Disqualified Pastors Keep Pulling This SAME Unbiblical Trick 

Yeah. And “above reproach” doesn’t mean “you don’t get to criticize me” like so many of these guys think.

I agree, but there's likely lots of disagreement over what this precisely means/how it is precisely defined. It draws a line, for sure. But where that line exists is going to have some degree of variance depending on who you ask. That isn't to say it's a subjective truth by any means, but it is to say that there is at best a moderate degree of difficulty in coming to a consensus or perfect understanding... even among brothers who are seriously minded and seeking the truth on the matter. Just like nearly every other doctrine where real Christians are prayerfully looking at the same information in the same book asking their same God to guide them into truth, yet still coming to quite drastically different conclusions.

It's sounds more like the Demorats.

@@gray_rain some of the line could probably drawn at the other qualifying factor of having "a good standing in the community". Even the outside world see these pastors as shameful. But at the end of the day a "lead pastor" needs to be on the same level as any other elder. 99% of the time these lead pastors override the wisdom of the other elders. when that happens run.

Just needs to be clarified…

Study what Martin Luther said."Scripture ONLY Scripture." God's word is the only thing you need. All these books to read are not the Bible. The authors put their own twist on Scripture. The only one I liked was Billy Graham. He only talked about Jesus Christ. The Scripture is Jesus Christ. The Apostles only preached Jesus Christ. There are men that call themselves Apostles. There were only 12 including Paul. These nut jobs today will only get you confused.

John MacArthur's Doctrine is unbiblical. He speaks about gifts of the spirit such as healing, speaking in tongues and prophecy as a thing of the past. But the Bible states this specifically in 1 corinthians 13: 8-10 "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. " The perfect is Jesus Christ, God made man, who hasn't arrived for the second time yet. So the partial is still not done away. This is why you need to study the Word. "My people perish for lack of knowledge...." Hosea 4:6. Don't Let the theology of man sway you because their Theatrics, Education and/or Rhetoric sound good. Stay Vigilant and Maranatha!

Look up perfect in Greek, means complete not perfection as we use it. Also look up when that which is perfect “shall come” ek mortentos “ which means bit by bit” what did we receive that is complete but by bit? Ps I’m saying all this off memory right now

@@cole5773 I'm glad you said this. Not perfection but complete. Who is the only one who has been completed into perfection of the body? Jesus as he proved it when he went through walls after the resurrection. What did we receive that is complete bit by bit? Our perfect bodies. When did we receive our perfect bodies? When we started hoping in what was announced in faith. "Bit by bit" means there are things that have to happen before "completion" aka Jesus, comes back. That there's a schedule for the end so that no one deceives us. He literally warns us when the disciples ask him about it in Matthew 24:3

I had the same experience, when I was new Christian I was introduced to Joyce Meyer, and I thought why is she like that with some arrogance , Charles Capp , I forgot the other name from name it claim it teachings and Benny Himm too , I thank God that He removed me from those teaching and was so grateful that led to RC Sproul , Voddie Buckham , Paul Washer and most of the Ligonier ministry

Robert morris sin happened 35 years ago ago! We all better learn to extend the same grace and mercy that God gave the entire world! We will be judged by the same measure! We use James 2:13 “For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.” Galatians 6:1-8 English Standard Version Bear One Another's Burdens 6 Brothers,[a] if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each will have to bear his own load. 6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

@nschlaak "they can be restored to being a member of the body " IF (big IF) they are truly saved, they ARE members of the body. They can never be OUT of the body. There is only ONE body. A local church is not a body. It's just a local assembly of Christians. It's not here a body, there a body, everywhere a body, body. That common idea is NOT Scriptural. " *_There is one body_* and one Spirit - just as you were called to one hope at your calling - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all. " (Eph 4:4-6)

@@Packhorse-bh8qn 1 Corinthians 5:5 deals with the destruction of a person's body. However, I was referring to the body of the local denomination and not the body of Christ.

Agree, however the fact they are being restored contrary to the teachings of the early church just proves we are in the last days, where false prophets, and teachers with proliferate. Jesus did say end time events would get worse, and many will fall away from the Truth before His coming, so in a way these false pastors serve a purpose as proof and a warning to those who are waiting and watching for Jesus return. He is coming very soon, in this generation.

@@nschlaak most of us know this. Some people have to be specific or are simply picky. What you said and intended is obvious.

Precisely! 👌

And money laundering too

Exactly. This is why we are warned about wolves in sheep's clothing. This very thing. Wolves don't become sheep and tares don't become wheat. Enough is enough.

Robert Morris supposedly went through 2 years of restoration with counseling and attending the freedom ministry. Really, it was all of one month then he joined James Robison’s ministry. 2 years after being found molesting a minor, he was made an Elder of Shady Grove church in Texas. Shame on the Shady Grove Leadership! 🤬. This is all in His book.

It is like what the catholic church shifting priests from church to church.

Amen. You, all of you who may read this: you can't win on your own but only by the power of God. It is good to hate the sin, but you must also replace it with something you love. You love Jesus, you love your wife, or the hope for a wife someday, you love your family, and for the sake if these you fight your temptation. Signed a freeman

Where was Lucifer again before falling?

@@narindraramanankasaina2545what’s your point

We're protected from temptation when in Christ, we don't need to wait for heaven.

​@@narindraramanankasaina2545what verse was that from?

BINGO!

Its the only way they know how to make money.

Agreed 💯!

Ditto👍

Yes, they have no skill whatsoever. They are used by Satan to lead people astray and cause people to blaspheme the Name of God. But people love power and worship anyone other than God who has some. I know James MacDonalds sons also got into being pastors. They saw how rich it made their dad.

Yep. And it's because they care more about themselves and their name than they do the name and glory of Christ

I might still be wary of a fallen pastor selling cars

Because they are lazy at the core of it! They want an easy job with a lot of benefits!!!!

Living like the common man does nothing for their ego. That's why they become preachers in the 1 place. Wowing people with great swelling words gives them a buzz that doing humble work like carpentry doesnt.

@@mikemuncy7464These hirelings may think that a pastoral position is easy, or they may want to make it easy, but it is not a cushy position. Preaching funerals, counseling the troubled, dealing with heresy, and having demonic sights set on your position is daunting. Pastors who actually care about their flock and genuinely honor God often work themselves to death. Burnout in ministry is a serious problem. When I was in Bible college we looked at the statistics and I was shocked at how bad it is in the US! 🙏🏼

Nope, those are just the ones we hear about.

I agree with the previous person commenting. I've seen this type of thing play out in smaller/local churches as I don't attend the "mega-church" variety as well. I immediately lose interest when pastors do not utilize Scripture, and when they promote unbiblical views on tithing, etc. Sexual sin is bad, but these other sins by those in the ministry are almost as bad.

I believe the rampant abuse is worse in smaller assemblies. Egotistical leaders who refuse to have deacons because they are afraid that they will vote out a bad pastor. It’s easy for an embittered and disgruntled person to get into ministry and then abuse the flock in order to vent personal rage and frustration. I have witnessed this problem many times, and it is a common issue in the fundamentalist churches. These sorts of men will never submit to elder oversight. It’s also unbiblical. 🙏🏼

Very wise observation!

@@duranbailiff5337 " Egotistical leaders who refuse to have deacons because they are afraid that they will vote out a bad pastor." There is nothing even REMOTELY Scriptural about deacons voting out a pastor. But then, nothing even remotely Scriptural about the common idea of a pastor.

I was thinking the same thing!!

The criteria for the pastors he showed is likely, "fallen from being above reproach," in that they needed to resign from their positions for not meeting that Biblical standard. Anyone is able to research each pastor shown in order to see with more detail how they failed that standard. It's not only adultery that disqualifies a pastor. Are you a fan of Driscoll's?

​@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife if that is the spirit behind what is meant, we wouldn't have any pastors

​@leethomas556 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. - James 3:1

@@crocodile7801 we're talking about the furdics and what we would refer to as new angers and so forth to start with. The list goes on.

The victims are scared for life. Yes we’re new creations when we become Christians but the memories are there always and we bring every thought captive in obedience to Christ empowered by the Holy Spirit

Amen! God’s word is living and active, changes how we think so we think God’s thoughts after Him growing in Christlikeness for that is our desire.

Amen.

So you would have disqualified Peter.

​@@MrWoody6663 Where was that said or implied?

Huh? What does being brehind the pulpit again have to do with repentance??? Repentance is a change of mind Robert morris sin happened 35 years ago ago! We best offer the Same grace and mercy God have all! James 2:13 “For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.” Galatians 6:1-8 English Standard Version Bear One Another's Burdens 6 Brothers,[a] if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each will have to bear his own load. 6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Yeah, Mark Driscoll is one of the biggest offender

@@kevinburke1325 what did he do specifically that was so agregious I can only find quite vague accusations about him. I like watching his sermons so would be interested in knowing.

@user-tq3ud9zi7w if you like his sermons where he attacks men and defends wahmen and feminists, then that's part of the problem right there.

@@WillPower46 he literally buried someone behind Mars Hill after killing them.

The Bible instructs that there are times when capital punishment is required. Read the Book.

@@jeepstergal4043 I believe you misunderstood me. I am agreeing that c.p. IS Biblical.

I agree with you how church discipline is needed to keep law and order in the church. Church discipline is needed to protect the integrity of the church and to protect God's word. Everyone sins, and no one is perfect, but there are certain kinds of sins, infractions, etc that damage a person's role model status in regards to being a pastor, youth minister, elder, deacon, Sunday School teacher, etc. When someone's role model status is compromised in regards to being in a leadership position in a church, they need to be held accountable and removed from that position. There are certain kinds of infractions, sins, etc that warrant never being a pastor ever again. If a pastor molests a child, rapes someone, has sex with an underage teenage girl, etc, they should never work as a pastor ever again for the remainder of their life.

@@bikerboy9010 " Church discipline is needed to protect the integrity of the church and to protect God's word. " That is the PRIMARY purpose. Restoring the sinner is secondary.

​@@kathyhart2309yeah you weren't very clear

What’s the difference?

@@failingdisciple938 A pastor (the same thing as an elder) is one of a group of spiritual overseers in a church, and he must meet the qualifications found in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. Pastor means shepherd. His main job is to take care of the flock (the church), not to preach (but of course he can preach, like I said, and he must be able to teach). A preacher‘s job is to educate, not to oversee the church. And they are not subject to the same qualifications as pastors.

@@rh9626 good answer. Our church has designate roles, though we do call all of them a "pastor" of some kind. 1) Lead Pastor - main preacher, teacher and spiritual care. 2) Associate pastor - organizes small group sessions (aka Bible Study & Fellowship groups) and church wide annual events like VBS and church camp. 3) Teaching pastor - supports the lead pastor in the preaching role. This is a part-time position. 4) Worship pastor - rehearses the musical teams and sings/play with us. 5) Youth pastor - pastors kids grades 6 thru high school. 6) Children's pastor - pastors kids age birth thru 5th grade. I get what you're saying that not every pastor is a preacher, and some of our pastors fit that description. In our church only our Lead, Teaching, and occasionally Youth pastors preach to the whole congregation.

@@sidwhiting665 I believe this is why there are some traditions that hold to the only listed offices in scripture, elder and deacon. The elder would be a pastoral role, so sometimes it would be referred as a shepherd-elder. Then there are those who have different gifts and they minister to the church with those gifts, teachers, children's lessons, nursery, worship music.... but there are only two offices, and no titles or honorary descriptors. Even pastor as a title is shunned in our church.

Preaching is an activity, not a profession or office. It's something any person could do Pastor is a position, an overseer.

Didn't this video just say he used foul language from the pulpit ? Foul language is not good for a pastor.

​@@rg1whiteywins598 So, the elders who God raised up to lead that church, hold him accountable and listened to his sermons every week didn't deem him disqualified from ministry. But, they're wrong and some guy making a RU-vid video is right. And, I guess I missed the verse where foul language (very subjective term) disqualified one from ministry.

So did Martin Luther use foul language. But Mark admits he did somethings not right, but no adultery and some explicit language in the Pulpit about husband and wife relationships, and things like that, but I don't think he ever cursed in the pulpit? I could b wrong.. and I heard him a several occasions in he preaches I am through scripture verse by verse also I think he's charismatic but so is a lot of people..

Peter is mentioned as foul-mouthed in the Bible and chosen to lead the church. Im puzzled my Driscoll’s inclusion in this

Indeed. He was also fighting back against a very liberal group of leaders and community in Washington state. Much of his “anger and hostility” was shear human frustration!

Perfect example with the failure of RCC to demand full accountability. Problem is that just allows past offenders to re-offend. Leadership must have trust, and trust is HARD to regain once it has been lost. Seems like Protestant mega churches are way too lenient when it comes to this "restoration" business. Restore the sinner, yes! But do not restore to the office!

@@sidwhiting665 , AMEN, and well said.

Mmhmm they miss the lifestyle the big money brought.

Not in this case. He adds to scripture and goes outside the bible to make his weak argument.

I agree that Todd is a master communicator but he does not know how to handle the Word of God. If you know the real thing, the counterfeit is painfully obvious.

Misses the mark by miles! Talks dribble and tarradiddle !

​ego

What do you mean by "the church?"

James was my payor for 8 years before I left. I saw the writing on the wall

@@chicagogalsame here. My wife worked for the church and saw many things that did not glorify the Lord

But Todd has gone beyond holding fast to scripture into holding fast to his and early church father's opinions.

Like Romans 11:29

​@@Yelladog78 Romans 11:29 relates to 11:28. The word "For" in 11:29 is the link which makes that clear. Context matters!

@@p-a-m-channel2350 I am well aware context matters lol

Don’t forget power, influence, and prestige. Low self esteem persons often seek positions that elevate themselves from their past. The “I am going to show everyone who I really am. They never understood my full potential.” mentality. Sadly, the ministry is packed with unqualified, ungifted, and self-called pastors. As bad as the problem is stateside, it’s much worse abroad. They are far from oversight and many write bogus reports on their ministries to supporting churches. I have witnessed this firsthand.🙏🏼

I think you are judgemental. You don't know what "their hearts were always after." You don't know even what one fallen pastor was after.

@@drjcw if this person is judgmental, then perhaps it is because Jesus says, "Do not judge only according to appearances, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24 A good rule of thumb I've heard used for this is, "If the pastor lives in the nicest house and drives the nicest cars in the church, odds are he's in it for the money." We are called to be discerning and given gifts to do so. Do not fail to use them due to the old misused of "Judge not," which is all too common.

@sidwhiting665 Sid, all the judgements are by appearance, every single one. We haven't heard the other side. And if my pastor drives a nice car and has a nice house, great for him. It's none of my business. It's none of my business what you drive, and I won't judge you if I see you.

@@drjcw The Bible clearly warns of people like this. ‭Matthew 7:15-16 [15] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. [16] You will recognize them by their fruits.

CEO is accurate.

This happened at one of the churches we went to when I was growing up. It turned my mom off from going to church and we never went back to church at all after that.

Having 1 person over the church is never a good idea, the biblical church had multiple leaders called elders/overseers since Christ is head over the church and the safeguard is unity in Christ along with the qualifications. If the head of the church isn’t Jesus why be a part of it? If there’s 1 guy clearly on top directing where’s the safeguard? It’s that guy which isn’t a very strong safeguard.

@@johno2504 Exactly. The "pastor and his flock, oh, and along with his board of elders who really don't have much to say about anything" model that most follow is completely unscriptural.

@@jesusbeloved3953 WOW 😢 That's not good at all. To be more concerned with çrowd levels and money than righteousness of the leader, Jesus doesn't like that👎

Almost sounds and looks like the people where following the pastor and not Christ.

God likes to teach discernment!

@@kevinholst9231 Exactly! But people are closing their ears to what He is trying to tell them.

@@robindear5043 I totally agree with what you're saying. So many I imagine only want what makes them feel good or is in agreement with how they think NOT what the scriptures teach. I'm in no way perfect as a Christian. But when Christ said "You'll know them by there fruit". It is so true. Take Care!!

Jim Bakker smoothed the way for his comeback by renouncing prosperity preaching. He never seriously addressed the issue of his abnormal personal conduct and people just forgot about that

If God forgave Jimmy Swaggart what right do we have to still keep that against Jimmy...we may not judge....

SWAGGART WAS NEVER RESTORED BY THE ASSEMBLIES OF GOD. HE DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE UP HIS REVENUE. AT THE TIME OF HIS FALL, HE WAS BRINGING IN BETWEEN $95-$105 MILLION PER YEAR. BAKER WENT TO PRISON BECAUSE OF OVER BOOKING ROOMS AT PTL. HE SURROUNDED HIMSELF WITH A LOT OF UNSCRUPULOUS PEOPLE WHO HAD A NEGATIVE INFLUENCE ON HIM. HE WAS NEVER RESTORED TO MINISTER AGAIN, EVEN THOUGH IS REPENTANCE IS BETWEEN HIM AND GOD.

The church should be disbanded nonetheless

This!

Reportedly he resigned from the church, although the Elders should have fired. They were afraid they would hurt his feelings if they fired him. 🤬 But he’s enough of a narcissist, I wouldn’t surprised if he showed up preaching somewhere else. He’s only 62.

@@KansasMiss-mf4bj The elders did not follow the scriptures and that should make everyone leave this church. "Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Matthew 15:14

"It's not a church of Christ, it is of the devil." That would be true even if his morals were pure. He's a false teacher and a blasphemer.

Every Christian should aim at being above reproach. I pray that’s where you’re aiming everyday. As Jesus said “to be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” It’s amazing to me that there are many saints in the Old Testament that lived holier lives than many today who have the Holy Spirit within. I pray we all realize that truth more and more and walk how we are called to by His grace and power.

@@JesusIsESSENTIAL Yes, I try. But I'm not above reproach. I have sinned. I'm not very righteous, though I try to be. God is my righteousness. Not me. And I don't have any righteousness of my own, and need His rest to do anything good. All good I have, proceeds out of Christ. I'm a poet, but my words are lame. I'm an evangelist, but my arguments are weak. However, it is Christ who makes them strong, and works on the hearer's heart. Not me or my craftiness. Like Moses I stutter--in a way, my speech is not normal. But, through God's act and God's work, my words bring back a harvest. Because of my own, they don't have power, unless God works on the hearer's heart.

@@BKNeifert absolutely. Apart from Christ we can do NOTHING. And it’s only by His righteousness that we are made righteous. We have none of our own. BUT, we are still commanded to be holy and He is. There is the sovereignty of God’s righteousness that covers us but there is our responsibility to walk in that righteousness. Those who have been born again WILL walk in that righteousness because He causes us to do it. “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” ‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭36‬:‭26‬-‭27‬ ‭ Yes, we rest in Him and His righteousness but if we truly have His Spirit within us we WILL walk in righteousness. Faith and love to God always produces obedience to His word. God always connects disobedience with hatred to Him and unbelief. So if our faith is genuine, our love and obedience will be as well.

​@@BKNeifertevery single pastor in the world has sinned in the past week brother....

@@Joseph-e9p1x That's not true.

Thought the same. And in a video where he calls out a modern pastor for being angry, he holds up Luther and Calvin. The irony there is hilarious! (Like the video overall, just agreeing with your comment and pointing out a few issues)

The sins that would disqualify a person from leadership are usually referencing qualifications for elders and overseers found in Titus 1:5-9 and I Timothy 3. Many of the things you mention would likely not be above reproach. My question would be what do they do when confronted about these things? If I want to be above reproach, I confess the behavior as soon and repent of it. If I act as if it's not a big deal, then it doesn't seem that I care about being above reproach. We all sin, but how we respond to the sin shows a lot

Your entry seems to be the most scriptural and complete reason to deny one who has gone from the Lord , to return to public post. Yet we aren’t to judge . The so called pastor is held to an even higher standard than we and the Lord will indeed deal with it. Amen

@@marcisaacs9407 this is what the Pharisees said when the Lord spoke to them concerning their hypocrisy The fruit is what speaks for any of us The emphasis must be on the WINE not wineskins

But the bible doesn't say you can't restore a once fallen pastor. Todd reaches beyond the scriptures on this one. Also, what the early church father's say on this is opinion, not scripture. Nothing in the bible says removal is for life.

And with RU-vid ministries!

There's wonder working power in following Kingdom principles on giving and tithing. Hallelujah!

But then, how do you get all that in that period of time? What is it you do please, mind sharing?

It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US and abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus

Big thanks to Ms. Chisty Fiore❤️✨💯May God bless Christy Fiore services,she have changed thousands of lives globally

How can I start this digital market, any guidelines and how can I reach out to her?

Hmmmm…that’s an interesting point. Thank you for bringing that up. 🤔

Had the same thought. Good job holding to the Word.

It's as if everyone has a problem with letting go and letting fail, and even letting die. If a tree dies, can it be made to live again, or is it cut down so another grows in its place? Should it still be used to swing from and build forts in? I know this question isn't the same as whether or not salt can be made salty again, but think about it - early churches formed from the ground up, isn't that the only way a church grows and thrives; from the ground up in Jesua Chirst? Only Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, ans The Life.

The fact that you agree with Driscoll's theology does not mean he teaches sound doctrine. The very fact that he's practicing false doctrine means his theology is polluted. Everybody says their fav pastor preaches sound doctrine, but it's only because they won't truly scrutinize what they're preaching or practicing.

@@theeternalsbeliever1779where is Driscoll preaching false doctrine. I’m genuinely curious for your example.

If you watch the video its clear the point Todd is making. Its nothing to do with the doctrine they are teaching, they can be excellent preachers. But the type of sin they commit that disqualifies them then eliminates the decision of restoring them to the role of pastor as a prudent one. Look at the sin Mark committed, he should be sitting under the leadership of others. Non-christians will look at the church and will rightfully laugh and mock when they see we aren't taking sin seriously and we restore these men to be pastors again

While Driscoll’s sermons tend to be something akin to stand-up Christian comedy, I don’t buy the “kind of sin” argument. Driscoll is still a powerful force for introducing many to Christianity.

⁠@@howardgrominger296how much of his sermons have you watched? In the last two months, I have watched around 20 hours worth of his sermons, mostly from the last two years. He tells jokes, but by no means would I say his sermons are stand up comedy. Humor is a small portions of his sermons. He is very convicting and is blatant about sin and denying one’s flesh and Worshiping God. I have performed stand up comedy on an amateur level so that is why that comparison is a meaningful one for me. Going back to the original commenter and this video, I think the point is that they are not fit to lead due to their behaviors, even if their sermons are righteous. Being a pastor is also about mentoring, caring for, and guiding members of the church. Those behaviors would make one unsuited to complete the full interpersonal role even if you can deliver righteous sermons. Do I agree with not being able to be restored? I don’t. I think if you hold yourself and have others hold you accountable, you can continue being a pastor. I don’t know for sure though. Just my opinion based on my understanding of grace and my personal experience seeing growth in people throughout their lives.

Amen. Todd is making stuff up again.

It doesn’t mean to be sin free but it does mean to live a holy life which is totally possible with the power of the Holy Spirit! If men and women from the Old Testament times could live holy lives even in the midst of a depraved culture (Daniel, Noah, Lot, etc..) how much more so should we today who now have the gift of the Holy Spirit within us to empower us?? Where is our faith today? It’s like we believe the enemies lies that we just can’t live for the Lord in our culture instead of what God’s word so clearly teaches. We must fast and pray and lean upon the Lord and trust in Him and actively put off sin and put on righteousness. To purify ourselves as He is pure. To come out from the world and be separate and touch not the unclean thing! If that means getting rid of tv and things, than do it. “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.” ‭‭James‬ ‭4‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭

@@JesusIsESSENTIAL And how do we put on righteousness? It implies that there is something to put on. Jesus lived a righteous life and ate with sinners, discussed current affairs, and was unafraid of touching the unclean.

@@godswarriors7543 yes, Christ and Christ alone is our righteousness. But that does not negate our responsibility to live holy as He is holy. There is God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. If we have truly been born again, we WILL walk according to His word. Our hearts have been changed, His Spirit now leads us. We are no longer our own but have been bought with a price. It’s no longer we who live but Christ in us. We have transferred our ownership over to Christs Lordship. He is Master and is the most gracious and loving Master we could ever imagine. But as we are now His, we obey His instructions (His Word) and that is the righteousness that we “put on”. We aren’t made righteous in Him and then walk contrary to that righteousness. No, we walk according to it because it is who we now are, all praise and glory to Him.

What's surprising is a "pastor" who is not worthy of pastoring, doesn't recuse himself all together.

What should happen is one should leave it.

Easily misled

What did Lawson do?

Yes! Allowing and overlooking is to become complicit. Yet disallowing true repentance and restoration falls short of gospel hope and power.

He was found to be quick tempered and was investigated by our church elders. There was a disciplinary and restoration plan in place but he decided to resign as it was about to take effect.

@atoll8423 Exactly! These are the ones whose salvation is seriously suspect. Another thing is, when pastors are lax in their devotion to Christ, they make themselves open to all kinds of sins.

@atoll8423 Exactly! These are the ones whose salvation is seriously suspect. Another thing is, when pastors are lax in their devotion to Christ, they make themselves open to all kinds of sins.

Atoll8423. It is just a job for many

But, Todd is going beyond scripture. The bible never says a fallen pastor is disqualified for life.

Was thinking the same thing. Pastors are still human and will make mistakes. Every single person in the bible other than Jesus made mistakes on their service and walk with God. That of course doesn’t mean there isn’t consequences for our actions.

There’s a difference between a momentary lapse on judgment and habitual, perpetual sinful, unchristlike or immoral behavior as a lifestyle.

@@valeriegoldstein3483 I guess the contrasts in the first two Kings of Israel would be a good example. One had a heart from himself and one for God. King David after committing adultery and murder being punished by the taking of their baby was sorry and wept before God. King Saul after being caught not following Gods commandment to wipe out all the Amalekites went to worship God. God got rid of one but not the other. One was only doing it for show and didn't have a personal relationship with God, the other knew God and deeply loved him.

It was a difference of opinion between apostles and it was worked out with Paul's facing it and Peter's agreement. Peter had not abused a person in his flock, he had not molested a child or a woman, he had not stolen church donations or committed fraud of any kind. He had not had an adulterous affair outside of his marriage. Get the point?

That's a good argument. Does the man have actions and behaviors that align with God's will, shepherding the people, and teaching the word? "He who knows what is right and does not do it, for him it is sin." James 4:17. If we hold everything about behaviors, actions, and intentions in absolutes, no man would be qualified for leadership over the church. In what way do we extend grace to our leadership that accepts them as a sinner (James 4:17) and qualifies them as above reproach (1 Timothy 3)? Absolutes are a dangerous frame of mind.

Agreed. And one of the absolutes of humanity is that we all fall short. Redemption is the beautiful part of grace that the church seems to have the hardest time with but is one of the main themes of the bible. Good to keep people accountable while still emphasizing grace and redemption. Also i believe redemption is possible whether the fall happens before or after coming to Christ. Just one of the thoughts i have when we talk about ‘disqualification’. Is anyone truly qualified? I don’t know. Just my thoughts. Cheers!

Thing is, Paul says that _God_ appoints the ministers in His Church, so He has better insight when it comes to who is or isn't qualified than anybody else. The ministers in traditional Christianity are where they are because they either gave themselves those positions or somebody voted on it. Usually, it's because the person installed themselves into those positions. The fact that traditional Christianity has these problems is proof that its churches aren't led by God.

Did he deny him after the church was created or before?

@@cosmictreason2242 it’s relevant to the discussion?

I agree, I haven’t heard anyone say what Driscoll has done to disqualify him.

I haven’t seen anything to disqualify him and he seems to be faithfully preaching to this day.

He repeatedly threatened his elder board when confronted with taking money to promote his book. He used church funds for this. He was abusive and said that he would "destroy" some of them. He also referred to women as " homes for penis's." Vulgarity and spiritual abuse absolutely disqualifies someone from the office of pastor.

Agreed. I don’t know how being mean is the same as committing adultery or other grotesque sins like being a child predator

What pastoral trait does he exhibit? There is a difference between someone who gets behind the pulpit and someone who is a pastor. His teachings are very shallow, and he needs to undergo church discipline for his actions at Mars Hill.

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But Todd is going beyond scripture and making scripture say something it doesn't say.

@@RivendellFellowship Thank you for your comment. Could you elaborate more to explain how Todd is going beyond scripture? A thought I had later after my comment was "Didn't Peter screw up? He denied Jesus 3 times. Did that make him reproachable? Would Peter be disqualified to be a church leader based on what Todd said?" What are your thoughts?

@EyeToob Yes, according to Todd, Peter is forfeit from leadership. Todd is going beyond scripture by saying forfeit forever. Not in the bible. He is also using early church fathers to back his point. Nice opinions are all they are.

But, he isn't. Todd is going beyond scripture. The bible never says a fallen pastor is disqualified for life.

@@RivendellFellowship Look at it carefully with a proper hermeneutic. Either qualified or disqualified. If you’re not beyond reproach which means leading up to (since you’re born again) and during your service then you’re disqualified. Period. You can’t then become beyond reproach again. Just like you can’t be born again- again. You’ll always have a record of reproach. And you’ll never be beyond it. You can still repent and trust Christ and be saved but you’ll always have a record of reproach. And that disqualifies you to shepherd God’s flock. Stop already. Your mindset is complicit in the false teaching problem warned about in every NT book except Philemon. Learn to properly and precisely handle God’s Word.

@jamesmccaughey7754 but you are reading into the reproach is forever. The Scriptures don't say that. No, I am not into a mindset of false teaching. You are the one adding to the scriptures.

@@RivendellFellowship Again you must be beyond reproach before you take office. You can’t fall into reproach and say you’re beyond reproach again after falling into reproach. That is foolish biblically. Do you understand implicit vs explicit? No you clearly do not. Stop looking for a way to embrace sin. That is the practice of sin by definition and places you in reproach. Repent. Your

@jamesmccaughey7754 wrong, you are beyond reproach when you are restored before taking office.

Peter was not restored because never lost his position. Paul only rebuked him for slipping back into the Orthodox Jew mentality. Peter had what we would call a banana peel moment, and he did take the correction well. It wasn't like he did something that was truly scandalous along the lines of what David did by having an affair and murdering the husband to cover it up.