The fact that the actual staircase is completely missing from the titanic would suggest that there must have been quite a large surge of water pouring into the area for the staircase to become ripped from the floor then float up and out through the space where the dome is. The staircase's remains were never found inside the ship so it must have floated out.
Didn’t James Cameron say they ran into the same problem on the set actually? The staircase started to float unexpectedly when they flooded the set with water, so it’s likely that it floated on out of the titanic during the sinking
@@banksuvladimir Yes, there's a video where you watch behind the scenes and one of the scenes is where they flood the A deck grand staircase and the staircase floated up and pinned some of the actors against the upper wall/banister. And apparently they made the staircase from the same materials as the original, so they assumed the same thing happened in the real ship.
@@banksuvladimiryes but he forgets that the grand staircase was essentially bolted down on the Titanic, it wasn’t on his set like it was on was on the ship.
I mean, if the ceiling of the Grand Staircase was made of glass, eventually it would have caved under water pressure. Whether that water pressure was enough to make it implode while it was sinking or while it was on it's way to the bottom we cannot be sure. Since the dome of the staircase was not on the wreck, we know it had to have imploded at some point, though.
Considering the awesome weight and power of water, I would be led to believe it imploded when the water was at A-Deck height, or sometime shortly after that portion of the ship became submerged, and it almost definitely happened before Titanic hit the ocean floor.
When the Titanic returned to an even keel, the A-deck level of the Grand Staircase was still dry and the plunge happened so fast that I strongly feel Ken Marschall's painting of the Grand Staircase imploding (with most of A-deck still dry) was what actually happened.
I believe the dome over the grand staircase did implode on count of when it dipped below the surface the further it went down the more water pressure would have been too much
Archibald Gracie died in December of 1912 having never fully recovered from the shock to his system from enduring the sinking and time spent in the frigid water. He did write a book about his experiences on the ship that he was still working on at the time of his death. That book, unfinished at the time of his death, was published under the title "The Truth About The Titanic" then later revised and published as "Titanic: A survivor's Story." It may contain a lot more information, but questions will always be unanswered.
The grand staircase broke loose and started floating when they sank the set during filming. It was only held down by gravity and the crew figured it was too heavy to float. Two extras were actually pinned by it. Luckily no one was seriously injured. It almost makes me think that the real staircase broke loose and crashed through the dome from the bottom.
@YamiAlex224 - They actually reinforced it, so it would be able to survive repeated submerging. Unlike the actual ship the set was intended to be sunk and so had to be built to cope with those stresses in mind.
The original stair case on titanic was held in by a couple of fasteners and gravity. The set staircase was but to the original specs, and it sheered off the fastener and floated up. I've always wondered if that was the case for the original.
@@FirstQualityProduce Why? The original was smaller and lighter. Literally. The film made the staircase much bigger than it actually was and the room was found stripped. Other rooms found had stairs....... its clear something happened to the stairs during the trauma.
The glass covering the dome wouldn't had been very sturdy. It was designed more for looks than anything else. Though it could protect against the elements, it wouldn't had taken it long to buckle under the sheer weight of the ocean as it raised above it.
I mean if the entire massive funnel fell over when it was just a few feet under the water due to the level of water pressure, I have no doubt that that glass would have broken just as easily.
@@brentboswell1294 True, the water was. However, the interior wasn't completely filled yet so the water pressure would quickly change as the dome went under. Even if it was, the stack falling on it would had most likely destroyed it anyway.
@@thecomedypilot5894that could have been, but in the 1912 sinking, what cable gave way first? We'll never know. I definitely believe that the glass may have not broken, until the stern of the ship started going 20 - 30 knots under the ocean.
I wish I could ask you a question directly Sam! How long do you think it took for the Titanic to deteriorate? ie what would it have looked like in 1922/32/42 etc? At what stage would an explorer still have seen curtains, carpets and bedspreads etc and the wood of the decks? I'm sorry, you've got a lot on, perhaps one for the future...?Great videos btw!!!!
I'd be curious to know too but is it an easy question to answer without first hand analysis like placing a different item (like carpet) in cold salt water and leaving it over time but periodically checking on it.
@@Garsons-oq4lh presuming to have multiple decades to observe the objects degrade and to be capable of recreating the same conditions yes, It probably will take more or the majority of a human life, most of the stuff Is still there covered by the Sea deposits
I saw in another video that when the "Big Piece" was recovered in 1998, it still had some of the wood panelling that decorated the First Class cabins where it was located, but it was lost when the piece was washed, because they used pressurized water. Why they made such a crime against history preservation, we don't know, but the wood was still there.
I think the Grand staircase did implode; there is a lot of evidence to prove this (mainly because of Gracie’s testimony and some pictures of the wreck site). I have overheard Gracie’s testimony in many documentaries and honestly, his story during the disaster was certainly the most intense story that I have heard. Imagine having to go through all of that if you were in his shoes that night 😬
He had a hard life, one of his daughters had been killed in a freak elevator accident a few years earlier. Incredible he managed to write a book before he passed in December 1912.
@@brendanfoehr5086 it’s ironic that he passed away later that year and so did Titanic’s Owner J.P Morgan dying of a stroke at a resort in FL in 1913 and what’s VERY INTERESTING that Second Officer Charles Lightoller survived 2 World Wars and the 1929 Stock Market Crash 💥
@@williambinions4205 He literally did die from the lasting health effects of exposure and hypothermia from surviving all night on the overturned Collapsible B
Archibald Gracie was also the first adult Titanic survivor to die. He was diabetic, and it's believed that the aftereffects of hypothermia from his time in the frigid ocean water during the sinking led to his death in early December of 1912. Despite the fact that he only lived 8 months after the sinking, he is one of the richest firsthand sources of information on the sinking due to his being an author and historian.
One of the most heartbreaking details about his death to me is that the sinking of the Titanic was still at the forefront of his mind when he died. His last words were "We must get them into the boats. We must get them all into the boats."
The suction he may have felt could have been from the vortex created when that part of the Titanic was being submerged. I think the dome did break due to the suction that was created by the body of the ship. When we think about the part of the ship where the dome went under water, we're talking about a tumultuous current being created that can cause suction. That suction alone could bring enough pressure onto that glass (regardless of what it was made out of) and implode it, especially if the A Grand Staircase was not completely flooded. Remember that you have empty space that the water is trying to rush into in order to equalize itself as it compensates for the body of the ship. That dome could have been the path of least resistance, and nobody would have known what had hit them in that staircase if that glass shattered. I don't think the movie depicted the severity if that was the case because the reality is that the waterfall effect you saw during the movie only would have happened once the tip of the glass met the water's edge. I think the dome imploded when it was well submerged.
Imagine the effect of Cameron showing the dome completely underwater with the chandelier glowing, or looking up and seeing the ocean through the dome. Then boom and it goes black and it's just water sounds.
Your choice of thumbnail for the video has an interesting story behind it, Sam. We see Eric Braeden playing JJ Astor, of course - but Braeden was in fact rescued from the even deadlier sinking of 'Wilhelm Gustloff' as a young child in 1945. When we consider that no-one was really 100% sure *what* was about to happen when the 1997 Grand Staircase set was flooded (beyond best estimates)...take a look again at Braeden's expression as he awaits the dome imploding in a second's time. There's a lot of history, personal and maritime, in that one man right there.
Wow...so interesting!! I wonder how he felt filming that scene? And what kind of memories it brought back? If I were him, I don't think I would have been brave enough to make that movie, knowing I was going to have to film that scene. Did he discuss this in an interview? It would be so interesting to hear him talk about it. Although I find the history of the Titanic fascinating, I only watched the movie once, and it was torture, so I've never sought out stories about the making of the movie or interviews with anyone involved.
Another interesting story would be why the based on the real life John Jacob Astor (as portrayed by Eric Braeden) was depicted as being inside the flooding Grand staircase when obviously he had been out on deck (his body was recovered in relatively good condition).
@@Garsons-oq4lh I think you beat me to that comment. Water pressure would have trapped anyone in the vicinity of the Grand Staircase and they would have been carried to the bottom. As you say, Astor's body was found. It has been said that he was crushed by the falling forward funnel, although that has been debated.
@@Garsons-oq4lh Well yes, although within the film itself, that doesn't detract from the interest of the actor's story. I've also read Paul Lee's breakdown of each and every thing that 'Titanic' (1997) got wrong, and very interesting reading it is too.
It was said in the making of Titanic by James Cameron that they virtually built a replica of the ship as a set and lowered it into the water. So most of the sinking in the movie would have been an accurate depiction of how the ship really sank, including the pressure on the dome. It's also said that when the staircase flooded it was ripped from the ship hence the huge void that exists in the wreck where the staircase would have been.
And I think one of the most frightening scenes in that movie was when the ship rose up straight out of the water, people being thrown from the ship. I could only imagine how terrifying it would be to witness
I read Archie's book. It was terrible. He basically said from the moment it hit the iceberg he knew the ship was going to sink and knew there weren't enough life boats. He basically says he knew all of this before Captain Smith and Thomas Andrews. It just seemed a bit eagertistical. He didn't even see the iceberg. He just felt it and instantly knew what had happened and how severe it was in the first 30 seconds.
According to the book, "882 1/2 Amazing Answers to your Questions about the Titanic", the dome imploded shortly after the forward funnel collapsed. The authors of that book got testimonies from survivors. One survivor (Archibald Gracie) said the dome imploded and people were sucked in as the ship went further down. In the James Cameron film, it shows many people in the Grand Staircase when the dome implodes. There's no actual proof that there were passengers trapped in the Grand Staircase when the dome imploded, but there's no proof there weren't people trapped in there either. There's no way to know either way.
I just finished watching the movie again tonight. The final plunge is just so horrific to imagine. Not sure what is worse, the final plunge or the frantic floundering of survivors in the North Atlantic 2 miles deep. God rest their souls.
Probably no chance for floundering under the ocean. Water pressure would build significantly in short periods of time. Not a single compartment would have kept out that crushing water.
Well as we all know from the wreckage, there is a GIANT hole where the staircase was. Im betting that it did implode. Also many survivors also reported hearing explosions, moaning, cracking, and crashing noises within the ship. It just makes sense to me that an implosion may have caused such catastrophic damage
I completely agree! That amount of water pressure would of course break the glass and cause the dome to break due to sheer force. Ugh that scene is burned into my brain. It’s heartbreaking to think people experiencing that type of horror :(
I love your what-if and investigative videos almost as much as your timeline series. The other day I went back to an earlier video of yours and the difference in quality is amazing- you've grown so much as a creator. Thank you so much for using your time, effort, and expenses to give us this content. Your Pompeii video was very nice and I hope you'll plan to take dips into other genres of history. I know you've got a ton already planned but if you feel like doing a non-ship episode, you might find the Gimli Glider or British Airways flight 5390 interesting. Cheers from the west coast!
I also think that the dome imploded. The reason being this; in earlier stages of the sinking, water was flooding down onto lower levels from the upper levels, meaning that the lower decks didn't have time to flood before the waterline reached an entrance point on an upper level. And this was at the slow rate the Titanic was sinking in the earlier stages. So comparing the amount of time those decks had to flood to the 2-3 minutes from the point the waterline outside the ship reached the grand staircase on A deck to when the dome went under, even though the water would've had more entry points on the superstructure, I would say that its safe to assume the room wasn't completely flooded when the water reached the dome.
I think it would have since that part of the hull hadn't fully filled. Because of that, it's very likely when the grand staircase went under the water, the glass would have imploded. However, there is a chandelier thats still intact, so maybe it broke during the plunge to the bottom or when the bow hit the bottom at ~40 mph
Imho I think it's more probable that the suction Gracie felt came from the vortex after the first funnel fell. I think this makes more sense based on what he was doing at the time (helping launch Collapsible A and grabbing a fence when the ship suddenly plunged). This also line up with the fact that he didn't mention seeing the falling of the funnel. I think the dome imploded at some point, but I think that it happened a few minutes later since the ship would have needed to be very deep in the water for the dome casing to be submerged (which was approximately 15 feet above the boat deck)
In an air pocket in a sinking ship, incoming water can decrease the volume of space for the air to occupy, driving up the air pressure. A dome is weakest when pressurized from beneath. The nearby geometry of openings and whether doors were open or closed is not something I’m familiar with. However, it’s possible the dome over the central staircase in the Titanic was blown outwards.
I recently discovered your page, and I love it!!! I must say that when you said "warshed" instead of "washed" it immediately took me back to my Grandma, who grew up near Pittsburgh! I know this has nothing to do with the video, but I felt a connection when you said "warshed" im a forever follower!
I wonder if the second funnel collapsed into the housing on top of the Grand Staircase when it fell, causing the housing and the dome to get obliterated? Surely the water pressure right at the surface would not have been enough to implode the dome on its own. I think Gracie is a red herring in this portion of the story.
Gracie said he saw a whirlpool where the casing for the dome was caved in due to the weight of water then it started sucking people in. I believe the sudden rush of water from above through the glass dome lifted out and ripped apart the staircase before staircase debris floated to the surface.
I think that it is true that the Grand Staircase's dome did implode. I think the collapse of the first funnel and the plunge itself created another wave on the level of a flash flood on land. We know that flash floods are deadly and destructive and this is maybe what happened to the stairwell's dome. I guess it's another to the many mysteries of the Titanic.
Detailed video as always Sam. I saw those signs in your last video I'm so happy there for sale. Next Wednesday when I get paid I'm definitely getting the White Star line sign first and that's because the Olympic class was from White Star line happens to be my favorite. Though I am a fan of lucidania Cunard can be my second sign! Again thank you Sam you definitely got me through covid Edit: Lusitania! Got to love the speech feature
In Charles Lightoller's book, he also described a suction pulling him under (he eventually survived on the overturned lifeboat), but that suction was the vent in front of the first funnel filling up with water.
Hey I gotta say I really appreciate your energy and your mannerisms! You're incredibly engaging and you are very charismatic :) also really enjoyed the video!
So I found a video on RU-vid from the Belfast Titanic museum of an overview of the Titanic wreck on the bottom of the ocean. It goes from the bow to the stern the entire wreck. And between funnels one and two where the cover for the grand staircase dome was located there's nothing there but a big hole. So I have a pretty good feeling that the dome did implode as seen in the film. Because the structure that covered it is gone, and if you look at the edges of the hole that's left, they are bent downward.
Next time I'm visiting the Titantic I'll look for broken glass in the stairwell! It does seem very reasonable that the glass would break under pressure from to much water
The reason I feel that Gracie felt the water being sucked into the Grand Staircase is that if he jumped with the wave, he'd been carried further back towards the deck than being near where the funnel was. Also, I think that water had flooded that part of the ship where the funnel was. That was a duct to let out gas (double walled with some space but not a lot). The staircase was ripped out and then smashed to bits (it was wood after all) then the bits and pieces went the way of the other wood other than the teak planking and this is the reason that it was not found in the wreck.
The staircase was already full of water before any dome could collapse, windows of the decks were closer to the rising water level and they broke first to let the water in. The dome had a steel structure as a deckhouse on top, the roof of this structure contained some thick heavy glass panelling but they would probably leak a while before they broke, but by then the entire interior was flooded already. No one would stay in this area anyway during the sinking.
The problem about testimonies is also that memories are sometimes different as the facts... Most emotions literally changes them, making you for example "remember" more people to be seen than reality, or remembering to freeze but it was not so cold, or thinking that someone were really tall, but it was you who was a child and had the feeling the person was so tall... I think sooner or later the dome woudn't have hold the pression of the water...
Well on the ocean floor there’s a big hole in the ship right where the grand staircase was I think it did implode. Think about it you got the water pressure sitting on top of the skylight I think the pressure imploded the dome. Many witnesses said once the first funnel fell they felt the ship drop farther down really fast and I think that was because of the staircase dome imploding sucking in lots of water at a fast rate.
Wow very interesting. Ty for posting. It sure would’ve been nice if we could’ve had actual survivor testimony on this. It, it would’ve seemed logical that the grand staircase would’ve imploded.
Hello Sam, I really enjoy your videos, I love history and recently earned my Masters in Military History but I love all history. Years ago I bought a large military collection and included were a group of metal finger bowls from the Carpathia and while researching them I started getting interested in the history of the ship and of Titanic. I have watched your videos multiple times for each one. Thank you for teaching us the history the way it should be remembered. You and your videos make a difference.
The dip that caused the wave would definitely have taken that whole area underwater more rapidly than it could fill. Even the interior wheelhouse and officers quarters would have been pretty dry and the sudden dip would have put a lot of dry rooms underwater very fast. I would think the water would be raging up from below and on A-deck but there weren't a lot of holes to get in at first. The water pressure would have been the thing that was an issue and it may have been worse than the movie showed if the ship dipped under fast and the weather cover would have held the water back a bit at first. The whole area could have been underwater before the whole dome collapsed and that would have been terrifying if you were in the staircase area that was still in an air bubble.
I think it might have been the fist funnel falling that caused the big wave and the suction, as you mentioned. the hole might be of the funnel. It makes more sense. I also don't think the dome broke, since the area in the grand staircase was flooding and in order the dome to implode, the area above the dome must be under water for that pressure to break the glass. You mentioned in the video that the room might not have been flooded entirely. While I think it must have, because of the pressure of water in a deck and since many doors of the grand staricase might have been opened and windows breaking during sinking. The dome did implode (but I don't think it happened like in the movie), but after sinking entirely under water, from water pressure coming also from inside the staircase. During the movie shooting, the wood of the staris broke and showed up in the water. this might have happened maybe when the grand staircase was already under water.
We may as well go along with this as it is very plausible with compelling circumstantial evidence but can only be not proven at best. 1:25 truly amazing. The best fakery I saw was tombstones in Lincoln Cathedral that had been crafted for The DaVinci Code (partly filmed there) and used production team member's names. There is real skill there.
This has always been a hard one to guess how that huge staircase just dissappeared. But with that water pressure anything was possible. But it was built bit by bit to just be ripped out as whole as it was. So it looks as if something blew it out. As on the ship at the bottom its amazing to see where it was and that whole lot goes way down to f or g deck. A very long way down and you see other decks all around where it once was. So it seems it was blown out and off the ship even as she just went 200 feet deep down maybe.
I feel that in this case especially, reaching out to people who worked on the Cameron film might shed some light into the decision-making that went into certain choices. I have a feeling that every major event like the flooding was based on something or other- Cameron would probably be very very picky about what was depicted. (even though this means today he tends to be kind of defensive of inaccuracies). Maybe it also was inspired by the Gracy testimony?
@@Truecrimeresearcher224 The man even had the stars in the sky changed when Neil DeGrasse Tyson pointed out they were slightly inaccurate! I wonder if he wishes he could somehow update the film with what we have learned in the years since the film was made. It'd be pretty impossible to do but I imagine it goes through his head.
Great videos and content Sam. I commented before but wondered if you've heard of the HMY Iolaire disaster and if you'd consider making a video about it? Tragic losses especially when you research the story. Keep up the great work.
I would imagine the outer glass structure was meant to keep the fragile dome from damage and possible collapse in bad weather and heavy seas....therefore it would be built very strong.... If that is the case, i would think both structures would not have failed until the ship was further down 🚬🐕
Look how big the ship is in bad weather it be fine it was probably only made to withstand some rainstorms but not thousands of pounds of water sitting on top of it
@@Truecrimeresearcher224 it was also built as a weather shield, and in every depiction of the dome collapsing, it seems to collapse at any instance of water on top of it.... like less than an inch. That's not plausible.
Found your channel and love all the videos. I'm a huge nautical history fan and did a social studies fair project about the Titanic many years ago. I haven't watched all of the videos yet but I do have a suggestion. There was a stewardist on board named Violet who was actually on all 3 ships. Also would love to know where the guarantee group were when the ship sank. Great job. Keep it up.
Great video Sam love the work you do with all the research, if you got time could you please tell what happened to the 14Th life boat,I no the Carpathia picked up 13 of them. Thanks Tim.
Archibald Gracie certainly was lucky as he was between where the first funnel fell and where the second would soon follow. If he had been in any other place (I’m not a historian so I can’t say for sure) he might not have survived
It had to have imploded for the Grand Staircase to be ripped up and out of the ship since they found pieces of the oak it was made of on the surface after the ship sank. Imagine being inside when it happened and I bet James Cameron’s version is either pretty close to what they experienced before the died or spot on and that’s terrifying. When we went to the Titanic Exhibition in November (I think I included a picture of the picture of Brandon and I on the replica when I sent some mail) all I could think about was how beautiful it was and man what a waste to go to the bottom of the ocean
I also think the Grand Staircase imploded. Which would explain the suction that Gracie experienced. Until a few years ago, I didn't even realize that Titanic had a slight list to port for most of the sinking.
What I'd like to know, Sam, is once the forward grand staircase was flooded did the staircase itself pop out of the Titanic's superstructure like a champagne-cork in one piece or did it come out in pieces?
@@gearhead762 during filming yes they had one take to do the staircase scene in worry they might destroy it on the day of shooting there was so much water pressure the whole staircase just popped out and they believe that’s what happened
It likely came out in pieces. Contrary to James Cameron's idea of what happened due to what happened with the set, there was no way for the grand staircase to simply float out of the ship. Not when it was literally integrated into the ships steelwork. Contrary to what many believe, the staircase wasn't made of a single massive piece of oak, it was all part of the ships steel structure covered up by intricate wood paneling. A lot of the wood pillars in the grand staircase rooms, for instance, were there to hide steel supports, and a lot of the roof designs was to hide the steel beams of the decks above. All of this was discovered by the Titanic: Honor & Glory team in their efforts to model the ship as accurately as possible.
For what it’s worth, here’s a trim carpenter’s explanation of why neither the forward or aft Gr. Staircase structures maintained any of their solid oak railings, stringers, treads, risers, or structural piers after the sinking: Since these pieces were all carved from 10”x8” solid oak (which is very, very heavy yet also floats in water as all sealed wood does at first before it becomes completely saturated by water absorption) the oak structure was uprooted by the uplift of its own buoyancy during the rapid decent rather than riding the wreck all the way to its grave. It may surprise some folks to know that very heavy wooden things are often not bolted down during construction because they support their own weight and strongly resist movement by their own weight. Glue is often used instead of screws or nails in such applications. An example of this is the kitchen island in a typical home: you may be surprised to learn the kitchen island isn’t usually attached to the slab or floor below, but merely held in place by the weight of the stone or marble top and the heavy cabinet itself. So I propose that some or all of the very heavy pieces of railing, the balustrade around each mezzanine level where the single & double columns were, and some of the other solid oak sections (not including the treads and risers of the staircase itself) were merely glued in place and not fastened with bolts typically.
Okay here's the stupid obvious question probably been asked before: If Gracy was helping with the lifeboat his back would have been inboard. Could the "wave" he mentioned have been a result from the first funnel's collapse and he just didn't see or hear it happening? "Wave" is an oddly specific word to use. Here's my thinking: In order for AG to experience the wave high enough to wash him on the officer's quarters roof, that means a portion of that roof needed to be more or less level with the water. As we know, Titanic's first funnel collapses pretty much the moment the water touches it. It's safe to say the funnel would have fallen to the port side. The result of the funnel falling into the water would have kicked up a good portion of water also possibly accelerated by the ship now sinking faster, perhaps it enough to sweep people up and deposit them further aft, in gracy's case, above the Grand Staircase for him to feel it implode. Otherwise if his movement was more lateral he could have actually been feeling the water getting sucked into the "funnel hole". A lot depends on exactly when all this happens.
Thanks for this cool video! I’m just not sure the reason that the dome casing would break…🤔 If for some reason it did break, then the dome underneath it would probably break
The answer to if the dome imploded can somewhat be answered by event in another part of the ship. Good old boiler room 5. The iron plate riveted structure of the coal bunker in this room failed as it filled up with water. If a structure that is designed to hold many tons of coal pressing against it failed because of the weight of the water, a decorative glass structure would have failed more or less instantly. Did it happen exactly as James Cameron depicted? Probably not. The water level inside may have been higher or lower, the entire glass may have shattered all at once or may have broke apart in progressive manner as the ship sank lower. It is after all only an interpretation that was dramatised for the screen. In the extremely improbable scenario that the grand stair case was completely flooded by the time the water level on the boat deck reached it, it still would have imploded. The shape of the dome would have allowed a small amount of air to become trapped in a pocket, which then would have burst through the weak glass not long after the dome dropped below the water line, not even surviving until the final plunge.
i believe it was an implosion because if he was near the first funnel, even if he was underwater, surely he would have heard or felt it crash into the water
Wasn't Gracie one of the survivors that said the Titanic sank intact? There's also the whole Nearer My God to Thee thing, the most likely version that would've been played by the band is the Propior Deo, would an American have recognized that version of the hymn. I'm not sure if Gracie was familiar with the different versions of the hymn or not.
