Dies To Removal 16 - Magic The Gathering's Controversial Hot Topics! 

Dude, that intro with mirrored roasts of each other was hilarious.

Lol I shouldn't have laughed that hard at the A rated sleeve tear

Some Trivia on the card mechanics mentioned in this episode: R&D designed Skulk with the hope of it being an evergreen keyword. However, once put into practice, they found the design space and gameplay weren't as good as they'd hoped, so it never made it past Shadows Over Innistrad. Prowess isn't evergreen anymore. Although it worked well at first, it presented too many minor problems that, when taken together, meant it couldn't be evergreen. Protection & Landwalk were both removed because they were too "swingy" (ie. in the right matchup, they're too strong, in any other matchup, they are effectively blank text.). The return of protection was requested by Play Design (the playtesting and power-level part of R&D) to act as a safety valve on standard and limited. Testing found that the majority of players treated Shroud as if it was one-sided. They changed it to Hexproof because all attempts to fight this misunderstanding failed. For what it's worth, Mark Rosewater thinks Shroud is a better mechanic, but ensuring player comprehension is more important.

Fact: PleasantKenobi should wear suits at all times

I had a buddy in college who had a mulldrifter commander deck. It was his favorite card and he really wanted it to be the commander so we were like "sure, why not."

A few years ago tarmogoyf was at 200. I remember trading my 4 for a heavy play tabernacle. I also remember almost not doing that trade

i actually had a conversation about land being important but often too expensive, and had an idea on what might help. the idea was a land booster. it would just be a small booster that contains 5 full art basic land, 5 common lands, (gates, panorama, etc), 3 uncommon lands (scry, bounce, etc.), 1 rare/mythic land (shocks, fetch, thes, depth, etc.), and 1 foil. if not made too expensive to buy (around 4-5 bucks), i think it could help keep the prices of certain lands out of the 50 - 100 bucks range.

Prof: What do you think about protection? Vince: You should use it sparingly...

I agree with Pleasant Kanobi. fetches without fetchable duals will be fine. hell, next core set could have them, there we go we just solved the core set problem. if we printed a full 10 land cycle of relitive value and importance to all MTG formats in each core set we could have far better mana prices. I am ok with huge combo pieces being expensive, but mana should be no more than a few bucks

Am I the only one who wants that return to kamigawa legendary challenger event deck?

I disagree with the Prof here regarding the rules committee. I've seen multiple play groups that just can't come to a consensus on certain issues/cards and I think being able to fall back on the actual rules set forth by Sheldon and friends is a huge plus for these kinds of groups. My group recently did this with the London Mulligan change. Half of us wanted it, the other half didn't. The rules committee was the tie breaker and everyone has accepted it and everything is fine as a result. No resentment, no endless debates.

The chemistry between Vince and Brian is amazing. This program feels like they've been friends for decades. Great show!

... and so, with a clever introduction to a podcast, the MidAtlantic accent was rediscovered for the internet age, seventy years after it's popularity in radio and film, with each host thinking he was doing the other's accent, but both really just meeting somewhere in the middle.

I think the controversy around Netdecking is actually misplaced anger towards the existence of the established meta itself. I often find most people aren't upset that the opponent copied a Top 8 deck, they are upset that they are playing against the exact same decks over and over again. "Oh look, they're playing Izzet Drakes just like the last 3 guys. How original of them..." Part of the reason Commander is the most popular format is because of the variety in each game (full disclosure I'm for the banning of ubiquitous cards like Sol Ring). I recognize that is harder to design in Standard, but in my opinion the Johnny/Timmy players don't like seeing the same play patterns over and over again, whereas I feel Spikes enjoy being able to read/predict the meta.

Landwalk becomes an issue when it comes on things like Lords and become a blanket effect given to an army.

The problem with protection is not just power level, it's also that protection bundles together a bunch of effects and rules, that are not intuitive.

To be fair, Mark Rosewater made it clear on his blog that after Magic Origins, protection moved from evergreen to deciduous, admittedly very deciduous. So protection was never "gone", and now its future is a little unclear.

I used to have a HUGE problem with net decking. I hated constantly losing to people who just looked up all the best meta cards and slapped them into a deck without putting any thought into it themselves. But I realized after years what I actually hated wasn't the net decking, it was that at standard events I would consistently lose against players that I was a measurably better player than (for example, I performed extremely well in draft compared to standard events) because they had significant disposable income and I was a high school student in a lower middle class family who had to seriously weigh cost of a card when deciding if it should go in a deck, and other than the few good cards I pulled from packs I couldn't play anything worth more than a dollar or two.

Makes me so happy to see all the D&D books on the shelf

So glad you guys put this podcast idea together and are doing it regularly. I hotly anticipate these videos and they are my go-to when I see a new one while at work :). Rock on Kenobi and Prof!

This is hands-down THE BEST intro so far! Twas laughing my arse off the whole time! Top quality stuff xD

This may be one of your best shows. Excellent humor, topics and socks!

I absolutely love the two of you together as a pair. Best. Collaboration. Ever. My two favorite channels combined. Love it.

Proxies. I think this is going to be more and more a heated topic in casual formats. Especially for reserved list cards IE duals and mana rocks It would be interesting to hear both of your takes on them

The professor should have sang:"let's keep stoneforge mistic banned... in modern" gingle

It's awesome being casual where most of this stuff doesn't directly impact me but it's nice to keep up with it all

1:23 So it turns out you _can_ swear on TCC as long as the professor doesn't know what it means lol (according to the FCC anyway)

"The poor man's saffron olive 🤣"

"Your going to give me crap for having taste.." **CANCELED**

Literally the BEST TCC opening in the history of EVER.

in the intro thing with the doomblade, the dies to removal title thing always goes on what usually would be too long, but i love it bc it feels like it's kinda trying to shove itself in your face, and that fits perfectly(in a good way)

I'm so glad Vince called them "tango lands" because that is what I have always called them and therefore it is correct.

Did not expect to see an alternate universe where Kenobi is a professor and prof is a hipster.

I want Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as my commander

This is still my favorite intro. I'll see this video come up and just watch the first bit. GOLD.

The card stock quality is so easy to address. It baffles me that it is still an issue. 22 years of great card stock, and then 4 years of sub-par product shows WOTC has the means and ability to address this issue.

I think my question for planeswalkers as commanders vs only legends is: what makes Karn a more valid choice than Karn?

"YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!" I'm dead 😂

I used to hate net decking. I was like " why wouldn't you just figure out decks yourself, craft it and perfect it through building and trial and error" but eventually I realized not everyone enjoys that aspect of magic. I love building and testing decks, coming up with ideas and putting it together, but some people don't enjoy that part of magic in the same way that some people don't enjoy painting Warhammer models but like to play Warhammer. And that's okay. It doesn't make them a worse player or less real player, they know what they enjoy and they do it.

Wasn't a sub up until now, just a frequent visitor. This piece was FANTASTIC, exceptional discourse between the hosts. Felt like I saw a totally different side to you Prof. Thanks for the great content.

On netdecking: It reminds me of one of my favorite adage's, you have to learn the rules before you can break them. I believe this was respect with to art, but the point is you have to learn how good decks are built and why they are built that way before you shove 49 6cmc creatures in an 80 card deck.

This podcast is an easy listen. Great way to understand mtg culture better- I’m a casual in terms of financial commitment. Also thank you Prof for bringing up fetches again. But you guys shouldn’t be so hesitant to share strong opinions or take control of the conversation for a few minutes. Talk more ‘Merican no british politeness here!

A way to go around duals in the reserved list is to print a better cycle, e.g., Hotter Volcanic Island - "Whenever you play Hotter Volcanic Island scry 1" :)

So I watched your latest two episodes and decided to watch all of them. And so just now decided to use the podcast app which I’ve never looked at even once before to continue watching this series. Granted a lot of it is out of date because. Well you know 2020. But still. Enjoyable to watch.

I think WOTC should leak fake cards. If they did that for a few sets every now and then, no one would be able to trust leaks.

"Your accent is worse than David Tennant." I really died at this moment... no seriously... I am dead. :(

I'm just a complete beginner, but I love watching these videos. They are informative and funny! Thanks guys! 👍

It feels like this video was the inspiration for the price increase video you did. Props to you both, you are very enjoyable to watch, thanks for the content! Subbed to you both!

I feel there is never enough time to talk about all these subjects in depth and it's hard to cover half of them fairly. Loves the video today!

"But not as poor as post-brexit England!" OOF.

Wow, so nice to see you two having clear fun to me.

Listened to this podcast at work, then came back just to see the skit at the beginning. Laughed hard both times! Loved it. Makes me wonder how my friends would imitate me, lol.

Tolarian Community College, great video! Enjoy your Thursday! 💯🙏🙌

So, I subscribed to @PleasantKenobi for about 5:05

Thanks professor you made my drive home enjoyable. I hope to see much more content from you like this. A+

omg omg that card sleeve stretch and then "A plus" , hahahah

Hey, prof. What do you think about situation with judges and judge programm?

I'm watching this now and they've reprinted fetches in MH2 and the prices have only moved halfway through what they should be at :(

I love this podcast, it would be so awesome if there were timestamps on some of these videos to take me through different topics.

Everything in that room except the placement of those pictures is done so well. I wish they were symmetrical.

Honestly, I figure we should still talk about the Reserve List every so often. It helps to remind people why things are the way they are. Plus, keeps the pressure on WotC. The reserve list is a battle of attrition.

I'm 30 minutes in and just realized that they aren't wearing shoes and now I can't stop staring the professors loud ass socks.

That intro was absolutly beautiful, 10/10, would recommend

You two are too good together. These collabs are gold.

Alllowing True Name Nemesis, card which has a mechanic designed for commander, into Legacy was a mistake.

I still feel that hexproof never should've been made and that shroud should've never been retired. Shroud was balanced because not only could your opponents not target it, but neither could you and thus you couldn't buff it up. Meanwhile, hexproof makes a creature untouchable by your opponents yet still allows the controller (and their teammates, when applicable) to buff the creature to be an even larger threat.

When I was younger (1998) I played at a very homebrewcentered shop, and whenever tournament results came out we would take apart any decks we played that were similar to the top decks so we wouldn't be called a netdecker.

It is fascinating to look at this video 3 years later.

About the net decking thing: when you brew you’re own deck there is just a better version out there most the time. I brewed this mono green deck for modern than could pretty consistently get 6 mana on turn 3. Then my friend was like why not play Tron?

"So I should get crap for having taste" OOOOOOOF. Oh god I felt that and I'm not even a fan/anti fan. As for netdecking... as I understand it, using the baking a cookie metaphor you used, the anti netdeckers are not necessarily deriving pleasure from producing the tastiest cookie, but from the process of making *a* cookie at all. It is less about winning the game with an optimized version of whatever deck they are going for and more about the unique ways in which the individual games play out - and playing against the same deck archetype over and over again often results in samey games that doesn't scratch the kind of fun that they are looking for. ... And I can sort of see that. If I entered a tournament and had to play against Tron literally 100 times in a row without being able to change my deck or sideboard, I'd get bored, too, even if I was winning my matches. But I think most of these people have less tolerance for that sort of thing than I do. .... And for commander... I have an Unscythe deck that intentionally doesn't use any creatures. ... I'm fine with it if there's an interesting gimmick or just for fun, but I do raise concerns over several planeswalkers that would need to be outright banned from the format if it was opened up (as opposed to being usable as one of the 99)

Something they didn't mention with the planeswalker talk. You can only have one of any version of a planeswalker on your side of the field at any giving time. Potentially limiting if you play other versions in the deck as well.

That intro was fantastic.

I thought it was Pesant Kenobi when I first heard the name. lol. I mean it matches being the poor man Safron Olive

"If you're not gonna reprint them, ban them!". And that's ho Pioneer was born.

@Protection You can deal with problem strategies without hamhanded mechanics like protection. More lifegain, for example, would temper the red deck they talked about.

@Tolarian Community College We have precedents for PWs as commanders; especially ruled ones: Daretti, Scrap Servant and Nahiri, the Lithomancer.

Okay netdecking would be okay if all it was used for was learning the game, but especially on Arena it has devolved to the point where all it does is neuter the variety of the game down to the three or four best strategies of the day. It makes things unoriginal and repetitive.

Vince needs to work on his California accent. May I suggest watching The Californians on SNL.

That intro was gold. You're both awesome

A topic I have noticed that may be a bit controversial is the use of proxies in games I think this is something i would enjoy hearing a discussion about

I feel like the issue with 'netdecking' is that most people do not correctly define the term. 'Netdecking' is when a player simply finds an entire deck list online and purchases it on a whim. It does not, in any way, imply that the player has done research on the deck, tried to consider strategy for other decks in their own meta, or are trying to find better replacements for cards in their own decks. The term is meant to shame people who do not even attempt to put the time into researching what cards ARE best for their decks, or try to adjust their own decks for their current meta, or try to develop sound strategies. 'Netdeckers" are people that, while not 'unhealthy' for the game, are just boring or inexperienced. Netdecking is also a habit that is more common for players who are newer to the game. The lack of experience relative to the other players at an LGS or among a group of friends may lead a player to netdeck. When a player shows up with a well-built standard/modern/commander deck, most people would make the assumption that the player knows what they are doing, and that they have game experience. However, for those that netdeck, this is often not the case. I have seen a trend with players I've encountered over the years; those with a tendency to netdeck are often lesser experienced, and therefore, are not likely to understand their deck mechanics or play that deck to it's fullest (because they are not the creator of the deck/have little experience playing the game overall). They might end up disliking the way the deck plays and end up regretting their purchase (not every mechanic/color is for everyone). I believe that netdecking is most dangerous to the person who is doing it. Players should take the time to learn the game and get some match experience under their belt BEFORE purchasing decklists they see on the internet. Once a player has a fair amount of general knowledge about the game mechanically, purchasing cards or decklists that seem good (because you put the time and research into the game yourself) is not a bad thing to do. If anything, benefiting off of the shared knowledge pool of the internet is the next step towards improving yourself as a magic player (you can only learn so much on your own; even the pros make plays based off of each other).

You should remove the ability to see through the coffee table; seeing the light in the corner through the table reduces the effect you are adding to the video/room.

OMG, the intro.. simply amazing

From the vault fetch and from the vault shock - with alternate art, so we can preserve OG values, and pack foil values... whilst adding a MASSIVE amount to the supply.

If they reprint duals and remove them from the reserve list then there’s basically no reserve list because the reserve list makes collectors and investors go oh ok cool my card will stay expensive forever but then remove one and there’s basically no reserve list left. I also think that they should just reprint the collectors edition sets and make them commander legal, people who play legacy and vintage already have made their decision whether or not they want them in the deck, also the market will soften up as commander players no longer need OG’s and will buy the new collectors edition, it would keep CEDH cheap and 5c more fun and less pay to win (or pay to die last). It would have less feels bad as removing things from the reserve list while making them much more accessible to collectors, also reprinting or printing new ICE sets and selling them for like £50 a box they’d make loads of money while avoiding a lot of the controversy

Vince is the edgy Torchwood to the Profs wholesome Dr.Who

I use net decks as the backbone of a homebrew. Take 8 Whack Goblins, I have the Bushwhacker cards in my deck, but I added cards like Curse of Stalked Prey to beef up my tokens and Quest for Pure Flame as an alternate win con with Goblin Grenades. So I took a net deck to get the concept but I made it my own by tweaking more than half of it. I've always made decks that way, and I'm pretty content with it.

Demonic Tutor getting reprinted happened after it got off the Reserve List. In March 2002 they got rid of everything from ABUR that was below Rare (that, Sinkhole, Juggernaut, Psionic Blast, Basalt Monolith, Regrowth...) as well as Feroz’s Ban, which somehow got reprinted despite being on the Reserve List. And then they never removed any cards again and it was dumb.

None of these things are really controversial. Should've talked about charging judges money for background checks, promoting cheaters and banning meme lords.

Oh my sweet Kruphix the Prof looks so pale in that black T-shirt

That opening will keep me open for a while, my goodness

omg kenobi fighting his accent is wholesome. such a fun opening bit.

At this moment we knew that the Prof was a brit

Didn't watch it yet, hope the fact that Professor got a common spoiler while Vince got a rare spoiler in CM19 is referenced somewhere Edit: Well, rip

Just wanted to say that I think you two have good chemistry on the show. Keep it up!

I love Dies To Removal, keep it up Professor and PleasantKenobi!

Captain Midnight is a RU-vidr that does video essays, mostly about super hero movies.

The reason Vince can’t review: “Many Magic: the Gathering players axe the question”

I was interested in vehicles since Kaladesh, but as a commander player, they were hard to slot in. But if it weren't for netdecking, I never would've found R/B Pain train in pauper. So not only did I find my entry point to pauper, i was able to use my deck building skills to build a pretty decent Mardu pain/gain train deck! Netdecking is great, really glad I got over that hump.

The intro was amazing.