Did Sauron have a successor? 

Sauron wasn't exactly a named "successor" to Morgoth either. He's just one of the few lieutenants who survived the war of wrath and was able to get the orcs back in line again.

Can't help but imagine the post-Sauron turmoil that must have followed in Rhûn, Harad or Khand, where Sauron was possibly worshiped as a god for thousands of years. Whole societies crumbling, religious castes destroyed, rival warlords and politicians competing for power, and simple folk trying to get by and coming to terms with a completely new world... Probably would be more interesting than whatever Amazon's making is all I'm saying.

Could be a fun setting for a shadow of war game. Fighting against other warlords to gain control of Mordor. You could customize your own warlord and build your own fortress. Obviously it’s against lore, but it would still be a fun setting.

Sauron didn't "need" a successor. Sauron's fight against Arda and even Eru Illuvatar himself was not on the premise of "good versus evil " -- Sauron, himself, saw himself not as a force of evil, but rather as a force of *order.* In Sauron's mind, his fight was always *to establish order* in Arda. When it came to the vast multitude of races that inhabited Arda, he had an incredibly strong disposition for 1 race in particular: Men. Orcs weren't "his" -- they were baggage from Morgoth's era that were left scattered across Middle Earth. But *Men* -- easy to persuade, eager to serve, and unendingly loyal after only a little effort -- were the ideal race to carry the banner of Sauron. Sauron's grand design was to eliminate the "free races" of Arda (or what little remained of them), and for Man to be the predominant intelligent species on Arda afterwards, with himself as their lord and god. As the 3rd Age develops, Sauron's drive to actively destroy the other races diminishes, as he sees that they're *already* starting to die off (or, in the case of the Elves, "fade") on their own -- all he'd have to do is wait. So, his goals pivoted from genocide across Arda to merely conquering lands and kingdoms within it, as he knew that his plan of seeing the "lesser races" wiped out would come to pass regardless. The closest thing he would have to successor would have been Sarumon -- though "successor" here is less accurate than a "business partner." Sarumon would have likely, in time, grown to conspire against Sauron for the sake of his own desires; Where Sauron's primary drive was to impose order, Sauron's primary drive was "*self-enrichment*" -- he would serve Sauron only until there was no further benefit for him to do so, at which point he would have likely tried to usurp Sauron. As the 3rd Age ends and the 4th Age -- the Age of Man -- begins, Sauron's work of establishing a regime of oppressive order across Arda would be self-fulfilling; In Tolkien's limited writings about the 4th Age, he even goes on to tell us as much -- the Light and Magic of the earlier ages has all but diminished and, with it, the wonder and freedom of those ages as well. In place of the light, The Age of Man has instead a shadow that looms over all of Arda -- but not the shadow of some great foe, but rather the shadow inherent in *all* Men -- the same all-consuming desire to establish violent, oppressive order. Even without his hand or influence, Sauron's wishes had come to pass.

I thought there was a passage inserted by Tolkien (right around the fall of the tower of Barad-Dur) indicating that Sauron did indeed exert some unifying, possibly even telekinetic, and/or possessive power over his minions in addition to their general fear of him as shown by their immediate dispersal into chaos and confusion upon Sauron’s ultimate demise

For an immortal, everlasting (at least since he was created) being there is clearly not important to choose a successor. The only way you will loose power is, your kingdom looses ... What is there to rule? He knew he was immortal, and maybe he did not think he would loose in the way he did when the ring was destroyed.

Orks were more than fed up with the big bosses. They just wanted an honest life, plundering villages with a few good mates

I think a plausible possibility would be successor Kingdoms like after Alexander's death, with Sauron's former territories being divided up between his strongest Generals, each holding an uneasy truce with each other until they deemed the time was right to stab one of the others in the back. This would also suit Elessar because divided, none of them could hope to challenge the might of Gondor, leaving him with only occasional raids to deal with, as opposed to another war.

There is also no need for the successor to still remain in northern Mordor. Only Sauron had benefits of being there because he could use the dark powers of Mount Doom. That mountain was a remnant of Melkor's power in the world.

Sauron wasn't actually "destroyed." The One Ring was destroyed, and so Sauron lost the greatest part of his power. But he continued to exist, and may possibly have retained enough power to influence weaker minds and weaker beings/spirits to do his bidding. He wouldn't have been able to become a mighty "dark lord" again, but might still have been a significant force for evil and malice in the world. And there were other evil beings around (possibly balrogs/maiar). And what about the Mouth of Sauron? In the film Aragorn decapitates him but in Tolkien's writings his fate is not specified.

Morgoth is still out there in the void, btw.

Interesting question, but obviously hierarchies would need to form on their own for people to keep eating and not being enslaved by eachother. Sauron was an absentee overlord for a whole lot of time and his followers were able to get by, they would easily revert to the status quo of trying to bring him back.

What I’ve noticed was majority of Men of the West greatest foes were not elves, dwarves, or even orcs. They were other Men. While Men have been shown to be easily corrupted/swayed, Men had also been able of doing extreme feats of change even without the traits of immortality and magic. Look at Isildur. He defeated Sauron with a broken sword. He also cursed an entire realm of men for breaking their oaths. And by actions of his own death, started the domino effect of events which saw Sauron’s ultimate defeat. The Will of Men was Sauron’s successor - a embodiment of order by conquest, either by sword or peace. It only required his death

I always thought the most obvious "continuation" of the story would be the arising of a Balrog. I figured 500 to 1000 years after Aragorn took the throne when both he and his son had long since passed on, eventually Gondor & Arnor would once again slip away as is always the case with human nature and empires. No, there's no logical progression from Sauron to the Balrog as a successor, but more of just the arising of a new immortal dark lord. Peter Jackson's portrayal of Balrog's as basically dumb overpowered beasts is so far off the mark. They too are Maia just like Sauron. To me a story that would be great that differs from Tolkien's abandoned future tale he had started would be one simply titled "Shadow Rising in the East". A new dark lord rises, and eventually you learn it's a Balrog. You could then throw in (finally) Alatar and Pallando as main characters. We could at last explore the far east of MIddle-Earth, and the mountains with Mithril there too, so there at least is the foundation for a new tale.

Excellent video!

Great information thank you for inlightingThings I never thought of however somewhat complicated

Harry Turtledove's Videssos Cycle began as Tolkien fanfic, based on the idea that the Witch King returned, in the Fourth Age. Which LOTR leaves as an open possibility: "Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world." When Turtledove returned to his unpublishable teen-aged effort, he broke from Middle Earth, placing his misplaced Roman Legion in a fantasy counterpart to the Byzantine Empire, and the Witch King became Rhavas.

Firstly, Sauron would not have had an appointed successor, for the reasons stated in the video, plus I doubt that Sauron would have trusted anyone that he did not directly control (i.e. the Ring Wraiths) to have such power. This potentially leaves a number of lieutenants who may have survived the destruction of Sauron, though it is doubtful that they would have a clear leader, therefore there would probably be a period of civil war, complicated by the Free Peoples hunt for any such people. It is noted at the end of Lord of the Rings that the forces of Gondor and Rohan campaigned for years in the early Forth Age to root out those still loyal to Sauron. Mordor it's self would not be an option for any would be successor, being too close to Gondor and therefore closely watched, plus the slaves who had worked the fields of Nurn had been freed by Aragorn and given that land for their own. Therefore I think that any potential successor would not rise out of the ruins of Mordor, but rather from either: 1) an orc chieftain from Moria, Gundabad or the likes, though it will take them time to re-build their strength after the battles that ended the Third Age, plus time to subjugate other orc tribes to follow them. 2) a human leader from either the far east, beyond the Sea of Rhun, or the far South. Looking at a Genghis Khan type leader who can unite various tribes and peoples. Again it will take time to replace the losses from the battles that ended the Third Age, plus time to either form alliances or take surrounding lands, before they could rival the Gondor/Rohan alliance. I doubt that any such successor would have the command of all that Sauron commanded, most likely either an orc commanding orcs and maybe trolls, or a human commanding human troops. Where it is inferred that some dwarfs fought for Sauron, I doubt that they would have command of an non-dwarfs, and therefore they probably would not have the numbers to be a threat to the Gondor/Rohan alliance. The exception might be a half-orc, who could command the loyalty of both orcs and men. Though it would take some doing to get to a position of authority in both cultures. Overall, I would not see such a successor arising during the reign of Aragorn, rather being a problem for Aragorn's own successors.

Like Morgoth before him, preparation for defeat was unthinkable and would have required "caring" about followers after his defeat. Neither Sauron nor Morgoth cared about their followers in any way to prepare for defeat. "If I'm gone, screw them" is the narcissist's way and those who want to control all of Creation, remake all Creation in their own image, and/or challenge the Creator are, by definition, narcissists.

As Gandalf said in the movie "There's only one Lord of the Rings, and he does not share."

I might even go Further and say you can't even use the examples from the Third age of the people attacking Gondor and allies because they where all likely pushed too attack, supported by Sauron as well. Without him in the background pulling the strings and plotting I dare at least half of groups were never have even bothered with Gondor. And any successor would not last long, King Elissar would soon see to their end. He did campaign against Rhun and Harad in his reign after, so who knows maybe he was knocking down some wannabe Saurons.

I think a videogame should be designed around this premises; trying to become a new dark lord in some way, one or another, through a mixture of RPG and RTS elements would be pretty cool.

I think Tom bombadil would be the next in line. That’s why he helped the hobbits because he foresaw the destruction of sauron and his own rise to power. Ladies and gentlemen I present you with the next dark lord Tom bombadil. Bright blue his jacket, his boots are yellow, but his heart is pitch black. Muahahahha

By very loose definitions, his successor was simply men. Tolkien hints that the world today is the distant and perhaps alternate future of his world, and since men have done their share of Sauron-like things in our time, I think they fit the bill.

thanks for naming the artists.

The Witch King was supreme commander of his army, so that's probably the closest thing he had. Sauron was immortal and -- for all he knew -- invincible, so appointing someone to take his place after a death he would never experience would probably be pointless.

In the 80's and 90's I played a fair amount of MERP. I focused on the 2nd age because I was deep into the Silmarilion. Of course the players grumbling became near mutiny and I had to run 3rd age. I moved the clock faster and faster until the One Ring was destroyed (take THAT players!) I used a secretive and distributed clutch of Black Numenorians which fled into the east and contrived a rod which allowed time to pass slowly for its master. I also leaned into the gradual dissipation of magic which affected everyone universally. As the players engaged in tasks of reconstruction and hunting down orcs, Trolls and minor dragons in the "clean up", they began to uncover covens, canals and evidence of a successor power. Slowly and methodically I won the players over and drew them in deeper and deeper. Fun video, thanks broham!

Didn't Sauron create a religious synagogue based around him as the central deity in the East and thus there would be secret councils and theological system of elite men who would continue on his doctrines?

Hi, i have a kind of related question. What happend to dead Balrogs? We dont see them returing to Middle-Earth as Sauron, nor there is any mention of them in Valinor. Are they in the Void with Morgoth?

Darth Gandalf! I subscribed for the name alone!

Sauron's successor was Mankind.

But there certainly were creatures left behind who could take over. There were other balrogs hidden deep within the Earth. Any one of them could have come out and taken over. And each were also angelic beings on part with the Istari and Sauron. And I cannot remember if Smaug was the last of all dragons, or if there could be others living in far away lands. The orcs and goblins all had their tribal leaders, and I would assume they would continue to do so after the fall of Sauron. Mirkwood still had a giant spider infestation and the elves were leaving. So the happy ever after ending we got was not shared by all.

Very interesting, thank you

Time is not so much an issue if a successor can create a dynasty, a Black Numenorean could found a new line of kings each of which could easily rule for a century or more. Orcs may be immortal and simply die young to their violent nature. There are also 3 Balrogs unaccounted for and possibly some dragons left as well.

I guess the east and south after Sauron's downfall would have looked like the former soviet states in the 1990's or Latin America after the collaps of the Spanish empire or - maybe this is the best comparison - Western Europe after the fall of Rome. In fact it took 300 years after the fall of Rome before the Frankonian empire emerged as new power ordering Western Europe - for a brief period in time. Afterwards Carl the Great's death it took another 100 years before Germany, France and England stabelized as new Kingdoms. Therefore, I kinda imagine Rhun, Mordor and the South to look like that after Sauron's fall.

Fun vid. Thanks

Will you do a video about the Fall of Numenor? I know the book doesn't add any new content, but I'm curious if it's akin to HoME, in the sense that it includes multiples drafts for the same stories, or is it more similar to consolidated books so to speak like The Children of Húrin.

Leaving aside the LOTRO interpretation, which I've played many times and think very well wrotten I'd expect the most likely organised leadership would come from Umbar with its long historical opposition to Gondor, potential core of Men of Black Numenorean descent and while the Corsairs have been largely destroyed I have always seen them as the "useful fools" of the rulers of Umbar.

I can feel a potential Sequel that I would very much like to see.

In Harad, it was probably the Heir to the Chieftan that Theoden Killed at the Pelennor Fields

lord of the rings online is amazing i cant wait for before the shadow :)

i have always liked the idea that the Mouth Of Sauron fled to some far place and built a new Empire

Who's left thats supernatural enough? Well, Shelob and the barrow wights, for sure. (But I doubt they could marshall the forces of Sauron) Other possibilities that could amass forces include: a young dragon somewhere, a first age vampire and possibly another (sleeping) Balrog.

The unfinished sequal to Lotr mentions an unknown dark lord that would appear a few decades after Sauron's demise, and will lead cults at a few kingdoms such as Gondor. Perhaps it is a human, perhaps it is an elf that turned out like Eol the Dark elf, Perhaps it is Saruman's spirit that came back to middle earth and has not return to Valinor

I almost clicked away when you mentioned the LotR videogame. It's like mentioning a Mel Gibson movie in a scholarly biblical video.

There is scope for a sucessor in cannon, since its stated many spirits were drawn to Morgoth before the 1st age, not all wpuld have been balrogs and not all wpuld have been trapped in statues outside minas morgul or cirith ungol, i imagine many were senior leadership and functionaries in his aparstus, i imagine one or two shuch entites exisitong a viceroys in Rhun and Khand to ensure Saurons will was enflrced and long term goals achived in his absence, so technically one lf these cluld habe risen to power, or perhaps imstigated an internal power strugle ie the power in Rhun amd Khand fighting for dominion in the east before moving west in a fictional 4th or 5th age

So then I wonder, if morgoth didn't name sauron as a successor, would that mean any other miar could have taken the title as dark lord? Assuming that sauron went with his master to face judgment before the valar too.

If Sauron had, whether he personally appointed them or not, I think it would've either been a Black Numenorian (most likely the Mouth of Sauron) or an Easterling with enough power and influence in his own land.

I don't think Sauron would have ever considered the matter of succession as he didn't think he would ever need to and probably wouldn't have cared. I don't think there was anyone who could have established a realm inside Mordor without being destroyed by the Gondor and Rohan quickly. I also think there would have been a great deal of internecine warfare among the surviving groups that would have probably prevented anyone from Sauron's former vassals from becoming dominant. King Elessar's foreign policy would have also aided this as I think he would have established diplomatic ties with those who wanted to go a different way following Sauron's demise and used military force against those who did not. It probably would have taken at least a couple of centuries for a new threat to arise and that most likely would have been in the far east of the continent.

Naming a successor would imply possible defeat, which Sauron didn’t think was possible 💍🌋🤷🏾‍♂️

what's the name of the background song?

I wonder if Saruman could have eventually become a new Dark Lord if he hadn't been murdered by Wormtongue.

The Balrogs would be a good candidate for Sauron/Morgoth’s succession but I doubt they would have any drive to take command. They only serve Morgoth.

would be a cool non canon game, where you try to restore the forces of mordor and invade middle earth now that Gandalf and most of the elves are gone to Valinor. You would also be opposed on both sides both by Rhun not wanting a new Tyrant and Gondor protecting the free ppl.

Why would immortal beings even think to name a successor?

Yeah, it was… Sauron Jr. Family business, y’see

One of the Blue Wizards could have taken a walk on the dark side, or both working together.

people trying to fill the void left by Sauron and rally the orcs and his human servants again could have been a nice setup for the New Shadow I suppose

I've always thought that Saruman could have been his oportunistic successor, obviously if given the chance.

Well, there's always Saruman. Not a successor as such, as he was always working towards his own aims, but if you needed someone to fill a power vacuum ......... Stripped of his power, he still managed to entice a band of ruffians to his banner, so he must have had some residual influence. So now we come to the thorny question of why he went west ? There was nothing there for him. He certainly would not have been allowed back into the Undying Lands, and he'd have had an extremely unpleasant reception in Lindon. So why West ? Centuries before, he had travelled extensively in Rhun, and possibly the other realms in the East. Men dwelt there, who were more subject to his persuasion than Elves or Dwarves. If he still had any vestige of his former power, this might have been his best bet. Even if he only managed to carve a small region for himself, this would surely have been preferable to having the other races as near neighbours. Just how powerful he might have become is conjecture, but he is probably one of the stronger candidates for amassing a fighting force. There was nothing wrong with his organisation and capabilities. After all, he'd already built one army pretty much from scratch. Why not another ? And does he still possess his extended lifespan ? The only difficulty he might face is if either of the two Blue Wizards were still alive.

I always thought that an Ungoliant return in the 4th age would have been quite something 😄.

The most obvious successor is the witch king who was the ruling figure of evil during the third age destroying the kingdom of Anor and leading the attack against the free people but he was killed so I think it should have been a nazgul

I stopped playing LotRO shortly after Riders of Rohan and never made it to West Rohan... I'm kinda curious about the storyline, but at the same time I dislike the changes made to the gameplay so much that I don't know if I can slog through it. (Main annoyance being the skill trees.) Anyway, after rereading Silmarillion and looking at others' depictions of Sauron before he became a dark lord, I've found myself fascinated with his character and wonder how someone as chaotic and unorderly as Melkor managed to corrupt Mairon.

The way you have to look at this, it would be those who would not be destroyed by the ring's destruction. Candidate number one, Saruman! Powerless except for his voice. But, Saruman still was capable of evil! Candidate number 2, the Mouth of Sauron. If he survived the downfall of Morder, he would be a likely choice.

What if, just if.....Maleficent is actually Saurons long lost child from his scandalous affair with Thuringwethel?!?!? 😱😱😱 GAAAAASP!!!

Sauron is immortal and inhumanely megalomaniacal. He didn't ever imagine he would need a successor and he wouldn't want one anyway. And there's your answer.

Just a question about the Nazgul. Were they really bound to the one ring through their own rings? I thought that after the human rings had worked their magic and made the Nazgul into the wraiths we know them as, that the rings were then taken away by Sauron. I understood that although the Nazgul served Sauron, they did so willingly and with their own minds, without such control. Did they really die because the one ring was destroyed? Would love more details on this.

I don't think the Book said anything about Orodruin collapsing. I remember it saying, "And Orodruin reeled." Narchost and Carchost, as well as Cirith Ungol, were built by the Men of Gondor. Yes, one (a successor) could have risen, as Sauron rose to replace Morgoth.

He owned so much of the world, Middle Earth seems an after thought. Man had issues. It feels like he owned four to five times as much as he died fighting for.

well yeah. Balbrand, his brother in law, took over.

Should have been titled: Did Sauron have middle management?

Jerry from HR took over

Didnt think Shelob died and she was so powerful. What if she moved further south and could have been worshipped

yes

You know, Tolkien actually had plans for a sequel trilogy to LOTR, but he ultimately decided to leave the story as is. We don’t know much about this trilogy that never was, other than that the first book would have been called “The New Shadow”, that the story itself would be set over 1000 years after the end of LOTR, and that it would involve the Blue Wizards in some capacity. And there you have your successor, or should I say successors, to Sauron. The blue wizards were corrupted to his service in the 3rd age, are both immortal angels, and were off in the far east when Sauron fell.

Plot twist; Elrond was Agent Smith all along, using the Fellowship to corrupt his biggest nemesis; The Neo ring.

Three words “Dagor-Dagor-Lad”

No successor necessary... he's for all practical purposes immortal.

The only possible way for a successor to emerge, would someone who would be an avatar/prophet/priest of Melkor/Morgoth

Something tells me that Tolkien’s cancelled sequel The New Shadow might’ve touched up on this if he’d have continued with it

Yeah Amazon is Sauron’s successor. 😊

His succesor was supposed to be Saruman. That was the corrupted apprentice as he once was.

"He does not share power"

To be fair, this is what the New Shadow was seemingly about. Sauron´s "successors" living the shadows and forging secret cults, which is exactly how any sort of successorship would have to be done. Moving in the shadows and slowly corrupting the hearts of men. Tolkien said it himself, in those excerpts that the hearts of men are quickly satiated with the premise of peace. Not to mention that he does make the implication that, unlike Morgoth, Sauron isn't fully banished beyond the circles of the world and remains around as a spirit, whispering into pliable ears and corrupting hearts.

Haradrim and easterlings continue to fight to the death......

Sauron's successor the first time he died was the Witch King. But he's dead now.

My Favorite Character The Witch King Of Angmar is most logical before his death!

Did Sauron have a succesor? Yes. Little Sauron😆

Interesting video but Tolkien’s names typically had their emphasis on the the first syllable. MOR-an-non instead of Mor-AN-non and EL-es-sar instead of El-ES-sar.

What is the successor manage to craft a ring a power similar to their master but I also managed to siphon off some of more Morgoth’s power from middle earth in order to become an even greater threat than the previous Dark lords and also been super charged by the ring of power.

Neither consider having a succesor since they didnt expected or planed to lose and since they are immortal beings... Sauro just took over after his master was gone.

I suppose, the real question is, if Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant and best placed to carry on in his stead, why didn't Sauron have a lieutenant and what made him different to Morgoth in that respect?

Tolkien wrote that with every successive age the “dark lords” got weaker and weaker. Mortgoth to Sauron as an example. So the successor would have been a weaker calamity again. If you take the fact that middle earth was meant to be a mythology into our earth, that would place the likes of Hitler and Stalin as “Dark Lords” of their age.

"Always two there are."

There is the New Shadow so Tolkien did give it some thought.

he did it was one of the blue wizards but token never got to finish the tale he did not reveal himself until Saruman and Gandalf left Middle Earth he did not fear Radegast the brown

What state could grow up in Mordor's stead without sauron there and wit hthe kingdoms of Gondor and Rohan essentially forcing a demiliterization? Could a successor state, say, in Nurn, beg for trade relations in exchange for help beating back the warlords hoping for the throne? After all with Nurn's breadbasket, bothof those kingdoms could afford to do.... More.

Wait! Orcs are mortals??

a better closure of the story would be a human king hell bent on genocide to the surviving orcs which for a long time some learned to become more civil in orcish manner like thrall of warcraft. they would try to defend their homeland and became friends with human nobles who are more open minded about things and together they fought off the evil human king. after being victorious the humans and orcs finally put their grudges aside and decided to make a formal truce towards each other.

what about the bright lord? In a rpg game i ran he took up Saruons mantle. Extended video game lore but yeah