Do Humans Only Have Extrinsic Value? 

The notion that humans have no intrinsic value is often expressed in atheistic talking points such as "we are all nothing more than just clumps of cells." And "there is no such thing as a soul." It can be quite disturbing what this kind of mentality leads to...

It never ceases to amaze me that an athiest can assume intrensic value and not see the clear contridiction to his world view

Contrast this message with those of Yuval Noah Harari or Sam Harris. Which promotes human flourishing? 🤔

Do you have evidence against it? or do you just disregard it because you dont like it?

So what is valuable about us except what we can do for God?

Here's an alternative theory, for your consideration: Humans are “only” extrinsically valuable, but they are a special kind of extrinsic value: They are _required_ for there to be value in the first place-the kinds of deep, rich, and varied value states we see in humans. Most sources of extrinsic value are not required in this way; pizza makes us happy, but if there were no pizza at all (heaven forbid!) there would still be other things that make us happy. This view does nothing to justify slavery, etc., as those atrocities cause horrendous suffering. So why think we have extrinsic value? It has to do with what it _means_ for something to have intrinsic value, which is to be desirable for its own sake. Happiness is like this, and you can tell by the absurdity of the question “Why do you want to be happy?” If you understand what happiness is, you understand why someone wants it. Is it equally absurd to ask “Why do you want [human]?” It doesn’t sound like it. If someone were to want a human, we could sensibly ask why. If someone wanted a bad human, like Hitler, we most certainly would want to know why. We know for sure that happiness is good in and of itself because we experience that goodness directly. Do we experience the goodness of humans directly? It seems not. Certainly our loved ones _cause_ us to be happy, and we cause _them_ to be happy, but that just describes our extrinsic value. And we see not only the goodness of our happiness, but the goodness of the happiness of others, so we are not devaluing humans by seeing them as a "secondary" good. This means that while humans are a means to an end, that end is for their own sake. Again, humans have a special kind of extrinsic value: without humans, there would _be_ no value states of the kind we are discussing. So humans are still valuable in a very primary way.

This is why I am Pro Life Abolitionist. Human Beings have intrinsic value from fertilisation because of the type of substance that we are as image bearers of our Creator. Not a property value because of what we can do as Dr Craig mentioned like a hammer.

It seems that believers only have extrinsic value to their god if he finds them useful. Their god gives gifts of the spirit, hardens hearts, sends lying spirits, uses human sacrifice, church is the bride of Christ and humans were created to worship god. It seems they're only valuable in this gods service, otherwise their god curses, drowns, burns and murders if they're of no use to him. In reality the earth and our universe are indifferent to any species survival, including ours. We have intrinsic value when we choose to give others that value. Our intrinsic value has been growing and getting better statistically as our societies become more fair and empathetic. It has nothing to do with gods and everything to do with us treating each other with value. There is no evidence of it being otherwise. Everyday 20,000 people die from simple hunger, 10,000 of them children. 28,000 a day die from cancer. 52,000 a year die just from the flu in the US. 703,000 people a year die from suicide. If we actually had intrinsic value from an all powerful god, he's doing a terrible job of showing it.

I've listened to WLC for years and I am perplexed at his ability to "dodge" questions and constantly go down "rabbit holes" so whoever is trying to follow him usually falls asleep or forgets what the original question was because he really knows how to do this whole "circle of confusion" that all Calvinists do in order to keep you asking, "what is the point?" WLC is a teacher of FALSE DOCTRINE, just like the Apostle warned about in the NT! Run Away From Calvinist Teaching-It Is From SATAN!

So in the Old Testament, with all its calamity and death, did humans only have extrinsic value to god? It sure looks that way, don't you think? I mean, the Old Testament is certainly not about a loving and merciful god.

How to escape the faith mindset? I know how to do it because I did it. I am a psychologist and I abandoned religion and atheism being honest. To discover God you have to understand it is better for you if God exists. If you could choose how is reality would you prefer God existed or not? and why?. Reality is the only that matters and if God exists it is not going to stop existing believing it doesn't exist. To understand God exists you have to understand reality is eternal because from nothing can not be created something. Nothing is absence of existence. Nothing is what innocent and vulnerable children understand by nothing. Nothing minus something is nothing. Nothing is what you get when you give to ungrateful people. Something always existed. Do you accept something always existed? If you accept reality is eternal you are halfway in your goal to discover God. To escape the faith mindset you have to be open to the possibility of being wrong or deceived. The universe can not be eternal because it is impossible logically the existence of an infinite number of causes and effects, therefore an eternal first uncaused cause that caused what has a beginning of existence must exist. Something eternal and intelligent created the universe. It's fact. It's reality. It's truth. It's what happened. Nothing existed before God because God is eternal. To discover God you have to understand it is impossible to understand God because regardless of when the universe was created God existed always before. Thank you.

Yet, on Craig’s position, the only reason God creates the unsaved is that those who will be saved will get saved. In other words, God uses the unsaved in an instrumental way so as to save those who will be saved. On Craig’s position, God is being cruel and immoral to every unsaved Person He creates.

Cause everytime our families or peers tell us that what you do is what defines you not what inside you. like what's my job or what school did I graduate from is more important than my intrinsic self or value.

Wow less than 5 comments so far? Last time I was this early, it was still "only two weeks to flatten muh curve"