way too far and over the top. Just one person's opinion. Peace to you.

No he didn't, actually - read it properly!

I think most viewers miss the bigger picture and the most important point. Michael Lofton pointed out Cardinal Zen’s judgments on magisterial documents that have magisterial authority were incorrect, and appear to promote undermining the authority of Christ Holy Catholic Church. If you are going to protect and defend Christ’s body - His Church - then it is right and good to defend the head of His Church. there is nothing dishonorable or inappropriate in doing so. Judging one’s style and doing so misses the point. Don’t miss the point… We are fighting evil outside and inside His body. Target appropriately

Not at all. You didn't watch the video. Stop trolling.

What do you mean?

SO bad! Zen made fun of his BEARD! So, yea, OBVIOUSLY Zen must be right! Bro, this was Zen's most embarrassing moment. Didn't prove anything about Michael except that Michael got his attention and he (Zen) had no substantial rational reply.

@@AMDG_JMJ Ordained priest and Cardinal > Cringe pseudo-theologian

@@Causainstrumentalis Successor of Peter > Dissenting Cardinal

Thank you!