unironically btmc's arguments are so weird "it should factor in difficulty" already been established that that is straight up impossible "it should scale harsher" absolutely no specifics or anything? what does he mean by this? also it already scales pretty reasonably when the full FC version of that play is *2K PP* why is no one asking WHY the map gives such high pp in the first place? the jumps? the density? i mean...11 miss on something like this is not a lot of misses, i would think a lot of misses is 20 or 30 but whatever the "problem" just seems to be no one actually knows how pp works other than a shift in where some of it scales. the convo about what kind of passes should be worth is confusing too because wouldnt those not change that much at all?? from my understanding this rework would do way more to the cases of high acc shitmiss plays and blunders, thats the reason why willy put emphasis on the concept of missing the middle of a map but otherwise doing well. im not crazy right? that was just irrelevant in the first place?
I understand his point, but when he said that misscounts should be more punishful on a shorter song, but the issue is it usually is. if the song is shorter less notes meaning a miss takes away more acc LOL its proportional to the note count not the song length lmao
btmc already acknowledges how much it was punished (which was 50% of the total pp fc amount). his argument that it should be even harsher as it's a short ass map
@@ventikoi if that's the case then i disagree, short maps , while easily spammable to retry, the skill cap of 12.4 and difficulty curve is too insane and i think btmc didn't really get that imo
@@kurokun07 i also agree. that's mrekk's point on why he disagrees with btmc i also agree with btmc saying that there should be a slope that scales through the length and the amount of misses you get on a map, i think merging both of the main points would've been a good idea on paper
@@ventikoiacc is a huge factor that shows whether you can actually play the map or just mashing/cheesing in order to pass high sr. There should be a fall off with misses, sure, but in the case of high difficulty diffspike short map acc shows a lot more and there is a clear difference between 70-80% pass and a 95% one
@@ventikoi length? why are we talking about combo again? 10 misses on a 10* 1min map should be worth less than 10 misses on a 10* 3 minute map with the same difficulty, why?
I feel like Ed doesn't really understand just how absurd that play is. That map is 2400 for fc, which is OVER 1.5x his current top play (1565). Now imagine taking your own top play and then trying to play maps that are worth 1.5x more than it for an FC. Imagine not only getting a miss count on par with mrekk, but ALSO over 96% accuracy. Mrekk getting 1300 for that play in the rework is a sign that it's working properly; a complete pop off play is actually making it into his top plays.
@@chaniibak7702Your logic does not hold up when you realise the people making the rework also most likely cannot keep up on the same maps you are mentioning too.
@@KiwiKeese that’s not what I mean. I’ve seen his reactions, he underplays the skill needed. I don’t mean it in a way that “you can only judge it if you can play it aswell”
@@chaniibak7702 i dont think he underplays them hes just bored of them. every score u see is a dt speed score on some farm map its just not very interesting.
Isnt it like 70 misses lmao, i mean mania PP system is kinda better i dont think it has combo scaling, its just "oh, u fc, cool" "oh u SSed, das crazy" "missed 24 times but got 98 acc on some hard map? Yeah its better than your SS and FC"
im still standing on business i think bmc just either doesnt understand how hard the actual map is or hes just so used to combo scaling that he is severely undervalues the level of skill to 11 miss that sort of map
yeah, i reckon if it was a 12* map with no mods and it has that much pp with that amount of misscounts people wouldn't care that much about it being worth 1300pp
It's not like mrekk can replicate the score whenever he wants, and also mrekk are the only one that capable of setting the score, there's literally no other passes other than mrekk score. walk this way being 1.3kpp is valid for me, map is literally like 2400pp if fc. getting the 96% acc even though with 11x misses is less likely than getting an 3mod fc on flight of the bumblebee.
basically instead of actually objectively evaluating performance, pp system should be biased towards valuing FC's more than "good passes", even if the latter is actually harder
@@highgaming6444 Come on bro what do you want? Peppy to come to your house and congratulate you? If your not going for high performance plays then you shouldn't expect to be rewarded with performance points. Maybe you can just set cool scores and have fun, but don't expect people to acknowledge it or to become a top player or something.
why dont they just reduce combo scaling impact? that way literally everyone is happy on both sides. People who prefer no combo scaling will be buffed and content with choke scores people who prefer value of FC's and S ranks will also be content
basically what i’m hearing: btmc is stuck on the idea of punishing players for imperfections and missing the point that notes/parts that ARE hit should be rewarded.
I really think the only issue here is that, for some reason, Ed is equating walk this way 3 mod with any other dt farm map that hes used to playing. Its not. Walk this way 3 mod is so batshit crazy that its worth 2400 for an fc. Being worth half that for an 11 miss, when the accuracy is great otherwise (with it being OD11), seems fair to me. I think thered be little to no reaction if Ed were given a lower pp example; like a map that gives 900pp for an fc, and a 10-miss run giving you 450. Thats essentially exactly the metric that walk this way is going by.
Imo there is a diminishing point of return when we talking about the relation of the amount of misses to the difficulty of the map. If say mrekk pull off a 1.3k pp play on a < 2 minutes song with say like, 1x misses, I think it's worth it, but if that 1x misses put on a 5+ minutes song with the same sr, the pp should be reduce quite a bit due to the diff spike will be lower/more consistence.
But for real, a 1.3k with 11 miss on a 2.4k map is make sense without the combo scaling. You can delete every object that he missed on, and nobody except mrekk could hit the rest of it. We just so used to think about combo that when we see a 11 misses we immediately thinking about "missing in the middle" while this rework completely make that irrelevant
the map is literally worth 2400pp for fc, this mean you lose more than 40% of the pp for those 11 misses. lets say for example the map was worth 1300 for fc then mrekks score would only be about 700pp. common bmc L
it's hard to scale well since missing much more on a longer map (30+ misses on 2-4k max combo maps) could be around the same percentage missed on a shorter map like this instance, but if the difficulty is spread throughout the map more evenly it might be easier to get lower miss counts. Death of farm maps?
I have no problem with 11 miss, 96% acc on a 700 max combo map with OD 11 is worth ~50% of the full combo pp. For lower OD that should definitely be lower.
Fewer than 300 objects, 3 misses and half pp (1 miss is 75%) More than 300 less than 500 5 misses ish (2 miss 75%) More than 500 less then 700 8 misses ish (3 miss 75%) etc. This should be fairly cool with how it should work
i really agree with mrekk but at 10:55 i wanna add that this is not where acc comes in. acc should be a pre-requisite for most plays that are worth much.
I agree with ED based on the system. It says if theres more misses then your pp gets dropped so ED is making a good point. I think ED is negating the fact that its not only 12 stars but its 3 mod which already had a pp multiplier which add onto eachother . If it was NM then yea 11 misses would give you fuck all, but DTHDHR would take a 300pp score to 1000 which is very fair, granted the difficulty of the map
I kinda get it. If one song has 400 max and another has 800 max, 1 miss should be punished more on the 400 max song. I think Ed means it should scale on percentages. It's 1/400 misses compared to 1/800.
I get where Mr. Ekk is coming from, but I think the score is slightly inflated and I like the idea of the PP system rewarding mastery over being cracked for a moment. It's like if you were in a battle royale and expected to get the same ELO gains at 7th place just because you hit a trickshot or a nasty flick earlier in the game. Chatting
Basing scores on just the misscount is nonsense. What if i missed 3 times on a slow part and hit everything else but someone missed on hard part and hit everything else. I have 3 misses and he has 1. Is my score less impressive? Imo absolutely not, and that`s the problem with dogshit BTMC opinion.
I'd say if 1% of max combo is misses, pp is cut to 66% 0.5->80 1->66 2->50 3->33 4->20 5->10 The thing I like about the other gamemodes is that combo doesnt really matter, you are just trying to play to the music.
Ok. I got his point(bmc's), but it's dumb as fuck. Basically, if I had same misscount on 5 star map and 12 star map(same length), it should be punished the same way. Because hes says: "Difficulty isnt taking into a count". Like tf?
yall are just hungry for pp and want as much leeway as possible to run away from strict pp system that compliments fc's and punishes mistakes, go forward with this update but don't let it explode the pp in a play that's not worth much currently no matter how good it actually is, it would be diabolical, strive for improvement and full combos
imo, the problem with this is that if the length of the map is not taken into account like in this situation (this one i still think is worth at least 1k), the garbage pp farm maps might become the meta once again
why did bro go on a tirade about high SR passes without even mentioning acc until mrekk brought it up obviously a mashed play is going to have like 90% acc max, and that already loses so much PP
Ignoring the star rating on the map and that buddy here wouldnt even hit 11 notes, this is still such a stupid argument. If Mrekk had combo'd up to the end and then missed 11 times right at the end it wouldve been worth even more than 1300, and this rework would have nerfed the play. He is complaining about a play with so many misses being worth so much pp, but this rework helps with that "problem" because the max possible pp is lower now that combo doesnt matter.
I think the argument that this doesn’t matter is a bit dumb. What should happen when a 3 digit 11 misses a 11 star map?What should happen when a 4 digit 11 misses a 10 star? A 5 digit 11 missing a 9 star? A 6 digit 11 missing a 8 star? This is a case of a really hard map for a persons rank range and getting only a handful of misses, and this applies to a lot of other cases than just a 12 star map I think.
well obviously taking the example of a 5 digit 11 missing a 9 star, which is defo either multi account or cheated cuz no player of that calibre is capable of doing that even if the 11 missed with low acc like mrekk said accuracy should play a huge part in the final amount of pp
@@marekdec8605 i somewhat agree but i also think if the 5 digit can 11 miss a 9 star with good acc then i dont think they should be at that digit at all cuz even some low 3 digits struggle to do that
Bro wtf are you talking about? If a 4 digit 11 misses a 10 star they fucking deserve that pp. Even 4 digits bordering on 3 digit struggle to get those kinds of miss counts on 9 star maps. It's not like allowing yourself to get 11 misses suddenly makes the map any easier.
Ed has the mindset of "fc good, c rank pass bad, ooga booga". The pp system doesn't and shouldn't care about how good the score looks. It purely ranks people by grading how difficult their plays are. If a d rank with no fail is a more difficult play than your top play, it should become your top play. Or only fcs should count. Either one is fine to me, but anything in-between doesn't work. You either compare to other players or compare to the map itself, not a willy nilly mixture of both. We already have a separate score to compare to the map itself. I know Ed is too thickheaded to understand.
@@fekl0416How are you rewarded for not following the rythm? The rework makes accuracy more valuable in respect to combo, so it makes following the rythm more important.
There should be a pp AI system, where the AI analyzes millions of scores and maps and evaluates all of them individually for how much pp they should be worth.
that "AI" will have to learn from somewhere. in this case, it will have to learn from how humans calculate pp, which is what we're doing right now ultimately you're just gonna make a computationally inefficient and inaccurate pp counter
@@nyanzuu My point is that every map is different. A hard map might have a low rating, and an easy one could have a high rating, the computer calculating pp and star ratings doesn't pick up on those nuances that humans find challenging. So that's why in my opinion each map should ideally have its own unique pp system. Of course, this idea practically would never work because AI hallucinates, makes mistakes and glitches. In a perfect world, this could work really great, but with current technology, it’s not realistic at all.
@@meffer you dont seem to understand what you're talking about. an ai is just a tool to replicate repetitive actions that humans do and logically it's not supposed to replace a calculation system. it's like asking an ai chatbot to calculate 1+1 when you have a calculator lying around your "point" suggests that the devs should improve the pp calculation system so that it heavily considers map length. an ai is not needed in this case, as it might predict unfavorable and unfair pp values for a certain play. this will definitely bring uproar in the community
the only use of AI on a pp system would be to analyse and categorize difficulty spikes and sections but I am not sure how viable it is to do that in real time, it would require a lot of computational power probably
@@child-nl1dk There are systems like that for a game called BMS but its an AI estimation for unrated maps on some IRs which is super cool, it doesnt actually give you any rank but it shows how much it would give. The AI would auto calculate how many points you would get from a map on easy or hard gauge depending on clears that were submitted on that map. its super cool. I dont thinnk osu should add it though
