Did Hittites participate in the Trojan War? (Homeric Keteioi) 

Ancient Greek, particularly of Homer, sounded different. As I understand it, it would be closer to “Ket-Tay-Oy”. I admit, however, that I don’t actually know how to speak any form of Greek, so I could be wrong

​@@dixonj41 you are absolutely correct but this can be attributed to changes in the language. Also it is known that linear b use the same symbols for syllables containing sounds which the latter Greek alphabet would distinguish in -Κ and -Χ. So the h in hitites would be written as Kitites in linear b and makes sense to refer to the same people

That's the MODERN pronunciation. It used to be pronounced as 'ket-ey-oy"

modern greek is not ancient greek. Modern greek is to ancient greek what vulgar latin is to latin

@@jcavs9847 yeah languages evolve what's your point?

There are numerous cities throughout the coast of Asia Minor, but even among the ancient writer there are disagreements on how far Achilles actually went. Great idea for a video.

@lordMartiya mho Achilles is priamaradu he raided the coast of Anatolia for 30 years so 3x more than Achilles in the Iliad

​@@WanaxTVcould be possible that he looted ugarit. The city was burned during the last bronze age destruction of troy. Their ships were away to fight hittite enemies in Lukka and their troops were in hatti to defend it against it's foes. There was a big war going on at hatti's western border. Interestingly, the gouvernor of cyprus warned the king of ugarit, that the seven ships which attacked his land, were of ugarit's own fleet. It seems that they were captured and used to sneak into ugarit's ports. Like a trojan horse.

I'd definitely love to do a major video on Tartessos. Nuragic civilization has also been in draft plants - possible for next year.

@@WanaxTV Tartessos has become a major talking point here in Spain over the past couple of years. Muy Historia published a special edition about it this time last year, following the discoveries at Casas del Turuñuelo, which coincided with a major exhibition at the regional archaeological museum in Alcalá de Henares. They managed to incorporate the carved faces that they had unearthed, which I was fortunate to see.

@@richardcook5919 That’s great. Could you forward me the link for that? I will research. Thanks!

It's believed that the bronze-age pre-Tartessians had long-standing trade links with the Aegean, which must have been widely known about throughout the eastern Mediterranean long before the first Phoenician expeditions.

@@WanaxTV Just emailed you the links.

Appreciate it. I imagine that some kind of memory of the Hittites would've been present at least within the first few generations of Greeks post Bronze Age collapse. And then it possibly got lost among all the myths and centauries of oral tradition.

@@WanaxTV my theory , which partially is from following your channel, is that the Greeks HATED the Hittites. They wanted control of that area and didn't care what they needed to do to take it over. They supported Piyamaradu in much the same way that the USA supports "freedom fighters" that align with their interests. Once they saw how well it worked they started supporting more groups against the Hittites and the cities of Western Anatolia. But then something happened , an eco disaster that caused crop failures. The crop failures in turn means the Greeks can't pay their "freedom fighters", aka the sea people. The Sea People then turn on the Greeks "hey we can beat these guys in Anatolia we can beat the Greeks too" and that's how the Bronze Age Collapse comes into being. and then like I said elsewhere , they hated the Hittites so much that they wrote them out of history. They didn't want anyone to know that another group controlled that area. The Bible remembers the Hittites but the Iliad doesn't. But the Bible doesn't mention that Egypt was in control of Canaan when "Exodus" took place so they fled Egypt to go to Egypt? In both cases that information might be inconvenient for the composers so it is omitted from the story.

The amazons lived around the same area Kaskans ruled at that time.

@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 the Hittites also shaved their beards and had long hair. The Achaeans would say they were soft or degenerates. I know I could be 100% wrong but I think my theory does have some merit.

The amazons seem to have more connections to the scythian women instead of the hittites

Appreciate it! It's a great topic to discuss.

Thanks for the input Odysseus. That's a great reference. Homer has Halizones being from Alybe., but Pliny's reference for Halys river and "vast city Attusa" are very telling. I wouldn't rule them out.

@@WanaxTV True indeed! I wouldn't rule out that all these names got intertwined in the memories of people with time. Especially by the time of Pliny.

Agreed. Hittites are recorded as meddling into Trojan (Wilusan) affairs during the reign of Tudhaliya IV (1245-1215 BC). There might've been a smaller conflict prior to that, but Troy was clearly still standing well after 1250 BC. Mycenaeans appear to have lost control of Miletus during Tudhaliya's reign, and Tudhaliya attempted to block their trade with the Assyrians. By 1194 BC, the situation is MUCH different. Hittites are fighting for their life in central Anatolia, scrambling reinforcements from Ugarit, Alashiya; Hattusa is getting destroyed and Hittite empire ends shortly afterwards. Troy VIIa is also destroyed by 1190-1180 BC. Hittites clearly wouldn't have been able to provide any meaningful help at that time.

i always wondered if the pellagasians werent connected to the cyclades civ

@@cal2127 - Unclear: the Cycladic culture's ethnicity is most mysterious. Their figurines seem to have some similitudes with contemporary Iberian ones but that doesn't necessarily imply ethnic identity (interaction would be enough).

Thanks for the input. When it comes to Pelaagians it’s very difficult to pinpoint who they were, and whether they referred to any specific tribe/people or just more broadly to the Neolithic and/or other groups of Bronze Age Aegean. I’m not sure if and to which degree they were related to Tyraenians/Etruscans simply due to lack of concrete evidence. What does seem to be somewhat clear is that Pelasgians were not native to Crete, but incomers just like Achaeans. They are clearly differentiated from indigenous Cretans such as Eteocretans and apparently Kydones. As for the Hittites, it’s once again difficult to construct anything with certainty post 1190/1180BC. Suppiluliuma II reigned from 1207 BC to at least fall of Hattusa (1180/1190 BC) and possibly shortly afterwards in a rump territory (IF he survived Hattusa’s fall). He was in a war against western coalition of Lukla, Mysia, Wiyanawanda, Tamina, Ikuna - which he claimes to have defeated, but that’s very questionable. He also claims to have defeated Tarhuntassa which is more plausible. Then he furthers claims a sea-battle victory at the coast of Alashiya which is once again questionable. Hittite allies at the time are Ugarit and Alashiya. We know that at one point in the war c. 1190 BC, Ugarit’s troops are in the land of Hatti defending the Hittites, and Ugarit’s ships are in the land of Lukka presumably waging war. At that time Ugarit itself is undefended. Alashiya’s king is pleading to Ugarit for help, eventually both kingdoms are destroyed by sea attack. It’s possible that Suppiluliuma’s naval “victory” was actually an effort to save Alashiya which ultimately failed (we do know that from this point on Cyprus is settled by the Greek colonists). It is safe to say that by 1190 BC, Hittites are heavily on the defensive, shortly before Hattusa itself is destroyed. By 1179 BC, Hattusa, Ugarit and Alashiya are all already gone, being referred to in the past tense by the Egyptians as having been destroyed by the Sea Peoples. Sea Peoples (Peleset, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denyen and Weshesh) were already in Amurru at that time or slightly earlier, getting ready to attack Egypt. So, I would say that it’s entirely possible that Hittites would send either very little or no help to Troy if we go by the 1194-1184 BC dating for Trojan war. As for dating of Phrygian migration to Asia, it’s hard to pinpoint with just circumstantial evidence. I’d say considering that Phrygians were initially scattered into multiple groups (Sangarius, Ascania, Acmonia, Pessinus, Dascylion etc), it’s possible that some of them were already in Asia Minor prior to Trojan war. Homer pinpoints virtually all geographic locations and political entities of Late Bronze Age Aegean with striking accuracy. Some of those locations/kingdoms wouldn’t have been possible for somebody in 800 BC to pinpoint without having access to some kind of information about the situation in 1200 BC. Also, Homeric Mysia and Hittite sources “Masa” seem to cover considerably larger area in Late Bronze Age than Classical Mysia. Perhaps some Phrygians/Bryges already moved into some parts of that area in Late Bronze Age? Mysians were believed to be related/connected to both Phrygians and Lydians so perhaps it’s possible that there were some Phrygian settlements in the area by 1200 BC, which could’ve just fallen under “Masa” or another neighboring regions as far as Hatti were concerned. Just a plausible theory.

@@WanaxTV - Sure what you say sounds plausible and in some cases almost certain. Homer probably had a very good oral source but also four centuries of distance to the events, so some confusion should be unavoidable. Imagine recalling the 30 Years' War only from oral history when I can barely recall the details without checking Wikipedia... 😅 I totally concur with the Pelasgians not being native to Crete but arrived with the Greco-Thessalian (proto-Dorian) invasion that you mentioned in an older discussion we had. What I see no reason to think that they were in Asia, where related Tyrsenian peoples would have been (even in Troy itself surely) but were surely distinct enough to go by other names and not be confused just as we don't confurse Latins and Samnites, Italics and Celts, Balts and Slavs, French and Spaniards, etc. To me the reference to Phrygians and Pelasgians clearly implies European pops allied to Troy, not just these two: Thracians and Paeonians are also mentioned, suggesting that from Thessaly northwards all were hostile to the Achaean quasi-empire. Maybe there were conflicts in Thessaly as well but they are just not mentioned in the Illiad, which is absolutely focused on the siege of Troy and no or barely mentions any related battles that could have happened elsewhere in the same broader war context. Suppiluliuma II or his son Tudhaliya V (I find the argument for his existance compelling, although he was surely a very weak terminal Labarna) were definitely the ones involved in this war and its catastrophic aftermath. Eurypylos ("broad gate") could well be Suppiluliuma himself (-pylus = - piluliuma?) and indeed Telephos ("distant light") sounds like Tudhaliya (his father). If so, taking Homer literally, Suppiluliuma died in the in the final stage of the Trojan siege, leaving a weak Tudhaliya V to fence off the aftermath (Sea Peoples and presumed Phrygian "land people" attacks of c. 1178 BCE -- you say 1179, Clyde says 1177, whatever) and failing miserably. Next we know is that Tiglath-Pileser I of Assyria defeated the Mushki (Phrygians) in Southern Anatolia c. 1160 BCE at a time when Kuzi-Teshub (a relative of Suppiluliuma II) reigned in Karkemish, first as viceroy then as "great king" (dates unclear but independence must be directly related to the collapse and destruction of Hattussa). Ah!, and also those tablets from Ugarit that say "my chariots are in the west, my ships are in Lycia...", indicating some sort of war going on in the West before "the west" landed on the beaches of Syria with at least seven ships; clearly the Hittites and vassals were trying to either help Troy or to contain the aftermath of its fall. Definitely (I understand) the Hittites must have been involved in the Trojan War one way or another and the Phrygians were involved in various conflicts in Asia Minor, to what they owe their later temporary success as historical kingdom (plus expansion into Armenia). One of the causes of the weakness of the Hittites may have been the previous Sea Peoples coalition of c. 1208 BCE, which was at least participated by the Hittites (Kheta) and probably led by them. The chronology is a bit confusing but I'd say that Arnuwanda III (brother and predecessor of Suppiluliuma II) tried to kickstart his reign with a daring attack on Egypt and failed miserably, dying in battle (or maybe palace coup?) Pop History treats the Sea Peoples as essentially the same kind of roaming barbarians without much distinction but in fact they were not barbaric at all (but part of the civilizational area of the LBA Eastern Mediterranean, mostly sedentary and generally as civilized as civilization got in those days) and they formed two clearly different coalitions: one prior to the Trojan War, led by the Hittites, and another in its aftermath, led by the Greeks. I concur that Mysia was surely a larger country than in historical times but I don't see how can you relate them to both Phrygians (from Europe, related to Greeks and more distantly to Western Indoeuropeans) and Luwians (related to Hittites and Lycians and from a totally different branch of Indoeuropeans, the first one to break apart, probably via Maykop and Kura-Araxes cultures, crossing into Asia via the Caucasus and not the Balcans). I guess that you go by Strabo's notion of the Mysian language being intermediate between Phrygian and Lydian, however that's not solid linguistics (English is not a mix of Frisian and French: it's Germanic... with strong French influence), and Athanaeus claimed it was related to Paeonian instead (which is not very helpful because we know almost nothing of Paeonian either). The Mysian language could have even shifted in that period, even if they retained some ethnic uniqueness.

@@LuisAldamiz I don't see Phrygians as necessarily being related to Bronze Age Mysians/Masa ethnically and linguistically. It could've been just centuries of living side by side that they adopted enough vocabulary and customs for ancient Greek authors to make such observation. Agreed with your last sentence. If you take a look at the Bronze Age Anatolia map, the area between Lake Ascania and Sangarius river would probably be the spot of Phrygian early settlement. Both Ascania and Sangarius were mentioned by Homer as two Phrygian entities sending troops to Troy (Ascanians led by Phorcys and Ascanius, and Sangarian Phrygians led by Asius, son of Dymas). Ascania-Sangarius area was also clearly outside the Hittite influence area throughout Bronze Age, and Hatti made no references on who exactly inhabited that land. Also, Bryges (according to ethnonyms and toponyms at least) apparently inhabited a much larger area spanning from Epidamnos on the Adriatic coast, to Lychnitis (Ohrid) lake, to areas in Pelagonia, Macedon and Chalkidiki. It's hard to pinpoint a date on their migration, but they were likely pushed out by Illyrians from the north, and Macedonians from the south at some point, resulting in small scattered pockets of the Bryges in those areas. I would assume (a lot of speculation here) that Illyrians were inhabiting central Albania since at least Late Bronze Age, with their hypothetical push southwards displacing Bryges and resulting in the Late Bronze Age movement to Ascania/Sangarius in Asia Minor. Just a whole lot of speculation on my part here.

It's possible and likely that Keteioi were the Mysians. However, there are several things to consider while exploring possible Hittite involvement: (1) Mysians were already mentioned by Homer separately from the Keteioi (2) Homer himself doesn't explicitly equate Keteioi with Mysians (3) Similarities between Keteioi - Khetti - Hatti (4) Similarities between Telephus and Telipinu (5) Possibility of historical memory of Keteioi diverting into another identity over centuries of oral tradition and myths But this all could be just stretching it too far. Still a nice theory to discuss.

​@@WanaxTVmaybe the Mysians had their own anatolian kingdom during the late bronze age and they maybe stole the title of Telepinu from the Hittites?

The Hittite’s could have been the Trojan War Ethiopians, but we are not certain. And the Amazons were likely Scythians or a neighboring group north of the Black Sea

this is an awesome thought , maybe the relief efforts are all Hittites.I like the idea of them not IDing the Hittites and just saying "an army came from somewhere" . My theory is the Greeks hated the Hittites so much that they wrote them out of history and that perhaps the Amazons are the Hittites depicted in an insulting way as "an army of women". The Hittites did shave their beards and have long hair.

I think Aethiopians are mentioned in myth about Perseus as people living south of Egypt. Egypt was trading with lands down the Red Sea and they knew about Subsaharan Africans.

phos means, but Tele means sbd related to long distance (ex: Telemachos means the one who fights far away,a name clearly meaning Odysseus,who was fighting abroad, telephone, everyone knows what it's a device sending voice far away).

Hittites were Indo-Europeans, that's why the resemblance and relevance of their names to Greek names and language.

Did those Celtics worship Bird God?

Mysia predates moesia in the balkans,moesia was a name invented and used by the romans

First give your source

@@sgeosg : Well, that is known, that is not known only in the West.

@@bakimc4722 so you dont know nothing

@@sgeosg : Those are the facts, and now that you don't know three is your problem 😀

@@southepirote7676 when all this was happening albanians were living in caves and hanging in trees

@@athanasiosdagklis8927 Yes and Greeks were living in the future with flying cars like the Jetsons 😂

@@southepirote7676 you aren’t funny nor educated

Both Greeks and Albanians have betrayed their heritage. The old gods are no longer worshipped with Greeks and Albanians following religions from the Middle East, revering not Zeus, Apollo or Heracles but a Judean carpenter and an Arab merchant.

@Nom_AnorVSJedi Since when the tribes from the Caucasus where Albania was located, who came in the Balkans during the Medieval period, have anything to do with the ancient Greek religion. Anyway the Greeks had abbandoned the Dodecatheon, long time before Christ came, since Alexander's campaign, with the introduction and worship of many Egyptian and Eastern deities by the Greeks, like Serapis, Mithras etc...

The myceneans who participated were greeks 😊

@@wankawanka3053 Sure Buddy , Bulgars also went to war with the Romans since the Thracians did 😅

Sorry, in my volume of the Odyssey, even in the Iliad, i can't find your quote. Have you checked the numbers?

@@fiktivhistoriker345 teribly sorry for the typo, rapsody called Nekyia is book 11. Verses are correct. Editing my comment accordingly and thanks for the remark!!